Author Topic: Vintage Parts from China  (Read 6983 times)

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Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2018, 08:34:44 am »
I am also intrested in those transistors for my 303 clone.
How do you know they are not fake ?, did you had the original to compare ?
They are expensive, 2SC2291 for 6 dollar 2SC1583 for 2 dollar, now i am using matched 945 transistors instead.
I want to find a matched single transistor replacement for the 1583, maybe 945s are not the same sound.
Did you pay 6 dollar for 1 transistor ?

No, I didn't have the originals to compare with. So yes, I cannot be for sure that they are not fake.
That being said, they match the specification of the original parts.
Even if I had the originals, comparison would be difficult: This is analog electronic, there are variations.

A lot of them look like desoldered (recycled) parts, and considering the fact that all transistors of the 303 are off the shelf very common, should I say cheap (in the 80s), japanese transitors. For instance, the 2SC1583 is used in a lot of japanese effect pedals.  I would say they are genuine.
Yes, I did pay 6 bucks. That's a lot for a part that was certainly under a dollar in the 80s.

As far as "sounding" goes, I've already built a Project 9090 and a Nava clones of the Roland TR909.
The 9090 was built using BC549 transistors and TL072 opamps. Standard current off the shelf parts.
Whereas the Nava was built using 2SC2603 transistors and M5218L opamps, like the original.
I can't hear the difference.

So I would say a transistor is a transistor, as long as it matches the specification, it does the job. There is no "magic".
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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2018, 12:11:47 pm »
I can vouch for Polida as well.
Never had an issue with them except in one case where the part never arrived but I got the refund quite quickly.
However the 'free' shipping times are awful  |O ........you could walk all the way from China in the time some parts arrive from there.
Polida is full of counterfeits, but as most buyers are inexperienced DIYers they can get away with this. Just google "polida2008 counterfeit". http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/268431-polida2008-real-thi-ef-ebay-fake-mosfets.html
Also check their negative feedback.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 12:15:45 pm by wraper »
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2018, 03:43:34 pm »
As far as "sounding" goes, I've already built a Project 9090 and a Nava clones of the Roland TR909.
The 9090 was built using BC549 transistors and TL072 opamps. Standard current off the shelf parts.
Whereas the Nava was built using 2SC2603 transistors and M5218L opamps, like the original.
I can't hear the difference.

Where did you get original 2SC2603 and 1115 transistors ?,
i builded a 909 bassdrum with BC549C transistors, it was completly different then my real tr909 bassdrum,
maybe i should try BC549B instead ?, or did you use the C also ?
i had to use a 220n capacitor instead of the original 330n for the pitch envelop to make it sound the same.
Also if i look to the waveform, it is different, the real 909 is more flat not so curve shaped volume.
So i am really intrested in a source for those original transistors, i already ordered ( hopefully as in the picture real ) M5218L opamps.
*i know it will not sound exact the same ever, only a 220n instead of 330n is a big difference*

Polida is full of counterfeits, but as most buyers are inexperienced DIYers they can get away with this. Just google "polida2008 counterfeit".

Can i assume my 50PCS SANYO 2SC536F are also fake then ?,
where else do i buy real 2SC536F transistors ?
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Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2018, 05:12:54 pm »
Where did you get original 2SC2603 and 1115 transistors ?,
i builded a 909 bassdrum with BC549C transistors, it was completly different then my real tr909 bassdrum,
maybe i should try BC549B instead ?, or did you use the C also ?
i had to use a 220n capacitor instead of the original 330n for the pitch envelop to make it sound the same.
Also if i look to the waveform, it is different, the real 909 is more flat not so curve shaped volume.
So i am really intrested in a source for those original transistors, i already ordered ( hopefully as in the picture real ) M5218L opamps.
*i know it will not sound exact the same ever, only a 220n instead of 330n is a big difference*

I got the 2SC2603 and 2SC1115 transistors with the PCBs from e-licktronic.
And these transistors are probably from utsource or another source in China.

I used BC549B (hfe = 200-450), 2SC2603F has hfe =250-500. So BC549B should substitute ok (at least for my hears).
BC549C has too high gain hfe=400-800.

220nF and 330nF is quite different and can definitely alter the shape of an envelop.
However, remember that the actual value of your capacitor value is specified within an error percentage (10% is usual).
Also note that your TR-909 is old now and your capacitor may age and drift.

I think there is a good chance that it'll work good with a BC549B.

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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2018, 06:38:18 pm »
Can i assume my 50PCS SANYO 2SC536F are also fake then ?,
where else do i buy real 2SC536F transistors ?
If you mean 50 pcs for $2, there is no chance they are SANYO (or ON semi) and probably have nothing to do with 2SC536F. Actually there is no Sanyo for quiet some time, so unless you get some really old stock (which you likely won't), you won't get sanyo. Best case is if you get from ON semiconductor, but as this transistor is obsolete, it could be newer NOS. In any case, when you try buying obsolete parts in shady places, usually they are counterfeits.

IMO this seems pretty safe https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRANSISTOR-2SC536-NPN-400mW-100mA-QTY-5-FUZZ-BOX/222821258832?hash=item33e12e9650:g:HwEAAOSwd0BVw3tH
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 06:49:04 pm by wraper »
 

Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2018, 07:09:46 pm »
If you mean 50 pcs for $2, there is no chance they are SANYO (or ON semi) and probably have nothing to do with 2SC536F. Actually there is no Sanyo for quiet some time, so unless you get some really old stock (which you likely won't), you won't get sanyo. Best case is if you get from ON semiconductor, but as this transistor is obsolete, it could be newer NOS. In any case, when you try buying obsolete parts in shady places, usually they are counterfeits.

IMO this seems pretty safe https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRANSISTOR-2SC536-NPN-400mW-100mA-QTY-5-FUZZ-BOX/222821258832?hash=item33e12e9650:g:HwEAAOSwd0BVw3tH

I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

You can buy a 100 brand new OnSemi BC549B from Mouser for 4.70 euros.
You can buy a 100 2SC945 (later models of 303 used them) from Tayda electronics for $3. Tayda is not Mouser, but they're very reputable.

2SC536F are "nothing special" transistors, produced in great quantities, and used in a lot japanese electronics.
It wouldn't be surprising that there are a lot of left overs or that they are desoldered ones.

If the guys at polida have no idea that these transistors have a special "mojo" because they're used in some legendary japanese synth and effect pedals, then $2 is the right price.
Otherwise, they would, like the ebay guy, sell them for $2 for 5, which is absurd. That ebay guy may even have bought them from a chinese source.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2018, 07:39:33 pm »
I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

You can buy a 100 brand new OnSemi BC549B from Mouser for 4.70 euros.
Without shipping and they are not osolete. Also you are completely wrong by assuming that price of BC549B and 2SC536 should be similar.
Quote
It wouldn't be surprising that there are a lot of left overs
They are not leftovers, best case they are something Chinese brewed like this: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/2/S/C/5/2SC536.shtml
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 07:44:32 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Tony_G

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2018, 11:34:20 pm »
Right now I'm in the same situation - I need to pick up a custom HP Part, a 1GG7-4218 microwave switch to be exact, as it appears that the designers of the piece of test gear used an "undocumented capability" of the HP part to simplify the circuit design.

My choices seem to be either to build up a replacement circuit and mount or just keep trying to buy ICs from China in the hope that one of them might actually have been pulled from original stock or off a board in working condition.

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Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2018, 12:08:50 am »
Quote
Without shipping and they are not osolete. Also you are completely wrong by assuming that price of BC549B and 2SC536 should be similar.

BC549s and 2SC536s have in common that they are/were both mass produced general purpose readily available off the shelf transistors.
We are not talking about transistors with a special feature, like very low noise 2sk170 transistors.
The 2SC536s were even replaced by 2SC945s in later batches of Roland TB-303, with no change in the circuit.
So I don't see why the pricing wouldn't be similar, unless transistors were much more expensive in the 80s/90s.

Mouser offers free Fedex shipping to France for order over 50 euros, don't know if it works for other countries.
Believe me, if you add some Nichicon capacitors, potentiometers, some TL072 or LM13700, it's pretty easy to reach 50 euros for a single project.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2018, 01:45:15 am »
Mouser offers free Fedex shipping to France for order over 50 euros, don't know if it works for other countries.
Believe me, if you add some Nichicon capacitors, potentiometers, some TL072 or LM13700, it's pretty easy to reach 50 euros for a single project.
You did not get the idea. That $1.80 includes shipping and handling cost, profit, paypal fee that cuts $ 0.35 + 3%, ebay fee. How much money do you think is left for transistors themselves?
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2018, 05:26:37 pm »
It seems the Tayda transistors are exact the same as china ebay transistors for the 733 & 945 & 1815.
You save shipping with china ebay and they are cheaper.

So if Tayda is not fake then ebay also not fake.
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Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2018, 12:46:23 am »
You did not get the idea. That $1.80 includes shipping and handling cost, profit, paypal fee that cuts $ 0.35 + 3%, ebay fee. How much money do you think is left for transistors themselves?

Not much, if any at all. Note that professional can have reduced PayPal fee for payment less than $10.
They must have got them for almost free, and they're basically dumping them.
I don't think it makes sense for them to make fakes, then selling them for so cheap.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2018, 02:43:46 am »
I don't think it makes sense for them to make fakes, then selling them for so cheap.
Then why ebay is full of counterfeit NE555, NE5532, LM358, logic ICs?
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-NE5532-real-vs-fake-opamp
 

Offline PoDuck

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2018, 03:16:54 am »
I have found odd parts from places overseas, such as littlediode in the UK, and part2go.com in Israel.  For some reason, littlediode stocks a bunch of NOS parts that I can no longer find in the US, and part2go seems to have loads of salvaged stuff from old test equipment.  Both have reasonably fast shipping to the US, and both have reasonable prices.

I have been lucky with the chinese parts too, but I wouldn't put it past them to either give you a non-working part, or a counterfeit part.  I don't buy direct from the seller though.  I have always bought my parts off of Ebay, where if there is a counterfeit, at least there is a way to get my money back via a third party.  Just make sure you can test the parts within the time allotted for complaining though.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2018, 02:23:23 pm »
Just make sure you can test the parts within the time allotted for complaining though.
The issue is, you need to do quiet extensive electrical tests and inspection under microscope to be more or less sure about the parts. Usually this is not realistic for hobbyist. And to be really sure, you would need to X-ray or decap the part, you need to have known genuine component for comparison as well.
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2018, 02:25:18 pm »
Then why ebay is full of counterfeit NE555, NE5532, LM358, logic ICs?
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-NE5532-real-vs-fake-opamp

Here you read : It could also be an economic warfare: each fake chip sold means 7 cents less in US GDP and Ti sales.
This is very true, for this reason you better buy in your own shop;
only wait, what if your shop is also buying china made japanese parts.

That ebay guy may even have bought them from a chinese source.

https://www.reichelt.de/?ACTION=3;ARTICLE=16527;SEARCH=2sc2603

Even Reichelt my shop sells chinese made japanese parts.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2018, 02:37:12 pm »
https://www.reichelt.de/?ACTION=3;ARTICLE=16527;SEARCH=2sc2603

Even Reichelt my shop sells chinese made japanese parts.
They don't claim it to be ON semi or something. If component has the same part number but made by different manufacturers, it will have completely different die inside. Usually it's OK substitution but not always. Specs may be somewhat different or sometimes even not specified parameters could make the difference in certain circuits. That's given that you buy second source genuine part to begin with. If you don't care about tightly meeting all specs, just use close enough part which is currently produced and don't buy pig in a poke.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 02:41:17 pm by wraper »
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2018, 02:43:30 pm »
So china parts are good exept if they lie about brand.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2018, 02:50:10 pm »
So china parts are good exept if they lie about brand.
They lie about anything, component internals often are completely irrelevant to the part number written on top of it. Also audio equipment is something where second source parts may affect performance. Even if you compare genuine components like 1117 LDOs, parts from different manufacturers have like up to 5 times die area difference between best and worst. That says something about reliability you may expect from them.
 

Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2018, 07:29:50 pm »
I don't think it makes sense for them to make fakes, then selling them for so cheap.
Then why ebay is full of counterfeit NE555, NE5532, LM358, logic ICs?
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-NE5532-real-vs-fake-opamp

I don't dispute the fact there are counterfeits around.
Personally, for current production parts, like TL072, I buy from Mouser, Farnell, or Conrad.
Usually, I try to check if it is an authorized retailer.
Only for obsolete/out of production parts, I buy from ebay or chinese broker.
 
I was talking about the specific case of the 2SC536F.
Why do fakes of them and sell them so cheap, like getting rid of obsolete parts nobody wants ?
I would have been more concerned if they were selling 5 transistors for $2.

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Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2018, 09:15:02 pm »
Why do fakes of them and sell them so cheap, like getting rid of obsolete parts nobody wants ?
When parts become obsolete, they usually become more expensive, not cheaper  |O. Unless they are so old that have no use. Why do you think nobody wants them, why do you assume there is any big supply of them left? Googling suggests otherwise, people are discussing where to get them.
 

Offline anotherlin

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2018, 12:29:47 am »
When parts become obsolete, they usually become more expensive, not cheaper  |O. Unless they are so old that have no use. Why do you think nobody wants them, why do you assume there is any big supply of them left? Googling suggests otherwise, people are discussing where to get them.

Exactly, these parts would be expected to be more expensive.
So why sell 50 of them for $2 including shipping?
Why not do like the other guy, sell 5 of them for $2 without shipping cost, and do some profit?
They've no idea and they're dumping them. So I don't think they're cheating (at least intentionally) on this one.

Being a young adult in the 90s, like many, I was a big fan of electronic music.
And building a clone TB-303 sounding exactly like the original, is like a dream.
So yes, there are people (like me) fanatic about getting these transistors.
But except for us, who needs some 2SC536F specifically? That was a general purpose transistor.
It's not that nobody wants them. It's just that "we" are almost nobody (compared to the industry). 
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Offline JanJansen

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2018, 05:30:54 pm »
i had to use a 220n capacitor instead of the original 330n for the pitch envelop to make it sound the same.

I guess i had a old model before a certain serial number, they changed the 220n to 330n.
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Offline COSMOS2K

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2018, 11:27:03 am »
Hello:

A few days ago I asked UTSource.net a lot of electronic components, since I am dedicated to repair test and measurement equipment, I also repair radioamateur equipment, I have ordered some parts to repair radio equipment, including an RF amplifier module of a Icom station, this module is for the 1300 MHz band.

The surprise when I installed it was very big since the module does not work, it is FALSE, after many e-mails to UTSource I have not found a solution to this problem.

Actually the guarantee policy they use in China leaves much to be desired, since it has nothing to do with the policies that are used in almost the entire world. But the worst of all is that this module is clearly seen to be counterfeit, it is not even like the original that Mitsubishi manufactures, this has already been investigated some time ago, and it can be deduced that there are people in China who are counterfeiters of certain parts, and also the quality control that UTSource makes of its products is bad, this affects the client who does not buy from this seller, I will not do it anymore, since I consider that the general Chinese quality is bad , in addition to falsifying many products, and this is not admissible, you can see on the internet people who complain about the same to thousands, but the worst of all is that we do not learn from this and return to give our money in exchange for counterfeit parts.

Greetings.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Vintage Parts from China
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2018, 11:45:24 am »
The surprise when I installed it was very big since the module does not work, it is FALSE, after many e-mails to UTSource I have not found a solution to this problem.
It's not a surprise, it's a norm. It's quiet a rare occasion when old RF parts from China happen to be genuine.
 


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