Author Topic: What more i can do?  (Read 37035 times)

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Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2024, 06:55:24 am »
Is there anymore things that i can do, keep on sharing some knowledge and tips.

Its worth mentioning the things, so that i can try doing and see if that works for me.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2024, 07:05:27 am »
Please measure 3v from the battery on all jumpers.
We had to do it first.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2024, 07:45:18 am »
Please measure 3v from the battery on all jumpers.
We had to do it first.
I do not understand what you mean or trying to say
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2024, 07:48:30 am »

Please check the possibility to enter BIOS on the working PC. Do you have an ancient NEC PC98 keyboard?

I tried to press HELP as well as F2, F9 and all keys, BUT no ways to enter BIOS.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2024, 10:18:01 pm »
Please do the following on the good (working) PC.
Go strictly point by point. Please see attached drawing.

1. On the board (disconnected from the Power Supply) measure the voltage at pin16  IS23.
After check the battery voltage. It should be 3,0V.

2. Measure the voltage at pin8  IS38.

3. Measure the voltage at jumper JP1.
4. Measure the voltage at jumper JP5.
5. Measure the voltage at jumper JP2.
6. Measure the voltage at jumper JP4 and JP6.

Please clarify the following questions:
7. Why is SW4 set up in different positions in your photos?
8. Why is SW2 set up in different positions in your photos?

9. Remove SIM2 (Flash). Switch on the computer and check for beep. Switch it off.
10. Removet SIM1 (Dram). Switch on the computer and check for beep. Switch it off. Install both SIMs back.
11. Remove IC40 (CGROM3). Switch on the computer and check for beep.

PS
@Franc, it turns out that you found the datasheets for all the chips. I was wondering where such rare datasheets came from.
Only you can do this!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 04:33:41 am by Harry_22 »
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2024, 11:19:34 pm »
Please do the following on the good (working) PC.
Go strictly point by point. Please see attached drawing.

1. On the board (disconnected from the Power Supply) measure the voltage at pin16  IS23.
After check the battery voltage. It should be 3,0V.
-It is 3V.
2. Measure the voltage at pin8  IS38.
-No Volt

3. Measure the voltage at jumper JP1.
-No Volt
4. Measure the voltage at jumper JP5.
-No Volt
5. Measure the voltage at jumper JP2.
-No Volt
6. Measure the voltage at jumper JP4 and JP6.
-No Volt

Please clarify the following questions:
7. Why is SW4 set up in different positions in your photos?
-I do not know what this does either BUT 4 pin of this switch is used to turn of buzzer if there is beep.
8. Why is SW2 set up in different positions in your photos?
-I do not know what this Switch does to be honest.

9. Remove SIM2 (Flash). Switch on the computer and check for beep. Switch it off.
-There is no beep at all, BUT the screen is black although it is on.
10. Remove SIM1 (Dram). Switch on the computer and check for beep. Switch it off. Install both SIMs back.
-There is no beep at all, BUT the screen is black although it is on and i see 1 or 2 unknown letters.
11. Remove IC40 (CGROM3). Switch on the computer and check for beep.
-I am not sure how to remove this, shall i desolder?
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2024, 11:23:11 pm »
PS
@Frank, it turns out that you found the datasheets for all the chips. I was wondering where such rare datasheets came from.
Only you can do this!

I do not know if he is same guy BUT "u/fzabkar" is his name in reddit. He help me a lot in past weeks, BUT unfortunately he couldn't help more and he drop out from further testing.
 

Offline wasyoungonce

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2024, 12:33:42 am »
PALCE16V8H, AMD, Universal Programmable Array Logic, 5V, 20-pin:
https://www.silicon-ark.co.uk/datasheets/PALCE16V8H-datasheet-amd.pdf

PALCE20V8Q, AMD, Universal Programmable Array Logic, 5V, 24-pin:
https://www.tomek.cedro.info/files/electronics/doc/ic_various/GAL20V8.PDF


Don't those have a data storage retention life....usually 20 years is given then programmed array data can degrade.  Page 2-58 of PALCE16V8 mentions this.

http://www.s100computers.com/Software%20Folder/GALs/Intro%20To%20GALs.htm

I program Atmel  AFT16V8BQL GAL EEPLDs (now Microchip) and other devices similar (ICT) and their datasheets also mention "20 yr" data retention life.

You can reprogram them...probably not in situ, usually easier to buy new one program it....if you have the .jed files (or what ever).

It may be possible to remove a working one and read it (if not read bit locked).   Then re-program other devices. (don't tick lock bit as you cannot read verify)   This may or may not be your issue.   I have seen similar devices degrade...that just count pulses
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 12:36:52 am by wasyoungonce »
I'd forget my Head if it wasn't screwed on!
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2024, 02:12:11 am »

Don't those have a data storage retention life....usually 20 years is given then programmed array data can degrade.  Page 2-58 of PALCE16V8 mentions this.


Thanks for pointing it out, Lets me see if that's what causing the issues.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2024, 05:43:06 am »

10. Remove SIM1 (Dram). Switch on the computer and check for beep. Switch it off. Install both SIMs back.
-There is no beep at all, BUT the screen is black although it is on and i see 1 or 2 unknown letters.
11. Remove IC40 (CGROM3). Switch on the computer and check for beep.
-I am not sure how to remove this, shall i desolder?

What about the screen on non-working PC? Is it also on? Please check.

Don't remove IC40. Sorry, I didn't see that there is no bed underneath.

Please do the following on working machine:
Remove Sim1 (Dram) and try to start it.

PS
Every time before a new manipulation, check that the machine is working.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 05:48:46 am by Harry_22 »
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2024, 07:29:32 am »

10. Remove SIM1 (Dram). Switch on the computer and check for beep. Switch it off. Install both SIMs back.
-There is no beep at all, BUT the screen is black although it is on and i see 1 or 2 unknown letters.
11. Remove IC40 (CGROM3). Switch on the computer and check for beep.
-I am not sure how to remove this, shall i desolder?

What about the screen on non-working PC? Is it also on? Please check.

Don't remove IC40. Sorry, I didn't see that there is no bed underneath.

Please do the following on working machine:
Remove Sim1 (Dram) and try to start it.

PS
Every time before a new manipulation, check that the machine is working.

After you requested, i am performing all tasks in working machine.

In non working board screen, after i press on, It keeps beeping continuously, i do not see anything on the screen. It feels like screen is not even on.

When SIM 1 is removed, Its just some blank screen. BUT if i swap SIM 1 and SIM 2 in same working board *the same board* there is beep, and if i just plug it out there is no beep. Its weird.

 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2024, 09:11:56 am »

After you requested, i am performing all tasks in working machine.

In non working board screen, after i press on, It keeps beeping continuously, i do not see anything on the screen. It feels like screen is not even on.

When SIM 1 is removed, Its just some blank screen. BUT if i swap SIM 1 and SIM 2 in same working board *the same board* there is beep, and if i just plug it out there is no beep. Its weird.

Do you mean here "non-working"?

Could you perform the detailed description of Sim manipulation test on both working and non-working machines.

PS
Your board is as an alien artifact from a moon-digging machine. :)
Now we're looking for some thread to grab onto and unravel the tangle further.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 09:20:27 am by Harry_22 »
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2024, 11:03:59 pm »

Could you perform the detailed description of Sim manipulation test on both working and non-working machines.


SIM Manipulation
1. Working Board
- When SIM 1 is removed there is just black screen.
- When SIM 2 is removed there is some texts like date stuffs time on screen.
- When I swap SIM 1 and SIM 2, i mean put SIM 1 in SIM 2 and vice versa, there is beep.

2. Non Working Board
- There is beep, even i remove SIM 1 or SIM 2, I can't get the screen turn on.
- Same even if i swap, no screen turn on, Only Beep.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2024, 11:05:16 pm »

PS
Your board is as an alien artifact from a moon-digging machine. :)
Now we're looking for some thread to grab onto and unravel the tangle further.

If we can get hands on WACOM IC datasheet, then we can solve lots of issues BUT nope no datasheet.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2024, 06:29:53 am »
Could you remove both UV-EPROMs with DOS on working board and check it for beep.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2024, 06:45:10 am »
Could you remove both UV-EPROMs with DOS on working board and check it for beep.

There is no beep even they are removed.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2024, 06:57:10 am »
You mean IC15, IC16 ?
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2024, 07:06:39 am »
You mean IC15, IC16 ?

Oh there is beep if i removed those DOS.
They are main cause of Beep.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2024, 07:08:30 am »
The same non-stop beep?
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2024, 07:15:33 am »
The same non-stop beep?
yeah same non stop beep
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2024, 07:42:25 am »
Perfect!

Could you read EPROM IC15 and IC16 data and send it to me.
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2024, 07:59:46 am »
Perfect!

Could you read EPROM IC15 and IC16 data and send it to me.

How to read and send those?
Do i need something to read those 32 pins ICs.
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2024, 09:34:54 am »
Hello everyone!

I would like to summarize all the collected above data.

This is a single-board industrial computer with Intel 486DX2-66 processor and WACOM Tornado-T chipset.
I managed to find pure Tornado-T board without a video adapter. It is here:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254285333624

Now about the main components:

Tornado-T chipset.
There is almost no information. However, there is also no information about other chipsets of that time.
Along the way, I found an interesting retro site with old Motherboards, CPU, Chipsets etc.:
https://theretroweb.com/
Tornado-T can be imagined as a combination of i82358 - EISA Bus Controller (Host Bus to ISA/EISA Bus Interface) and i82357 - Integrated System Peripheral (DMA, X-Bus Interface to Bios, RTC, Speaker).

RTC (real time clock)
It is placed in D4900 and supplied with 3V from the battery.

Battery-backed CMOS RAM for BIOS data
Not installed here.
note:
CMOS BIOS memory contains 128-bytes of battery-backed SRAM as standard. On ISA systems, the layout looks like this:
16 bytes - Real Time Clock
32 bytes - ISA configuration data
16 bytes - BIOS specific configuration data
This information is usually placed in RTC with inside battery like DS12887 or in the chipset like i82371.
To reset BIOS, you would temporarily move three-position jumper to the ground.

DRAM Memory
Sim1

“non-volatile” storage like HDD
Sim2 – Flash memory

BIOS
This is what we were looking.

It is located in the UV-EPROM chips before MS-DOS.
Just have seen that the labels on UV-EPROMS have the same Revision KDX.1.34A as the Bios version on the display.

The last experiment with removing the UV-EPROM on worked board gave the same results – the speaker beeps continuously like on broken board.
This is probably the built-in Tornado-T function to beep in case of a boot error.

So in our case no BIOS configuration data is stored and there is no such thing as "entering BIOS".
The required configuration is set by onboard jumpers.
The date and time may be adjusted each time you start the computer.

Is everything correct? Or did I miss something?
Any comments are welcome!

PS
Could you read EPROM IC15 and IC16 data and send it to me.

How to read and send those?
Do i need something to read those 32 pins ICs.
There are no need to read them any more.
Now I know that BIOS is inside.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 01:47:26 pm by Harry_22 »
 

Offline Harry_22

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2024, 11:38:09 pm »
Chеck the signals Chip Enable and Output Enable (please see the picture).
It would be good to compare them with the working board.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 11:44:09 pm by Harry_22 »
 

Offline 222Lab_Test222Topic starter

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Re: What more i can do?
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2024, 11:52:22 pm »
Chеck the signals Chip Enable and Output Enable (please see the picture).
It would be good to compare them with the working board.

They are all good, Except there is no volatges in A pins which are input pins in Non working board, Thats the case i am mentioning from the start of this forum.

Other is everything good.

Ps
When I check where some of those pins connecetd they are connected to near tornado IC and few of them to other ICs
 


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