Author Topic: Rigol ds1054z  (Read 17124 times)

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Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2018, 03:53:45 pm »
No manufacturer nor distributor will send you the main board ("central plate" ?) for you to fix it yourself, period.

So stop dreaming.

Just ask Keysight, Tektronix, Siglent and etc, none will allow you to do that, so its not only Rigol.

You must send back the whole oscilloscope back to Tequipment or Rigol, which is we already know that is not possible as the shipping price it self maybe more than the price of the oscilloscope.

Just want you to realize that your rant about Rigol & Tequipment is pointless, it will happened exactly the same again if you buy Keysight, Tektronix or Siglent across border.

We have few Siglent distributors here in this forum, just ask them "publicly" not in private message, if the product is broken when bought cross border, will they send you the main board for you to fix it your self ? I don't think so.


¿Ningún fabricante ni distribuidor le enviará la placa principal ("central plate"?) Para que la solucione usted mismo, punto.

Así que deja de soñar.

Solo pregúntale a Keysight, Tektronix, Siglent y etc.,  ninguno te permitirá hacer eso, así que no es solo Rigol.

Debe devolver todo el osciloscopio a Tequipment o Rigol, que ya sabemos que no es posible, ya que el precio de envío puede ser superior al precio del osciloscopio.

Solo quiero que se dé cuenta de que su diatriba sobre Rigol & Tequipment no tiene sentido, volverá a suceder exactamente lo mismo si compra Keysight, Tektronix o Siglent al otro lado de la frontera.

Tenemos pocos distribuidores de Siglent aquí en este foro, solo pregúnteles "públicamente" no en un mensaje privado, si el producto se rompe cuando se compra a través de la frontera, ¿le enviarán el tablero principal para que lo arregle usted mismo? No lo creo.


BravoV,
1st I think you do not read anything look what I answer Tequipmant. "We can help you with the purchase of a new scope"
2nd if they do not send a PCB, at least they say it, do not turn around asking for images and explanations of the problem and give no idea of what it can be.
3rd when you sell a product and ensure that you have a technical support, at least respect the commitment, and not once you sent the product instead of helping complicas.
4th of the other brands I do not speak, but if I'm not mistaken, Siglent lacked a capacitor to some equipment, according to this link
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1348938/#msg1348938

and 5º if you are not going to contribute ideas of possible failure or how to look for it, and a problem that can make you leave it like this, then do not think about things that are not relevant.


in spanish

BravoV,
1º me parece que vos no lees nada fijate lo que me contesto Tequipmant. "podemos ayurdarlo con la compra de un nuevo alcanze"
2º si no envian una PCB, por lo menos que lo digan, no que den vuelta pidiendome imagenes y explicaciones del problema y no dan ninguna idea de lo que puede ser.
3º  cuando vendes un productos y aseguras que tenes un soporte tecnico, por lo menos respeta el compromiso, y no una vez que enviaste el producto en vez de ayudar complicas.
4º de las otras marcas no hablo, pero si no me equivoco, Siglent le falto un capacitor a unos equipos, segun este link
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1348938/#msg1348938
y 5º si no vas aportar  ideas de posible falla o como buscarla, y problema que puede tarer el dejarlo como esta, entonces no opines cosas que no vienen al caso.
 

Offline imo

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2018, 03:55:42 pm »
I do not own that scope, so I assume the compensation capacitor(s) is in the BNC socket part of the probe.

The 1x range does not use the compensation capacitor(s) (it is used by 10x range only).

The compensation capacitor(s) is a crap and changes with temperature. You showed the temp changed +10C at the BNC connector thus the value of the compensation capacitor(s) too.

The fact 1x has no such issue supports my hypothesis his oscilloscope (the box) is OK.
His probes use a crappy compensation capacitor(s).

Try this:
1. switch the oscilloscope on
2. plug the probes into the connectors, 10x range
3. wait 1hour
4. compensate the probes, such you see the nice picture
5. unplug the probes from the oscilloscope and wait 1hour, do NOT switch the oscilloscope off
6. after 1hour plug the probes (still in 10x range) into the bnc connectors
7. look at the picture - you will see decompensated probes, I bet
8. wait 10 minutes - you will see compensated probes.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:11:56 pm by imo »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2018, 04:05:58 pm »
and 5º if you are not going to contribute ideas of possible failure or how to look for it, and a problem that can make you leave it like this, then do not think about things that are not relevant.

Yes, I will stop, as I give up too, good luck on your quest.

Sí, me detendré, ya que también me rindo, buena suerte en tu búsqueda.

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2018, 04:19:20 pm »
and 5º if you are not going to contribute ideas of possible failure or how to look for it, and a problem that can make you leave it like this, then do not think about things that are not relevant.

Yes, I will stop, as I give up too, good luck on your quest.

Sí, me detendré, ya que también me rindo, buena suerte en tu búsqueda.

Thanks for your opinion and appreciations of the problem.
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2018, 04:29:11 pm »
imo
5. unplug the probes from the oscilloscope and wait 1hour, do NOT switch the oscilloscope off

If I disconnect them and connect them after an hour, the computer continues fine, the error occurs if I turn off the computer for an hour or more.
it is when the equipment cools, that it happens, also in different measures it happens in the four channels.

in spanish
Si las desconecto y las conectos despues de una hora, el equipo sigue bien, el error se produce si apago el equipo por una hora o mas.
es cuando se enfia el equipo, que ocurre, ademas en distintas medidas ocurre en los cuatro canales.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2018, 04:31:18 pm »
One more idea which, from what I have read in the thread, has not been explored yet. Quite unlikely in my opinion, but in the spirit of systematic troubleshooting it may be worth checking:

I assume that all your compensation tests were done using the internal reference signal (1 kHz square wave) of the scope. Is it possible that the probes and input stages of the scope are doing just fine, and that the drift problem is in the reference signal instead?

Not too likely, but this would explain why all four input stages are affected in similar ways. But if you have an external signal generator, or a second oscilloscope, it's a quick test measurement to rule this out. You could also use a computer sound card output to generate a 1 kHz square wave.
 

Offline imo

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2018, 04:40:00 pm »
The compensation is about edges only, thus the rise and fall times of the 1kHz has to drift away.. Less likely I think..

@Adrian: do compensate the probes, do NOT switch the Rigol off, and put the probes into the refrigerator (freezer) for 10 minutes. Then plug the cold probes back into the Rigol.
Tried it with 1x and 10x setting.
What do you see?

Quote
it is when the equipment cools, that it happens, also in different measures it happens in the four channels.

Let us use here in this discussion words "probes" and "Rigol" for clarity.

So when Rigol cools, you loose the compensation?
Does it mean your probes, cool or warm, when connected to a warm Rigol always show good compensation?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:59:35 pm by imo »
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2018, 04:54:41 pm »
I did a measurement test using a RIGOL dg1022u, I do not remember if that was exactly the model, it is owned by a friend. really excellent results X1, X10 one compensated the probes (4).

My friend owns a teltronix, so we also compared the measurements with the tek. They were good, it makes me happy. ;D ;D


I have used their TEK in few occasions in my projects, the RIGOL behaved in the same way. it makes me happy. ;D ;D

We measured the square signal output of 1 kHz from the rigol with the probes of the tek and the rigol (noisier) but for the price ... I'm happy  ;D ;D

probe the probes of the tek, in the rigol under the same parameters, result: the defect continues. I get angry. |O |O

I still do not uncover it, until I know what I'm looking for and where I should look for it.

in spanish

Hice una prueba de medicion usando un RIGOL dg1022u, no recuerdo si era ese exactamente el modelo, es propiedad de un amigo. realmente excelente los resultados X1, X10 una ves compensada las sondas (4).

Mi amigo es propietario de un teltronix, asi que tambien comparamos las medidas con el tek. fueron buenas, me pone contento. ;D ;D


He usado en pocas ocaciones su TEK en mis proyectos,el RIGOL se comporto de la misma manera. me pone contento. ;D ;D

medimos la salida de señal cuadrada de 1 kHz del rigol con las sondas del tek y del rigol (mas ruidosa) pero por el precio... me dejo contento ;D ;D

probe las sondas del tek, en el rigol bajo los mismos parametros, resultado: continua el defecto. me enojo. |O |O

todavia no lo destape, hasta saber que busco y donde lo debo buscar.
 

Offline imo

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2018, 05:03:12 pm »
Ok, you compensated the TEK probes when Rigol was warm.
When you use TEK probes with Rigol, you see bad compensation when Rigol is cold.
After 10 minutes, when Rigol warms up, the TEK probes show good compensation.
Correct?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 05:08:43 pm by imo »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2018, 05:13:11 pm »
The compensation is about edges only, thus the rise and fall times of the 1kHz has to drift away.. Less likely I think..

Yes, the 1 kHz signal would have to develop overshoots or slow rise times. I agree that it's not so likely, and included that disclaimer above. But worth ruling out, to make sure we are not barking up the wrong tree.

Hmm, come to think of it: If the 1kHz signal were messed up, one would expect to observe that at the 1x probe setting too. That's not the case -- so forget about my earlier suggestion.  :-\
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2018, 05:13:46 pm »
Ok, you compensated the TEK probes when Rigol was warm.
When you use TEK probes with Rigol, you see bad compensation when Rigol is cold.
After 10 minutes, when Rigol warms up, the TEK probes show good compensation.
Correct?

if imo, they behave the same as the rigol probes, when I use them in the ds1054z, the BNC connectors of the rigol when they reach more or less at 29ºC (84ºF) are well compensated.


in spanish
si imo, se comportan igual que las sondas del rigol, cuando las uso en el ds1054z, los conectores BNC del rigol cuando llegan mas o menos a los 29ºC (84ºF) quedan bien compesadas.
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2018, 05:24:13 pm »
these are the current temperatures.

ambient temperature at this time 23ºC (73, ºF)
at the ventilator air outlet 29ºC (84ºF)
in bnc connectors without probes connected 32ºC (89,6ºF)

in spanish
estas son las temperaturas actuales.

temperatura ambiente en este momento 23ºC (73,ºF)
en la salida de aire ventilador 29ºC (84ºF)
en los conectores bnc sin sondas conectadas 32ºC (89,6ºF)
 

Offline imo

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2018, 05:24:44 pm »
This DaveJ schematics of the Rigol's front end shows the capacitors under doubt.
Based on the info above, imho, Rigol used a capacitor(s) with a higher temperature coef as allowed in the schematics below..

PS: I would rule out the temperature drifts in the related analog circuitry (opamps/dac/adc, operational points of transistors, etc) as the issues Adrian shows are only signal edge related (AC stuff).
He is not indicating the 1kHz ref signal moves up/down or its amplitude is higher/lower.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 05:49:05 pm by imo »
 

Offline TK

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2018, 05:26:39 pm »
No manufacturer nor distributor will send you the main board ("central plate" ?) for you to fix it yourself, period.
You are completely wrong, I received main boards from OWON 2-3 years ago with a video on how to open the scope and make the repair myself.  It is very cost efficient for manufacturers to do it.
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2018, 05:37:38 pm »
This DaveJ schematics of the Rigol's front end shows the capacitors under doubt.
Based on the info above, imho, Rigol used a capacitor(s) with a higher temperature coef as allowed in the schematics below..

PS: I would rule out the temperature drifts in the related analog circuitry (opamps/dac, operational points of transistors, etc) as the issues Adrian shows are only signal edge related (AC stuff).
He is not indicating the 1kHz ref signal moves up/down or its amplitude is higher/lower.

yes, the reference square signal, does not vary, remains stable.

in spanish

si, la señal de cuadrada de referencia, no varia se mantiene estable.
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2018, 05:43:22 pm »
No manufacturer nor distributor will send you the main board ("central plate" ?) for you to fix it yourself, period.
You are completely wrong, I received main boards from OWON 2-3 years ago with a video on how to open the scope and make the repair myself.  It is very cost efficient for manufacturers to do it.

Thank you for giving me the reason to my request both to rigol and to tequipment that is in my opinion the one that would have to intermediate with rigol, since it has sold more than 1000 rigol ds1054z, according to their statistics and have more than 500 stock.
  there are companies and others are business projects (rigol). The sad thing is that I fell for a bad publicity made by certain people that is not worth mentioning.

Returning to the subject, the use with that failure, in time could become a disaster?

in spanish
gracias por darme la razon a mi pedido tanto a rigol como a tequipment que es a mi entender la que tendria que intermediar con rigol, ya que le lleva vendido mas de 1000 equipos rigol ds1054z, segun sus estadisticas y tienen stock de mas 500.
 hay empresa y otras son proyectos de empresas (rigol). Lo triste es que cai por una mala publicidad hecha por ciertas personas que no vale la pena nombrar.

Volviendo al tema, el uso con esa falla, en el tiempo podria convertirse en un desastre? 
 

Offline imo

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #116 on: May 02, 2018, 05:55:22 pm »
I am starting to doubt in with what I wrote above.
What is the signal path in above schematics with 1x and 10x setting?
I think the 1x goes via the attenuation network (see the schematics above), 10x goes straight.
Am I right??
If yes, then the issue is not in the above circuitry (1x works fine, Adrian wrote).
Somebody has to doublecheck  ::)

After watching Dave's video - the attenuator (with the capacitors under doubt) seems to be used with 10x setting too.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 06:34:17 pm by imo »
 

Offline mbless

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2018, 05:57:58 pm »
Returning to the subject, the use with that failure, in time could become a disaster?

I don't think so. It's just that if there is a large temperature coefficient to the components, it leaves a large range of variability to over/under-compensated signal.
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2018, 06:04:32 pm »
RIGOL people are informed, also pass the link to this topic, depend on them if they want to help. Tequipment already showed that only the dollars are interensan, that I see it well, each one takes care of his hen house

in spanish

la gente de RIGOL esta informada, ademas le pase el link de este tema, dependen de ellos si quieren ayudar. Tequipment ya demostro que solo interensan los dolares, que lo veo bien, cada uno cuida su gallinero
 

Offline imo

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2018, 06:47:59 pm »
The attenuator network (with the capacitors in Q) is used for 500mV..10V/div ranges people say.
@Adrian - is it possible to check your issue when you set the vertical range (while watching the calibration signal quality) outside that range?

For example:
1. 10x Probes (Rigol or TEK) compensated when Rigol is warm
2. with cold Rigol watch the signal below in an available range below 500mV/div or above 10V/div

If the signal with cold Rigol will be compensated properly, than the issue comes from the attenuator network (see the schematics above).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 06:51:40 pm by imo »
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #120 on: May 02, 2018, 07:26:22 pm »
The attenuator network (with the capacitors in Q) is used for 500mV..10V/div ranges people say.
@Adrian - is it possible to check your issue when you set the vertical range (while watching the calibration signal quality) outside that range?

For example:
1. 10x Probes (Rigol or TEK) compensated when Rigol is warm
2. with cold Rigol watch the signal below in an available range below 500mV/div or above 10V/div

If the signal with cold Rigol will be compensated properly, than the issue comes from the attenuator network (see the schematics above).

above 10v decreases, almost imperceptible, below 500mv decompensation increases.

in spanish
por encima de los 10v disminuye, casi impersectible, por debajo de 500mv aumenta la descompensacion.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #121 on: May 02, 2018, 07:40:02 pm »
Thank you for giving me the reason to my request both to rigol and to tequipment that is in my opinion the one that would have to intermediate with rigol, since it has sold more than 1000 rigol ds1054z, according to their statistics and have more than 500 stock.
  there are companies and others are business projects (rigol). The sad thing is that I fell for a bad publicity made by certain people that is not worth mentioning.

I'm not sure of what bad publicity you are claiming victim to, but Tequipment likely would have served you the same as they would a local. The return policy I believe was available to you, in time. I too would have to pay return shipping for service in this case.

So now you are done with Rigol and attempting warranty service?
 

Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #122 on: May 02, 2018, 07:45:19 pm »
There is one thing that I forget to document.

When I turn on the equipment with the X10 probes, after a few hours, these are decompensated.

but if I move the key from X10 to 1, the defect is automatically corrected, without specifying to the oscilloscope that I have changed the key of the probe. CH1> Probe> X1.
Does it automatically detect the change?

in spanish

hay una cosa que me olvide de documentar.

cuando enciendo el equipo con las sondas X10, despues de unas horas, estas se muestran descompensadas.

pero si muevo la tecla de X10 a 1, automaticamente se corrige el defecto,  sin especificarle al osciloscopio de que he cambiado la tecla de la sonda. CH1>Probe>X1.
¿este detecta automaticmente el cambio?



 

Offline TK

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #123 on: May 02, 2018, 07:54:49 pm »
There is one thing that I forget to document.

When I turn on the equipment with the X10 probes, after a few hours, these are decompensated.
Now I am really confused... The X10 probes start uncompensated, then 10 minutes later they get compensated and work correctly, but then after few hours they get uncompensated again?????
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol ds1054z
« Reply #124 on: May 02, 2018, 07:56:21 pm »
above 10v decreases, almost imperceptible, below 500mv decompensation increases.

in spanish
por encima de los 10v disminuye, casi impersectible, por debajo de 500mv aumenta la descompensacion.
I would try hard to see if other V/div settings are affected.

It helps if you haven't got enough amplitude on the display to increase the timebase to obtain a longer displayed period and therefore see the uncompensation better. Then you can adjust at 2 and possibly 5 V/div to examine if the fault is exhibited at those settings.

I also wonder if this PCB has had factory rework and not cleaned properly afterwards.



There is one thing that I forget to document.

When I turn on the equipment with the X10 probes, after a few hours, these are decompensated.

but if I move the key from X10 to 1, the defect is automatically corrected, without specifying to the oscilloscope that I have changed the key of the probe. CH1> Probe> X1.
Does it automatically detect the change?

in spanish

hay una cosa que me olvide de documentar.

cuando enciendo el equipo con las sondas X10, despues de unas horas, estas se muestran descompensadas.

pero si muevo la tecla de X10 a 1, automaticamente se corrige el defecto,  sin especificarle al osciloscopio de que he cambiado la tecla de la sonda. CH1>Probe>X1.
¿este detecta automaticmente el cambio?

Probe compensation can only be performed on 10x + probes. (10, 100, 1000......)
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