Author Topic: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?  (Read 266160 times)

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Offline AlexRus77

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2021, 01:55:33 pm »
Actually it's dual diode in TO220 package, so it'll probably be fine.
Yes, but chinese PSU for > 6A use two dual diodes often. It reduces commom heating of it.
And a label on the back socket "24V 8A" is fake. :) If this ouput will be used for powering of another device, you cannot have 8A. :)
 

Online DavidAlfa

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2021, 03:36:09 pm »
Well, the power when the tip is hot would be much lower.
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Offline exe

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2021, 04:15:03 pm »
another test on youtube:

Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. One thing that confuses me is that when soldering big  polygons it still consumes only 25W max: https://youtu.be/j1N16azXx_g?t=1232  :-//
 

Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2021, 04:44:35 pm »
Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. One thing that confuses me is that when soldering big  polygons it still consumes only 25W max: https://youtu.be/j1N16azXx_g?t=1232  :-//

Seems like tip doesn't have good thermal coupling with board and thus is not cooling down and thus station doesn't have reason to increase power. Also this is wrongly shaped and too small tip. If you want to solder such connections use large chisel/bevel tip not small knife tip like this. Tips supplied with station are mostly useless since one is conical, another it bend conical and third is small blade. Not one is good for general soldering or for high thermal mass boards like this. Just buy better shaped and bigger tip if you want to solder large thermal mass connections. Test with water shows you that station doesn't have problem to supply even way too much power. The bottleneck is thermal coupling between tip and board. If you cool tip down then station will compensate. If tip is hot then station doesn't have anything to do only to maintain temperature with small amount of power.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2021, 05:35:35 pm »
Does this mean c245 doesn't have advantages over t12 when using a knife cartridge?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2021, 06:17:36 pm »
Does this mean c245 doesn't have advantages over t12 when using a knife cartridge?
Depends on implementation of particular tip. AFAIK even smaller JBC cartridges usually are better. There are high performance JBC cartridges with the same working surface size as regular ones for a reason. Say a regular 2.2mm C245907 and a high performance C245407. Also there are long life C245E with thicker iron plating at expense of worse performance due to reduced area of copper inside them. What matters is not only tip size as such but how good is thermal coupling between the heater/temperature sensor and work surface. By making that distance shorter and making it less slim, performance gets improved. But it may become harder to get into some densely populated areas. So if you see a long narrow tip, it will suck.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 06:26:55 pm by wraper »
 

Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2021, 07:10:09 pm »
Does this mean c245 doesn't have advantages over t12 when using a knife cartridge?

This depends on what you solder. Even small pins on chip may have lot of thermal mass if connected to ground plane. In such situation C245 should have room to be better.
I don't think so.

C245 has bigger peak power than T12 and thus will be better by brute force alone. With higher peak power C245 will be superior in any codition even with smaller tip since it recovers and reacts faster since heater can deliver more heat in same time. No matter the power demand or condition. Perhaps C245 has better coupling between tip and thermocouple also? That would also improve response. But that doesn't matter when the power is different. But this applies only if enough heat is removed from tip.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 04:40:02 am by ntdrt »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2021, 07:22:37 pm »
C245 has bigger peak power than T12 and thus will be better by brute force alone. With higher peak power C245 will be superior in any codition since it recovers and reacts faster since heater can deliver more heat in same time. No matter the power demand or condition. Perhaps C245 has better coupling between tip and thermocouple also? That would also improve response. But that doesn't matter when the power is different.
You are wrong in this regard. It does matter a lot. Maximum power of the heater does not matter much if only a fraction of it can be delivered to the tip due to thermal resistance. Especially considering that temperature sensor is much closer to the heater rather than to the tip. In smaller tips heater power only matters for fast heat up after power off or standby (unless power is too small). But when actually soldering only a fraction of is will be delivered even if you place the tip on an ideal heatsink. And soldering station will happily report set temperature even when it's far from that on the tip, as it actually is where the sensor is located.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 07:29:14 pm by wraper »
 

Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2021, 07:35:57 pm »
C245 has bigger peak power than T12 and thus will be better by brute force alone. With higher peak power C245 will be superior in any codition since it recovers and reacts faster since heater can deliver more heat in same time. No matter the power demand or condition. Perhaps C245 has better coupling between tip and thermocouple also? That would also improve response. But that doesn't matter when the power is different.
You are wrong in this regard. It does matter a lot. Maximum power of the heater does not matter much if only a fraction of it can be delivered to the tip due to thermal resistance. Especially considering temperature sensor is much closer to the heater rather than the tip.

In absolute sense yes, you are right.

But we can assume reasonable resistances. No tip will be designed such heater has terrible resistance to tip. All integrated cartriges will be in same region. +10% better transfer doesn't matter if you deliver +50% power instead. Do you believe that Hakko developed so much better heat transfer than JBC so even with +100% power JBC can't compare?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 04:43:10 am by ntdrt »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2021, 07:58:49 pm »
But we can assume reasonable resistances. No tip will be designed such heater has terrible resistance to tip. All integrated cartriges will be in same region. +10% better transfer doesn't matter if you deliver +50% power instead. Do you believe that Hakko developed so much better heat transfer than JBC so even with +100% power JBC can't compare?
You won't deliver more heat. Since heating power will be limited by temperature sensor. Having 50W or 200W heater does not matter when delivering 20W, already causes temperature on the temperature sensor to reach set temperature. Heater power does not matter when the bottleneck is somewhere else. It's way more obvious when comparing stations Like Ersa I-CON Nano and large I-CON which use the same heater and tips. They have 2 times different peak power due to different voltage (16,5 and 24V respectively), but tests showed that it makes any difference in performance only when using larger tips.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 07:01:28 am by wraper »
 

Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2021, 08:10:40 pm »
But we can assume reasonable resistances. No tip will be designed such heater has terrible resistance to tip. All integrated cartriges will be in same region. +10% better transfer doesn't matter if you deliver +50% power instead. Do you believe that Hakko developed so much better heat transfer than JBC so even with +100% power JBC can't compare?
You won't deliver more heat. Since heating power will be limited by temperature sensor. Having 50W or 200W heater does not matter when delivering 20W, already causes temperature on the temperature sensor to reach set temperature. Heater power does not matter when the bottleneck is somewhere else. It's way more obvious when comparing stations Like Ersa I-NON Nano and large I-CON. They have 2 times different peak power, but tests showed that it makes any difference only when using larger tips.

Heater is resistor. For example 1ohm. If you need this much heat to bring tip from 280 back to 300 degrees target, then 24V into 1ohm takes less time then heating with 24V into 2ohm. If your tip has 300 target temperature more of the time you will transfer more heat. In comparison if your tip has 280 longer because your lower power heater needs more time to produce same heat then you will transfer less heat. It will be maybe small difference when you need small amount of heat sure. But the advatage is there always. No matter the condition or power requirement.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 08:15:41 pm by ntdrt »
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2021, 08:18:17 pm »
Heater is resistor. For example 1ohm. If you need this much heat to bring tip from 280 back to 300 degrees target, then 24V into 1ohm takes less time than heating with 24V into 2ohm. If your tip has 300 target temperature more of the time you will transfer more heat. In comparison if your tip has 280 longer because your lower power heater needs more time to produce same heat then you will transfer less heat. It will be maybe small difference when you need small amount of heat sure. But the advatage is there always. No matter the condition or power requirement.
You miss the fact that station will not even try to deliver maximum power, since when touching a solder joint with a narrow tip, there will be no rapid drop of temperature on temperature sensor.
 

Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2021, 08:27:29 pm »
Heater is resistor. For example 1ohm. If you need this much heat to bring tip from 280 back to 300 degrees target, then 24V into 1ohm takes less time than heating with 24V into 2ohm. If your tip has 300 target temperature more of the time you will transfer more heat. In comparison if your tip has 280 longer because your lower power heater needs more time to produce same heat then you will transfer less heat. It will be maybe small difference when you need small amount of heat sure. But the advatage is there always. No matter the condition or power requirement.
You miss the fact that station will not even try to deliver maximum power, since when touching a solder joint with a narrow tip, there will be no rapid drop of temperature on temperature sensor.

You are at point where you know temperature is down. You know you need heat. What is faster? 20W or 200W heater?
If your tips have same construction then only heater and aggresive PID controller can make difference. If you hold back your powerful heater with really slow control then yes your heater is useless. But if you use your more powerful heater wisely, you will get back temperature faster and deliver more heat.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 04:44:15 am by ntdrt »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2021, 08:57:55 pm »
You are at point where you know temperature is down. You know you need heat. What is faster? 20W or 200W heater?
If your tips have same construction then only heater and aggresive PID controller can make difference. If you hold back your powerful heater with really slow control then yes your heater is useless. But if you use your more powerful heater wisely, you will get back temperature faster and deliver more heat.
Station applies maximum power only when there is a very rapid temperature drop on the sensor, because otherwise there will be a huge temperature overshoot which may damage PCB. And station doesn't even know if small or large tip is used. You may use the best PID ever, but tips have a significant thermal inertia. So you cannot just apply max power on the heater and expect there will be no temperature overshoot.
 
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Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2021, 09:43:30 pm »
You are at point where you know temperature is down. You know you need heat. What is faster? 20W or 200W heater?
If your tips have same construction then only heater and aggresive PID controller can make difference. If you hold back your powerful heater with really slow control then yes your heater is useless. But if you use your more powerful heater wisely, you will get back temperature faster and deliver more heat.
Station applies maximum power only when there is a very rapid temperature drop on the sensor, because otherwise there will be a huge temperature overshoot which may damage PCB. And station doesn't even know if small or large tip is used. You may use the best PID ever, but tips have a significant thermal inertia. So you cannot just apply max power on the heater and expect there will be no temperature overshoot.

Station sees temperate delta and can deliver power based on smallest tip. If the difference is too small more power will not help. Since maximum average power will be bellow what low power station can make. Thank you, now I get what do you mean.
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2021, 10:33:40 pm »
Seems like tip doesn't have good thermal coupling with board and thus is not cooling down and thus station doesn't have reason to increase power. Also this is wrongly shaped and too small tip. If you want to solder such connections use large chisel/bevel tip not small knife tip like this. Tips supplied with station are mostly useless since one is conical, another it bend conical and third is small blade. Not one is good for general soldering or for high thermal mass boards like this. Just buy better shaped and bigger tip if you want to solder large thermal mass connections. Test with water shows you that station doesn't have problem to supply even way too much power. The bottleneck is thermal coupling between tip and board. If you cool tip down then station will compensate. If tip is hot then station doesn't have anything to do only to maintain temperature with small amount of power.

Tip looks similar or a bit bigger than the T12-KU tip I have. Hakko station can draw 40-45W with that tip, if its properly coupled. So I'm sure the JBC could easily do better, at least 60W or so.
But yeah you are right, there is no good coupling as he didn't apply fresh solder. So you can't expect it to draw much power.
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Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2021, 04:36:37 pm »
Tip looks similar or a bit bigger than the T12-KU tip I have. Hakko station can draw 40-45W with that tip, if its properly coupled. So I'm sure the JBC could easily do better, at least 60W or so.
But yeah you are right, there is no good coupling as he didn't apply fresh solder. So you can't expect it to draw much power.

Do you mean JBC station or clone? JBC seems to have aggressive firmware with large temperature overshoot/offset. Not sure if this is intentional or if all JBC stations behave like this: https://youtu.be/xGPVhv5fZGs?t=1180. But if this is intentional then JBC at "same" temperature will perform better since higher temperature is used instead. Clone will most likely not behave like original station in this regard. And indeed T3A seems to have tigher control and not overshoot as much: https://youtu.be/26KXtHZqhMg?t=730. This is another thing to watch out for. If firmware is overshooting like this then station will seem to perform better since 20C offset is enough to make difference. Higher temperature impacts how much energy is stored in tip, higher temperature will allow faster heat transfer and also higher temperature will help regulation since station has wider range to work with and can use more power. Also if melting point of solder is X then the more temperature over X you set the more can temperature drop until it impacts your soldering (think about it like it's buffer). So setting temperature higher is big deal since it impacts soldering in many ways.

I don't think this comparison between T12 vs C245 is important anyway. T12 clones are much cheaper and they work good enough for most things. If you are not sure if C245 makes sense then you don't need it and T12 will work fine. I don't think buying C245 makes sense unless you need the extra power for high thermal mass boards/connections. Even if C245 is better on lower power, it can't beat T12 in price to performance.  For now at least. If you don't care about price then sure get C245, it's better platform but not in value.
 

Offline mastershake

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2021, 06:06:52 pm »
firmware 1.19 out 8/20 for those who have this station.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2021, 08:47:19 pm »
Is changelog available?
 

Offline mastershake

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2021, 09:17:44 pm »
it said it was to make 245 temps more stable (translated). that was all from 1.19
 

Online DavidAlfa

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2021, 09:40:50 pm »
All cheap C245 tips I tested worked much worse than $2 T12 clones.
Really, don't bother, it's a waste of money, buy genuine tips or stay with T12 if you can't afford them.
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Offline Ungolian

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2021, 11:47:53 pm »
I've been following the threads for the Aixun, the KSGER, and the Unisolder.  They all seem to be great choices.   At minimum, they can all use the JBC 245 handle and tips, but with different price points, levels of involvement, and concerns.  The firmware for all 3 are acceptable.  Aixun has 3 firmware updates (technically 2 since the second one was broken), DavidAlfa covered the KSGER, and Unisolder is well supported also.  Updating the firmware has degrees of difficulty.  Aixun is the easiest.  Connect it to your computer (USB C I think), download the software, find the EEVblog thread on how to navigate the Chinese menu, and you're good.  The KSGER needs an ST-link, and you probably have to solder some headers to the board. The Unisolder needs a mini A, and probably a generic third party hex loader.   Unisolder also costs the most.  And you need a casing for it.  And you might need to mount a transformer inside it.  And you might enjoy it.  The Aixun and KSGER are generally just plug into the wall (with some concerns about safety), but there is mini version of the KSGER too that you can use with an adapter or bench PSU.  At this point, I think it just comes down to individual choice/expectations.     
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 12:58:31 am by Ungolian »
 

Offline Melman

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2021, 03:47:56 am »
Looks like they've released a new version for C210/C115 tips with a much nicer stand. Wonder if this will work with C245 as well...


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003156907430.html
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 03:50:01 am by Melman »
 

Offline mastershake

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2021, 03:50:16 am »
i see it they changed the name to the t3b. dang i wonder what else they changed they did move the connector to the back and the power button to the front. the price is higher from most sellers though. this new model is only rated at 96w max from what im finding. i do much prefer the new way of connecting the iron and stand though. wonder if there will be a t3c with the a model updated the same way as this one is.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 04:03:07 am by mastershake »
 

Offline ntdrt

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Re: Any opinions on the AiXun T3A?
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2021, 05:49:59 am »
T3B could use similar front panel/controller but power supply would be different since T3B uses half the power. I don't think T210 with higher price can compare with T245/T3A. Only if there was another version with T3B layout and power of T3A... I think T3A has it's stand and layout thanks to compatibility with T12/936. It would be nice to have T245 only version tho.

If stand can be purchased alone also retrofit with adapter would be possible for T3A. You could route stand contact from banana on back to free pin on front then you would have the same one cable to stand just connector would be in front not back and connector would be different. This may not be possible if dimensions of T210 handle are different. Maybe T210 has smaller collar diameter?
UPDATE: T210 is much much smaller handle so T245 can't fit its much bigger in every dimension. So T245 stand of this style would be needed.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 05:58:26 am by ntdrt »
 


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