3D printers : your experiences and current State of the technology

[free_electron]

i'm in the market for a 3d printer. budget 2000 to 2500$ ( preferrably lower )

My 'ideal' requirements
- turnkey  ( i know that is a long shot , and they all need a bit of tweaking , but what i mean is : i am not interested in something i need to assemble, calibrate, debug the software, kludge around with contraptions , finding all the files and required libraries on the internet, discover i got the wrong version of lib x , the wrong version python or other mucking about.  Uncrate it, plug it in , launch setup.exe and it should be ready to roll. )

- Possible two extruder heads so i can make support structures out of water soluble material

- Accurate. meaning if i load a cube that is 10.1 mm a side it comes out as 10.1 mm. i've seen some software that loads stl files and has now way to measure eanything or scale numerically. that is a no-fly

- Easily reads in industry standard files such as solidworks or step to postprocess into the file to drive the machine.
- I am after a machine that i can work with, not work at , if you know what i mean. My goal is not to tinker with 3d printers , but to produce parts with them.

If you have a machine i'd like your input. What do like about it , what do you not like about it. What do you hate about it. How easy is the software, how frequently updated , bugfixed etc ? How reliable is it ?

[TopLoser]

I gave up trying to get anything useful out of them.

I just use shapeways for everything now, incredible range of useful materials and you end up with parts you can actually use and that last.

[free_electron]

ouch. not what i wanted to hear , but i kinda expected such an answer ... i've talked to two different 3d printing user groups and it's the endless story of how they like to rebuild their machines as opposed to build something with their machines...

i don't want to build a car , i want to drive it !  (ok, i know , i am building cars these days... but that's a different story )

[electr_peter]

Mentioned requirements are really steep for 3D machines. I would suggest to use 3D printing services from reputable supplier. Why? Because:

• turnkey - not today I guess. MakerBot has some new machines that claims low maintenance, but reviews prove they are awful (massive issues with HW/SW...).
• two extruder head with different materials -> myriad of issues
• accurate dimensions in absolute terms - 3D printers are only accurate in relative terms in my books. SW can take shrinking/expansion into calculations to some extent though
• industry file formats - depends on SW quality
• simple and low maintenance - reviews of cheap, semi cheap and mid-range printers say otherwise.

My point - 3D machines are fiddly and if you are not printing massive quantities, it is probably not worth the effort. Printing services would do better mostly due to their experience (their are printing all the time) and better 3D printers.

[tggzzz]

Will all your pieces be made from the same material?

If so that may reduce the number of machines to consider. If not, then you will have to get multiple machines - or use one of the many fabrication houses.

As far as I can see with amateur machines, people spend as much time fettling as producing parts.

[johnwa]

I cannot really comment on the different brands of machine - I have been looking into getting one myself. However, one thing to be aware of is that some manufacturers appear to be following the inkjet printer model, and hardware locking the filament cartridges so that you have to buy genuine replacements. Before purchasing a machine, it would be advisable to check you are not going to end up with one of these.

[Frost]

i'm in the market for a 3d printer. budget 2000 to 2500$ ( preferrably lower )

My 'ideal' requirements
- turnkey  ( i know that is a long shot , and they all need a bit of tweaking , but what i mean is : i am not interested in something i need to assemble, calibrate, debug the software, kludge around with contraptions , finding all the files and required libraries on the internet, discover i got the wrong version of lib x , the wrong version python or other mucking about.  Uncrate it, plug it in , launch setup.exe and it should be ready to roll. )

You are looking for Stratasys, but they are not "compatible"
to meet your budget

[Mechatrommer]

i am not interested in something i need to assemble, calibrate, debug the software, kludge around with contraptions , finding all the files and required libraries on the internet, discover i got the wrong version of lib x , the wrong version python or other mucking about.  Uncrate it, plug it in , launch setup.exe and it should be ready to roll. )

i also hate mucking around with stuffs i'm not familiar with, but with my diy 3d printer when i first got it, its easier done than what you've said. repertier host and marlin FW alone is all it takes, no wrong phyton no wrong lib etc.

- Accurate. meaning if i load a cube that is 10.1 mm a side it comes out as 10.1 mm.

for the budget you've stated... you are dreaming. even the half million dollar printer i doubt it can do that. you should go for factory moulding, cnc, laser and all the mucking around etc to get the precision, even there is nothing in the world that can meet your ±0 tolerance precision. furthermore in 3d printer FDM domain, my diy printer is around ±0.3 - ±0.5mm tolerace, to get the size i need to post machine it. maybe the half a million printer is around ±0.1mm? it will print your 10.1mm cube 10.2mm, still a fail. good luck finding tolerance spec for any cheap or expensive printer.

i've seen some software that loads stl files and has now way to measure eanything or scale numerically. that is a no-fly

open source repertier host can scale the stl to your heart desire.

If you have a machine i'd like your input. What do like about it , what do you not like about it. What do you hate about it. How easy is the software, how frequently updated , bugfixed etc ? How reliable is it ?

since my diy printer is out of your class i dont think to give a review for you except that i like to mention, after the initial setup/tinkering with FW and learning the "dummies on how to 3d print stuffs" esp abs and pla properties and behaviour, my printer now is minimal setup maintenance. basically just preparing blue tape, leveling bed, homing the head and then print wait to completion. i guess the more expensive turnkey and ready built also do the same probably just lesser.

my point is... just like normal inkjet printer, you have to know what you are doing, feeding paper, check nozzle clog, cleaning etc, dont feed the printer with nasty type of stuff/paper/filament if you dont want to jam etc, thats kind of maintenance and knowledge stuff. may i ask how many people here know how to inkjet print "color accurate" photo? i suspect its only very few because everybody are happy with their "color inaccurate" printer they think it is "accurate", hence they dont have to work for their printer. i have to work on my inkjet printer to get color accurate if i dont want to spend half a million dollar machine, heck half a million dollar machine still will not met my color accuracy spec, i will still need to work on it if i have one.

[Mechatrommer]

i've talked to two different 3d printing user groups and it's the endless story of how they like to rebuild their machines as opposed to build something with their machines...
i don't want to build a car , i want to drive it !  (ok, i know , i am building cars these days... but that's a different story )

yes i'm currently building another 3d printer with my existing 3d printer, not that my existing printer is not good, its just i need bigger. if i'm buying that size of big, thats a half a million machine, so lets the poorman do its job... but for the record, i already print few usefull "build something with their machines" stuff with my existing small printer. expecting accuracy and all the mumble jumble whistle in budget printer is like expecting a ferrari to cost the same as budget car. and producing dimension accurate subject is not it, is not in FDM 3D printer world, just like expecting a budget car (or even ferrari) to have a shovel function.

As far as I can see with amateur machines, people spend as much time fettling as producing parts.

what i see is people with their own printer printing their dick on and some unartistic sculptures, toys that can cost tenth in local store. whats with all this people? why they even care to own a diy 3d printer in the first place? 

[mjkuwp]

I have a Printrbot metal simple.  had it for two weeks now.  It was a present to my 9-yr old daughter due to her getting interested in this after her school got makerbots.  I came really close to getting Printrbots newest dual-extruder machine but decided I did not have enough free time to work with that machine.

The Printrbot is a really well built machine and is pretty easy to run.  She runs it now.  She makes the models in Tinkercad and she can go all the way from that to printing by herself.  of course this is possible so long as the slicer settings are left alone.

I will use it mostly for fixtures related to electronics and maybe the occasional case or two.  however, for finished projects I prefer to have a professional case with proper flame rated plastic.

The setup is fairly easy but definitely not consumer grade.  Need to download Cura or Repetier software to do the loading of models and slice the models into g-code.  Have to load configuration settings and enter a z-offset manually.

The biggest problem I have with it is that the filament does not always unwind really smoothly from the spool.  we have to check on the prints each 5 or 10 minutes.  Naturally we will soon look to 3D print one of the spool holder designs that are on Thingiverse and similar sites.

I think there will be time spent fiddling with slicer settings but the machine itself looks 'simple' enough to have good reliability if I keep it clean.

[free_electron]

I can accept a certain amount of tinkering.
I know you need to clean the glas plate and level the platform. I know a heated bed works best and you need a glass plate and hairspray , or the blue painters tape to prevent curling.
I also know that drafts across the machine (cold wind) are a non-no. So a nice enclosure would be required.

As for precision. Half a millimeter is fine , even a millimeter is fine. When iwrote that number i should have given a tolerance. When i say 10.1 mm i do not want to see 10 or 10.2. Actually i can make something that is accurate to half a millimeter.

So if i say i want 10.5 here id be happy if i get something that is between 10 and 11 mm

There seems to be an i flux of new players on the market. Even dremel has a machine now, and there are the da-vinci machines . They 'look' turnkey, question is: are they , how well are they supported.

I keep reading good reviews of the lulz bot.

I a kt opposed against using cartridges. I dont care that it costs a bit more , as long as the filament is consistent in quality and the end result is right. Id rather pay 10 more for a reel than have to restart a job five time because of filamnet problems , clogging nozzles and other crap.

Other things that ti k me off : printers sold with parts in em that were printed ... Really ?  Ok if they were printed so you cant tell, but ive seen machines with gears in em that are clearly printed by a crappy machine, you can see remnants of the raft, the teeth are all wonky , it jams sometimes, they went at it with sandpaper ...

Like that 'up' machine where the first thing you do is print abunch of addons to make the machine 'better'. Really ? That thing has sold for so long and so many units they can't afford to have those bits professionally extruded ?

Keep the replies coming.

Now, i am not limited to filament printers. Liquid would work as well.

The work would be mainly to print small prototypes of plastic pieces that go in an existing enclosure or will become the enclosure. Mainly the problem : have circuitbord, need case.  Or have case and board but need support piece or endcap here.

[mjkuwp]

......
I know you need to clean the glas plate and level the platform. I know a heated bed works best and you need a glass plate and hairspray , or the blue painters tape to prevent curling......

The Printrbot (and possibly others..?) has a sensor that reads the height of the platform, which is sheet steel.  It moves to three corners and wiggles the Z axis until the sensor reads the platform and it adjusts printing references based on this.  In this way it is more foolproof and there is no required procedure to level the bed.  I can see the Z axis moving to compensate for the bed so I have a plan that eventually I will do a level procedure to eliminate this extra movement.

I bought the Printrbot based on recommendation from the guy that runs printers at the local Children's museum.  he has both Makerbots and Printrbots and he says the Printrbots are a lot more reliable.  at the Milwaukee Maker Faire, I  noticed several of these running in their booth all weekend long.

I use blue painter's tape and have replaced the tape each half-dozen or dozen prints.  Heated bed is optional ( I do not have this) and is used for ABS prints and/or to keep the first layers from curling up.  You can also print the part on a raft so that the curled bottom edges are on the raft and not on your part but this is a slightly advanced topic.  The slicer software can add the raft to the part for you.

The resolution of the printers is 0.2mm and I would think accuracy of the machine would be quite high but there is the issue of plastic shrink to consider.  I have not yet done a print where I had to check this. 

Filament is generally 1.75mm PLA and around $20 for a spool.  Main thing is to keep this dry - it ships with dessicant and I have heard of people using food dehydraters.  I am going to choose not to worry about this unless I see some kind of problem.  Currently winter here so things will be dry inside.

I think you may want to research the filament materials - specifically the flame ratings.  I think I came across one that was designed for flame resistance.

[PA0PBZ]

Like that 'up' machine where the first thing you do is print abunch of addons to make the machine 'better'. Really ? That thing has sold for so long and so many units they can't afford to have those bits professionally extruded ?

I have the UP! mini, bought it because:

 - It's a finished product, no tinkering needed apart from levelling (did this once a year ago, no need to do it again yet)
 - It was available at a local shop which had a promotion so I payed like $ 800
 - It's closed, so no problem with draft and such
 - I didn't have to print any addon to get it working
 - It has a heated table and a good working board on top of that, no need for tape or hairspray or glass
 - The slicing software that comes with it is quite good, and it reads industry standard stl files

I really bought it to get some hands on experience with 3D printers, and to find out what I would really want to have. So far I'm happy with what it does, I printed about 20 objects and it didn't fail on any of them. I never checked the dimensions of the output so I can't really comment on that, and it has only one nozzle and a limited building capacity.

[miceuz]

We got this chinese clone of Makerbot:
http://blog.technariumas.lt/post/84907171406/the-new-3d-printer-at-work-making-test-parts-for

Printed 1024+ such holders with it:
http://blog.technariumas.lt/post/88881012111/3d-printed-parts-for-the-silicone-meadow

Yes, thermocouples break, you have to upgrade the firmware before it's usabe, other than that it went pretty ok. We bought a double head version, since we wanted yeld, we printed the same part via two nozzles in parallel.

I didn't have much need to do anything with it for me personaly, but in general, you can dowload a file from the internet and print a solid object out of it.

[Leuams]

I have a XYZprinter Da Vinci 1.0. It is cheap (~$500 USD), worked right out of the box for me, easy to use software, and so far has been maintenance free. It does have the cartridges that are similar to the ink jet printers today but they can be hacked if you really want to, I haven't done that yet. I have had a great experience with it.

[Christopher]

We have an HP Designjet 3D at work.

Might be a bit expensive but it just works and needs no calibration etc. Software all works out of the box.

[zapta]

A few assorted notes:

A good place to ask for printer recomendtions is here http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting. There is also a local group that meets periodically https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bay-area-reprap.

Air draft is not an issue with PLA, actually some printers even have a material cooling fan to improve PLA printing.

Heated bed is not required for PLA but improves adhesion to the bed.

Dual extruder machine allows soluble support. Never used it and know know if it will be useful for your case. Probably not (PCB cases, standoffs, etc). All printers support automatic material support with the normal filament.

SLA printers are not good for your application. The material is too brittle.

I wouldn't buy a printer that requires to connecting the computer to it (e.g. that Up+ printer I used that required the computer to be connected throughout the printing).  An LCD screen with stand alone user interface and SD card is very useful. Some printers even even Wifi link so you can print remotely (assuming your printer is clean and ready to print).

Auto leveling is important for an 'appliance' experience. Mine doesn't have it and it's a pain. The first layer or extrusion is the most important as it controls the adhesion to the bed.

1mm tolerance shouldn't be a problem with any 3D printer.

Hair spray is nasty. Hard to remove and if it gets on your plastic glasses they are gone. Use one of the friendlier methods (I am using that water soluble Elmer purple glue stick).

I wouldn't go with a printer that locks you to proprietary consumable unless, maybe, if it is a brand name (e.g. Makerbot).

The Dremel printer is rebranded from here (this company has good reputation) http://www.flashforge-usa.com/shop/3d-printers.html

Makerbot put a lot of effort into making their products consumer friendly and accessible. There products and consumables are  relatively expensive but are often consider to the reference for quality ("this filament is as good as Makerbots'"). I used their older two extruder wood frame unit and it gave excellent results, including with ABS. Didn't use their new models but saw them in a local Microsoft store (Stanford mall) and they look awesome.

The wide selection of 3D printers with none being a clear winner may be paralyzing. You just need to pick one and most likely it will work fine.  I picked the Prusa i3v kit and it works for me. 

Good luck.

[German_EE]

I go to the local FabLab to use their machines and, to be honest, I am not impressed. I needed a set of 36 slider pot knobs to refurbish a graphic equalizer and we ended up printing fifty or so before I had a usable set. The output is of low to medium quality and once you get over the novelty of printing Master Yoda figures the appeal starts to wear off.

I will wait two or three years for the technology to improve then, maybe, consider a purchase.

[jaxbird]

i'm in the market for a 3d printer. budget 2000 to 2500$ ( preferrably lower )
...

Honestly I don't think you get anything close to "turnkey" for below $10k.

Personally I've had good experience with a cheap as dirt heavily modified Mendel/Prusa based design. But it is certainly not anywhere close to turnkey. Have to invest significant time and effort to achieve usable results. And it needs constant calibration and maintenance.

I believe you need to step up into the $50 - $100k level to get true turnkey and wysiwyg.

[Corporate666]

Depends what you are intending to use it for.

If it's just for playing around, go for it.  If you intend to do any serious work, just go with Shapeways/Sculpeo.  The machines available at hobby level budgets are just toys that are not serious machines capable of serious work, unless your work is printing silly crappy looking trinkets like coffee mug coasters and batarangs that look like they were whittled with a chainsaw.

The parts I get from Sculpeo are so high-res they don't even look 3D printed.  And I can have 1mm through holes that have no flash and are right on size. 

But as I said it depends what you want to do with it.  For me, it was prototyping parts to verify before CNC machining.  I didn't need superb accuracy but it had to be somewhat reasonable... and printing plastic parts with sags and droops from thick sections unevenly cooling and twisted and warped and off-size from drivetrain backlash just didn't cut it. 

[tggzzz]

Depends what you are intending to use it for.
...
The parts I get from X are so high-res they don't even look 3D printed. 

Yes, just so.

Apparently it is now fairly standard practice to 3d print jewellery. Printing in wax has a high resolution and can then be used for lost-wax casting of precious (or non-precious) metals.

[HighVoltage]

I looked at a lot of 3D printers and found that the hardware that produces good quality parts is too expensive and the lower cost printers did not fulfill my expectations. So I told myself to waif a couple more years. So, I am still sending my STL files to a prototyping house and 2 days later I have perfect parts.

[zapta]

If it's just for playing around, go for it.  If you intend to do any serious work, just go with Shapeways/Sculpeo.  The machines available at hobby level budgets are just toys that are not serious machines capable of serious work, unless your work is printing silly crappy looking trinkets like coffee mug coasters and batarangs that look like they were whittled with a chainsaw.

Even if you want 'serious work', it's handy to do quick prototyping until you are happy with the design.  I have a cheapo Prusa I3V and found it to be very useful for fabricating things I need (no, I am not printing Yodas). My last design is here

[Corporate666]

If it's just for playing around, go for it.  If you intend to do any serious work, just go with Shapeways/Sculpeo.  The machines available at hobby level budgets are just toys that are not serious machines capable of serious work, unless your work is printing silly crappy looking trinkets like coffee mug coasters and batarangs that look like they were whittled with a chainsaw.

Even if you want 'serious work', it's handy to do quick prototyping until you are happy with the design.  I have a cheapo Prusa I3V and found it to be very useful for fabricating things I need (no, I am not printing Yodas). My last design is here

That's a hobby part right?  Exactly my point.

Nobody doing commercial work is going to be printing out stuff on their MakerBot - they are going to use a real 3D printing service to get commercially viable prints.  I didn't say these printers were not usable for at-home hobby work... they just produce crappy looking parts in limited range of materials that require significant amounts of hand-finishing to get usable.  For some home/hobby applications, that's OK.

[jaxbird]

If it's just for playing around, go for it.  If you intend to do any serious work, just go with Shapeways/Sculpeo.  The machines available at hobby level budgets are just toys that are not serious machines capable of serious work, unless your work is printing silly crappy looking trinkets like coffee mug coasters and batarangs that look like they were whittled with a chainsaw.

Even if you want 'serious work', it's handy to do quick prototyping until you are happy with the design.  I have a cheapo Prusa I3V and found it to be very useful for fabricating things I need (no, I am not printing Yodas). My last design is here

Nice work 

In my experience it's all about knowing the limits of your machine and getting the best out of it.

[Mechatrommer]

Nobody doing commercial work is going to be printing out stuff on their MakerBot - they are going to use a real 3D printing service to get commercially viable prints.

tell me one product or brand company that mass produced their commercial products with 3D printing service? i suspect none.

[PlainName]

That's a hobby part right?  Exactly my point.

What's wrong with that? It would cost him a fortune to buy a commercial one (if anyone ever made one), but with this printer he can have it a couple of hours later for basic cost. That's a perfect example of useful output, and your classing it as a 'hobby part' is just showing your prejudice.

The ideal part to print is a) nothing to do with the printer, b) a one-off (or close) and c) something you can't already buy for a reasonable price. I reckon his example scores on all those grounds.

[zapta]

What's wrong with that? It would cost him a fortune to buy a commercial one (if anyone ever made one), but with this printer he can have it a couple of hours later for basic cost. That's a perfect example of useful output, and your classing it as a 'hobby part' is just showing your prejudice.

I wish I would have the same arrangement for pcbs. No more waiting week+ for a prototype.

(etching and plating myself doesn't count, I am talking an automatic process that produces useable prototype PCBs, with hole plating, some plating on the copper and a solder mask).

[PlainName]

I am talking an automatic process

That's the holy grail, but I doubt if we're going to get anywhere near since even the professionals aren't completely automated, are they?

[Mechatrommer]

this one looks like aint 2K machine (metal) but some magnitude more tedious than the sub 2K... both pre and post processing... whats that he's using, dremel grinder?

[BloodyCactus]

I have a lulzbot TAZ, it can print 11"x10"x9". they are talking about dual extruders but I dont think its available yet, just singe extruder.

your not going to get any hobby level 3d printer than can read solidworks native files, the slicer software only reads STL files.

3d printers are SLOW. how often do you need to make parts / in what quantity? its SLOW even when not using a lot of infill.. If you use lots of infill, going for solid inner parts, SUPER SLOW.

each time you change filament, need to recalibrate for best results.

3d printers are still in the land of lots of manual tinkering.

[free_electron]

it;s mainly for prototype work. print a one -of a kind , verify everything matches and then i will have these things made by injection molding.

[kaz911]

it;s mainly for prototype work. print a one -of a kind , verify everything matches and then i will have these things made by injection molding.

You can to some degree use the 3D prints for injection moulding designs - but injection moulding requires different setup's most of the time - so you will end up getting disappointed with 3D prints -> Injection Moulding. That process is NOT straight forward...

Anyway - my recommendation - Either Zortrax M200 or Up Mini are the two best " plug and play (sometimes pray) 3D printers. Beats the crap out of Makerbot machines which have turned into a pile of junk printer for the most part. Cubify printers are terrible as well. For PLA Ultimaker V2 is also great. The Zortrax is primarily ABS prints but have different types of material dependent on what you want to print.

I have the Zortrax M200 - and it works really great for most of the time. I am happy to leave it printing overnight without supervision. And support material is done from same as print material but is relatively easy to remove. You do sometimes have to compensate slightly for drill holes - but overall dimensions of object are reasonably on the mark.

I also have a home built/assembled Ultimaker V1 - but that is only for PLA material. But PLA is not very heat resistant and will start changing shape at about 50 deg c. So exposed to direct sunlight and 35+ deg c - you can see warping. Especially if your electronics generate heat as well.

[kaz911]

and on the subject of 3D printers...

http://www.voxel8.co/

3D printer with "conductive " ink AND components embedded inside the 3D print. Software support by Autodesk.

ONLY $9000 ish.... for a PLA printer....

[vargoal]

My FRC robotics team uses a Maker Replicator 2. Just some advice, We use slicer and replicator G to operate the printer instead of the Makerware software because we find we have better control over settings and configurations that way. Still with that said if your looking for turnkey then MakerBot or 3D systems are the two companies you want to look at. I haven't used a 3D systems printer but they recently added a few in the consumer price range and their goal was to make one for the non-maker community like average consumers. If anyone has experience with one of the cheaper 3D systems printers please post feedback below.

[zapta]

The dual extruder Dreamer has very good reviews and it looks 'appliancy'.

http://amzn.com/B00JRBQJ6W

Currently I am using an OSH Reprap i3v kit. For my next printer I will also look also for

1) Closed chamber (for ABS).
2) Auto bed leveling (at at least a stable frame that doesn't require frequent leveling)
3) Dual extruder for dissolvable material support (I am not happy with same material support). Anybody has experience with dissolvable support? Is it as good as it sounds?

That dual Dreamer looks pretty close and that 230 x 150 x 140 may be sufficient (currently I have 200 x 200 x 200.

One general advise, for your new printer use the best filament material you can find (e.g. Makerbot PLA). I wasted time with with cheap filament that didn't extrude well.

[DJ]

I've been looking at some models and hoping CES would have some surprises. Couple of new models here and there, and a $1500 SLA, but still learning to the MakerGear M2

http://www.makergear.com/products/m-series-3d-printers

I like the construction, local support and open/upgradeability. Got top marks at Amazon,  but will buy direct to get the kit version.

Do want ABS/PLA and ideally Ultem filament capability (if not now, able to add easily). $1500 for the kit, $300 more built. Will do my own large cabinet for draft control.

Will give SLA another year or 2 to mature (Form is also doing an inexpensive model)

[free_electron]

The dual extruder Dreamer has very good reviews and it looks 'appliancy'.

http://amzn.com/B00JRBQJ6W

Currently I am using an OSH Reprap i3v kit. For my next printer I will also look also for

1) Closed chamber (for ABS).
2) Auto bed leveling (at at least a stable frame that doesn't require frequent leveling)
3) Dual extruder for dissolvable material support (I am not happy with same material support). Anybody has experience with dissolvable support? Is it as good as it sounds?

That dual Dreamer looks pretty close and that 230 x 150 x 140 may be sufficient (currently I have 200 x 200 x 200.

One general advise, for your new printer use the best filament material you can find (e.g. Makerbot PLA). I wasted time with with cheap filament that didn't extrude well.

That machine, in its single head variant, is the one sold by Dremel for 999 .
I am very interested in that one. Metal build, enclosure . It is relatively new and id like to see some more reviews.

The makergear m3 would be another candidate because it uses machined parts.

I do not want any machine which uses plywood or plastic anywhere in its drive or extruder assembly.
Plywood warps , aborbs humidity, and plastic doesnt have the precision or repeatability. I want a nice, sturdy machine that gives good quality prints with alittle fuss as possible.

[senso]

There is a Portuguese contender, and they have won a couple prizes recently:
https://beeverycreative.com/

Its all metal, hiwin linear rails and guides, lots of metal inside them, but you are sort of limited to their PLA so they can provide you the put a new color press start, no temperature calibrations non-sense, but its a bit pricy, over 3000$.

[Corporate666]

Nobody doing commercial work is going to be printing out stuff on their MakerBot - they are going to use a real 3D printing service to get commercially viable prints.

tell me one product or brand company that mass produced their commercial products with 3D printing service? i suspect none.

The only commercial use you can think of for a 3D printer is mass production of parts?  I doubt anyone uses them for that, save for specialized medical implants in SLS machines I'm aware of.

But other than hobby work or work where quality doesn't really matter (hobby work), nobody is going to be using $500 3D printers for serious commercial work.  When a part needs prototyped and checked for accuracy/manufacturability, or you want something you can show in a meeting or other serious commercial needs, you're going to need reasonable quality and specified tolerances - neither of which you're going to get on a hobby level machine, not without a lot of fiddling and time wasting anyway.

[Corporate666]

That's a hobby part right?  Exactly my point.

What's wrong with that? It would cost him a fortune to buy a commercial one (if anyone ever made one), but with this printer he can have it a couple of hours later for basic cost. That's a perfect example of useful output, and your classing it as a 'hobby part' is just showing your prejudice.

The ideal part to print is a) nothing to do with the printer, b) a one-off (or close) and c) something you can't already buy for a reasonable price. I reckon his example scores on all those grounds.

To the part in bold - yes!  Exactly my point.  A hobbyist who needs a part for something other than commercial use is well served by such a printer.  What are you disagreeing with me about?  You are making my point for me.

And what do you think a hobby part is, if not this sort of thing?  I'm not sure what you seem to take offense to - I don't consider hobby use to be worthless and commercial use to be the only important thing.  But the part shown illustrates my point exactly.  If one were going to mass produce these handpieces prior to injection molding, the prototypes wouldn't be printed on a hobby machine.  It would be done on a commercial level.

It has nothing to do with the ideal part and everything to do with the reason for printing.  Hobby level use, a hobby level machine is fine.  Don't think that Agilent (err, I mean Keysight) is going to be prototyping the next 'scope faceplate on a Makerbot.  Ain't gonna happen.

[zapta]

If one were going to mass produce these handpieces prior to injection molding, the prototypes wouldn't be printed on a hobby machine.  It would be done on a commercial level.

There are so many professional use cases for 3D printers other than final prototype for injection mounding. For example cases and jigs for internal use, strawmen and proof of concepts, ergonomic surveys and many more.

Jeff Hawkins for example would find it very useful for his early Palm mockups:

http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/mobile-computing/18/321/1648

[zapta]

That machine, in its single head variant, is the one sold by Dremel for 999 .
I am very interested in that one. Metal build, enclosure . It is relatively new and id like to see some more reviews.

Between the two Dreamers I would probably take the dual extruder over the dremel. $300 extra sounds reasonable for a second extruder and hot bed (which is also good for PLA, nut just ABS).  I also started with a just-get-something-working approach but the appetite came with the eating (apetite for ABS and dissolvable support material).

One of the answers on Amazon says this. You may find more information on reddit.

"The Dremel-labeled printer, which is indeed manufatured by Flashforge, does not have a heated platform and can only print PLA. The Flashforge Dreamer can print PLA and ABS. The Dremel marketing team did a Reddit AMA in Sep 2014 where they used a bunch of marketing-speak to explain the differences between their printer and the Flashforge Dreamer. Do a web search for "AMA with Dremel 3D Idea Builder Team" to find it."

BTW, wood frames are not that bad. We have at work an old Makebot 2 with wood frame and it prints excellent with almost no calibration. Forge has this clone  http://amzn.com/B008CM2TCU for $1k (free shipping) and a metal version (with excellent reviews on Amazon) for $1k35  http://amzn.com/B00I8NM6JO (prime). Both have excellent reviews.

[casinada]

The Flash Forge Dreamer is $1299 but there is a $150 mail in rebate 
This one is more interesting but is not out yet:
http://spark.autodesk.com/ember

[Mechatrommer]

This one is more interesting but is not out yet:
http://spark.autodesk.com/ember

the problem (or benefit?) about this up side down syntering or what 3d printer.... the speed spec says... 15mm/hour. if its the same as FDM spec ie length of extruded filament, then thats unreasonably staggeringly slow (problem). if thats talking about 15mm vertical height (z axis) regardless of horizontal shape, then thats unreasonably high (benefit?). so whats that there talking 15mm/hour?

edit:

Build Volume
 X: 64 mm
 Y: 40 mm
 Z: 134 mm

ohh ok i didnt read this... if its only 6x4cm XY then thats reasonable. i think thats talking about Z axis speed.

[ConKbot]

We use rapid prototyping of all sorts all the time at my work. We have a contract in place with a shop, so it's nice and easy.  After a few weeks of messing with my own personal flash forge, working out the kinks, and having it run smoothly, my my jaw drops comparing it to a professional part run on a stratasys fdm machine. No comparison at all.

If you want a machine that works well, without having to specialize in tweaks, settings, tricks and optimizations, then there's no comparison.

Not that the consumer machines are bad machines, but don't even begin to think it's like a paper printer, and you send a file and it's done.

Figure out what you want to use it for, and what process fits your needs, if get some professional work done, see if using the rapid prototyping fits your needs like you thought it would, and then pick out a machine. Depending on labor rates and capabilities, a stratasys or other professional machine could end up cheaper in the long run than a consumer unit.

[Mechatrommer]

After a few weeks of messing with my own personal flash forge, working out the kinks, and having it run smoothly, my my jaw drops comparing it to a professional part run on a stratasys fdm machine. No comparison at all.

what do you mean no comparison? is that the stratasys result is too good and the diy is too bad?...
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,361365
https://galex49.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/stratasys-dimension-vs-reprap-no-contest/
i can see there's very broad need and expectation in this matter (as you can see above she's selling beads and expect to do it with 3dprinter), you may pick between the sub 2K and 35K machine and do the math.

[ConKbot]

After a few weeks of messing with my own personal flash forge, working out the kinks, and having it run smoothly, my my jaw drops comparing it to a professional part run on a stratasys fdm machine. No comparison at all.

what do you mean no comparison? is that the stratasys result is too good and the diy is too bad?...
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,361365
https://galex49.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/stratasys-dimension-vs-reprap-no-contest/
i can see there's very broad need and expectation in this matter (as you can see above she's selling beads and expect to do it with 3dprinter), you may pick between the sub 2K and 35K machine and do the math.

No comparison as in the stratasys was better looking than my own prints from my flash forge.

The stratasys prints were much 'cleaner', smooth finish, well bonded, felt strong, etc.  The FF prints surface finish was on par with what Ive seen from consumer units, but just wasnt as smooth. I.e.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7038/6970439344_eecbd925b8_n.jpg

I think that a good bit of it has to do with machine stiffness and motion control. You can slow down a consumer machine to reduce overshoot/ringing around the corners (as pictured above) But on a larger build, as you get higher, the material in the middle cools, so if it takes too long because you slowed it down, it increases warping.  Along with a stratasys having the patent for keeping the build chamber above the glass transition temp of the plastic as its being deposited, which helps a lot.

Also, for small items such as the beads linked, just arent very well suited to FDM, the Z-step being so much compared to the final product (only 16 layers in the red-orange pieces shown)  high res stereo lithography units, where you're looking at layers in the tens of microns, can look a lot better.   

Plus the software, probably as important as the machine, is a mature solution for the professional machines, and always changing on the consumer machines. I.e. with my dual extruder, if I wanted to use one material for support and another for the main material, I had to use makerbot's software. Slic3r didnt support that. It supported multiple colors, but the supports added underneath would be the same material they were supporting, so I'd have to add supports manually in my cad software.  Thats probably changed since then, as its been more than a few months since Ive played with what the latest and greatest software. 

[ehughes]

Here is my experience with the Cube Pro by 3d systems.   It is junk...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cubepro-warning-do-not-buy!/

[ROBERTOGEHLEN]

Now you can buy the chip reseter and unblocker device for CubePro, allowing to save much money
visit www.cube3dfree.com

[Wirehead]

That Tiko printer does look interesting. Too bad I'm too late to back it.

[Mechatrommer]

Now you can buy the chip reseter and unblocker device for CubePro, allowing to save much money
visit www.cube3dfree.com

ohh now the crippling crap that has infected inkjet printers for so long now outbreak to 3d printer? if you buy reprap based 3d printer from the beginning you dont have to deal with such a crap.

[pix3l]

Hi F_E and others,

I haven't seen any mentions of the i3 MK2 so far in this thread... I've seen several reviews where people say it's one of the best 3D printers on the market for a sub-€1k printer.

[jonovid]

if 2D printing is a pain in the neck. just imagine adding a third dimension. 
now your screw ups are in 3D & cost three time's as much.    so IMO a 3D printing service is best for the hobbyist.
I like to see 3D printing services just as officeworks does 2D printing services.
like free 3D software so you can plan out your work befor starting the print. you only pay for the end 3D product design.
cost the size and volume. 3D printing service software would prevent bad design like trying to make objects hang in mid air or too big or wrong size. too much Filament - solid block. trying to add objects inside objects.
  I not used 3D todate. 

[PlainName]

[...] the i3 MK2 ... I've seen several reviews where people say it's one of the best 3D printers on the market for a sub-€1k printer.

I seriously doubt if it is, purely on the basis that it doesn't have an enclosed build space, so subject to random drafts (or worse) messing with the extrusion.

Feature-wise, it's a single extruder too. You can get enclosed dual-extruders (and decent ones at that) for around the same price.

[free_electron]

i bought the 189$ monoprice printer. works great for what i want to do.

[Falcon69]

I bought a Geeetech dual extruder. I have trouble keeping it accurate. It never prints the pieces the same size.  Lately, it prints the pieces, and then starts skipping the g-code and messes up.  I have to carefully watch it, and when it does, stop it real quick, find the line it messed up on, erase all lines before, copy and paste the start codes and readjust the start height, so it can pick up where it left off so I don't waste all the hours it has already done. 

I have found that ultra Hold hairspray works alot better then a slurry of acetone and ABS for holding down the ABS when making parts. Just spray the hairspray on the heated bed. works like a charm. forget the slurry mix or glue stick. use hair spray!

Waste of money.

Ive been designing my own. 5-head. Easier to adjust and change out the nozzles. Enclosed with heated temp control. Making for myself. Just gotta find someone to make the aluminum parts once I finish designing them...Here's a sneak peak......

[PlainName]

That part looks great, but maybe the fans could do with a rethink - they are blowing or sucking at a wall, basically, so cooling may be suboptimal. If you have have blowing and half sucking, there will be a temperature gradient across them (which may not matter). Perhaps if you made the thing hollow so cool air could enter or exhaust up the middle...

[edavid]

That Tiko printer does look interesting. Too bad I'm too late to back it.

If you don't want to wait until they start taking orders, you can buy someone else's pledge:

https://forum.tiko3d.com/viewforum.php?f=14

[edavid]

i bought the 189$ monoprice printer. works great for what i want to do.

Is it this one?

http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=107&cp_id=10724&cs_id=1072403&p_id=15365&seq=1&format=2

Have you had to contact them for support?  How did that go?

[zapta]

... IMO a 3D printing service is best for the hobbyist.

Iterating on a 3D design thorough a printing service can be very time consuming.

Most of my project are small MCU based gadgets so I settled on this basic OpenScad design of snap-on customizable enclosure. Changing the case's dimension and holes can be done by changing a few lines of code and the new case is ready to use in an hour or two. I wish I could do the same with PCBs.

https://github.com/zapta/arm/blob/master/ir-control/3d/ir_control_case.stl

A few words of advice:
1. A second extruder is not as useful as I thought.
2. Prefer a fully enclosed 3D printer over an open frame one. It will allow you to print ABS which is a more machinable material (e.g. filing and sanding).
3. PEI is a great build plate material. You can get it on Amazon (use the recommended 3D double side adhesive) and install on any printer. It lasts forever and has very good first layer adhesion.

[Falcon69]

That part looks great, but maybe the fans could do with a rethink - they are blowing or sucking at a wall, basically, so cooling may be suboptimal. If you have have blowing and half sucking, there will be a temperature gradient across them (which may not matter). Perhaps if you made the thing hollow so cool air could enter or exhaust up the middle...

The fans actually will blow into a shroud that will direct the air toward the tip of the extruder to cool the plastic as it comes out. I'll have them on a variable speed controller.

[zapta]

That part looks great, but maybe the fans could do with a rethink - they are blowing or sucking at a wall, basically, so cooling may be suboptimal. If you have have blowing and half sucking, there will be a temperature gradient across them (which may not matter). Perhaps if you made the thing hollow so cool air could enter or exhaust up the middle...

The fans actually will blow into a shroud that will direct the air toward the tip of the extruder to cool the plastic as it comes out. I'll have them on a variable speed controller.

For ABS you want to cool only the filament path inside the extruder. For PLA you want to cool also the filament that comes out of the nozzle, except for first layer.