Author Topic: What more i can do?  (Read 43071 times)

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Offline Analog Kid

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #550 on: January 07, 2025, 10:31:10 pm »
Pardon my intrusion into this thread--I'm by no means qualified to comment at all on any of your diagnostic procedures here--but I've been following this whole excruciatingly painful process from afar. Just one question:

Has the OP gone through the board, removed any socketed chips, and thoroughly cleaned the contacts (at least on the chips if not the sockets) before reinserting them?
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #551 on: January 09, 2025, 07:38:14 am »
Pardon my intrusion into this thread--I'm by no means qualified to comment at all on any of your diagnostic procedures here--but I've been following this whole excruciatingly painful process from afar. Just one question:

Has the OP gone through the board, removed any socketed chips, and thoroughly cleaned the contacts (at least on the chips if not the sockets) before reinserting them?
Yes it has done multiple times.
I always clean with isopropyl alcohol.
 

Offline SMdude

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #552 on: January 09, 2025, 12:04:54 pm »
I'm not sure if this has been covered, it probably has, but I have not read the whole thread.

The 74ls245's have you replaced these on a non working board?

Have you tried replacing all easily obtainable(and fittable!) parts on a non working board?

Sometimes for the cost of the parts involved and time to fit vs the time to actually diagnose which exact part is causing a fault it is better to just replace parts until it works or not! Also by replacing parts you can rule out which parts are not causing the problem.
 

Offline m k

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #553 on: January 09, 2025, 02:23:26 pm »

We can also be pretty sure that Harry didn't do any mistakes.


@222Lab_Test222, when the time permits check our measurements.
Measure directly on the chip pin. Start with non-working board IC16 data.
The datas are same, no change at all

I'm not sure that you are as accurate as you should.

If you're not changing components yet do ROM data measurements again twice.

First take chips out and measure if you can find any rational connections between ROM socket and inside socket ICs.
(skip pins that you already know are not connected)
Any of socket pins 10, 11, 12, 22 or 24
to
any of F32 or HC125 pins 3, 6, 8 or 11.

Then put ROMs to their correct positions and measure data lines as you did earlier.
Compare old and ne results with strict and pedantic way.
Don't concentrate to timing, concentrate to width of down period,

If your earlier measurement was something else than CPU pins then measure data lines again from CPU pins.
Are they same or just similar?

Then put ROMs to their swapped positions and measure data lines again.
Do old and new comparison using the same strict and pedantic way.
This time concentrate to shape of high parts after a rising curve, like D4 and its lower noise parts and D0 and its repetition of changes.
For D6 check timing between later drop and earlier rising, and active shape after that drop.

And do it again from CPU pins if earlier measurement was from some other position.
Are they same or just similar?

If data measurement result is actually same all the time we can be sure that ROMs have something to do with measuring results.
Reasons can be many, but we must be sure, or it continues to be a wild goose chase.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 
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Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #554 on: January 09, 2025, 02:26:01 pm »
Hi,

222Lab_Test222
Returned to reply #283 - very helpful.
-
All the diagrams I post are for informational purposes only, so they may contain errors and inaccuracies.
Keep this in mind.
There will be changes and adjustments.
-
Please take another picture of the back side of the DRAM FRAM modules, having removed the paper stickers beforehand.
Thank you.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #555 on: January 10, 2025, 04:09:47 am »
Its getting colder and colder day by day and Unfortunately i got Fever,

will be back after i been healthy,

Cya

Thanks for all replies
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #556 on: January 24, 2025, 06:43:14 am »
I am back guys. I have 2 things to say.
1. I am looking for upgrade to this motherboard with similiar work purpose
2. I have stop to repair this for a while

So anyone who can suggest any potential motherboard or how to upgrade this let me know.

Thank you all again for all help and suggestation. I learn a lot from you guys.
 

Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #557 on: January 24, 2025, 07:43:58 am »
Hello.

Welcome.
-
Shall we continue or not?
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #558 on: January 24, 2025, 09:47:03 am »
we will continue
 

Offline m k

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #559 on: January 24, 2025, 10:26:22 am »
Is the change you or somebody from above?
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #560 on: January 24, 2025, 11:34:47 am »
i am just a random repair guy, i only repair what others gives me to repair.
 

Offline m k

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #561 on: January 24, 2025, 11:43:07 am »
So now repair is taken away?
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #562 on: January 25, 2025, 01:22:38 am »
Yeah i have one left.

And they are thinking to upgrade to a latest versions or swap to similiar motherboards if there are any available in internet.

But i guess there isnt any.
 

Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #563 on: January 25, 2025, 01:58:00 am »
Hi,

Let's pick up where we left off.
Reply #554 on: January 09, 2025
-
I can't move on until I get past this stage.
Please.
-
P.S.
Who came up with this fuck.(.). outsourcing?
 

Offline m k

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #564 on: January 25, 2025, 02:21:44 pm »
Yeah i have one left.

And they are thinking to upgrade to a latest versions or swap to similiar motherboards if there are any available in internet.

But i guess there isnt any.

Their stuff, their call.

If you get other boards back one day consider doing comparable diagnose for all of them.
And stay in repair more, that's what is expected from you.

Maybe you were lucky with earlier boards and now you got a real problem.
It can distort an outsider's understanding of the situation.
You're still sort of prototyping.

If your project is to figure out the circuit and its function the situation is different.
But then you must make clear that reverse engineering will take time and at some point, despite the project status, it is not relevant anymore.

Using this kind of a messaging system as a guiding source can also be very problematic.
First of all it is slow, so slowing your already slow process even more.
Then the quality of guiding is completely unknown first, and later based on your assumptions and expectations, right or wrong.
Bright side is that you can get much wider information base than from face to face stuff.

One other thing, take your time, the forum is not going anywhere.
But try to answer all direct and relevant questions and ask more if you don't understand, it can be problematic if you're too far behind, but it must be solved or the process will stop.

During this thing you've said that you may have missed some messages.
You can only remember what you can remember, if you're getting too much info you can expand the forum.
There you split the single column of the forum to multiple "columns" of your own notes.
Different portions of circuit or function for a "column" is one possibility.
Your goal is still repair those boards, missing relevant information doesn't help that.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 
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Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #565 on: January 27, 2025, 07:03:09 am »
Hi,

Let's pick up where we left off.
Reply #554 on: January 09, 2025
-
I can't move on until I get past this stage.
Please.
-
Here it is,
 

Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #566 on: January 30, 2025, 02:12:04 am »
Hi,

There are clearly not enough PC resources....
-
Does your scope's operating mode allow you to do the same?

 
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Offline squadchannel

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #567 on: January 30, 2025, 10:41:15 am »
well done, asis :-+
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #568 on: January 31, 2025, 02:49:33 am »
Hi,

There are clearly not enough PC resources....

What more PC resources we looking for?
Are there any generalize motherboard which can be used for multi purposes.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #569 on: January 31, 2025, 03:00:05 am »

Does your scope's operating mode allow you to do the same?

My scope is rigol ds1054z 50Hz.
4 channel 50Hz
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 04:01:32 am by 222Lab_Test222 »
 

Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #570 on: January 31, 2025, 06:31:11 am »
Hi,

Sorry,
I'm talking about my own problems.
Just an old PC, yes, and I'm not young....
-
Do you have a mode (A vs B) in the scope that allows you to implement measurements like on YT?
(Reply #451 Curve Tracer)
-
I doubt that you will find something universal to replace this PCB (KDX4-B).
This is a specialized product, - sharpened for specific tasks.
-
If someone tries to implement this, then first you need to read the KDX4B-FLASH module (SIM2),
in which, probably, the current profile of the machine is written.
A,
-> IC38 (23C4001EJGZ) & IC40 (M27C256-12FI) via IC26 + IC41 (D72020GC-8 _x2) - provide output to the CRT screen of graphics and language support.
(Reply #151 on: November 13, 2024).
-
It was not by chance that I asked for a photo of SIM2 Reply (#565 on: January 27, 2025).
You need to specify the pins to bind to the SIM2 indices and the main PCB.
Subsequently, you can read all four FLASH RAM MX29F040 without unsoldering anything.
You just need to make an adapter to connect to the programmer, using a cut SIMM72 connector from an old motherboard.
-
If possible, do a ringing of the circuits marked "?" and write them down in tabular form (.txt).
(Reply #283)
-
The quality of the pictures is poor - this slows things down a lot.
If possible, scan the PCB on a regular flatbed scanner, placing the board directly on the glass.
This will allow you to use the vias of the PCB as reference points and reproduce some of the connections.
If this is not possible, you can take pictures of the PCB in small fragments with small overlaps of the picture area.
 
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Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #571 on: January 31, 2025, 07:52:04 am »
Hi,

Sorry,
I'm talking about my own problems.
Just an old PC, yes, and I'm not young....
-
Do you have a mode (A vs B) in the scope that allows you to implement measurements like on YT?
(Reply #451 Curve Tracer)
-
I doubt that you will find something universal to replace this PCB (KDX4-B).
This is a specialized product, - sharpened for specific tasks.
-
If someone tries to implement this, then first you need to read the KDX4B-FLASH module (SIM2),
in which, probably, the current profile of the machine is written.
A,
-> IC38 (23C4001EJGZ) & IC40 (M27C256-12FI) via IC26 + IC41 (D72020GC-8 _x2) - provide output to the CRT screen of graphics and language support.
(Reply #151 on: November 13, 2024).
-
It was not by chance that I asked for a photo of SIM2 Reply (#565 on: January 27, 2025).
You need to specify the pins to bind to the SIM2 indices and the main PCB.
Subsequently, you can read all four FLASH RAM MX29F040 without unsoldering anything.
You just need to make an adapter to connect to the programmer, using a cut SIMM72 connector from an old motherboard.
-
If possible, do a ringing of the circuits marked "?" and write them down in tabular form (.txt).
(Reply #283)
-
The quality of the pictures is poor - this slows things down a lot.
If possible, scan the PCB on a regular flatbed scanner, placing the board directly on the glass.
This will allow you to use the vias of the PCB as reference points and reproduce some of the connections.
If this is not possible, you can take pictures of the PCB in small fragments with small overlaps of the picture area.

I have RAM without those MX29F040 IC.
I will try to get you more clearer picture.
 

Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #572 on: February 05, 2025, 03:48:10 am »
Hi,

I suspect that all the peripherals connected to the power plant use RS232 (IC19, IC20, IC79 = GD78232), RS422 (IC81 = SN751177) transceivers.
Such microcircuits are very vulnerable to both lightning discharges and electromagnetic interference from the power cables of this entire machine.
And, most likely, when initializing the controller, a poll of the peripheral status is provided.
Check for short circuits or other anomalies at the inputs/outputs of the specified transceivers.
-
Please also indicate the markings RA1, RA6, RA7, RA8, RA9, RA10 (bottom PCB);
RA2, RA3, RA5, RA11,RA12, RA4 (top PCB)
&
all SMD transistors SOT23 with reference to their index on PCB (or take a clear picture).
-
What chip is in the photo?
--
As of today, the work on creating a set of elements is almost complete.
 
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Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #573 on: February 07, 2025, 12:18:32 am »
SMD Q  I  see are ACY mark and Q12 is CEY. Very hard to see, almost erase.. Q2 is B F T60.
SMD DIODE are A13

IC not seen is TD 345 62503F.

Where you want me to indicate marking of RA?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 12:36:37 am by 222Lab_Test222 »
 

Offline asis

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #574 on: February 07, 2025, 03:01:59 am »
Hi,

I wanted you to read the rating (resistance value) on the resistor sets RA2, RA3, RA5, RA11, RA12, RA4(TOP PCB) and specify the IC type(MSOP16) RA1, RA6, RA7, RA8, RA9, RA10(Bottom PCB).

Also, I ask you to take photos marked on the coordinate grid F2 & F3.
-
It will be useful to make a device from improvised means that will allow you to maintain the same distance from the PCB and keep the horizontal state of the camera.
Well, and - the maximum possible lighting to look into the inner (second) layer of the PCB.

Thanks.
 


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