I like repairing Analogue Electronics because ...

[Mr. Scram]

Rossmann is a crazy person. It’s really not practical to repair some things these days past FRU swap out and having done rework in the defence sector, I wouldn’t trust any of the repairs. The only niche it fits is when someone can’t afford to replace whatever they bought and that his Labour is marginally cheaper.

What don’t factored into any of his videos is repair longevity. Track rework and bodge wires on some of them have a lifetime of weeks. Long enough to get paid.

I won't pretend to have any experience with his services, but he has a 90 day warranty on board level repairs and says to work with people outside of that period, which seems to be true. Yelp reviews also seem generally favourable.

[bd139]

For reference I agree with you both (or I wouldn’t be buying old scopes all the time ). The problem is a practicality one really. We demand things which are smaller and faster with better battery life and that drives innovation and decreases size. Eventually we get to a level of integration where specialist repairs are required or it’s a write off. Louis is riding the twilight zone between the two sides of the fence. He has good reviews because the alternative for people is to by again because they can’t afford to. They can’t afford to own what they have.

Conversely we’re actually starting to build things that can be recycled (look at WEEE) which is unlike the situation previously where we’d be burying nasty mercury, lead and beryllium oxide filled crap.

There’s good and bad.

[Specmaster]

Conversely we’re actually starting to build things that can be recycled (look at WEEE) which is unlike the situation previously where we’d be burying nasty mercury, lead and beryllium oxide filled crap.

To an extent, you have a point there, but the other side of the coin also says that there is commercial value to the extraction of certain materials, the cynic in me says that take the commercial reward away and see just how quick that service, like the products are confined to landfill again.

[bd139]

Of course there is. That’s the entire point of the recycling industry. You can’t incentivise the human race to do anything unless there is some selfish gain. So the recyclers take in a skip full of LCD televisions and outcomes pelletised plastics, glass, metals which they sell to foundries who make them back into products because recycled materials are cheaper than raw refined ones.

Some does inevitably go to landfill which is unavoidable at the moment but reducing that is happening all the time as we learn how to process it all.

One thing I did find funny a few weeks back is I dropped my tape dispenser, a cheapy from amazon. And you know what I found in it? It was jammed packed full of Recycled metal. Cheeky buggers.

Anyway all of this pales in comparison to the ridiculous packaging everything comes in, particularly foods. Most of it is non recyclable films.

[vze1lryy]

What don’t factored into any of his videos is repair longevity. Track rework and bodge wires on some of them have a lifetime of weeks. Long enough to get paid.

Longevity isn't factored into the videos, it's factored into the reviews we've accumulated over the past 8 years. https://www.yelp.com/biz/rossmann-repair-group-new-york-2 https://plus.google.com/105789485864924206597?gl=US&hl=en-US

Our license number with the NYC department of consumer affairs is 1418138. We have not had a single claim filed.

Running a wire beats letting a rotten trace be trusted to carry a line over the lifespan of a device. We do not leave suspect junk on the boards we work on or repair what should be trashed.

Our track record and reputation is public for anyone curious. Whrre is yours? Please, speak for yourself!

 I think most companies that talk about Recycling and being good to the environment our virtue signaling. Example, Apple forcing recyclers to shred their devices before we get our hands on them while claiming to care about sustainability. That's all the pile of crap to keep government Regulators at bay. I also find many screaming about environmental benefits only doing so to excuse giving more power to the government when they themselves don't care at all.

[Mr. Scram]

To an extent, you have a point there, but the other side of the coin also says that there is commercial value to the extraction of certain materials, the cynic in me says that take the commercial reward away and see just how quick that service, like the products are confined to landfill again.

As soon people start realizing there is no waste, but all resources being thrown out, things will turn around. Right now it's cheaper to dig it out of the ground than to reclaim it out of old electronics, but that obviously can't last forever.

[bd139]

It’s really not. Look at commodities markets. Transporting things is a big cost.

What don’t factored into any of his videos is repair longevity. Track rework and bodge wires on some of them have a lifetime of weeks. Long enough to get paid.

Longevity isn't factored into the videos, it's factored into the reviews we've accumulated over the past 8 years. https://www.yelp.com/biz/rossmann-repair-group-new-york-2 https://plus.google.com/105789485864924206597?gl=US&hl=en-US

Our license number with the NYC department of consumer affairs is 1418138. We have not had a single claim filed.

Running a wire beats letting a rotten trace be trusted to carry a line over the lifespan of a device. We do not leave suspect junk on the boards we work on or repair what should be trashed.

Our track record and reputation is public for anyone curious. Whrre is yours? Please, speak for yourself!

 I think most companies that talk about Recycling and being good to the environment our virtue signaling. Example, Apple forcing recyclers to shred their devices before we get our hands on them while claiming to care about sustainability. That's all the pile of crap to keep government Regulators at bay. I also find many screaming about environmental benefits only doing so to excuse giving more power to the government when they themselves don't care at all.

I have watched your videos and process and I can’t agree with the long term viability. Reviews, fine. I don’t get any negative feedback even if I don’t successfully fix something. I’m paid to throw a life ring out.

The problem with the bodge wires is that they affect both mechanical and electrical reliability. For example if you look at bus lines, relflections and termination are important. Fundamentally that alters the characteristics and the designed in parameters such as trace length.  While the general case may appear to work in he short term, mechanical stress caused by expansion and contraction on a solder joint can kill it dead again. Even if you anchor, epoxy it afterwards it will fail and fail quicker than the rest of the board. On top of that if it screws a bus transaction 1 in a million times, is the user going to notice their data getting hosed? Not until something crashes. Not like the machines have ECC in them. If you’re reworking power, less important.

What you’re doing is a sticky plaster. Albeit a decent one. It’s always temporary. It’s better than leaving the status quo but that’s it.

My argument is about scrapping the FRU entirely instead of repair. The reason people pay for your services is that they either (a) screwed up the hardware themselves so aren’t covered by warranty (b) out of warranty (consumer protection is shit in the US) or (c) the cost is lower than an FRU replacement. You’re in that twilight zone of helplessness where the user didn’t pay for an extended warranty and can’t afford a new device ergo they run a risk assessment trivially and go for repair. . On that basis, could they afford to run the device to start with? Probably not. And that’s a cultural problem.

My reputation comes from reworking and QA’ing milspec flight hardware for a defence contractor. Not something I can demonstrate publicly really unfortunately. That stuff was designed to be reworked though, not shitcanned like most consumer electronics. The parts that were disposable usually blew up intentionally.

Please note that I’m not for scrapping stuff and I think for what you have to work with you do a wonderful job but fundamentally I think this repair approach is a symptom of a larger problem in the industry. You’re in a niche that exists because of that. I don’t think it’s the best answer or the best solution.

[Mr. Scram]

You seem quite sure about people having things repaired because they don't have any other recourse. Or because they can't afford the device they own, in your words. I don't see any reason why someone who can actually afford a new device wouldn't save a few hundred to thousand bucks to get his device repaired. It being a last resort seems mostly dependent on it being obviously inferior. If you have a repair that's going to last the useful life of your device, and is cheaper than replacing, it could well be a viable option. Of course, there's more than just board level repairs too, like simply replacing a screen.

Obviously, you view repairs as very temporary at best, but I'm hesitant to agree without more to go on. As you say, military hardware is quite different, so I'm not sure that's the best source of information. Louis Rossmann seems to be in a privileged position in the sense that he has a large dataset to work with, even though he obviously also has a stake in the viability of repair.

[bd139]

If you read my comments, you will see the distinction between board and FRU level repairs. FRU repairs are less likely to result in decrease in reliability. Apple glue all the FRUs together which is a problem these days. Ergo my point is if you spend money on premium hardware, that should be their problem. If you can’t afford to make it their problem, should you pay for that hardware to start with? Vote with your feet. Buy a shitty acer instead.

I’ve repaired 100 or so laptops (Lenovo, HP, Apple) over the last few years for ref. I’ve dealt with smoked and burned MagSafe connectors, water damage to MBPs, coffee and shit encrusted thinkpads. I wouldn’t go near board repair because I wouldn’t be able to guarantee what i kick out afterwards.

There has been a decline in maintainabiliy recently. I only recommend thinkpad T series to people now as you can predict the maintenance cost going forward.

I myself use a 2013 15” i7 MBP which i paid a metric shit ton of cash for at the time. That was covered by Apple care. After that expired I expected to sell it for parts. It’s still going. I can walk in an Apple store and afford to buy another one tomorrow. That’s how you should run your IT. Or refurb thinkpads where you can drop a ubiquitous FRU in and carry on.

Edit: you can see this just by walking down a street. Everyone you see with a smashed phone screen. Think about why it’s still smashed.

[Mr. Scram]

Again, I can't really agree with the notion that these people wouldn't be able to afford a new device and that that's the only reason they opt to repair. It's more likely to be a matter of choosing not to spend it, for various reasons. Even if a repair is bound to be temporary, if it buys you 12 or 15 months, it might very well be a good deal.

I must admit, I took apart a Thinkpad for someone the other day and I was pleasantly surprised. Those things are designed with maintenance in mind. I've seen similar modularity before, but only on devices now considered ancient. You don't even sacrifice that much, as they're still fairly spiffy devices. I could even find a maintenance guide to see what part I needed to order. That's neat.

[Specmaster]

I was asked by a computer shop if I could repair computers and I said yes if it was FRU's and the like but they wanted board repairs at that point I said no way, they are way to complicated and unpredictable and even if I was able to fix them, there was a high chance of the same issue reoccuring again or something else. Its cheaper to replace the board. Laptops fill me with dread as everything is custom made, desktops, the board can replaced easily with another and back in business again. Its a shame that laptops weren't made in a similar fashion, I can't vouch for Thinkpads having never seen inside one but I do know that are well made as they have the look and feel of well engineered product.
 

[Mjolinor]

I pretty much stopped mending laptops but that was just me being bored.

It would be interesting to know the failure modes. For my part there were always a lot where a capacitor had gone short circuit somewhere in the power system. Hard to find without a Toneohm or similar but for sure absolutely no effect on reliability after repair. Much much better than buying a new one be you rich or poor, green or not.

[bd139]

When a thinkpad FRU is less than an hour’s wages, costs and expenses you have to look at the economics.

I’ve found that the two niches of utmost reliability and maintenance are buying 2-3 year old ex corporate stuff where there’s a large spares inventory on the market or new stuff with a warranty that is worth something (basically Apple).

You know the most reliable devices though: iOS. Literally unless you pulp the thing they just go on and on.

I was thinking last night as well. The reason Apple shred their devices is twofold. Firstly they don’t want them appearing on the grey market because they tend to end up in the hands of shitty repairers (market stall phone repairers for example) who do a low quality job and then increase their baseline support cost by dragging them back to an Apple store. Secondly, if shit is broken, and we learned this from Bob Widlar, you take a hammer to it. There’s not a failed inventory sitting around waiting to screw you. We used bag all failed QA parts and get them out of the building pronto.

[vze1lryy]

I have watched your videos and process and I can’t agree with the long term viability. Reviews, fine. I don’t get any negative feedback even if I don’t successfully fix something. I’m paid to throw a life ring out.

There is a difference between a bad review for something not being fixable and a bad review because something broke repeatedly months later. The former, you would have to be a real douche to leave. The latter would be common.

The problem with the bodge wires is that they affect both mechanical and electrical reliability. For example if you look at bus lines, relflections and termination are important. Fundamentally that alters the characteristics and the designed in parameters such as trace length.  While the general case may appear to work in he short term, mechanical stress caused by expansion and contraction on a solder joint can kill it dead again. Even if you anchor, epoxy it afterwards it will fail and fail quicker than the rest of the board. On top of that if it screws a bus transaction 1 in a million times, is the user going to notice their data getting hosed? Not until something crashes. Not like the machines have ECC in them. If you’re reworking power, less important.

That we are even discussing ECC shows how convoluted this conversation has become. We have to differentiate lines. We're not advocating for a 9" bodge wire being run from the memory to the CPU. We're talking about a 0.05mm wire being run for LCD power feedback or current sensing, which is not going to have any practical affect throughout the usable lifetime of the device. Further, you are welcome to drop any board with this wire on it off a building and check the joint's continuity when dropped.

If we were soldering 22 awg speaker wire to a 0201 resistor, fine. But 50 awg magnet wire on a 0603 with a good joint is sticking on there just as fine as the rest of the board.

My reputation comes from reworking and QA’ing milspec flight hardware for a defence contractor. Not something I can demonstrate publicly really unfortunately. That stuff was designed to be reworked though, not shitcanned like most consumer electronics. The parts that were disposable usually blew up intentionally.

This honestly doesn't surprise me. One of the people that taught me much of what I use today as a diagnostic mindset, used to shoo away any idea of modern repair. "that surface mount stuff isn't made to be fixable, and it's too damn small!" This seems to be a common attitude amongst people who are used to working on devices that were designed to be worked on, and it is totally understandable - "I spent my career working on devices where the manufacturer helps you repair them. Now they are designed intentionally to NOT be repairable - "fuck that!" I get it, but if i had listened to many of these naysayers I might actually BELIEVE that board repairs failed because of bodge wires.

Most things that come back for warranty are because a CPU mosfet flinched and sent too long a spike of 12v to a CPU, which was part of the initial damage. This has nothing to do with bodge wires, or signals "stopping short" 1 in 100k times due to a wire. These are the devices we deem unfixable from the get go. If a high side MOSFET going to a microprocessor is destroyed, it's probably going into a bin, not worth the hassle for us or the end consumer.

Edit: you can see this just by walking down a street. Everyone you see with a smashed phone screen. Think about why it’s still smashed.

Fixing your phone is a chore. You have to find someone trustworthy, make a trip out of your way, wait in line, etc. A cracked screen if the image is still visible, to many, is not worth adding it to their chores list. Same reason people don't go to the gym two weeks after New Year's.

[Mjolinor]

Same reason people don't go to the gym two weeks after New Year's.

That's me and the 50 weeks before.

[Specmaster]

Same reason people don't go to the gym two weeks after New Year's.

That's me and the 50 weeks before.

Count me in that as well 

[flowib]

Board level repair could be very economically viable if someone took the time to cobble together some in circuit test modules for the mainboards.

most if not all the hard to detect failures show up as shorted or out of median resistance nets in a in circuit test for a PCB MLB repair would be a breeze.

There are still companies doing component level repair on their products and this can be viable, all through any high energy product will blow up quite violently rendering repair unfeasible.