Anti 'Made in China' Household - Is it Possible?

[dannyf]

My intention was to strike up conversation...

If you object others calling it dumb, you probably will agree that it is unwise to do so.

Extremely unwise, in my view.

[dannyf]

Just an example: a BMW X5 I just looked at over the weekend has 2/3 of its parts from Germany, minimal amount from North America.

The rest? unknown and I am sure a substantial amount of it from China - which is the largest auto parts manufacturer / exporter in the world.

Sure, you can take a simplistic view to it, at your own risk.

[dfmischler]

There are people not far from me who find it easier than most to avoid Chinese products.  No, I don't mean the local Native Americans, but the Amish.

[dannyf]

There are people not far from me who find it easier than most to avoid Chinese products.

To borrow from a commercial: avoiding made-in-China is so easy even cavemen can do it.

That's the risk of being simplistic.

[dannyf]

I learned this today at a conference: the golden combination in manufacturing today is designed in California + made in china.

[poorchava]

Made in [not China] means only that the last major manufacturing step was done in that country. Such process is usually putting together several bugger parts, all of which were made in China. That's how it usually looks anyway.

I doubt that for example all of the injection molded parts in your fridge were made in Germany,  or that all metal castings in your Japanese car were manufactured in Japan.

[dannyf]

"Made in [not China] means only that the last major manufacturing step was done in that country."

Your made-in-XYZ is more like "assembled-in-XYZ". I would argue that for many of ours products, assembly is usually one of the least value-add steps. Iphone for example has about $5 in each handset attributed to China's assemblly. The bulk of the vaule-add is done by Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Sony, ....

Take cars for example. The X5s. Are assembled in the US - no one calls them made-in-USA. Most Japanese cars sold in the US are assembled in the US - no one calls them made-in-USA. Many GM/ford/chrysler cars sold in the US are. Assembled in Canada or. Mexico. Yet, they are classified as made-in-USA.

Again, the whole discussion is meaningless if one doesn't define what "made-in-XYZ" means.

[coppice]

Again, the whole discussion is meaningless if one doesn't define what "made-in-XYZ" means.

For most purposes "Made in XYZ" is well defined by labelling regulations, but its generally defined to be the least useful measure of a product's origins - Its usually the place the last stage of production occurred. I know European producers who at one time had their cartons made in Japan, so their products could ship in a box that said "Made in Japan". Regulations were changed to stop that kind of deception. What we have now is consistent, but isn't a whole lot more useful.

For the last 25 years the vast majority of heat pumps have been made in Thailand or China, yet most fridges say "Made in wherever the pump was assembled with a case". That's being a little deceptive, while following the rules.

I recently looked at a high end microwave oven from Panasonic which is "Made in Japan". It turns out to be assembled in Japan from bought in Chinese parts, and uses a super low lifetime magnetron. Forums are full of complaints about it. That's really purposeful deception, as the only purpose of assembly in Japan appears to be to have the "Made in Japan" label. I wonder if this could be the early stages of a trend.

[dannyf]

Italian handbags are a great example. 99% of luxury brand handbags are made in China, from a few hundred dollars ones to thousands of dollars.

Those bags are shipped to Italy, without accessories (like zip locks or metal clips, or logos) as generics. Then locks are stitched in and dada, you have a "made-in-Italy" handbags.

That's really purposeful deception,

I think it depends on your definition of "made-in". To me, where most of the value-add activities taking place is where the product is "made" - I cannot care less about where it is assembled or where the parts come from, like engineering or r&d.

So by that definition, an iPhone is made in the US, and those italian handbags are made in Italy, and I assume the same for your microwave oven.

[Bud]

IKEA furniture may not be made in China but some items are made in Belarus which also has a questionable human rights record. Your call.

Another troll on the forum pushing his political

[coppice]

Italian handbags are a great example. 99% of luxury brand handbags are made in China, from a few hundred dollars ones to thousands of dollars.

Those bags are shipped to Italy, without accessories (like zip locks or metal clips, or logos) as generics. Then locks are stitched in and dada, you have a "made-in-Italy" handbags.

That's really purposeful deception,

I think it depends on your definition of "made-in". To me, where most of the value-add activities taking place is where the product is "made" - I cannot care less about where it is assembled or where the parts come from, like engineering or r&d.

So by that definition, an iPhone is made in the US, and those italian handbags are made in Italy, and I assume the same for your microwave oven.

Quite a lot of products say "Designed in XYZ. Made in ZYX".Saying the iphone is designed in the US might be OK.... although I'm not sure how much of the design is actually still in the US. Saying something is "Made in the US" just because it was designed there would be pretty weird labelling, wouldn't it?

[coppice]

IKEA furniture may not be made in China but some items are made in Belarus which also has a questionable human rights record. Your call.

Another troll on the forum pushing his political

He's not even accurate. IKEA make a lot of stuff in China.

[BravoV]

Oh yeah, don't forget chopstick too, watch this video till the end -> NOT made in China 

[coppice]

Oh yeah, don't forget chopstick too, watch this video till the end -> NOT made in China 

So that's where those sub-standard chopsticks we often see in Asia come from 

I love the way Oakland has contracted for a bridge from a company that has never built one. China has built more bridges in the last 10 years than the rest of the world built in the last century. You'd think they could have found someone there with a track record.

[dannyf]

Saying something is "Made in the US" just because it was designed there would be pretty weird labelling, wouldn't it?

Depends on your perspective.

If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;

If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

[coppice]

Saying something is "Made in the US" just because it was designed there would be pretty weird labelling, wouldn't it?

Depends on your perspective.

If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;

If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

If you use the location of the marketers then practically everything can be labelled "Made in <whatever country its being sold in>.". This seems a bizarre definition.

[dannyf]

If you use the location of the marketers then practically everything can be labelled "Made in <whatever country its being sold in>.". This seems a bizarre definition.

Depends on your perspective.

If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;

If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

[coppice]

If you use the location of the marketers then practically everything can be labelled "Made in <whatever country its being sold in>.". This seems a bizarre definition.

Depends on your perspective.

If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;

If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

So if I take a 100% Chinese product, and merely market it in the US, you think I should label it "Made in USA"? I've seen some funky definitions of "Made in ...", but that's a new one.

[eas]

Fair enough if a product is genuinely faulty and it fails early in its life, the warranty is there to cover it. But beyond that "burning in period" I feel that a good, high quality, well built product should last many years beyond the initial warranty period. After all, isn't that the point of warranty; to warrant against defects, rather than dictating or indicating the working life of a product?

I would have to say that probably everything you have listed is made using materials, components, and/or sub-assemblies from china. I believe it impossible to do what you want.

IMO the only assurance you have is to select major brand/s as they have a reputation to uphold.
That way hopefully any substantial faults/failures result in product recall.

In my experience, a large percentage of well-established US consumer goods brands failed to maintain quality when they shifted their supply chain to China. In some cases, they seem to be getting things back under control, but I think their brands will be tarnished for decades to come, or if they aren't, they should be.

[dannyf]

So if I take a 100% Chinese product, and merely market it in the US, you think I should label it "Made in USA"? I've seen some funky definitions of "Made in ...", but that's a new one.

Reproduce here in its entirety purely for your reading enjoyment:

Depends on your perspective.

If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;

If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

To borrow a commercial, it is so simple even cavemen understand it,

[tautech]

Fair enough if a product is genuinely faulty and it fails early in its life, the warranty is there to cover it. But beyond that "burning in period" I feel that a good, high quality, well built product should last many years beyond the initial warranty period. After all, isn't that the point of warranty; to warrant against defects, rather than dictating or indicating the working life of a product?

I would have to say that probably everything you have listed is made using materials, components, and/or sub-assemblies from china. I believe it impossible to do what you want.

IMO the only assurance you have is to select major brand/s as they have a reputation to uphold.
That way hopefully any substantial faults/failures result in product recall.

In my experience, a large percentage of well-established US consumer goods brands failed to maintain quality when they shifted their supply chain to China. In some cases, they seem to be getting things back under control, but I think their brands will be tarnished for decades to come, or if they aren't, they should be.

I agree entirely.
I'm quite sure the problem is worldwide, we see it here too in NZ.
I think many companies have "dropped the ball" re QC of Asia made goods and as you say, they are "tarnished" for decades. This is common worldwide when "bean counters" opinions are given priority over designers/EE's/technicians.
I hear echoes of "I told you so" in company meetings from the tech's, and it takes good leadership to manage the risk.
One I am aware of, sources all the componentry and then supplies the Asian fab house in order to reduce the risk.

[TMM]

There is no need to avoid made in China products. It is not China that is at fault. They just meet the contract specs of their customers. Aren't Apple products made in China? I'm no Apple fanboy (quite the opposite) but the manufacturing quality is first class. They are the current big source of cheap labour and low cost due to lax environmental standards, favourable taxation incentives  and so on. As they clamp down on polution and workers seek higher wages they will move up the manufacturing quality scale for two reasons. Firstly their own improving standard of living and growing middle class will demand better products as domestic consumption expands as a proportion of their economy. Secondly they will become less competitive relative to new emerging economies and need to rely more on a quality edge. I guarantee in ten years or less we will be having a made in Nigeria debate, or Indonesia or India. Anywhere there is a vast supply of cheap labour. The only thing holding the Indians back is a slow moving democracy mired in red tape and corruption. The Chinese are merely a fast responding Communist government but corruption is still a problem.

After WW2 Japan, which had the poor reputation now enjoyed by China, stepped up and improved quality to where they were held in as high regard as the Germans. A Leica camera may have been the pinnacle but no-one was ashamed to carry a Nikon or Canon, both of which innovated as well as anyone. Here in Australia and probably elsewhere Korean cars started out as cheap and well behind the cutting edge in features, styling and build quality. But not anymore. Japanese cars were the same initially. Chinese cars will catch up in surprisingly quick time. That is certain.

The more things change the more they stay the same. We've seen it all before.

Well said.

[coppice]

IMO the only assurance you have is to select major brand/s as they have a reputation to uphold.
That way hopefully any substantial faults/failures result in product recall.

Have you any evidence to support that idea? Each time a big problem occurs with products from China - melamine in baby milk formula, toxic finishes on toys, etc. - people have been paying high prices for big named western brands, only to find cheap shoddy good have been sold with no product safety testing and ongoing QA being conducted by the big global brand. Chinese companies trying to build a global brand, like HuaWei, are rapidly improving their products. OEMs and ODMs selling into global brands are only required to achieve the absolute lowest cost. That forces these suppliers into a race to the bottom, where they eventually have to cut serious corners to survive.

[belasajgo]

In Europe you can find quality brands like Liebherr or Miele, where all the parts of the products are manufactured in Germany and / or Austria (not Australia!).

Bosch has today two product series, one "Made in Germany" (actually it should be "components made in China" and "assembled and tested in Germany") sold in Western Europe, and one "Made in <not Germany>" (most of them "assembled in Turkey" with "components made in China") sold in Eastern Europe. Most of the turkish Bosch products don't last as much as the german products. If a german Bosch product works fine for 8-10 years, a turkish Bosch product only works for 2-5 years.

Something similar is going on with the Siemens products, once they were a trusted brand, today they also dropped slightly the quality of their products...

So if a brand had once a good reputation, it does not mean that you get today the same quality products as a few years ago.

[dannyf]

"Made in Germany"

I have had a few actually "made in germany" cars. Great driving pleasure, sometimes wonderful engineering, absolutely shitty workmanship.