Author Topic: What more i can do?  (Read 36964 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #275 on: November 21, 2024, 07:08:46 am »

It would be very good to know the chip names from the back side.

I guess they are bunch of buffers and FFs.
From Top left,
IC92 74F04,  IC10 IC11 IC12 IC13  74LS245,

Bottom Left
IC29 IC91 74LS373, IC4 IC90 74LS244, IC55 74LS245, IC65 74F30,

Bottom right
IC43 IC44 74AC04
 
The following users thanked this post: Harry_22

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #276 on: November 21, 2024, 07:16:45 am »
What is a signal monitored here? CLK?

As it is connected to the IC5 IC, i guess the output of IC5 leads to this, not sure though
Ok. Take the datasheet on IC5 and mark the involved pins. Output that goes to LED (via resistor) and corresponded input that goes to processor pin (what pin?)

Could you catch two different traces of this signal (Green LED signal on non-working board). This is very important to see that they are different.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 08:06:27 am by Harry_22 »
 

Offline Poroit

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 198
  • Country: au
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #277 on: November 21, 2024, 11:57:00 am »
G'day _Test222,

Sorry but none of my contacts at Komatsu Australia (KMA) have been able find any information on the Ironmole.

I assume you contacted KMJ directly.
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #278 on: November 21, 2024, 02:56:49 pm »
By the way, there was a time when Japanese built protection into their electronic equipment. I learned this legend from the gray beards. I was thinking about it and suddenly saw some phenomenon (see the picture).
This is the other side of digitalization.

So we start almost from scratch.

Please make out this needle. To do this reduce time/division ratio.
With the same sweep time look again at OE, some remarkable Address and Data signals.
Submit here the results. It is up to you.

Could you also confirm that the fault-start results are different time to time.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 07:58:34 pm by Harry_22 »
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #279 on: November 22, 2024, 12:01:51 am »


Could you catch two different traces of this signal (Green LED signal on non-working board). This is very important to see that they are different.

Here,
1st is RED led, same on both board
2nd is Green led Glow
3rd is no glow
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #280 on: November 22, 2024, 12:02:41 am »
...
Also the small peak near no glow
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #281 on: November 22, 2024, 12:03:53 am »

Ok. Take the datasheet on IC5 and mark the involved pins. Output that goes to LED (via resistor) and corresponded input that goes to processor pin (what pin?)


ok here
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #282 on: November 22, 2024, 12:05:08 am »

Please make out this needle. To do this reduce time/division ratio.

Here, E pin needle
 
The following users thanked this post: Harry_22

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #283 on: November 22, 2024, 01:25:57 am »

Please make a broom from the wire, connect it to the multimter with fast short ring responce and "clean" all the back side.
We have to know all the points with A8 address.
Could you check also the data bus. For instance Q1.

It would be good to ring All the Data and Address busses for short to +5V and Gnd. Just to be shure.


I do not see any short to GND and VCC.
here are images of All pin short of BIOS
1. These are common on both High and Low of BIOS. We have 2 BIOS so
2. They are high bios Data pins to F(Flash Memory SIM2) and to IC9 Tornado
3. They are high bios Data pins to Other ICs
4. They are low bios Data pins to F(Flash Memory SIM2) and to IC9 Tornado
5. They are low bios Data pins to Other ICs

I am still looking for more connections.
A8 is Number 27  and Q1 is number 14.

Note: Here Numbers represent the IC number, both BIOS as well as other ICS.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2024, 01:28:12 am by 222Lab_Test222 »
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #284 on: November 22, 2024, 04:59:51 am »

Please make out this needle. To do this reduce time/division ratio.

Here, E pin needle
Hi!
Please attach Output Enable trace with the same 5us/div.
Next check the Address and Data signals.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #285 on: November 22, 2024, 05:27:48 am »

Please attach Output Enable trace with the same 5us/div.
Next check the Address and Data signals.

Here is Output Enable.

Do you want all address and data bus in 5us/div?
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #286 on: November 22, 2024, 05:31:10 am »
No. It is up to you. You can change time/div because some signals will be long.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #287 on: November 22, 2024, 05:36:27 am »
Did not we did it already? #261 i guess
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #288 on: November 22, 2024, 06:03:20 am »
Did not we did it already? #261 i guess
Yes, we did but at another scale.
Let you better get CE and OE traces from working board. The scale is 5us/div
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #289 on: November 22, 2024, 07:26:53 am »

Yes, we did but at another scale.
Let you better get CE and OE traces from working board. The scale is 5us/div
[/quote]

Here It is. Working Board Images.
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #290 on: November 22, 2024, 02:44:58 pm »
We just have corrected a human error made during diagnosis.
Actually, we didn’t notice the small needle pulse on the oscilloscope screen.
Conclusion for the future - it is necessary to observe the signal at different sweep durations.

In general, the situation is as follows. BIOS upload starts on the faulty board and continues for 12.5 µs.
The green LED probably indicates some important process - for example, data loading. OP found that his behavior changes from time to time. This means that the process is unstable.
That is, during the loading process an error inevitably occurs, but not always in the same place.

You can try to confirm this by observing any of the CE, OE, Address or Data signals.

Attached are explanatory drawings. I tried to make them intuitive.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2024, 05:36:12 am by Harry_22 »
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #291 on: November 22, 2024, 09:03:45 pm »
I would suspect the 74ACT08 Ic IC7, and C10, as those are the most likely thing to fail, and then RTC does not update, which is detected by the BIOS.
Recently I had the situation where a chip that had been attached to a battery for a couple of decades deteriorated.
In our case, the clock crystal is suspended directly from IC23 RTC without any logic between.

This node with battery also haunts me. Multiple manifestations of an apparently similar malfunction could very likely belong to it.
Especially in light of new circumstances when BIOS tries to boot.
 

Offline Poroit

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 198
  • Country: au
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #292 on: November 23, 2024, 03:57:51 am »
G'day All,

Please correct me if I am wrong...but I assume the BIOS is on the Flash Memory.

Are you convinced that the BIOS on the Faulty Board is not corrupt?

BTW
I see that 2nd Hand Underground Sewer Boring Machines range from $100,000 to $600,000 USD !!

I can see why the OP wants to fix it.
 

Offline fzabkar

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2807
  • Country: au
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #293 on: November 23, 2024, 04:51:43 am »
The BIOS was tested on a working board. In any case, the OP is waiting for a chip programmer. Hopefully a dump will tell us something.
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #294 on: November 23, 2024, 04:58:47 am »

BTW
I see that 2nd Hand Underground Sewer Boring Machines range from $100,000 to $600,000 USD !!

I can see why the OP wants to fix it.
Hello colleagues!

Yes, BIOS in EPROM.

Now it’s clear why OP was afraid to disassemble the working board.
I always preferred not to know the price of the equipment being repaired.
You see, this just gets in the way!
 

Online Sorama

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 208
  • Country: be
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #295 on: November 23, 2024, 07:40:23 am »
The BIOS was tested on a working board. In any case, the OP is waiting for a chip programmer. Hopefully a dump will tell us something.

And did the bios of non working board worked fine in the working board?
 

Offline fzabkar

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2807
  • Country: au
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #296 on: November 23, 2024, 08:02:01 pm »
The BIOS was tested on a working board. In any case, the OP is waiting for a chip programmer. Hopefully a dump will tell us something.

And did the bios of non working board worked fine in the working board?

Obviously, yes, otherwise we wouldn't be here. ;-)
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #297 on: November 24, 2024, 10:49:51 am »
I still couldnt get my hand on that Universal Programmar, I guess It will take some more time.

On the other hand, where are we heading?
I am lost now.

Still until now, Harry and fzabkar thank you all lot for all efforts.

And i have a doubt, when i search online I heard or maybe a rumour that RTC lifespan is about 10 years in avaerage, Is it true?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 10:52:04 am by 222Lab_Test222 »
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 287
  • Country: jp
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #298 on: November 24, 2024, 10:51:01 am »

Now it’s clear why OP was afraid to disassemble the working board.
I always preferred not to know the price of the equipment being repaired.
You see, this just gets in the way!

I dont mind damaging more to non working board, But if i have to touch something to working board, my hand trimbles and heart start to ache. ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

Offline Harry_22

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 603
  • Country: 00
Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #299 on: November 24, 2024, 12:07:16 pm »
I dont mind damaging more to non working board, But if i have to touch something to working board, my hand trimbles and heart start to ache. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Take it easy!

On the other hand, where are we heading?
And i have a doubt, when i search online I heard or maybe a rumour that RTC lifespan is about 10 years in avaerage, Is it true?
This is lifespan for the battery embedded RTC.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg5721295/#msg5721295

On the other hand, where are we heading?
I am lost now.
You are not lost.
The collective mind leads you by the hand!

By the way, check IC23 Pin10 and Pin11 at the same 5us/div scale. As usual, working and non-working.
Please also confirm that during the BIOS loading an error inevitably occurs, but not always in the same place.
To do this observe several of the CE, OE, Address or Data signals.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 02:24:52 pm by Harry_22 »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf