EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Repair => Topic started by: s0r0s on June 08, 2015, 06:41:32 pm
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Hi folks!
Recently I got this wonderful piece of equipment for a reasonable price. A miracle didn't happen and unit appeared to be faulty (sold "AS IS").
After boot up VNA shows "LO1-VCO faulty" error. S11(S22) magnitude chart shows just random data, while S12(S21) return almost flat line at 0dbm.
Then I decided to check 10MHz reference output. It looks not bad for me, but i'm not sure if harmonic levels are acceptable.
Next I connected spectrum analyzer to Port1, set VNA to single point measurements and made some observation through VNA's spectrum 300kHz - 4GHz. VNA generates pretty accurate frequency, but amplitude is bouncing like crazy. It's jumping from SA's noise floor to -10dbm. I've attached some screenshots in MAXHOLD and Average modes.
I opened the VNA. While I was wiping dust off the unit I noticed that one of the modules was marked "LO BAD" by someone. It was A130 SYNTHESIZER (p/n 1043.2999.06). I removed and opened this module to find some obvious faults. There was nothing strange besides two resoldered MC100EL33 (deviders by 4) and one strange looking part which I couldn't identify.
Also I tried to boot VNA w/o this module and it did. And it didn't show "LO-VCO faulty" error. But VNA wil not measure anything without this synthesizer (no way!)...
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Follow up about that strange looking part. It has EPCOS logo, I believe. And "122". All external faces (beside one with central contact) of this past are conductive. There is a hole through whole body and the central contact is inserted there. Now this part behaves as a short circuit between central contact and body. There is a rainbow-like discoloration on part's body which makes me suspicious about this part. I suppose it's some sort of fuse/protection device.
Now I'm asking community for any help. Service manual, recommendations how to deal with a fault is highly appreciated.
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That looks like a ceramic filter, which would probably appear at DC to be a short, but at 800MHz or so it acts like a very nice filter or resonator, and probably is the oscillator for the IF stage.
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That's a ceramic resonator, and the discoloration is normal due to copper layer oxidation.
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If you ever get it working, then it's likely you'll throw it out of the window once you discover the delights of its user interface.
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SeanB, eb4fbz Thank you for your hints. These type of devices are called ceramic coaxial resonators. Looks like EPCOS doesn't make them any more.
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A small follow up to this repair project.
So I made extension cables to be able to probe the faulty board on top of the VNA. Found out that it has system power supply of +15V, -15V, +5V, +28V.
Then I took several photos with thermal imaging camera. It helped with finding suspicious regions within VCO AUX can.
Now I'll describe what I found in each can:
1. VCO AUX
RF output of this can has a clean and stable peak of 1010MHz and 10dbm.
There are 2 NE5534 opamps. I think they are dead. The negative supply rail is -14.9V, but the positive one is +25V. And I couldn't find where these 25 volts come from. There are also hot transistors and resistors.
2. VCO LOCAL
It's very similar to VCO SOURCE can. They both have MGA1 module, similar schematic but different topologies.
By default, this VCO generates nothing at RF port. There is a NPN amplifier BCP68 as power supply for MGA1 module. It outputs ~1.6V. I measured the same part in VCO SOURCE can and with the same base (13.5V), collector (14.9V), emitter voltage is 12.7V. So when I applied 12.7V from external power source, I could see a peak of 1668MHz, unstable by frequency and amplitude.
This can has a pair of NE5534 op amps on the back side. The negative supply rail is -2.5V, the positive one is 0V (short with ground). Doesn't sound right.
3. VCO SOURCE.
It has 2 RF ports. The one on the right is 10MHz reference input and used to lock at least VCO SOURCE and VCO AUX output.
The other RF port is used as stimulus generator of VNA (at least at VNA's Port 1). Within sweep region of 1-2GHz it is exactly the same, in other regions (0.3-1GHz and 2-4GHz) signal is mixed (or divided or multiplied). This can also has a pair of NE5534 op amps on the back side. The negative supply rail is -2V, the positive one is 24.6V. Doesn't sound right either, probably are both dead.
4. CANS WITH DIGITAL STUFF
There are many of them. Each can has it's power supply regulator based on BCP68 and I couldn't find any failure.
That's all for now. Still looking for service manual. There are several test points on this board and I wish I could verify them.
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During another day of probing and sniffing, one more dead transistor was found. By replacing this transistor with external power supply I managed to make my VNA work. No more errors. Tested it with filters, antennas. Works like a charm. Now I'm waiting for replacement parts.
I'm also going to replace dying HDD with SSD (Compact Flash based). My unit runs some king of realtime OS, but latest measurement application available from R&S should be run under WinNT/Win2000 environment. I heard that there are come king of unique calibration files available for each unit and I need to copy these files to new SSD. Does anybody know which files I need to copy?
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Is anybody here familiar with HDDs for that not so fresh R&S equipment?
I'd like to replace HDD in my ZVR, but I can't even make a working copy of HDD. My HDD has 2 FAT16 partitions:
1st - 443MB - contatins DOS and firmware (measurement application). Also has Windows 3.1 folder but never boots it;
2nd - 40.3MB - contains iRMX.
As I understand iRMX runs DOS as a process and don't understand why R&S made this so complicated.
I tried Acronis, Norton Ghost, Paragon Partition Manager. All this tools produce a "copy", which my ZVR fails to boot from. The tool by Paragon produces bootable drive, but ZVR doesn't see the partition with DOS and fails to boot into firmware. I can see both partitions by connecting duplicate drive to my PC. Other tools make copies ZVR doesn't understand.
Also I wish I could replace DOS and old firmware with Windows NT (or Win2000) and latest firmware.
If someone has drive images and/or instructions how to work with this drives, it would be very appreciated.
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Somewhat surprising all the other imaging tools couldn't make a copy.
Clonezilla is my tool of choice, and free. Wonder if they put some errors on the drive as a form of copy protection and these tools are "fixing" the error that R&S is looking for.
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SelfImage can clone weird drivesetups/partitions. Had to use it for a HP Digital Sender once. It had 4 or 5 partitions with some unused space between them. If they are cloned with usual software, the DS won't recognise the drive and refuses to boot. :palm:
http://www.pariswells.com/upload/SelfImage-121.zip (http://www.pariswells.com/upload/SelfImage-121.zip)
Some clonesoftware is also able to clone 1:1 with a parameter.
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Thank you a lot! That SelfImage tool really works. I made a copy of original 1.6GB drive to 28GB HDD. When it successfully booted, I made a copy to 8GB Compact Flash card. And it also booted!
Program minimum accomplished.
Looking for ZVR/FSEA/FSEB windows based images to assemble something working for my unit.
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Soros, would you happen to have a copy of that HDD image? I got one with no HDD and have been going insane trying to get this thing to work.
Thank you,
Matt
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Sure! I'll upload it. Stay tuned.
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My ZVR is blocked in " Dowbload LCA "(refer to the photo posted), then I reboot it( turn off and then turn on after a couple of seconds), it pass " Download LCA".
Is there anyone know what the problem is?
thanks advance.
Roger
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Hello S0r0s,
is your unit still working? Were you able to successfully clone the HDD?? I just bought a used ZVR for $3000 USD and want to know your opinion on the unit.
Thanks!!
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Yep, I successfully cloned the hdd with SelfImage tool and replaced HDD with CF card.
I had a bigger plan to upgrade ZVR's OS to WinNT and even add USB support. I couldn't accomplish this goal as I didn't find any image with WinNT.
Still like what I got. It's R&S, I got it for cheap, it came with adventure inside.
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Hey S0r0s,
I have one winNT OS of ZVR, I can't send it to U. But its size is about 300Mbits. :(
contact me by email if your are wanna it, sky2city@163.com
Roger
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Hi PAL,
Is there anybody know how to clone the disk of ZVR?
The HDD of my ZVR is dying and I have to backup and clone it to another HDD.
I had tried "Selfimage" tool running on winXP and "ddrescue" tool running on Ubuntu, without lucky, both is fail. :palm:
the error said "DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER"
So it there anybody have clone the HDD sucessful? and it is so much thanks to whom, tell me the exactly step?
thanks advance.
Roger
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Hi, I managed to do it using a Linux machine and a GUI version of DDrescue see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-fsiq26-well-almost/msg1334106/#msg1334106 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-fsiq26-well-almost/msg1334106/#msg1334106) I think there is something about Win NT disks being put into other versions of windows, they upset something. As well as on my FSIQ, I managed to do the same for my ZVK.
Best of luck,
Ken
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I also did it for my 54846B scope. I removed the disk from the scope,
attached it with a ATA/Sata to USB cable to an USB3 port of my Linux
laptop and did
dd if=/dev/sdc of=A54846B_safety_copy bs=1M with the old disk
and then
dd if=A54846B_safety_copy of= /dev/sdc bs=1M with the "new" disk
USB3 port because it delivers more power. Block size = 1 Meg makes it faster.
The "new" disk had abt. 2 years of service in my old Dell Inspiron.
It was larger than the original of the scope, that did not matter.
I had to do it in a few chunks, since the original disk failed once
it had normal operating temperature. Putting it into the fridge
helped enormously.
( I have once recovered an IBM Death Star SCSI disk in this way,
it needed the deep freezer! :palm: )
Cheers, Gerhard
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Hi, I managed to do it using a Linux machine and a GUI version of DDrescue see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-fsiq26-well-almost/msg1334106/#msg1334106 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-fsiq26-well-almost/msg1334106/#msg1334106) I think there is something about Win NT disks being put into other versions of windows, they upset something. As well as on my FSIQ, I managed to do the same for my ZVK.
Best of luck,
Ken
Hi Kilo Tango，
Do you remember the setting of the GUI version of ddrescue?
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Hmm, I just did it, used default settings. The settings you show look fine.
I think the thing is DDrescue does a bit for bit copy so what you get is the same as it was. If you put the drive in a windows machine then it writes something to the partitions and stops it booting when you refit it.
Ken
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Hi Guys,
I got the solution finally. Thanks all of you.
I will post it later on. Given that the CPU fan sounds terrible, I am worry about it a lot.
I can' t find any Fan to replace it since that is a really old one.
if I can not replace the fan, I may add lubricate oil to reduce the noise from cpu fan.
Roger@2018-06-15
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Old fans usually become noisy due to worn bearings and lubricating doesn’t help much.
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Have an old ZVC which has been sitting far too long in my attic :( , decided to start it up, but now gets some error which seems to be transputer related. Found the following in the logs:
Link job: Error downloading C:\R_S\INSTR\TP\R4_RUN_Z.BTL
Error Code: 00210
API: Transputer timeout: 1805, delay 12000 * 10ms
The factory service manual mentions a test routine "GR_CHECK.EXE" for checking the transputer network - does anyone know where this could be found? does not seem to be on the drive.
or only Rhode service center?
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Hello,
I've have a ZVRL and the HDD seems to have a problem.
Device doesn't boot (stay on boot screen), no error returned, but HDD make some creepy noise...
Does anyone have a disk image for Rohde&Schwarz ZVRL to share?
Thank you
Best regards
Nico
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Same question from me...
has anybody a ZVx disk image to share?
some additional information: The firmware is still for download from R&S's web site, but this seems not to include the operating system., Windows NT4. However, if you get the NT running, it should be possible to install the firmware, according to the documentation that comes with the downloaded archive. here the link:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/lv/firmware/zvx/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/lv/firmware/zvx/)
I will try this approach. If I can get a disk image from a working unit, tof course things would be way easier.
And a link to the service manual:
http://eww.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals&dir=Rohde_Schwarz (http://eww.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals&dir=Rohde_Schwarz)
Best regards, Georg
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Have an old ZVC which has been sitting far too long in my attic :( , decided to start it up, but now gets some error which seems to be transputer related. Found the following in the logs:
Link job: Error downloading C:\R_S\INSTR\TP\R4_RUN_Z.BTL
Error Code: 00210
API: Transputer timeout: 1805, delay 12000 * 10ms
The factory service manual mentions a test routine "GR_CHECK.EXE" for checking the transputer network - does anyone know where this could be found? does not seem to be on the drive.
or only Rhode service center?
did you manage to find that service floppy disk that contains the GR_CHECK.EXE and other troubleshooting routines?
I have a defective FSEA and need the same diskette :palm:
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Same question from me...
has anybody a ZVx disk image to share?
some additional information: The firmware is still for download from R&S's web site, but this seems not to include the operating system., Windows NT4. However, if you get the NT running, it should be possible to install the firmware, according to the documentation that comes with the downloaded archive. here the link:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/lv/firmware/zvx/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/lv/firmware/zvx/)
I will try this approach. If I can get a disk image from a working unit, tof course things would be way easier.
And a link to the service manual:
http://eww.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals&dir=Rohde_Schwarz (http://eww.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals&dir=Rohde_Schwarz)
Best regards, Georg
I just copied / imaged my ZVR HDD drive:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ng4lur59jfkbgiw/AAD5x1PFixUfE111jsNmdgYJa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ng4lur59jfkbgiw/AAD5x1PFixUfE111jsNmdgYJa?dl=0)
Would be great if you could test and verify it :)
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If sombody has some internal pictures of an ZVx, in particular the ETH option card, I would be really interested: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/adding-100mbps-eth-to-an-rs-zvx-network-analyzer/msg2839102/#msg2839102 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/adding-100mbps-eth-to-an-rs-zvx-network-analyzer/msg2839102/#msg2839102)
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@sixitmesseven,
grüezi ... and thanks a lot, you might have brought me much closer to having a working ZVCE on the bench.
It will, however, take some time until I get to try to install it. I am busy with another project (constructing a house...) so most of my electronics stuff is packed away. The ZVCE is anexception, stands on a shelf right behind me, covers removed. If you need any pictures, no problem to shoot them. Even better, send me PM with your Whatsapp, or check your PM.
Georg
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It seems the HDD in my ZVR has failed. It won't respond either inside the ZVR or via IDE adapter on the PC.
I have the image mentioned above. However, if I write it to a CF card via adapter or another IDE hard drive the system still wont boot.
It takes a lot longer to display the "No boot disk found..." error then if I attach no drive but still it fails every time.
I also tried Win32DiskImager, but no luck.
I read two things: One data alignment on the disk and secondly drivers. However I have no experience with windows NT so I'm at a loss of what to try next. There seems to be no Bios integrated in NT 4.0, however some sites are a bit unclear on that. There also seems to be an option to boot into an MS_DOS via floppy but if I do so I get a IDE-CDROM driver not found error |O
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It seems the HDD in my ZVR has failed. It won't respond either inside the ZVR or via IDE adapter on the PC.
I have the image mentioned above. However, if I write it to a CF card via adapter or another IDE hard drive the system still wont boot.
It takes a lot longer to display the "No boot disk found..." error then if I attach no drive but still it fails every time.
I also tried Win32DiskImager, but no luck.
I read two things: One data alignment on the disk and secondly drivers. However I have no experience with windows NT so I'm at a loss of what to try next. There seems to be no Bios integrated in NT 4.0, however some sites are a bit unclear on that. There also seems to be an option to boot into an MS_DOS via floppy but if I do so I get a IDE-CDROM driver not found error |O
I replaced the HDD in my FSEB with CF card without any problem or glitches. ZVR should be no different I assume.
How do you burn the image into the CF card (what software)? I have heard that R&S are very picky about how the image is written into the new drive. I use HDDRawCopy1.10 for all my HDD to CF/SSD upgrades and it has always worked flawlessly on many equipment.
oh, also what adapter are you using? some of them need a 5V supply (those with 40pin IDE connector I think)
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The adapter is a 44pin 2.5 IDE to CF adapter. It seems to work fine with my IDE to USB adapter on the PC so it should in the ZVR.
The unfortunate thing is that I used Win32DiskImager and Easus Backup to make a clone of the HDD. Unfortunatly writing that back to the CF card fails to boot. Now with a defective HDD I'm screwed :(
I tried to boot a MS-DOS from a floppy but so far also no luck.
Another thing is that the ZVR shows "Bios Version 3.3" on startup, however I don't get into the menu. I would really like to check if the CF card is recognized.
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I bet the problem is with the image software that you are using. Can you burn that image with another software? Like the one I mentioned or with
SelfImage-1.2.1? These are softwares that R&S owners have had most success with. They dont manipulate any data and read/write the exact raw image byte by byte. If you read this thread and others, you see R&S owners have had the same problem with several cloning softwares...
I dont think there is any way to get into the BIOS like you do on a regular PC. This is a special secured BIOS by R&S if I am not mistaken. But the BIOS dumps a lot of messages on screen during the boot, so what messages do you get? At which point does it stop? you might be able to figure out if the CF is recognized.
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I bet the problem is with the image software that you are using. Can you burn that image with another software? Like the one I mentioned or with
SelfImage-1.2.1? These are softwares that R&S owners have had most success with. They dont manipulate any data and read/write the exact raw image byte by byte. If you read this thread and others, you see R&S owners have had the same problem with several cloning softwares...
I dont think there is any way to get into the BIOS like you do on a regular PC. This is a special secured BIOS by R&S if I am not mistaken. But the BIOS dumps a lot of messages on screen during the boot, so what messages do you get? At which point does it stop? you might be able to figure out if the CF is recognized.
Well the problem is that I only have the proprietary files from the two cloning softwares and with a dead hdd I have no way to get an original image...
Unless someone would like to share one :) ?
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I bet the problem is with the image software that you are using. Can you burn that image with another software? Like the one I mentioned or with
SelfImage-1.2.1? These are softwares that R&S owners have had most success with. They dont manipulate any data and read/write the exact raw image byte by byte. If you read this thread and others, you see R&S owners have had the same problem with several cloning softwares...
I dont think there is any way to get into the BIOS like you do on a regular PC. This is a special secured BIOS by R&S if I am not mistaken. But the BIOS dumps a lot of messages on screen during the boot, so what messages do you get? At which point does it stop? you might be able to figure out if the CF is recognized.
Well the problem is that I only have the proprietary files from the two cloning softwares and with a dead hdd I have no way to get an original image...
Unless someone would like to share one :) ?
you have probably seen this thread already, but just in case, you may find some useful information or ask the people on this thread about another image of the HDD
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-fsae-30/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-fsae-30/)
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@sixtimesseven
The stuff I downloaded some time ago from your links consists of 2 zip's: one contains a file created with "EasUS_Clone" - useless. The other seems to contain, file by file, the content of the instruments C drive. As I don't know how you created that, I cannot say if files (hidden / system files) are missing. It might be possible to re - create the disk by
- partitioning the new disk (CF or mechanical) using fdisk or whatever other tool
- creating a MBR using the same tool
- marking the first partition as bootable
- formatting the first partition with ??? (probably VFAT)
- copying the a.m. files back into that partition.
As said, that may work, but only if nothing is missing.
What I would do first, if the rotten HD still has some life, connect it to a linux box and copy the whole disk with dd into a file, using the "conv=noerror" directive to continue after read errors. The file can then be mounted as a file system, and analyzed. Maybe with what you already have, and rescue that way, the original content can be reconstructed.
Of course, things would be much easier if somebody had an undamaged image...
And for me (also having a ZVCE with crashed HD, but the old version, 486 CPU / DOS/Windows 3.1) an image of that Version would essentially be a late Christmas gift.
What I learned from the discussion in this forum (various threads) and other sources seems to be:
1) First make sure, that your replacement disk (be it CF or a real HD) is recognized by your instrument. Boot DOS from a Floppy, and see if Drive C is present.
2) If you own any R&S instrument from that time (ZVxy, FSEx, FSIQ, probably others) back up the HD TODAY. The question is not if it will fail, only when. These disks are way beyond there expected life, have thousands of hours on them, or years of sitting around unused. I don't know, what is worse.
3) it is possible to replace the original HD with a CF in an adaptor, but not every CF and every adaptor will work.
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@sixtimesseven
The stuff I downloaded some time ago from your links consists of 2 zip's: one contains a file created with "EasUS_Clone" - useless.
EaseUS's clone features worked fine for me for XP and up. But to be fair so does pretty much every recent cloning software.
@sixtimesseven
1) First make sure, that your replacement disk (be it CF or a real HD) is recognized by your instrument. Boot DOS from a Floppy, and see if Drive C is present.
What kind of DOS do I need? I tried some MS-DOS 5 and MS_DOS images on Floppy from some random sites but they did not boot or resulted in errors like missing CDROM driver.
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Update, I managed to boot a floppy with DOS 5.0 http://www.me.umn.edu/courses/me2011/arduino/stamp/technotes/dosboot/ (http://www.me.umn.edu/courses/me2011/arduino/stamp/technotes/dosboot/)
It wouldn't at first and report no disk error but after several retries / enters it seems to work now.
Anyway, how do I find attached devices now?
DOS references I found so far only talk about doing stuff on the current drive, eg: https://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/list-of-useful-and-frequently-used-dos-commands-317 :-// (https://www.tipsandtricks-hq.com/list-of-useful-and-frequently-used-dos-commands-317 :-//)
I also got MS-DOS 6.22 to run and with it the "scandisk /all" comand. However, it will only check the floppy disk "A:" and no mention of any other i
However, I also get a strange driver error during the DOS boot process. Some CDROM Driver for device "BANANA" is not found... Might that be the CF-Card? Nevermind, shows up even if nothing is inserted in the ide slot.
Found this little program: https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=59932 (https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=59932)
It identifies the both the SANDisk 64GB as well as the Transcent 8GB CF cards as tow ide drives.
Drive 1 is reported to be about 1600MB large and should be the RS image. The second returns an error and no information is displayed, I guess because it is not implemented as a partition.
So, the CF card and the boot partition is there. Why does it not boot? I tried the Windows NT 4.0 Workstation files I found on the web, wrote them to three disks and tried to run the -R repair option but it does not find any drives / installations to repair... >:(
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you must use a DOS that does not come with CDROM support. This thing cannot recognize a CDROM driver but it is defined in the config.sys and autoexec.bat. BANANA refers to a default CDROM device. You can check the config.sys and autoexec.bat and remove all reference to the cdrom
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Here are the screens from the ideinfo.exe program.
They are def. recognized as ide drives but still unable to boot.
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so did you finally boot to DOS?
why is it saying found 2 hard drives? on FSEB, which has the exact same structure as ZVR, I remember it had 2 partitions (one big ~ 440MB and one small ~ 43MB) plus a big unallocated space and only shows one hard drive. My clone software copied the exact same structure including the unallocated space on the new drive.
I still think your problem is with the way the image was made. R&S is very fussy about that perhaps because of that RMX (or DOSRMX ?) crap which I never understood how it works...
one crazy suggestion, make a clone of FSEA or FSEB image (you can find it on the forum) and boot your ZVR, it will complain but since the basic OS is there it will boot to something first before complaining I guess.
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so did you finally boot to DOS?
Yes, I used a new floppy and pressed enter several times to retry booting and now it works every time...
why is it saying found 2 hard drives? on FSEB, which has the exact same structure as ZVR, I remember it had 2 partitions (one big ~ 440MB and one small ~ 43MB) plus a big unallocated space and only shows one hard drive. My clone software copied the exact same structure including the unallocated space on the new drive.
No idea why it found two drives. maybe because there is empty space on the disk? Or it found the floppy drive as well?
When I cloned it I saw only one partition (about 2000MB) on the drive, nothing else. Unless it was somehow hidden...
one crazy suggestion, make a clone of FSEA or FSEB image (you can find it on the forum) and boot your ZVR, it will complain but since the basic OS is there it will boot to something first before complaining I guess.
Hmm I will try that next. Do you remember in which thread that was in?
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@analogRF
good idea (FSEA image). That should give a drive with a bootable OS, onto which he can copy the ZVR files he has. Might be a way.
another idea: run FDISK from the DOS Floppy, check if the partition with the OS is bootable. You also can use FDISK to write a MBR, in case that does not exist or is damaged.
Third idea: Apparently it is possible to boot from Floppy. Instead of using DOS, boot from the (set of 3) NT4 installation diskettes. Then install The OS on your CF, letting the NT4 setup do all the work - including partitioning and formatting. What you will need is an IDE CD drive, and an adaptor to connect both the CD and CF to the one IDE the instrument has.
In case you don't find these diskette's images on the net, I have them - It just will take some time until I can read them. None of my computers has a floppy drive anymore...
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good idea (FSEA image). That should give a drive with a bootable OS, onto which he can copy the ZVR files he has. Might be a way.
Agreed
another idea: run FDISK from the DOS Floppy, check if the partition with the OS is bootable. You also can use FDISK to write a MBR, in case that does not exist or is damaged.
I did run FDISK but it only finds the floppy disk A ... I don't see how I could chang into the CF card disk
Third idea: Apparently it is possible to boot from Floppy. Instead of using DOS, boot from the (set of 3) NT4 installation diskettes. Then install The OS on your CF, letting the NT4 setup do all the work - including partitioning and formatting. What you will need is an IDE CD drive, and an adaptor to connect both the CD and CF to the one IDE the instrument has.
In case you don't find these diskette's images on the net, I have them - It just will take some time until I can read them. None of my computers has a floppy drive anymore...
I have found windows nt 4 installation images for floppy disks https://winworldpc.com/download/879e10c1-b7ac-11e7-b8e6-fa163e9022f0 (https://winworldpc.com/download/879e10c1-b7ac-11e7-b8e6-fa163e9022f0)
Installation will start but the installer only finds a IDE CDROM drive and no IDE disk onto which I could intall NT. Same for the -R repair option :(
As I have written above. The CF card seems to be recognizable because if I boot with the DOS 6.22 floppy and run IDEINFO.exe I get the correct information. However, everything else does not find the card...
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No idea why it found two drives. maybe because there is empty space on the disk? Or it found the floppy drive as well?
When I cloned it I saw only one partition (about 2000MB) on the drive, nothing else. Unless it was somehow hidden...
i think that might be the problem, if the clone software works correctly, you must have two partitions, one of them has winnt and the other
has this RMX stuff on it. if it didn't recognize two partitons, then something is not right in my opinion
installing standalone NT and then trying to install R&S software does not work. cannot say why but it just doesn't
however if you boot to FSEB and then try to copy the zvr files, it might work. at least you will find out that your cf card boots and
all you need is a good image of the hdd
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i am uploading fseb30 image, give me a few minutes...
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this is FSEB30 image created by HDDRawCopy1.10
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j63qeolkqukwe7h/FSEB30.img?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j63qeolkqukwe7h/FSEB30.img?dl=0)
I have cloned HDD on a transcend CF card with this couple of times for FSEA and FSEB myself
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this is FSEB30 image created by HDDRawCopy1.10
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j63qeolkqukwe7h/FSEB30.img?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j63qeolkqukwe7h/FSEB30.img?dl=0)
I have cloned HDD on a transcend CF card with this couple of times for FSEA and FSEB myself
I formatted the CF disk and then wrote the image back to the CF card with the HDDRawCopy1.10.
Unfortunately I still get a no boot disk error :(
I will get a 100GB 2.5" HDD, maybe that one should work.
I had another look at the HDD copies and clones from the original HDD. There is def. only one partition. However, the hdd that was in the zvr was not the original one so maybe somone has done something already.
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mmm...that's strange, I was confident that the instrument should at least start booting... I would suggest you check all the connections, check the adapter and more importantly check connectivity between the adapter pins and the motherboard when it is attached. how about an SSD, do have an SSD on hand to try?
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Well yes I do have an ssd und multiple hdd's here, unfortunately they are all SATA devices. I have some 3.5" 4-pin IDE's as well but not really a sensible way of attaching them to the 44pin connector of the ZVR.
Connections to the CF card should be good. Otherwise the CF card would most likely not report via the ideinfo tool.
I will get a suitable 44pin disk tomorrow evening and report back.
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Interestingly I got into the BIOS with a combination ctrl+alt+esc at power up. So it has a BIOS and it is not really protected.
I might be wrong but I don't think the CF card is detected though.
This leaves the question why I do see it via the dos tools... Is it possible the bios does not support some features which the dos does out of the box? Or do I have to change some settings?
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You write that the NT4 installer does not see a HD, but a CDROM. a CDROM is a "removable device", so this might be an indication that your CF card or the adaptor don't get recognized as fixed disk, but as removable - and the bios does not boot from these (except Floppys).
I don't know which brand / model of CF you are using (if I have just overlooked in one of your posts, I apologize), but I suggest you try to get exactly the same for which other people report success.
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You write that the NT4 installer does not see a HD, but a CDROM. a CDROM is a "removable device", so this might be an indication that your CF card or the adaptor don't get recognized as fixed disk, but as removable - and the bios does not boot from these (except Floppys).
I don't know which brand / model of CF you are using (if I have just overlooked in one of your posts, I apologize), but I suggest you try to get exactly the same for which other people report success.
I first tried a SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB CF card from a camera. Did not work, but I suspected it wouldn't.
Then I read on a different forum that apparently the Trancendent 133x series reports as fixed devices, so I ordered a 8GB card.
How would I check exactly? I did some googeling before but I have not found a way to reliably read the fixed/removable bit from the CF card. And on the PC the card in the adapter shows up like a fixed disk would in the partition manager for example. In ubuntu it reports as /dev/sdx and not hdx but apparently thats the way on new linux distributions now... So I really don't know how to check :(
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The BIOS does not detect a HD, and apparently the BIOS does not support CDROMs. The NT4 setup, however, installs drivers for CDROM, and might see the CF as such. The same is probably true for the DOS 6.22
The CF behaving as a removable medium also explains why you don't see the 2 partitions. CD's don't have partitions.
Anyway, it is extremely important that you found out how to get into the BIOS. This helps a lot. If any Disk (CF or HD) is plugged into the instrument, it must be seen by the BIOS, otherwise it will never boot. And the BIOS does not care if the disk is partitioned or formatted, it detects a brand new, virgin disk on a hardware level.
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I read somewhere that it also might be the adaptor. Some of them apparently report everything as removable.
Another idea: plug in the (failed) hard disk and start the BIOS again. Then we at least know how the BIOS screens look when it detects a HD For any future combinatoin of CF / Adaptor this gives a quick way to see if the disk is detected, without booting anything, and before writing anything onto the CF.. If the disk is still electrically alive and just has bad sectors, this should work.
"on the PC" - how is the CF connected to the PC? with the same adaptor, to a hardware IDE port on the mainboard? dto, but via a USB/IDE converter? or with a USB to CF / SD / other adaptor? It depends on these devices' drivers how your OS reports the CF. I would only beleive the first variant, directly to hardware IDE on the mainboard of an old PC.
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I tried the 64GB card just for fun and the "auto hdd disk" tool of the bios detects it :) :) :)
It suggests "2" for the primary master. However, no luck. Not with my clone, not with the spectrum analyzer image, not with any of the numbers 1-3 (rest set to "N") ... :rant:
In another menu I noticed something else. There is a boot order option which is set to "C A SCSI"
Is it certain that the cloned partition gets the drive letter C? I know that this is the case for modern Win OS but on NT 4?
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I read somewhere that it also might be the adaptor. Some of them apparently report everything as removable.
Another idea: plug in the (failed) hard disk and start the BIOS again. Then we at least know how the BIOS screens look when it detects a HD For any future combinatoin of CF / Adaptor this gives a quick way to see if the disk is detected, without booting anything, and before writing anything onto the CF.. If the disk is still electrically alive and just has bad sectors, this should work.
"on the PC" - how is the CF connected to the PC? with the same adaptor, to a hardware IDE port on the mainboard? dto, but via a USB/IDE converter? or with a USB to CF / SD / other adaptor? It depends on these devices' drivers how your OS reports the CF. I would only beleive the first variant, directly to hardware IDE on the mainboard of an old PC.
The disk is connected via a IDE to usb adapter. You are right, with a CF to USB adapter the card reports always as removable.
Unfortunatly the disk is totaly dead. It spins but it won't show up anywhere.
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And the IDE to USB adapter probably reports everything as HD.
But I think, you are an important step further: The 64 GB Cf is recognized by the BIOS as HD. But that only means, the BIOS communicates on a very low level with the CF's "controller". Nothing said about partitions, drives, etc.
Next step: boot DOS and look if FDISK also recognizes it. A DOS fdisk might report less than 64 GB, I think there was a 32 GB limit at the time, or even lower. Also, boot the NT4 install disks, see if the installer sees the disk and it's partitions.
If I remember correctly, these old OSses only recognized 4 primary partitions, no logical ones, and assigned drive letters to them in the order it found the partitions on the disk.
I still suppose that the CF has no master boot record, or no partition is marked as bootable. About what should happen in the NT boot process, see https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/nt-boot-process (https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/nt-boot-process)
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I tried to insert a 100GB 2.5" HDD which I got today. Unfortunatly the bios won't even recognize it :--
It works on my PC so it's probably just too big.
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Today was my lucky day.
I started tinkering with old HD's, and wanted to find out in how far they behave different than my CF's, hoping to step onto something that might help sixtimesseven (and later myself, as I also have a ZVCE with rotten HD.)
Without much hope, I also connected the VNA's disk to the USB / ATA aqdapter.....
.... and instead of emitting click ... click ... click noises, like several times before, the damn thing spun up, got mounted and the two partitions popped up!
I could make a complete disk copy with dd, and file by file copies of the 2 partitions. Everything is packed in a zip archive, and can be downloaded here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/95ggozdptolvj13/zvce.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/95ggozdptolvj13/zvce.zip?dl=0)
Caution: Mine is an "old" instrument, with 486 CPU and DOS / RTOS as an operating system, not NT4
amendment: later I tried another full copy, this time without the "noerror" directive in dd, so that it would have stopped on a read error. The copy went through, so I have some hope that the ffile is without errors.
2nd amendment: I copied again with ddrescue. reported 0 errors. I am nearly convinced to have a good image.
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Today was my lucky day.
I started tinkering with old HD's, and wanted to find out in how far they behave different than my CF's, hoping to step onto something that might help sixtimesseven (and later myself, as I also have a ZVCE with rotten HD.)
Without much hope, I also connected the VNA's disk to the USB / ATA aqdapter.....
.... and instead of emitting click ... click ... click noises, like several times before, the damn thing spun up, got mounted and the two partitions popped up!
I could make a complete disk copy with dd, and file by file copies of the 2 partitions. Everything is packed in a zip archive, and can be downloaded here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/95ggozdptolvj13/zvce.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/95ggozdptolvj13/zvce.zip?dl=0)
Caution: Mine is an "old" instrument, with 486 CPU and DOS / RTOS as an operating system, not NT4
amendment: later I tried another full copy, this time without the "noerror" directive in dd, so that it would have stopped on a read error. The copy went through, so I have some hope that the ffile is without errors.
2nd amendment: I copied again with ddrescue. reported 0 errors. I am nearly convinced to have a good image.
Hi Georg
Nice, thank you. Maybe it will work on the newer NT machine as well. I will try.
Unfortunatly I first have to get a <30GB drive which will be detected by the BIOS :(
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2 more ideas::
ATA flash modules, DOM modules as describend here: http://www.bymm.de/documents/53/FSE_Harddisk_Replacement_V1.pdf (http://www.bymm.de/documents/53/FSE_Harddisk_Replacement_V1.pdf). They are available from Reichelt.
an adaptor PATA to SD card like this: https://www.ebay.com/p/1670164290 (https://www.ebay.com/p/1670164290)
As the ATA interface and that of an SD card are quite different, the adapters contain a microcontroller that implements the ATA protocoll. They are designed to replace the HD in old notebooks, so they always behave as a fxed disk, not a removable one. I did not try it, but I certainly will. they are cheap enough...
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I still believe the CF card should work, I have replaced HDD with CF on numerous old HP and R&S instruments with various old operating systems (from DOS to Win) and it has always worked. Maybe the size matters ;) I dont remember ever using any CF greater than 8GB and always used transcend, brand new "not formatted" blank card and wrote the HDD image to it by HDDRawCopy1.10 or SelfImage
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@analogRF
I agree with you, it should work.
There have been several reports of people using them successfully, but there are others about serious difficulties, like presently those of sixtimesseven. Could you post, which models you exactly used, and which adapter? While most adapters are passive, just wiring the 2 different connectors together there seem to be ones that "do something" and always present a fixed disk to the ATA port. The SYBA adapter might be such a beast.
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for adapter I used something identical to this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-44-Pin-Male-to-CF-Compact-Flash-Male-Adapter-Connector-Z9N3-9C-K8S5/123755432456?epid=725184263&hash=item1cd0660a08:g:8PgAAOSwYMldXRiX (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-44-Pin-Male-to-CF-Compact-Flash-Male-Adapter-Connector-Z9N3-9C-K8S5/123755432456?epid=725184263&hash=item1cd0660a08:g:8PgAAOSwYMldXRiX)
for 2.5" HDD replacement (44 pin) and whenever I needed 40 pin IDE for 3.5" HDD, I used this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Flash-CF-to-3-5-Female-40-Pin-IDE-Bootable-Adapter-Converter-SD-TEUS/123416007408?hash=item1cbc2ad2f0:g:eL8AAOSwK6RZEiBt (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Compact-Flash-CF-to-3-5-Female-40-Pin-IDE-Bootable-Adapter-Converter-SD-TEUS/123416007408?hash=item1cbc2ad2f0:g:eL8AAOSwK6RZEiBt)
for CF card I always used 133X Transcend 4GB or 8GB from China. When I burn image for cloning, I never format the disk first. Actually, come to think of it, I don't know if they come formatted out of the box or not but I dont format before burning the image to it. Not sure if that makes any difference though
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Thanks.
These adapters are obviously passive, there is nothing on the board except the connectors, a master/slave jumper, a few decoupling caps and on the second one a power connector as that's not available in the 40 pin ATA.
I will check the "preformated" issue, I have 3 different brand newTranscend 8 GB CF's here, bought from different sources. Anyway, it should not matter, formatting is nothing more than writing the basic structure of a file system onto the disk, and that all get's overwritten if you bytewise write an image to the disk.
I am preparing a writeup that collects the information scattered around on the net, and that will contain a table of "known good" CF / adapter combinations. I'll publish that in a while, most likely on a new thread here on EEVblog.
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Ok, I'll be dammed
It seems like it was the cf ADAPTER |O |O |O
I ordered a 44pin extension cable (because I got tiered of pulling the cpu board out) and added another CF card reader just because - new adapter crappier build quality and less components. And it works!!!
It was really surprising since the first adaper worked and I could write and read to the CF card via the USB to IDE adapter :palm:
Anyway, first I had the old ZVR firmware on there which Ghieber shared from his ZVR ... It started booting but failed eventually. Then I formated the 8GB card and restored with EaseUs and it works just fine :wtf:
I also tried the other 64GB SanDisk card. Works as well...
Thank you all for your help! Please find the pictures of the cards and adapters below. I also updated the Dropbox folder https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gfgs2enykqh2scc/AACPaUPcZGZYzxkGzZBC2EwUa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gfgs2enykqh2scc/AACPaUPcZGZYzxkGzZBC2EwUa?dl=0) and added a image made with the "HDD Raw Copy Tool v1.10" from the 8GB Trancend Card in addition to the others. It should stay up for a long time but if you have another idea where to place it feel free to downoad and host it somwhere else :)
Please find pictures of the cards and adapters below.
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP!
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I am preparing a writeup that collects the information scattered around on the net, and that will contain a table of "known good" CF / adapter combinations. I'll publish that in a while, most likely on a new thread here on EEVblog.
Please do that!
I read somwhere that the limiting factor for CF cards on IDE is the IDE interface and not the cards. But I cannot find that reference at the moment.
It would be interesting to test if it increases boot speed, how much and if there are improvements apart from the boot speed in terms of usability (zvr seems already pretty quick to me).
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happy to hear that you got it working :D
that crappy adapter is exactly what I have been using on numerous occasions like this on HP and R&S gear... by default they are set on being master and it should stay that way. Maybe your original one was set on slave? just a thought...
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I am preparing a writeup that collects the information scattered around on the net, and that will contain a table of "known good" CF / adapter combinations. I'll publish that in a while, most likely on a new thread here on EEVblog.
Please do that!
I read somwhere that the limiting factor for CF cards on IDE is the IDE interface and not the cards. But I cannot find that reference at the moment.
It would be interesting to test if it increases boot speed, how much and if there are improvements apart from the boot speed in terms of usability (zvr seems already pretty quick to me).
dont get your hopes up on boot speed. The boot time does not change noticeably because (1) these R&S instruments must upload a lot of crap into different boards (transputers) and that is the main bottleneck for boot time (2) for read/write from/to the drive you are very limited by the motherboard interface (IDE or whatever it is) so the speed increase is very small. Its not like when you replace an IDE HDD with a SATA SSD
For example when I replaced the HDD with CF on Agilent 54845A scope (Win98 and an old AMD K6 standard PC motherboard) the boot time decreased hardly by 10% or less I would say...
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happy to hear that you got it working :D
that crappy adapter is exactly what I have been using on numerous occasions like this on HP and R&S gear... by default they are set on being master and it should stay that way. Maybe your original one was set on slave? just a thought...
Hmm I don't think so. I did not change anything. But I did try the other jumper position and it would not work either.
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I don't care much about boot time. If that goes down, it's the icing on the cake, not more. The reason to throw out the HD's in these instruments and replace them with something else is to get rid of them before they fail, which sure as hell they will do some day, taking the OS, software, and, most important, factory calibration data of your individual instrument with them into digital nirvana.
Anyway, sixtimesseven, congratulations! I really felt sorry seeing you get more desperate from post to post, and am happy that it finally was a piece of shitty hardware and not something fundamental.
If anybody has more information, what works and what not, let me know. I will be travelling the next 2+ weeks, but thereafter I want to finish and publish what I collected.
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Hi
I have a ZVK in which the front panel doesn't work. On remote the instrument responds. I saw the Operating and Service manual, but could not find the parts list. Anyone having the parts list, please share.
Regards
T N Ramesh
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nearly a year after the last posts (including mine) I am finally in the hot phase of my ZVCE's repair. The "preliminaries" which cost me a lot of time were repairing the power supply, which was not only faulty, but literally destroyed. It consists of a main board and 3 subassemblies, and each of them had a fault - independent from each other. The only explanation is that it was sitting in a repair shop, used as a source of spares. The broken parts went back into the case.
Now the unit is booting from a CF, DOS and RTOS are coming up, then it reports "booting Transputers" and hangs. It writes log files onto the hard disk (i.e. the CF), confirming that there is a problem with transputer(s) - timing out. Unfortunately, no more information. Possible causes are, according to the service manual, software, the CPU board, the graphics board and the Measurement Control Unit or MCU board. These are the only ones that have transputers on them.
I swapped the CPU and Graphics with boards from a FSEK spectrum analyzer, which are identical. Same behaviour. I also tried 3 different CF's, to no avail. Btw., it seems to be not too picky about CF cards, from Transcend CF170 to consumer grade Sandisk Extreme and Ultra everything behaves the same.
There is a R&S utility called GR_CHECK.EXE which checks the links to the various transputers one by one and reports it's findings. I need it urgently, so if anyone on the board has it sitting around on his hard drive...
Regards
ghieber
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I was able to purchase a R&S ZVM without a hard drive. It was pretty cheap and seemed worth a shot. The only issues are that the auxiliary inputs b1 and b2 are bent downwards (at least 20 degrees) and the encoder is very stiff. I suspect that the main ports are slightly bent too (maybe 1mm arc) but this thing is built like a tank and I don't think I have the tools or skills required to repair the metal.
I tried a few things mentioned in this topic. The basic CF adapter w/ Transcend 8GB card worked well in my unit. I was able to boot off the image provided in the last file share that was posted but I was unsuccessful at converting it to a ZVM. When I tried the firmware app would lock up and complain about a C file. I contacted R&S and they sent me a Norton Ghost image. It was a bit of trouble getting it to work. I had to install XP in a virtual machine, image a vmdk, and then use the vmdk to image the CF card. When I tried to image the CF directly (connected to an IDE adapter) Norton Ghost would hang at around 96-98% and the CF would boot to various errors. After booting a good image I added all the option keys and then followed the guide in the manual for post hard drive replacement configuration. It seems like it works fine now.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1QxPTX2F3NxBDY_pR93ZMYV2Ptf0mhqyq
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thanks for all the information about the repair of a ZVR. My own unit came back from Rohde after a factory calibration with a broken HDD, two broken sectors, so I tried to replace the HDD with a CF card. First I created an image with HDD Raw Copy.
I started with a normal 4GB CF card, and had to learn that there is a differences between CF cards some reports the bios they are removable and other that they are fixed disks. So I change the CF card to an industry Transcend CF card with 8GB. At the beginning it seemed to work, but sometimes I got write errors. So I tried to get into the Bios of my ZVR, but the CTRL-ALT-ESC did not work.
My Bios has version 2.1 and here I had to use CTRL-ALT-E. If you power up the unit with pressed “BACK” it shows you for a short time the key combination for the bios. I had to try it several time to get into the bios and here I saw that the CF card was detected but the calculated MB number was false. So I tried a industry CF Card with 1GB. Now the Unit works as expected. :)
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Hello
I have ZVCE without a disk. I made a copy from Georg's- PY5ZSE file .
My ZVCE worked but as ZVR 4GHz ???? Of course with errors due to different model.
Do you have another ZVCE disk image?
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Hello
I don't need anymore. I made a copy on CF. ZVCE turns on.
There are still problems with port 1, I don't know what is broken yet.