Author Topic: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault (FIXED)  (Read 7135 times)

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Offline edy

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Water heater not working, trying to track down fault (FIXED)
« on: December 28, 2016, 07:15:51 am »
I have a compact electrical water heater and it has stopped heating. It wasn't a gradual stop. Either the element burnt out or there is something wrong with the thermostat control. I am not sure what best practice is to start. I'm pretty sure the main junction box breaker works. So are there any techniques to debugging the issue and finding the cause? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I was thinking of checking continuity of element. Also the reset fuse perhaps checking continuity across it. Could be thermostat limiter. I am hoping the controller is at fault and so tank doesn't need replacement as that would need a plumber.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 11:52:54 pm by edy »
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Online Ian.M

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2016, 07:36:41 am »
Its a simple series circuit: L - double pole thermal trip (red button) - thermostat - element - back through the thermal trip - N.
Odds are the thermostat has failed, as it takes a beating repeatedly switching to maintain temperature.  With the feed isolated, check its continuity - should be shorted when cold, as it opens when hot.

An element failure without a short to Earth that would trip the breaker is *extremely* unlikely, but you can check the element resistance and calculate it from the wattage by R=V2/P to see if its in the right ballpark.  Also check resistance to earth with the element isolated.
 

Offline Fisher77

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2016, 07:40:31 am »
Kill the breaker to the water heater if you have not already.

You will have to ohm the element out. Should be between 10 to 16 ohms.
A 3500 watt element should be around 16 ohms. A 4500 watt between 12 and 13 ohms. A 5500 watt between 10 and 11 ohms.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 07:44:37 am by Fisher77 »
 

Offline DTJ

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2016, 07:48:12 am »
If the element is open circuit and you are capable of DIY then swap it out yourself.
I replaced mine at a cost of $40. Having a plumber do it would have cost 5 times as much.
Just be safe and turn off the circuit breaker and your mains switch when working on it.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2016, 01:14:27 pm »
Does it click when you open the water flow, the most common fault is the differential pressure switch, as that operates the most, and can shift in trip point. Then the thermostat, then the element in that order can fail.

Power off, turn on the water and check from terminal to terminal for continuity, going from point to point along the chain. When you get the open there is the fault. This applies to the instant type, and as a first test try pressing the red reset button, and see if it works then.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 01:16:34 pm by SeanB »
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2016, 02:27:48 pm »
Does it click when you open the water flow, the most common fault is the differential pressure switch, as that operates the most, and can shift in trip point.
The wiring diagram is for an immersion heater not a 'instant' demand heater, so no flow switch.
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 10:24:31 pm »
Also it's a 120v unit identified by the white & black coming in so the heater will be 1500W ~ 13 ohms.  If it's one of those little ones you can't substitute a 240v element because they're too long and won't fit.
If it is the element expect it to be in there super-tight.  Try to find a socket to fit since getting a wrench in there is pretty tricky.
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 10:56:35 pm »
North America has the cheap-skate habit of using a glass enamel lined mild steel tank for hot water heaters (unlike the copper or stainless tanks used in Europe).  If you have to pull the element, and you don't use a socket with a T-bar driver, there is a risk of the side forces flexing the tank round the element port, which can crack the enamel and lead to rapid tank failure.  If you have to pull the element you should change the sacrificial anode at the same time unless less than 1/3 of it has wasted away.
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2016, 01:15:12 am »
All of the above are good checks and actions.  The other question that I would have is what type of water that you have.  If you have high concentrations of calcium in your water, the area at the bottom of your tank will build up with calcium granules which will eventually surround the heating element causing a problem. If you find this buildup in your tank, you may want to get a processing system in line with your water heater that will mitigate this buildup.  After the element is surrounded with these solids, the system has a difficult time regulating the water temperature due to the insulating effect of all the granules around the heating element.

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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2016, 04:12:26 am »
First off - be careful measuring line voltage.  I'm taking for granted that you have a meter or test light capable of doing so, and that you yourself are comfortable with making such measurements.

That being said -

The first thing I'd do is put an AC voltmeter across the input terminals (1 and 3 on the high limit control on the diagram) to make sure you have power to the unit itself.  If that's good, I'd then check for voltage across the element terminals.  If there's line voltage there and it's cold, it's likely that the element is toast.

If there is low or no voltage across the element, start measuring across the contacts of the high limit and t-stat to determine which is open.  On the high limit switch, measure across terminals 1 and 2 (left side), then across 3 and 4 (right side).  In this case, you DON'T want to see voltage - these should be closed contacts with little or no drop.  If the high limit passes muster, move on to the thermostat, and measure between terminals 1 and 2.  Again, if things are good you should have little or no voltage drop if the contacts are closed.  This series of tests should quickly isolate the fault.

If the element was at some partial voltage rather than at full line voltage, you should find the 'missing' voltage across one of the sets of contacts being measured here (series circuit).  The set of supposedly closed contacts showing appreciable voltage is the faulty part.

While a bit more dangerous due to line voltage testing, doing it this way looks at the circuit under actual operating conditions and will show poor/partial contacts that fail under load that straight resistance checking might not indicate.

Just to reiterate, be cautious checking line voltage.

-Pat
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 04:14:23 am by Cubdriver »
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Online Ian.M

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2016, 04:51:31 am »
First off - be careful measuring line voltage.  I'm taking for granted that you have a meter or test light capable of doing so, and that you yourself are comfortable with making such measurements.
...
While a bit more dangerous due to line voltage testing, doing it this way looks at the circuit under actual operating conditions and will show poor/partial contacts that fail under load that straight resistance checking might not indicate.
I'm not surprised no one else encouraged the O.P. to test it live.   Unless he's got a CAT III or better rated meter (not Chinese fake 'Cat III'), with fused test leads with screw-on clip ends, + the experience with electrical installations to use it safely, its not a good idea.  One slip and it could be 'game over'.  If he had the required experience, then why the heck would he be asking how to diagnose a simple series circuit like this?

However if its just a matter of confirming that power is reaching the heater, and a suitable meter isn't available, a low wattage mains incandescent light bulb in an insulated holder could be patched in (with the supply isolated while connecting it) across the mains in terminals (1,3) of the cutout ('High Limit Control').   Everything else can be tested with the circuit isolated, except for the possibility some part is going open circuit when hot - for which a clamp-on current meter on the incoming black wire + a test lamp across the element will be helpful.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 04:54:44 am by Ian.M »
 

Offline edy

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 12:11:20 am »
Thanks for the suggestions. I've had a go at testing continuity at least along the control module pictured (see attachment with labelled terminals). I've also tried the element and I'm getting wonky results which I don't understand.... I will explain below.

By the way, the control module is completely disconnected when I am measuring it. It is not in circuit. Same goes for the heater element (which is still screwed into the base of the tank).

Here are the results:

1. From the picture I posted, I get continuity along the left side from #1 --> #2 ---> #5 ---> #6.

#1 is the black input from the mains. It is continuous to #2 which indicates the RESET switch is working ok and not tripped. There is a metal contact physically connecting #2 to #5 so obviously they are really the same node and continuous. #5 is input to the thermostat control/limit, and #6 is the output. I have continuity between #5 and #6 as well, indicating the thermostat limiter is closed switch (since tank is cold) and has not failed either. So #1 --> #6 is all working.... and #6 connects up to the heater element.

2. From the picture posted, I get continuity along the right side from #3 --> #4.

#3 is the white input from the mains. It is continuous to #4 which also confirms the RESET switch is working. If the RESET was tripped, it wouldn't connect #1 to #2, and #3 to #4. Then #4 is connected to the other side of the heater element.

So far... all ok. The mains BLACK at #1 is getting through to #6 and to one side of the heater element, and the mains WHITE at #3 is getting through to #4 which is connected to the other side of the heater element. There must be electricity getting to the heater. I could connect a light bulb socket to #6 and #4 and it should light up. If I use say a 30W bulb, at 120 V, that will put 0.25 A across the RESET and thermostat (P=VA=120V x 0.25A=30W). I know the cold bulb will draw higher current, but it shouldn't trip the RESET and I would imagine quickly settle to 30W and give me a glow indicating I am getting power from the mains to the tank and through the control box. The only variable then would be the heater element.

Do you think that light bulb test is a good one to run next? I don't want to touch live mains. I can hook it all up and stand by the fuse box, trip the mains fuse and see if my bulb lights up from a safe distance away.

3. The heater element/coil - I'm a bit confused. :-//

I hooked up my DMM on ohms across the terminals of the element. At first it was showing resistance in the few K, then started to rise, then it went high to many M, then it started falling again, never quite settling. As soon as I take off the DMM and try it again, it starts at a different number. It never gets to some stable number. At first I thought maybe there is some "inductive" effect happening or even capacitive, but I can't rationalize it because if it is just a simple element/coil it should reach a value fairly quickly.

Anyways, for now the heater element seems to be giving me very strange readings measuring ohms on my DMM. So I'm a bit confused. I am more confident that the RESET and thermostat limit part is working correctly, and that the coil is buggered up but that still doesn't explain how the ohms changes all over the place and creeps up and down seemingly randomly. I must be doing something wrong.

If the coil was broken, it would be infinite resistance, open circuit, not vary with time?  :-//

« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 12:24:37 am by edy »
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Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2016, 12:27:25 am »


If the coil was broken, it would be infinite resistance, open circuit, not vary with time?  :-//

Your heater element is broken.  If there is still water in the tank and possibly some crud, you will get strange readings.

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Online Johnny10

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2016, 12:29:16 am »
Sounds like element is bad.
Should only read between 10-20 ohms.
No other reading.

I fixed mine two months ago.
They make a special tool to remove element. Only 4-6 dollars.

From The web.

Turning on the faucets for a relaxing shower only to find tepid or icy water makes for a frustrating experience. When an electric hot water heater’s elements short out or burn through, cool water is the result. Typically, the lower element goes first, but that’s not always the case. Fortunately, a few quick electrical tests reveal which element you must replace in order to restore hot water to your home.
1

Turn off the power to the electric hot water heater. Some units are wired to plug into a wall socket, and power is shut off simply by unplugging them. Most units are hard wired directly into the home’s circuitry, so turn the breaker for the hot water heater to “OFF” at the home’s main electrical panel.
2

Remove the two wires connected to the water heater element and push them aside. Unscrew the mounting hardware with a screwdriver, slip the wires out and bend them out of your way.
3

Set the multitester to measure ohms, or resistance.
4

Touch a probe on the multitester to each screw on the element. If you get no reading, or a maximum reading, the element is bad. Elements do have some resistance, so a reading of 10-16 ohms is normal, with higher ohm readings for 3,500 watt elements and lower readings for 5,500 watt elements. The wattage of your element is printed on the plastic block between the two screws where the wires were attached.
5

Touch one probe to a screw on the element and the other probe to bare metal on the water heater. Any ohm reading or slight movement of the multitester’s needle indicates an element that has shorted out. Check each screw on both elements.
6

Touch one probe to the element screw and the other to the metal frame of the element (but not to the other screw). Any needle movement or reading indicates an element that has shorted out. Check each screw on both elements in the same manner.
Tektronix TDS7104, DMM4050, HP 3561A, HP 35665, Tek 2465A, HP8903B, DSA602A, Tek 7854, 7834, HP3457A, Tek 575, 576, 577 Curve Tracers, Datron 4000, Datron 4000A, uTracer, HP5335A, EIP534B 20GHz Frequency Counter, TrueTime Rubidium, Sencore LC102, Tek TG506, TG501, SG503, HP 8568B
 

Offline salbayeng

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2016, 12:34:51 am »
Hi ,
Your meter indications indicate the element is faulty , it has  a split in it , this allows water into the internal part of the element, the resistance element then corrodes and fails .

Water in the element gives you flaky DMM readings, typically the resistance will be low initially then rise to megohms, if you reverse the leads, it will go low(or negative) then rise to megohms.

The element can fail due to a calcium buildup in the bottom of the heater, if it is high enough to cover the element, then the element will overheat as it can't circulate the water, and melt the casing at one spot.

You need to flush out the calcium gunk when you go to change the element, there are YouTube videos on how to do this with an American tank.  The drain port is connected so it will siphon most of the gunk out. If water stops coming out of the drain port it might be clogged  (or air locked )( not actually empty) poke a wire down the drain and/or open the relief valve to avoid a surprise when you remove the element.

Getting the element out can be tricky, I think the US ones are mostly screw in, so you will need the correct sized socket, you also need to apply the torque in such a way as you don't damage the bottom of the tank, i.e. you need to use a T handle wrench.

You will also need to change/replace the sacrificial anode, (see youtube) somewhere on top of your heater there will be a hexagonal plug looking like it's plugging an unused port, it actually has a rod of zinc attached.

(edit).. Also the blown-open element will als0 generate copious amounts of gas (mainly hydrogen) , so the last time you used the heater you would have noticed a massive amount of "air" coming out the tap (faucet?)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 12:42:06 am by salbayeng »
 

Offline salbayeng

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2016, 12:51:39 am »
Quote
North America has the cheap-skate habit of using a glass enamel lined mild steel tank for hot water heaters (unlike the copper or stainless tanks used in Europe).
We have glass lined steel tanks in Australia too (solar HWS get stainless though).
If you don't religiously change the anode every 5 years they will die around 7-10 yrs of age.
Usually indicated by a trickle of rusty water from around the thermostat area, if ignored turns into a fountain.

We get a lot of scale too and it gunks up the pressure regulator/check/relief valves.
(The old place had tank water, and the water heater was going strong there after 25yrs (and is probably still there! anode was ~ 2/3 long when checked at 25yrs)

If you forget to suck the gunk out of the bottom of the heater with anode changes, then it will blow out the heater element (words of experience there!)
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2016, 01:20:05 am »
Home depot carried those little elements last time I needed one a few years ago.  Shoot, I was just there.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2016, 01:50:19 am »
I am tyring to drain the tank completely so I can inspect it better. It is a "water saver" tank, one of those tiny half-size ones, mounted up near the ceiling in the office.

First I turned off all the hot water supplies to all sinks/faucets... especially the "mixing type" single-handle type, since I notice pressure from the cold side will push water to the hot side. The only hot tap I left open was to a sink that has separate knobs for hot and cold water.

That way, I can close the cold water knob, open up the hot water fully to allow air in to the system so that it bleeds the negative pressure... otherwise it takes forever for the water to drain out of the tank.

I also noticed that if I open up the pressure relief valve at the side of the tank it will also let air bleed in and drain the tank faster. My only concern is if it is safe to use that for this purpose, or will it cause any damage by being open for so long while the tank drains?

Question 2 - I don't see any anode on the tank. Only a heater element. There is nothing else sticking itself into the tank. Am I missing something here or do some mini-tanks not have these? It os a GSW Water Heating, Model SS12SEB15 Cat No. A1229. 1500 W lower element. Capacity 43 L.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 01:53:31 am by edy »
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Offline Bud

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2016, 01:55:18 am »
Water heater troubleshooting?  You need a 1GHz Keysight scope.

Sorry could not resist. ;D Many of you know what I am talking about
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Online tautech

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2016, 01:56:00 am »
Edy, you need confirm there is an incoming mains supply to terminals 1 and 3.

Don't know how Canada controls their HW heating but here it's sometimes a control circuit from your supplier so they can remotely control their network loadings. This will likely control a relay and we all know they can sometimes go bad.

OR

A Ripple switch control configuration which is wired in series with the live phase and is activated by your network supplier by means of overlaying a specific ripple on the supply to open or close said switch.
These can go bad too, sometimes they get out of phase figuratively, meaning when everybody else has HW heating with their ripple switch in the on mode yours might be in the off state. Seen it happen here but it's not common.

Either method and their mode/s can be diagnosed easily with just a DMM, some thought and a little know how.  ;)
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Offline DTJ

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2016, 02:00:52 am »


Question 2 - I don't see any anode on the tank. Only a heater element. There is nothing else sticking itself into the tank. Am I missing something here or do some mini-tanks not have these?

My HWS is solar with a stainless steel tank. It does not have a sacrificial anode. I understand that stainless tanks don't have the anodes.

Was your tank stainless or the vitreous coated steel?
 

Offline edy

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2016, 03:24:22 am »
Here are the relevant documents:

http://johnwoodwaterheaters.com/files/literatures/en/Space%20Saver%20English%20SE106N%20Historic.pdf

http://www.gsw-wh.com/assets/documents/current/spec-sheets/GSW%20Spacer%20Saver%20English%20GSE306N_0116.pdf

So I have model # GSW Water Heating, Model SS12SEB15 Cat No. A1229. According to the spec sheets linked above, it is a SIDE ENTRY SINGLE ELEMENT MODEL (6 year tank and 1 year parts warranty).  Capacity 9 Imp. Gal. = 12 US Gal. = 43 L. 1500 W/120 V. It claims to have a removable anode, and is glass-lined tank, galvanized bottom pan.

I found the manual here:

http://www.johnwoodwaterheaters.com/files/products/en/Space%20Saver%20Electric%206-19G%20Models%20Manual%20English%2061515%20Rev%20P.pdf

Looks like the anode is located at #3... How the heck am I going to remove it? They mounted it up near the ceiling, there is barely a foot of clearance above it. Those bastards!  :-DD

Seriously, I will have to somehow get up there and drill a hole through the drywall. I don't remember, I hope it is a tiled drop-ceiling like the rest of the office so I can pop up the tile and access and remove the anode rod if needed. And so the plot thickens.

As far as ohm rating, we have P=VI and V=IR. Substituting I=V/R in the P=VI we get P=V2/R, and then if we multiply both sides by R/P we get R=V2/P = (120 x 120)/1500 =  14400/1500 = 9.6 ohm. And then I=12.5 Amp. So it draws 12.5 Amp when 120 V is put across a 9.6 ohm resistance. I should be measuring around this amount on the element when it is out of the tank, and a new one should be that as well I presume.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 03:32:59 am by edy »
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Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2016, 03:35:08 am »
I once drilled a hole through the floor to get one out.  Fortunately carpeted so patching the hole was easy  :)
The blowoff is designed to be opened like that, but doing often causes it to leak especially if old.  It's a case of letting sleeping dogs lie.
Good luck finding a replacement anode!  Not many suppliers carry them where I live.  You'll probably have to get a long one and cut it down with a hacksaw.  Also GSW puts these in tighter than even the elements, I think to prevent you from trying to replace them.  2' long breaker bar at the minimum.
Don't know where I went wrong with my math:  you're right 9.6 ohms.  Also I was picturing one of those tiny 7.5l water heaters: you may be able to use one of those bigger elements which are much easier to find.
 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 03:48:42 am by Paul Moir »
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2016, 03:51:12 am »
This is what you need

http://www.rona.ca/en/water-heater-element-wrench
http://www.rona.ca/en/water-heater-element

I don't remember them even being that much last time I did it (but that was a couple of houses back).  A decent plumbing supply store will have the wrench, even the local Shenzen Tire probably stocks the stuff.

 

Online Ian.M

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Re: Water heater not working, trying to track down fault
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2016, 03:54:02 am »
Before butchering the drywall, it would be worth trying snaking an inspection camera in through the element port and trying to image the anode to see how badly wasted it is, and look at the interior condition of the tank.  Tank replacement may be the best/cheapest option.  If the tank's OK, you can get flexible anodes that consist of segments of Magnesium or Aluminium alloy on a wire that can be fitted with less top access clearance.  The old anode can be removed piecemeal - pull it out as far as possible, clamp with molegrips across the port, hacksaw off the length you've pulled, and continue till its all out.
 


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