EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Other Equipment & Products => Topic started by: westfw on June 02, 2015, 04:13:44 am
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Not crowd-funded, but perhaps worth discussing:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)
Not likely, IMO :-(
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Well the article makes some contradictory statements. It says you only use 20% of the battery and this device give you the rest, or 80% To me, that claim means you gain another 400% or 500% depending on how you want to make the calculation, not 800%. The other thing, is what semiconductor that would be used for this device would work below 0.5V? The claims are either made up, lies, or bad math. You are likely to be able to double the life of a cell which is still a good thing, but 800% more is a joke.
Oh yes, I need to add:
The battery and device will not be able to produce the same output in amps as the native battery. I also seem to remember that the chemistry does not allow the same amount as discharge as is being claimed.
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Not a new concept, classic jewel thief circuit (voltage booster) perhaps, it's easily feasible. Except doubt it could fit in that form factor as it requires an inductor, and a few other parts, so probably vaporware.
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It's probably a Relaxation Oscillator, not an Amstrong Oscillator AKA Joule thief
w2aew made a video of a similar device but with larger components.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfgX93o8HzY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfgX93o8HzY)
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Not a new concept, classic jewel thief circuit (voltage booster) perhaps, it's easily feasible. Except doubt it could fit in that form factor as it requires an inductor, and a few other parts, so probably vaporware.
I suggest taking a look at the Enpirion range of dc-dc converters. Unfeasibly small, and their inductor is included within the package.
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Doesn't seem that crazy as a concept, many older or inexpensive devices do cut out or perform less optimally as soon as voltage just starts to sag well before the battery is dead.
It is just under very,very specific circumstances that this device will help and they are quoting really best case behavior all around for the right combo of battery and device.
Boosting 1.2 rechargable batteries up to 1.5 volts will also make it possible to use them in more places so seems handy just for that.
But no, it won't magically create 8x more energy, you have to already be wasting that much for it to reclaim it, 8x seems like a whole lot, but i could see getting a bit more juice out of batteries with this.
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Doesn't the ESR normally shoot through the roof when they are discharged enough when most devices would consider them empty?
This would mean that they might be able to power a LED in a joule thief, but they really can't be boosted up and used in anything that uses more current than a few (or a few tenths of) milliamps...
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In the words of the great Dave: "I smell bullshit"
It'll probably hasten the original cells drop from 1.5 to 1.4 in low draw devices,
And not able to extend high draw device lifespan by anything worth while.
All the while, producing a supply with plenty of ripple without a big cap on it.
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I JUST read this on Macworld. This smells like EPIC bullshit. Epic.
http://www.macworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html#tk.rss_all (http://www.macworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html#tk.rss_all)
Bob Roohparvar tells a killer story of industrial espionage. The robbery occurred at his Batteroo office space in a sprawling Silicon Valley office park. The target was intellectual property surrounding Batteriser, a simple metal sleeve that promises to give consumers up to eight times more life from their disposable batteries, AAA through D.
batteriser verticalBATTEROO
The crooks clearly knew the building layout, and exactly what they were looking for—namely, a breakthrough technology that could blow the lid off an alkaline battery industry that’s worth $3.4 billion annually in the US alone.
“It was a very, very professional job,” says Roohparvar. “They passed by all the offices with open doors, and then banged the hell out of my door, breaking it in. The doorknob was slammed so hard into the wall, it got stuck in the plaster. They took my hard disk and a bunch of USB drives. They took our Batteriser samples. They knew exactly how much time they had before the police would respond.”
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The story sounds like great PR. I don't believe it for a moment. I didn't believe the 80% unused figure either, but I was surprised to see how poorly many devices use batteries. "80% remaining" may be reasonable for some poorly designed devices, and that could include the apple keyboard illustrated.
Consider an alkaline battery discharge curve such as
http://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm (http://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm)
You can see that if you discharge it to 1.0V, almost all the power is gone - it will collapse shortly after. But if you discharge it to only 1.3V (using the 100mA curve), you've used only about 25% of the capacity.
A well-designed device won't give up at 1.3V. But how many things have you tried to run off Nicads (nominal 1.2V, a bit higher when freshly charged) and found they only work for a very short time ? I've always assumed that's because they want alkaline-level voltage and die at around 1.2V.
So I don't think this is entirely unreasonable, and could allow certain devices to get more out of a battery, or better still, operate off a rechargeable. If they're truly only $2.50 I'll certainly give one a try.
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In the words of the great Dave: "I smell bullshit"
Checking my boots now.
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That article makes my head hurt...
Let’s say you buy a new battery. You use it for a month and its voltage drops to 1.4. It’s now ostensibly dead at 1.4 volts, but if you slip on a Batteriser, its output increases to 1.5 volts for another month. That’s already a 2x increase in battery life.
Eventually the battery’s natural, unboosted output drops to 1.3 volts—but Batteriser keeps it at 1.5 volts for another month. Now you’ve realized a 3x increase in battery life. And so on, and so on. Roohparvar says Batteriser can continue to deliver a 1.5 volt charge in batteries that have discharged down to 0.6 volts. There are more than eight 0.1 volt steps between 0.6 and 1.5 volts, so, in grossly simplified terms, the Batteriser can extend operational battery life somewhere around a factor of eight.
:scared: :scared: :scared:
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I JUST read this on Macworld. This smells like EPIC bullshit. Epic.
http://www.macworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html#tk.rss_all (http://www.macworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html#tk.rss_all)
Bob Roohparvar tells a killer story of industrial espionage.
... snip story about theft ...
Then he goes on and says the stolen technology was protected by patent. Patented technology is freely available from the patent office! That's the deal on patents, you disclose the workings of your invention in a way that anybody can make it, and in return, you get the exclusive legal right to manufacture/license it for a period of time.
Maybe those thieves weren't so bright, after all.
I like the story about the keyboard batteries. The old batteries were placed in these magical boost converters, and then, to prove that the converter gave the batteries more capacity, they point out that the software claims the batteries are now at 100%! That's merely pointing out that the software is reporting a capacity based on the measured voltage. The capacity as reported by that method can't be relied upon after the batteries have gone through a boost regulator. It'll show 100% capacity until it suddenly drops off a cliff to near zero.
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FWIW here are some of those patent applications:
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150056476 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20150056476)
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785)
Might be more but this was a quick search.
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This story is spreading.
http://www.geek.com/news/a-2-50-sleeve-can-make-batteries-last-8x-longer-1624112/ (http://www.geek.com/news/a-2-50-sleeve-can-make-batteries-last-8x-longer-1624112/)
I think it's time for Dave to do a frontal assault on this one. Not that Dave listens to me. But people need to know this is bullshit.
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Seems the last two patent docs on google are missing the images, here is a link to other sources:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf)
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It's that batterizer not dangerous? On an alkaline battery the case is connected to the positive side. The metal band on the batterizer is connected to negative. And It looks like there are sharp edges. I smell shorts.
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If you short a penlite it becomes very very hot. Until it's depleted.
If your device thinks the battery is empty at 1.35 volts, the device is crap.
A penlite is not to be considered empty until the cell voltage (under load) is below 1 Volts.
Discharge cureves: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf)
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I think it's time for Dave to do a frontal assault on this one. Not that Dave listens to me. But people need to know this is bullshit.
I saw the story about 4 hours ago and was all revved upand started planning a video, but I had to head home, won't be back in the lab until tomorrow.
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I think it's time for Dave to do a frontal assault on this one. Not that Dave listens to me. But people need to know this is bullshit.
I saw the story about 4 hours ago and was all revved upand started planning a video, but I had to head home, won't be back in the lab until tomorrow.
That's OK, gives you all night to do a slooooow burn. Then tomorrow we add oxygen and watch you go off!!!
Can't wait to see the video!! :-DD
Ozwolf
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Seems the last two patent docs on google are missing the images, here is a link to other sources:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf)
The pictures show an insulated cap over the positive battery terminal to provide a boosted output.
But have you ever looked at an apple magic mouse ? It has an annoying plastic shield in front of the positive battery connector which means it's unreliable unless you have a battery terminal that's a smaller diameter than the width of the hole, and taller than the depth of the hole. And the 1mm thickness of the device seems a lot for many battery compartments.
As noted above, I think there are a bunch of applications where this will get more out of the battery. But there are also many that have decent battery management to start with, and others that will not be able to support the dimensions. I hope the remainder are still a sufficient market.
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One other concern: What's the quiescent drain of this boost regulator? For some very low-drain devices, or applications where the device is left switched off for long periods, will the quiescent drain kill the battery, or at least cause it to die faster than it would have died without the battery sleeve?
Sometimes the battery management really should be in the device, not in the battery sleeve.
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One other concern: What's the quiescent drain of this boost regulator? For some very low-drain devices, or applications where the device is left switched off for long periods, will the quiescent drain kill the battery, or at least cause it to die faster than it would have died without the battery sleeve?
Sometimes the battery management really should be in the device, not in the battery sleeve.
Agreed! battery operated devices are usually not on all the time, only a few are.
That alone will make this contraption useless for most cases, and the devices that are designed to be on all the time like a smoke detector or battery powered temperature controllers would have already adequate power management, or at least they should.
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One other concern: What's the quiescent drain of this boost regulator? For some very low-drain devices, or applications where the device is left switched off for long periods, will the quiescent drain kill the battery, or at least cause it to die faster than it would have died without the battery sleeve?
Sometimes the battery management really should be in the device, not in the battery sleeve.
Well, that's it isn't it? If using boost converters on the regulator side INSIDE the device was a great advantage, manufacturers would jump at it to get extended battery life. I imagine that very low power devices could benefit, but not anything that has to continuously transmit signals or draw any real current.
Note: I'm not talking about using boost/buck converters on something like a RasPi to eliminate linear regulators due to increased efficiency. Doesn't matter. Dave said he's on this one. We'll put this to rest fast.
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One other concern: What's the quiescent drain of this boost regulator? For some very low-drain devices, or applications where the device is left switched off for long periods, will the quiescent drain kill the battery, or at least cause it to die faster than it would have died without the battery sleeve?
Sometimes the battery management really should be in the device, not in the battery sleeve.
Well, that's it isn't it? If using boost converters on the regulator side INSIDE the device was a great advantage, manufacturers would jump at it to get extended battery life. I imagine that very low power devices could benefit, but not anything that has to continuously transmit signals or draw any real current.
Why would they? They don't have to buy your batteries. It IS a great advantage, the problem is the device maker doesn't care, it's the consumer that cares, but only after they've already bought the device. It's the classic problem of the device maker being completely separated from the maintenance costs of the device.
Building construction companies don't have to pay your electricity bills in the summer, so they don't care about how much/little insulation is used unless you go out of your way to request it. Instead they cut costs to minimize their bid, and you're the one that has to pay in the end if you didn't have the foresight to specify double/triple paned windows, extra insulation, etc.
Some devices could be advertised that they have minimal power consumption, but some can't. Nobody is going to buy a TV because the box says the remote control batteries last twice as long as the competition. Instead they just minimize cost and you're left swapping batteries every month, or buying your own universal remote.
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If using boost converters on the regulator side INSIDE the device was a great advantage, manufacturers would jump at it to get extended battery life.
Many have, haven't they? Despite their Apple wireless keyboard example showing "dead" batteries at 1.3V, my apple wireless trackpad runs about a month on a set of Eneloop rechargeables (1.2V nominal.) (I'll measure the voltage next time I have to change the batteries. But, that'll be about a month from now...)
If your device thinks the battery is empty at 1.35 volts, the device is crap.
Yes, this. OTOH, I bet there are a lot of "crap" devices out there.
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I rushed a video on this one, rendering now.
The usual expected 10min video turned into a 30 minute epic! :palm:
It's done in the style of a tutorial on debunking products, with a 7 step Carl Sagan style Product Baloney Detection Kit!
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Dave said he's on this one. We'll put this to rest fast.
The result is as everyone would expect, so hardly any spoilers, it's not even close to being as good as it claims. Although it's possible to cherry pick a bad product and demo this thing at a particular current to get a reasonably impressive boost in battery life.
One of the main problems, apart from the deceptive claim of 1.35-1.4V typical cutout voltages, is obviously the efficiency of the converter. It must be designed for any product, from uA to maybe an 1A peak current, and the efficiency will vary drastically over that current range. So much (maybe all in many cases) unused energy benefit you do get will be lost in the efficiency.
I think I may have forgot to mention that the product could actually decrease your life in many cases. Oh well, too late, headed home...
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I think I may have forgot to mention that the product could actually decrease your life in many cases. Oh well, too late, headed home...
Nope, added that quickly and re-rendered remotely from home. Uploading now...
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And the 1mm thickness of the device seems a lot for many battery compartments.
Yep, I've had numerous devices were a standard AA cell was a tight fit, either lengthways or width ways.
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I think I may have forgot to mention that the product could actually decrease your life in many cases. Oh well, too late, headed home...
Decrease my life... I guess that would be bad too
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Nice vid Dave. Some devices don't have the proper filtering to handle a boost converter either. So this device may introduce noise and cause issues for those devices.
About the only device where I could see this thing be even remotely useful is in badly designed cheapo LED flashlights.
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I have a Duracell 300 lumens LED flashlight that still works with just 4.2V from 4 AAA batteries.
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Best of all, your device's battery meter will cease to work with the batteriser. Brilliant. Job well done.
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There ARE classes of devices where "slightly used" batteries (20% and/or 1.3V wouldn't surprise me) are thrown away on a regular basis.
I'm thinking of the wireless microphones used in theater and performance arts, and the radios used by emergency services folk.
But somehow I can't see them using a gadget like this to improve lifetime :-)
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The AA discharge curves show in Daves video assume a constant current draw, but assuming the load is taking a reasonably constant current, the boost regulator will be pulling more current from the cell the lower it's terminal voltage becomes. Add in the increase in internal resistance as the cell discharges and I can see the system going into a very rapid death spiral beyond a certain point.
I'd be interested to know how much current the boost regulator is rated for as well. They show a picture of a radio control car on their web page, which could be drawing a pretty high current, with e.g. a stalled motor or switching from forward to reverse quickly.
Possibly this has a more useful application for powering devices from NiCd/NiMh cells that don't work correctly with the lower cell voltages.
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About the only device where I could see this thing be even remotely useful is in badly designed cheapo LED flashlights.
Most good quality LED light have a boost circuit already built in.
There are probably a few other applications that could benefit from such a circuit but definitely not the mainstream.
But with this popularity and some big retailer may be signing up, who knows, may be we will see this device everywhere soon.
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There ARE classes of devices where "slightly used" batteries (20% and/or 1.3V wouldn't surprise me) are thrown away on a regular basis.
I'm thinking of the wireless microphones used in theater and performance arts, and the radios used by emergency services folk.
I don't know much about wireless microphones, but as a ham radio operator who has done some coordination with law enforcement and emergency services workers, I pay attention to their radios. I've never seen one that's not operated with rechargeable batteries. Some may have the capability to be operated with alkaline cells as a backup for those times when charging capability is unavailable, but that's not a common way to power them for routine use.
But somehow I can't see them using a gadget like this to improve lifetime :-)
Absolutely! The one thing which an emergency services worker would hate worse than a short lifetime of alkaline batteries would be a battery lifetime that ended suddenly without warning. And that's exactly what this gadget would produce.
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There ARE classes of devices where "slightly used" batteries (20% and/or 1.3V wouldn't surprise me) are thrown away on a regular basis.
I'm thinking of the wireless microphones used in theater and performance arts, and the radios used by emergency services folk.
Oh, that's correct -- where wireless mics and IEM receivers are used professionally, all batteries are replaced before each performance.
So this means that nobody on the tour ever needs to buy AA batteries for MagLites ever.
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It's BS. Any device that's AA/AAA powered will already have a boost converter and adding another only serves to defeat the low battery detection at the cost of efficiency loss. Pass.
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Has anyone seen this video?
Batteriser Testing Series - Batteriser with new GPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)
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I'm not an EE, so I'll just drop this thought here..
1- Let's assume the Batteriser would increase the battery life by 10%(just a crude average of poorly and properly powered products) when used after the first "cutoff-death"
but
2- the Batteriser dc/dc converter will have an efficiency of, say, 70%?
So, either you take the hassle of always carrying some batterisers and slapping them in right at the first cutoff(plus you device died one time, and is gonna die again, soon), or you're actually decreasing battery life.
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I'm not an EE, so I'll just drop this thought here..
1- Let's assume the Batteriser would increase the battery life by 10%(just a crude average of poorly and properly powered products) when used after the first "cutoff-death"
but
2- the Batteriser dc/dc converter will have an efficiency of, say, 70%?
So, either you take the hassle of always carrying some batterisers and slapping them in right at the first cutoff(plus you device died one time, and is gonna die again, soon), or you're actually decreasing battery life.
This type of boost converter usually has an efficient bypass mode.
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I'm not an EE, so I'll just drop this thought here..
1- Let's assume the Batteriser would increase the battery life by 10%(just a crude average of poorly and properly powered products) when used after the first "cutoff-death"
but
2- the Batteriser dc/dc converter will have an efficiency of, say, 70%?
So, either you take the hassle of always carrying some batterisers and slapping them in right at the first cutoff(plus you device died one time, and is gonna die again, soon), or you're actually decreasing battery life.
This type of boost converter usually has an efficient bypass mode.
Of course. I've been too naïve..but I still think efficiency * long time...hmmm