| Electronics > Repair |
| Vintage chip Programmer : " Micropross ROM 3000U " |
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| m k:
Your DD drive booted using your HD drive made disk. Your DD drive can't read HD contents. So your new disk is DD. SH/AH seems to be head load. AH is automatic, so no need to worry. It's an old thing and hardly any new drive has any. Alps DF354H has both densities. So it can do currant DD disks. Both 3.5" drives are 80 track machines. 80 and 40 track differences are 5.25" stuff. 3.5" DD and HD differences are writing density, not track density and disk quality or capacity. 3.5" DD has 9 sectors when HD has 18, that's PC's 512 byte sectors. So your 16*256 is bit less than PC's 720k formatted DD disk. Connect HD drive to programmer using connector after twisted section. Connect DD drive to PC using straight cable but swap short from S0 to S1. HD drive knows that DD disks are available but programmer doesn't know that HD exists. If HD drive behaves the programmer is completely happy. Now that you have that new boot disk, try reading it with Linux, nothing special needed. At least old PC controller has 256 byte sectors but Widows is not supporting it. |
| Vince:
OK !!! Thanks MK for the help, we now have results here at Vince's Lab, I am pleased to report ! :-+ 1) Programmer's DD drive now works in the old PC 2) I was able to use IMD to successfully write the system disk image to a DD disk 3) Then tried that disk : plugged the DD drive back into the programmer : it can boot from it just fine and I can talk to the programmer with the Terminal just fine... it works ! So that's super cool ! I can now WRITE proper DD disks, making progress here ! 4) No joy with using the HD drive in the programmer though, it just beeps at it in a very condescending way that I dislike... I think the controller board in the programmer just is not modern or sophisticaed enough, or simply not setup to handle an HD drive and that's it. So I will keep having to swap the DD drive from the programmer to the PC, and back... or just keep writing them with the HD drive since the DD disks are blank/NOS and it appears to read back just fine on the DD drive.... that will make my life easier for now. Anyway, I don't have to write a millions disks anyway... I have only 3 or 4 disk images to try out, so I will just make these 3/4 four DD disks then I am done, I will be able t leave that DD drive in the programmer for good, where it belongs. Would be cool if I could find a DD drive to buy somewhere... if someone in the Euro zone (i.e. no customs and cheap shipping...) has one gathering dust..... OK so now I need to write the images I was passed, using IMD... so first I need to figure out what format these images are using, so I can try to cnvert them into the IMD format. Lightbulb moment = maybe I could just use that HxC S/W ? As adrian said it can handle lots of image files format... maybe it will auto detect my images, and then rewrite them in the IMD format.... that would be cool wouldn'it... OK that's some more to play with. Oh forgot : I also added a floppy drive to my main / Linux computer ! >:D Will help me work on disks directly from my main computer rather than having to transfer stuff via the network to the vintage PC so I can use its drive. Also, I have been meaning to add a USB attached floppy drive for some time now, to read screen captures from my Tektronix TDS544A scope ! Well, no need for a USB anything now, I have an actual drive available ! >:D Forgot #2 : MK, yes that would be super cool to be able to read the DD disks on my main Linux machine indeed ! However I don't know how to do that. I guess I need to use the MOUNT command and tell it what file system to use... but since it's a custom file system, I don't know how to tell Linux the parameters to use for that to work... Need to do some googling / reading and forum asking I guess... but yes if we can do that, imagine how marvelous that would be to actually be able to see all the files in these, open them, write to them without causing CRC errors.... FANTASTIC !!! >:D ON ANOTHER NOTE ! Changing subject now... I spent an hour looking at the MSDOS S/W on a HEX Editor, I just can't help. It was interesting. Here is a summary of my findings, looking at all the ASCII strings I could find : 1) The first 75% of the file are binary, not one string. Probabyl the "packed" executable that DC1MC found in that file. 2) I see mention of a " ULIS " compiler... does that ring a bell DC1MC ?? 3) The S/W can - Read/write chips, set start and end addresses, set programming voltages, and detect a good variety of electrical fault conditions (shorts of all kinds...), check if the part is blank, verify / rad back the chip, check CRC. - Modify the settings of the UART - Use the DD drive to format disks, and copy them : "insert source disk... remove it, insert target disk " etc... - Checks that the programmer booted properly. My programmer returns "00" when asked about that, and a return value of 00 IIRC is a kinda standard value to mean that everything went well eh ? So that's good. - Can check if the H/W of the programmer is OK : "System ROM " (The 6502 CPU's EPROM I guess), as well DRAM and SRAM and also "Hardware"... I guess that refers to the 3 analog I/O boards. - A string that says : "Insert PC S/W Disk #3" that's bad... means I might be asked to insert a disk I don't have, in order to be able this or that... - A string that says : "Requires Board IO2_5" : so that's bad as well, means some stuff can only be done with this board. Either they mean a different board than the one I have, or they mean just a newer revision of a board that's already there. I guess "IO2_5 means " second analog I./O board (there are 3 of them), version 5 ? something like that... I could pull the boards to see what markings are on them to help suss this out, I guess... - A string that says : "Function not implemented in programmer " . Now that's interesting... the S/W seemed to be meant to interact strictly with a ROM300B model, so it should be able to take for granted what features the programmer can or cannot handle... This maybe means that it CAN handle more than just the ROM3000B model ? That's interesting.... It can handle the following input file formats, most of which I have never heard of, because well, I am not that old I guess... Note the three Tektronix formats, cool but weird / surprising ! :wtf: Binary ASCII - BNPF ASCII - BHLF ASCII - B10F ASCII - Octal ASCII - Hex MOTOROLA Exormacs INTEL HEX - MCS 86 HP 64000 absolute TEKTRO S8000 TEKTRO S8002 Extended TEKHEX SIGNETICS absolute TEXAS SDSMAC MOSTEK FAIRCHILD RCA COSMAC - There seems to be this concept of a "Board" file. I see strings like "No Board file ! " "Storing Board file" "Restoring Board file" "Transmit Board file". So I am thinking maybe this refers to a set of parameters sent to the programmer to tell it how to configure all of its I/O board in order to work with this or that particular chip. Just a shot in the dark... - Found two blocks of text that list 4 letter commands (what PCprogrammer must have seen the other day). I rewrote them and ordered them alphabetically, 49 of them. This makes it easier to see that there are some lone commands (like BOOT and HELO that we already knew about) but that the bulk of them are spread into a few groups of related commands, which all start with the same two letters. Here it is. BDBL BDCK BDIL BDLO BDPR BDPS BDVE BDVF BOOT CFPR CFPS CFRS CFTC CFVP CLOS CLTP DFPA FDDD FDDI FDFR FDL2 FDLB FDLD FDLO FDW2 FDWB FDWD FDWR HELO INRE INTR MECK MEFI MEMO OPEN OPTP PRFU RSFR RSPA RSRB RSRE RSTR RSTY RSVE TIWC TSBD TSDR TSRO TSSR So I guess they decided to use the first two letters to designate the subject/object being worked on, and the last two letters code the type of action that's going to be applied to that object. Sounds like a reasonable / plausible assumption. Anyway, we can see that one of the group starts with "BDxx" .... BD like... BoarD eh ? ! >:D So we have a set of commands to work with these "board" thingies. One group starts with "FDxx", so that could mean "Floppy Drive/Disk" I guess... Then "RSxx "group could mean "Receive Stream" ? So the "TS" group would be for Transmitting then. The "MExx" group maybe has to do with MEmory.. maybe commands to test the programmers RAM at power up. At this point I think it's time to look at the 5000 manuals I was passed, to see if the commands listed there, matches the ones I found here, how to use them, and if there are more commands than what I see here. So you see ? We can learn a lot of things, and gather clues, just by having a quick look with a HEX editor... I just love HEX editors !!! >:D |
| m k:
--- Quote from: Vince on January 07, 2023, 06:41:19 pm ---Would be cool if I could find a DD drive to buy somewhere... if someone in the Euro zone (i.e. no customs and cheap shipping...) has one gathering dust..... --- End quote --- Your BASF drive with its head load setting is so old that it's archaic. If programmer's controller is equally old it's poking in the dark with possibly any drive you may find. One info was that some BASF drives have RDY to pin 6, PC drive is missing that. Is the programmer equally upset if you try it without any drive? There are not very many possibilities and if you have a spare cable to destroy you can start doing some connections. You can also remove the cover of HD drive, there should be at least a place for jumpers, try to find drive select 0 or first or 1st of 4. People have modified Alps DF354H to work with Amiga so it's not that different. --- Quote ---I guess I need to use the MOUNT command and tell it what file system to use... but since it's a custom file system, --- End quote --- It may not finally be that custom. I wouldn't be very surprised if it's recognized right away. You can also try some live distros. Some years ago Knoppix had a very capable H/W sniffer. |
| Vince:
--- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm --- --- Quote from: Vince on January 07, 2023, 06:41:19 pm ---Would be cool if I could find a DD drive to buy somewhere... if someone in the Euro zone (i.e. no customs and cheap shipping...) has one gathering dust..... --- End quote --- Your BASF drive with its head load setting is so old that it's archaic. If programmer's controller is equally old it's poking in the dark with possibly any drive you may find. One info was that some BASF drives have RDY to pin 6, PC drive is missing that. --- End quote --- Oh you misunderstood I think ! ;D I am looking for more MODERN DD drive, to install in the vintage PC not the programmer ! :-DD So the PC should be able to handle that. The goal is to have a "modern" DD drive in the PC so that I can leave the ancient DD drive in the programmer where it belooooongs. This way I would not have to swap the programmers all the time between the PC and the programmer, because it's a pain !!! --- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm ---Is the programmer equally upset if you try it without any drive? --- End quote --- Well I don't have the video output (not possible, too much mess on the bench atm), but as far as the sound track is concerned then yes, it behaves exactly the same : one loud BEEP and that's all.... --- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm ---There are not very many possibilities and if you have a spare cable to destroy you can start doing some connections. --- End quote --- Oh hell no, no reason to waste time and effort messing with that, given that I do not HAVE to... Again I think it's just that the floppy controller in the programmer is just not capable of handling that HD drive. --- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm ---You can also remove the cover of HD drive, there should be at least a place for jumpers, try to find drive select 0 or first or 1st of 4. --- End quote --- Hmmm.. clever, didn't think of that. Alas I cracked it open no jumpers to be found, there is no room for that inside, the mechanical stuff takes all the space. --- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm ---People have modified Alps DF354H to work with Amiga so it's not that different. --- End quote --- Interesting.... --- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm --- --- Quote ---I guess I need to use the MOUNT command and tell it what file system to use... but since it's a custom file system, --- End quote --- It may not finally be that custom. I wouldn't be very surprised if it's recognized right away. --- End quote --- Alas no luck. I checked /etc/fstab to see if it was set to use a predefined file system, but no, it looks like it's in " AUTO " mode : /dev/fd0 /media/floppy0 auto rw,user,noauto,exec,utf8 0 0 ... which sounds promising. Unfortunately it fails to mount the disk, MOUNT returns an error code #32 which means " Failed to read superblock ", whatever is a " super block ".... OK I have some bad news : I stilll don't know how to convert the few disk image SI have to the IMD format, but what I thought I could try to do at least, right now real quick... is to have a look at these images with a HEX editor. Turns out it works just fine. So I loaded the image that supposedly is for the ROM3000B, as it was shipped in the same directory as the PC S/W that requires, and the latter requires a ROM3000B model as we all know by now.... So the bad news is that the ASCII strings in that image look more like.... a 5000 model, version 7.0AP ..... :palm: So I am doomed, I have ZERO 3000B images ! :scared: Anyway, while I was in there, I checked for a slit of commands, and found one : It's not 100% the same as what I found in the PC S/W EXE file : the system disk is missing some commands, but also has some that the PC S/W does not... Here it is summarized : Absent from the disk : BDPS CLOS CLTP OPEN OPTP Absent from the PC S/W CFAI EEWR EERD RSLI TSPR It's getting late already, 23H30, that's all for today, satuday is already over, time flies when I am working on this programmer :palm: More to come tomorrow hopefully... |
| m k:
--- Quote from: Vince on January 07, 2023, 10:27:14 pm ---Oh you misunderstood I think ! ;D I am looking for more MODERN DD drive, to install in the vintage PC not the programmer ! :-DD So the PC should be able to handle that. The goal is to have a "modern" DD drive in the PC so that I can leave the ancient DD drive in the programmer where it belooooongs. This way I would not have to swap the programmers all the time between the PC and the programmer, because it's a pain !!! --- End quote --- Good for me, but even better for you. You don't need to do that, your HD drive will do authentic DD disks, it's a dual mode machine. It's a bit rate, a length of a bit, that is different between those formats, your HD drive can do it. It's clocking bits in, not rotation speed that is the factor. Inside the drive, close to pin 1 of the interface connector are 3 solder spot jumpers, round pads with a cut in the middle, now DS1 is shorted there. Front side, the corner opposite to write protect hole, there are small push buttons, or maybe one and the other corner has two. Buttons are write protect, disk present and DD/HD disk. Force that DD/HD button down and you have a permanent DD drive, no matter what disks you are using. --- Quote --- --- Quote from: m k on January 07, 2023, 08:31:19 pm ---Is the programmer equally upset if you try it without any drive? --- End quote --- Well I don't have the video output (not possible, too much mess on the bench atm), but as far as the sound track is concerned then yes, it behaves exactly the same : one loud BEEP and that's all.... ... Again I think it's just that the floppy controller in the programmer is just not capable of handling that HD drive. --- End quote --- I wouldn't be so sure. Possibly the HD drive is just not present, that's a good sign. You can change that DS1/DS0 selection permanently and continue using the drive in PC with the 2nd connector of the cable. With some luck that's all you need to do. Generally I would be more concerned about the well being of that BASF drive than anything else. If you can't find a replacement your programmer's days are numbered. On the other hand, those drives are extremely reliable, maybe something else breaks first. I read that some drives have some leaking caps. If you want to check the initial state of the drive in the programmer check levels of pins 2, 4, 6 and 34. You can also check the same with interface cable disconnected, those low side pins are not very standard so their direction can change. Newer interfaces have much more differences but I guess those cases can be left aside. Is the earlier mentioned big zip file available somewhere? |
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