Author Topic: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?  (Read 52105 times)

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2015, 08:34:46 am »
do you even microscope bro? this is apple, when you see resistors in the picture they are most likely 0201  :palm:
plus cleaning will remove any residue anyway, so why bother spending extra time pipetting "just enough"?
Sure I do my soldering under a stereo microscope and yeah I know how small these things are although I stop at 0402 for my own boards.
It is not about "just enough" it is about "enough is enough" and "too much is too much".
Though I am in the minority here obviously since the pro's say you never have enough and probably poor 4 liters of flux on a pcb and wait for 1 hours that it all is gone before the solder will stick, not!
So yeah there is something like too much flux in my opinion. I myself never had the problem of resoldering the same component three to four times as he so greatly demonstrates in his video. Could be due to the recording like Dave has a problem also I am not sure but it just looks messy and gets in the way of application of the solder to the leads, it just will not stick since there seems to be too much flux. When it eventually evaporates for 3/4 it starts to work.
Hey but then this is the real thing, not hobby time hour.
So for instance if I do my own plumbing it takes me at least 10 minutes to carefully loosen a waterjoint. But a pro just bangs with a hammer on that joint till it gets loose, does his thing, checks if it is waterproof and leaves again. In that time I just slowly and carefully have got the joint loose.
So yeah if you consider that time is money it is his job and the customer will never see the end result as long as the product lasts 90 days of warranty who gives a f... then yeah he is sure doing a great job.
And just with IPA you don't get it clean is my experience, it always shows. Who cares as long as it works.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2015, 08:58:53 am »
So yeah if you consider that time is money it is his job and the customer will never see the end result as long as the product lasts 90 days of warranty who gives a f... then yeah he is sure doing a great job.
And just with IPA you don't get it clean is my experience, it always shows. Who cares as long as it works.

it doesnt show, thats what ultrasonic bath is for. You can tell what part of the board was worked on only by non patinated solder joints/bodges around.
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Offline bookaboo

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2015, 09:20:38 am »
Thread is getting a little ridiculous, bookaboo is charging me a days labor on some other customers repair and Howardlong is charging me for a special high density connector for a resistor.

I'm starting to think I should have repaired it myself.

Haha, yep yours was a dry joint but still $350 please. 3 month warranty (on that joint only)  :-DD
Joking aside, repairs are not my main game but I've had experience in industrial repair workshops and $1000+ for a dry joint, loose ribbon cable or something is not uncommon. The big players in those markets will never send you a bill for $60 stating "we sorted that very easily", they charge what it's worth every single time. On the flip side they get the occasional nightmare job where they have to write off an entire day or more of technicians time where an item is eventually found to be BER, in the companies I have seen the customer pays nothing in that case.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2015, 09:43:39 am »
it doesnt show, thats what ultrasonic bath is for. You can tell what part of the board was worked on only by non patinated solder joints/bodges around.
Did you read studies about electronic pcbs and ultrasonic baths? If you are not very carefull and restrict time and power you can do damage to the components solderconnections.


 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2015, 10:59:03 am »
it doesnt show, thats what ultrasonic bath is for. You can tell what part of the board was worked on only by non patinated solder joints/bodges around.
Did you read studies

no, too busy actually fixing shit :D. Like I and others said before, this stuff mostly bothers academic types that never stepped into the trenches.
its a good thing if board doesnt work after ultrasonic, it means you caught imminent failure that would manifest shortly making client annoyed/angry
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Offline krivx

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2015, 11:02:22 am »
it doesnt show, thats what ultrasonic bath is for. You can tell what part of the board was worked on only by non patinated solder joints/bodges around.
Did you read studies

no, too busy actually fixing shit :D. Like I and others said before, this stuff mostly bothers academic types that never stepped into the trenches.
its a good thing if board doesnt work after ultrasonic, it means you caught imminent failure that would manifest shortly making client annoyed/angry

I think he addresses this in a video. I've only seen a couple but I think one was on his ultrasonic bath use.

I agree that the guy seems very aggressive and angry. Not sure if I would want to work with him, chops or not. Does he have any really good, highly recommended videos? I'm willing to give him a chance if I would learn something but I find I'm just rolling my eyes when he rants.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2015, 11:33:03 am »
I'm willing to give him a chance if I would learn something but I find I'm just rolling my eyes when he rants.

His rants can be fun:
 

Offline funkyant

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2015, 12:38:00 pm »
I have worked alongside a lot of incredibly talented repair techs, that were known to be the best in their field. With a couple of exceptions, almost all of them had this confidence that I always put down to part of the mindset needed to churn through difficult repairs quickly.

You wouldn't want to go into a sports match with the mindset that you could lose, and I've observed this positive (sometimes overly so, and sometimes super annoying) attitude in the best of the best guys.

You don't usually see people with unjustified over confidence out in the field, as they tend to be out of work and too busy commenting on YouTube videos.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2015, 01:19:07 pm »
You don't usually see people with unjustified over confidence out in the field, as they tend to be out of work and too busy commenting on YouTube videos.

 :-DD
 

Offline krivx

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2015, 03:13:10 pm »
I'm willing to give him a chance if I would learn something but I find I'm just rolling my eyes when he rants.

His rants can be fun:


I've listened to some of his videos while working and liked them actually, I was just put off by one of him talking about fixing someone else's repair and raging about it. Not super interested in tantrums, I would prefer to see him do the repair work :)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2015, 01:14:37 am »
After having watched some of Louis Rossmann's repair videos, it seems like he's adding tons of liquid flux on whatever part he's repairing as a mater of course.
I guess he does go overboard with flux, but that's harmless I suppose. But I noticed something else (in this video and others of his): he loves to wipe and scrape with hot solder wick. I thought that was a big no-no?
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2015, 01:48:01 am »
After having watched some of Louis Rossmann's repair videos, it seems like he's adding tons of liquid flux on whatever part he's repairing as a mater of course.
I guess he does go overboard with flux, but that's harmless I suppose. But I noticed something else (in this video and others of his): he loves to wipe and scrape with hot solder wick. I thought that was a big no-no?

Solder wick is copper,just like the tracks---it doesn't do much harm.
And it is meant to be hot!
 

Offline FireFlower

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2015, 01:54:57 am »
as I pro I approve some of his equipment. His techniques in other hand need some more work. It was painful to watch him to desolder those connector pads by wiping!

Blah, he needs to read IPC 7711/21 guidelines again  :popcorn:

Also flux amount is massive. I don't get it why people add a ton of flux everywhere. Well probably I know the reason because youtube guides tell you so. If I do professional work I use flux syringe gun
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 02:00:32 am by FireFlower »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2015, 03:03:55 am »
as I pro I approve some of his equipment. His techniques in other hand need some more work. It was painful to watch him to desolder those connector pads by wiping!

Blah, he needs to read IPC 7711/21 guidelines again  :popcorn:

Also flux amount is massive. I don't get it why people add a ton of flux everywhere. Well probably I know the reason because youtube guides tell you so. If I do professional work I use flux syringe gun

If you are referring to him cleaning the track prior to the resistor replacement,yes,that was a bit rough,but if you mean the multi-way connector pads---that's the way most people would do it.

I've found,(& was taught at two separate High Reliability Hand Soldering courses) that of all the desolder methods,de-solder braid is the least likely to thermally overstress the PCB substructure.
It is perilously easy to damage small pads with a desoldering gun.

Most people don't have a flux syringe gun--it's as simple as that!
All the fluxes I've used can be removed with IPA.
 

Offline FireFlower

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2015, 03:28:19 am »
It is not about thermal thing killing those pads, if one of the pads accidentally sticks de-solder braid and you pull it might come off and start flipping around. Yeah maybe I have become overprotective at work because QC guys sometimes come nagging about a NC pad missing from 50 pins component or connector so I have been careful not to damage those pads. Yeah kinda pain in the ass when pad comes off and you have to put it back for just looks, nobody likes to reattach those NC pads.

And Syringe gun costs what $10? $30-40 probably with ESD safe plastic. Flux syringe costs $10-20 and lasts at industry level daily use for 6-12 months depending how thin needle head you have.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 03:30:54 am by FireFlower »
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2015, 04:23:58 am »
If I do professional work I use flux syringe gun


That looks like it would be really awkward to use personally.   
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Offline FireFlower

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2015, 04:44:53 am »
If I do professional work I use flux syringe gun


That looks like it would be really awkward to use personally.

And once you use it you do not want never use pens or other systems. Very ergonomic design and trigger applies just enough force for only a drop to come out.
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2015, 06:56:48 am »

i think some customers expect repair shops to just "simply" repair, and not consider that 1 failed repair could mean double work for the next shop. to the user, he thinks he is bringing the "original" fault to the "new" shop. maybe he should do a live inspection when a customer brings in repairs so the customer could see for themselves the real mess inside as he explains it clearly, maybe by doing that he could charge additional to repair a failed repair ?

I've seen a few of his videos to improve my rework/repair.  His shop operates on "Flat rate fix", "No fix no pay" and they give a bit of a warranty.  I'd be angry if someone had done something to me that cost me money, which if he had just left well enough alone would have been profitable.  I may not do a rant video, but I would certainly curse them!
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2015, 08:36:33 am »
Been browsing his videos, while brash there's nothing Ive seen so far that would put me off. Consumer repairs are not my game but I bet there's stuff to be learned here.

Regarding reworking a bodged repairs: Repair techs HATE working on something someone else has attempted to fix as it means either:
a) It's a difficult/impossible fix
b) Previous attempt has made it worse.
In a previous employment I had/have one customer who only ever brought me what they couldn't fix, took me a while to realise what was going on when I noted I never got any easy repairs from them. As I said before you need the easy  5 min jobs to balance out the nightmare marathons.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2015, 09:25:31 am »
It is not about thermal thing killing those pads, if one of the pads accidentally sticks de-solder braid and you pull it might come off and start flipping around. Yeah maybe I have become overprotective at work because QC guys sometimes come nagging about a NC pad missing from 50 pins component or connector so I have been careful not to damage those pads. Yeah kinda pain in the ass when pad comes off and you have to put it back for just looks, nobody likes to reattach those NC pads.

And Syringe gun costs what $10? $30-40 probably with ESD safe plastic. Flux syringe costs $10-20 and lasts at industry level daily use for 6-12 months depending how thin needle head you have.

If you keep the heat at the correct level,the braid won't stick.
I have had it happen,but very few times.

I've only worked in one production  environment-----they were very "gung-ho" about some "Quality Assurance" things,like doing things the same way each time.
The only problem was that they did everything wrong,so they still had inbuilt faults.
It also meant that attempts to reform their processes were doomed to failure.

Repair is a different thing altogether,especially in a TV Studio.

If the Production Dept want 12 Picture Monitors for a show,they want them NOW.
Not good when you can only find  8 good ones,& 4 faulty ones.
You make the things work,& work to specs,even if the Factory would not approve of some of your methods!
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2015, 09:50:11 am »
If you've *ever* worked in the repair trade for just about *anything* mechanical or electronic, you'll have a good deal of sympathy for his attitude, and when it comes to robbing the elephant's graveyard for parts that aren't available in less than 10K quantities, there aren't a lot of alternatives.  Better to salvage the part yourself under reasonably controlled conditions and have it today, than to buy it online, get it two weeks later and have a 99% probability it's been 'reprocessed' in the PRC or a 3rd world country, with a >50% probability its been done by burning off the board over a charcoal fire and washing the parts in the river using child labour.

I've cleaned off many pads by wiping with hot braid.   You always wipe from the track towards the other end to avoid damage.  You also get a feel for whether a board is in good enough condition for it to be sensible or not.

On the flux issue - the good stuff costs money, and so does whatever you are running in the ultrasonic cleaner tank to clean it off.   A slight excess of flux is far better than too little, but I think he's over-doing it. I'll use a toothpick if I have to, to get the amount I want, where I want it.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2015, 10:43:33 am »
I got an assortment of (unsharpened) needle tips on ebay for like $4 -- 10pcs each of 11 sizes. Easy to dispense very carefully with that. (I've since found "needles" with flexible Teflon tubes instead of metal, probably even better for electronics use.)
 

Offline Fat

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2015, 04:46:45 pm »
He's in an setting with a very high overhead and a massive workload. He takes in repairs from other shops that they couldn't solve.  To Rossmann, time is money. He moves through it as quickly as possible. He doesn't take time to find the toothpick to apply just the right amount of flux. Speed is everything.  I could do without some of the language, but it is fun for me to watch what he's doing.

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Offline jaxbird

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2015, 05:11:57 pm »
The man is making a steady living for himself and others in a clearly hostile environment, I can only applaud that.

He might not be the best at replacing components, but it works and he does give a repair guarantee to his customers, I really don't see any problems here. He has managed to create a steady business from nothing, without any fancy degrees or anything. He just worked out if this doesn't work, you replace this thing, and hey that is all you really need to know.



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Offline Bud

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2015, 05:21:22 pm »
I watched a few and it seemed the guy was scared like hell of all of the competition out there.
Just plain scared.

But the reason i dropped him from my views list was too much repetition when he talks.  He repeats after repeiting of repeiting himself. That to me was even worse than his low language.
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