EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Other Equipment & Products => Topic started by: hacklordsniper on September 23, 2011, 06:40:56 pm
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Cool..
In a previous job I used to use something similar but I would contact adhese the pcb down to a flat plate before cutting.. sometimes it hard to get flat pcb material... esp the thin stuff.
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I hope you'll be complaining loudly to the supplier.
At that price, I'd expect a replacement unit.
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Are your sure that's the actual full power trace and not a voltage monitoring signal line? Because that sounds fucking insane.
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I have taken video of the problem
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=lMSz4vDCKsg (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=lMSz4vDCKsg)
link doesn't work for me.
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Stop messing with your ear ;D
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In your video, you can see your reflection, doing something with your ear ;) at least suppose that's what he was referencing...
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Hi,
I have several major issues with my machine too.
Milling table:
Milling table has huge amount of slack at the right side slider. During milling, the table tilts from the other end.
This causes tool to enter to PCB in an angle, leaving milling result far from acceptable in right half of the milling table.
One of the four slider bearings is missing. Type KH-1630/P/PP
(Slider bearing.jpg)
Control Electronics:
One of the 1000uF electrolytic capacitors has a round hole on top of its casing and had leaked. The other had dent as well, but not through the casing.
It seems that control electronic PCBs have been stacked at the assembly line or in storage, and something heavy had been placed on top of the pile having top of the caps punctured by capacitor leads on the other cards.
(Damaged Capacitor.jpg)
Electronics/Software/Firmware:
PCB-module frequently looses the connection to prototyper, and X, Y & Z stepper motors starts driving unexpectedly.
It might have something to do with damaged elcaps, afterall they are for the stepper-drivers ...
Or with the fact that PCB-module tries to open the FTDI COM-port with non-standard baud-rate..
Or stack overflow on firmware..
Or something else..
Prototyper or the software also "forgets" the coordinates in some point of the milling process.
I don't know all the correct terms to explain this more clearly, so I attached some images.
(You'll get my point if you think about two identical vector images misaligned overlapping)
(Issue2 - PAIR1_offset ok.jpg & Issue2 - PAIR1_offset 072mm.jpg)
Usually the Prototyper tries to drive Y-table and milling head against the physical limits.
It doesn't react to the lid safety switch or anything, only turning off the power stops it.
Mine also stops responding, just like in the video you posted.
Micromerter:
Milling depth doesn't hold its adjusted position. Micrometer doesn't have any locking mechanism: after few minutes of milling, the micrometer position has changed.
(It seems that my machine has the spindle fault too.)
I suggested to the manufacturer that I could install the missing bearing and change the capacitors, but then we agreed I send the machine back for inspection.
It's a bit of a shame, because shipping costs shit load of €€€€€ and time.
Not bad :)
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I also did some research from data log between PCB-module and Prototyper and made an alarming observation:
It seems that the machine firmware itself doesn't care about the cover safety-switch state, but the PCB-module polls for the switch state and halts any movement when cover is opened. :|
I cannot say for 100% sure if this is accurate, but it sure looks like it from what I have understood from the datalog.
But if this is true, the safety switch doesn't serve much purpose in this machine...
There also should be a manual emergency stop switch.. I'm not sure the Prototyper adds up to the EU safety regulations for this kind of machines without proper emergency stop.
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I thing that you both should return your machines ASAP. You got broken product. There is law saying that they simply didn't honor their part of the contract. After reading this thread and 30 mins on google this seems to be big pile of junk. Return it when you can.
Another happy exuser here:
http://colinbususer.blogspot.com/ (http://colinbususer.blogspot.com/)
From googled information it seems that Elektor is/was selling those machines under its own branding, and they don't have good reviews as well. And they actually have very funny demo video. This occurred around 6:30. See the table damage at the end of the video?
Elektor Profiler - CNC milling machine from a kit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i9zDB6IiBM#)
Missing bearing on the rail? Blown PCB track on the first use? Micrometer adjustment that anyone who had one in their hands would tell you won't work because they are too lose? Bent lead screws? No ballscrews? NO ESTOP? This seems to be bad design and even worse execution. Summary is: cheap parts and horrible quality out of the box and support after that. I would return this and spend my money somewhere else.
They charge huge amount of money and it seems that cheap $1000 Chinese eBay machine might be better. You didn't get anything better in the parts compared to "china crap" and you definitely have no quality or support for your money.
Consult guys on CNCzone (preferably using search). They already recommended good machines for PCB multiple times.
Really. It is easier to find good review about Chinese eBay machines than this "we have 20 years of experience" Colinbus. That is actually very bad thing.
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In your video, you can see your reflection, doing something with your ear ;) at least suppose that's what he was referencing...
Well can you imagine wanting something for 2 years, neglecting more important stuff to get it, finally buy it to yourself as birthday present, proudly try it out on your birthday instead spending quality time with family and then realize maybe you got a lemon
Very interesting and what a disappointing outcome. The machine is poorly built and not fit for purpose. Tell the company that you have evaluated the machine and it has failed its acceptance test. I would demand a full refund to your full invoice value and ask them to pick the machine up from your premises.
Please keep this post updated with your progress. A good company will refund you without argument.
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It is not the first time that Elektor promotes rubbish. Until recently they sold the infamous crap T-962 reflow oven. The same crap you get on eBay, only that Elektor charged a 5x markup for the privilege of having an Elektor badge on it. They just replaced that oven with a mystery reflow oven from a Belgium company, designed by Dutch and German industrial designers (yeah, sure, pull the other ...) and build in Hungarian or so. This time they label the oven "professional".
I contacted the manufacturer today. The person that speaks my native language is currently away for today
What a coincidence ...
But allready the sales manager was sorry and said they will do everything to repair the machine.
What is there to repair? These are design faults no repair in the world can fix. Ask for your money back.
Talk is cheap. If the machine is the crap it looks like it is then Colinbus has had a lot of opportunity to hon their talk. They should now be well trained to tell customers what customers want to hear. Judge them by what they do, not what they talk. It doesn't matter if the chap on the phone sounds like the nicest guy in the the world. He can afford it, he has your money.
I can say Collinbus is a great team! :)
You think so? Judge them by their product and what they do. Does a great team produce such a product? Does a great team ship such a product? Would a great team feel the need to set up a second company (Colinbus) instead of dealing under their own name Franklin Industries NV if they trust their own product?
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I will ask them today to replace it with a new version that they are showing on the site, maybe they learned from their mistakes on the first machine.
Don't give them a second chance, from the videos and blogs that I have seen they produce expensive junk. They can't have even tested their machines before they were sent out. How did they not notice a missing bearing on one of the machines ?. Why did your machine 'burn out' when it was first switched on ?
For the money that you paid, you should expect a good quality machine. The cost of building the colinbus is nowhere near what they are charging. They must have a huge profit margin, it wouldn't surprise me if these were manufactured in China and drop shipped to their customers. Get your money back!
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Call them again and pretend you are a customer interested in buying some machines
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Regarding elu105 machine i have asked about your machine and it seems you never called them. Please contact them ASAP and they will resolve your problem immediately.
Actually I have called them about 3 times about the the exact issues on the machine :D
But I'll call them again if they could send me the parts too.
Thanks for the info!
Btw. I would ask for tracking code, theres always the risk you might get "Oh the parts seem to got lost during transportation" :)
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Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Some companies became quite good at replacing crappy parts with identical copies expecting the client would go away after couple rounds.
As the others said. This is the same tactic that junk selling car dealers employ. They have your money. They will talk to you and promise parts/fix/gold mountains until it is too late to get your money back and then all nice talk and support will come to a sudden halt.
As far as the UPS shipping notification goes... It is actually possible to prepare label on UPS website and UPS will send the notification. Then after some time you can cancel that unused label and get your money back for it. The client thinks package is on its way. Something like that happened to my friend until he called UPS and they did a little investigation after the seller was blaming UPS for 3-4 weeks...
From my diy CNC designing/building experience I can't imagine even start up company can order to build machines that have such flaws. Where is their prototype? Did it ever left the cad/computer/someone's head? Any testing? This is ridiculous to release such junk these days with all the prototyping possibilities!
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Actually, you have every right to open the machine covers for diagnosing a fault.
This is an industrial machine, and it's expected to require maintenance or repair someday.
No manufacturer would have a right to deny their responsibility in this case.
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All waranties have a clausule "if xy was serviced by unauthorized person warranty is void". Try to open a device from any other manufacturer and see will they accept any warranty claims ;)
By the way i dissected my machine for parts replacement (ups will be here in 2 days) and the spindle motor is:
629814-4
T024825 CCW15
It has a logo of letter "m" in circle
I only know what is CCW, google does not find anything about the motor.
In this case it has nothing to do with warranty, it's manufacturers responsibility.
I have opened a warranty device before.
It was an ERSA BGA rework station about 7 years ago, it was sold us with obsolete/beta firmware which couldn't be updated through datacable.
I had to desolder the flash on the mainboard, re-program the chip and then solder it back.
Didn't affect warranty, I asked about it when Ersa sales-person was visiting us for new wavesolder machine. :)
Ok, off-topic.. back to business..
When the new parts arrive, could you post the pictures?
I'm keen to see what kind of replacement they sent.
Btw. Did they tell if they had any idea why the machine stops suddenly, or starts driving steppers unexpectedly?
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Well i know its company dependent but mostly they will void the warranty.
I will post pictures when i get the parts. The problem of machine loosing connection and not responding to z axis microswitch is in the software. They corrected these problems and version 029 will be posted in a day or two
EDIT: I came to work at 6 AM and checked the UPS tracking number, and wtf the parts are allready here ;D
That's fast! Have you started installing the parts yet?
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I recieved parts in afternoon. I will mount them this weekend when i move back in my lab. My wife forbidden any further dissasembly / assembly on the kitchen table. Also i ordered some lithium grease to properly lubricate all parts of engraving head
Good news that you received the parts, hope all goes well. Just be careful with the grease, what you don't want is the grease mixed with the FR-4 dust to form an abrasive paste. I would check with a 'specialist' before deciding which lubricant to use, I would have thought that teflon or silicone would be better (non tacky).
Edit: I am told that fluoropolymer dry film lubricant is the stuff to use
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Hello everybody,
So, hacklordsniper, is the machine still working correctly? Have you been using it?
I am oriented in buying the PCB BOX (or Elektor PCB Prototyper, I believe it's the same), but the discussion here has worried me a bit.
Did you encounter any other problems?
Have a nice day,
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How are the results when it comes to making a PCB? Can you post any pictures of boards made by the machine after it has been adjusted and tuned up?
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Hello everybody,
So, hacklordsniper, is the machine still working correctly? Have you been using it?
I am oriented in buying the PCB BOX (or Elektor PCB Prototyper, I believe it's the same), but the discussion here has worried me a bit.
Did you encounter any other problems?
Have a nice day,
Hello to you to!
The PCBBOX and ELEKTOR are the same thing except the Elektor gets a provision for sold units and the software is developed by Elektor. I don't recommend buying the Elektor version because Collinbus solved any software bug i found in 24 hours. Getting support from Elektor is equal to getting support from nobody.
I encountered many problems with the machine requiring me to disassemble/assemble it probably 25 times, however this was a positive experience for me because now i know the machine until the most deep parts of its soul. The machine as good as it is and for the price you cant buy any other. If you will choose some other "maybe" more reliable manufacturer expect to pay 3-10 times more!
However Collinbus team was with me all the time, supplied all the parts and any possible consulting. From certain point of view i was still an "early adopter". Many of the work on the machine i did was simply because i adopted the machine to my needs.
The only part of the machine that sucks is a DC spindle motor with brushes, expect it not to last long. However replacements are easily available and cheap and upgrade to brushless should not be hard either.
So to say it short PCB box is a almost mature product backed up by great enthusiastic creative team of Collinbus. I can say the machine is worth every cent you will pay for it or spend later on it.
Its worth alot to have people which will help you all the time and give full support in after sales. When i spoke with LPKF i felt like i need to get on my knees and beg them to think about selling me their CNC and surely i don't want to think what will they do in after sales support then.
Fell free to ask anything that could help you.
About the software.
The software for PCB Box and PCB Prototyper seems to the same: "PCB Module"
I just received my machine from repair, but I haven't had opportunity to test the machine yet.
At least the missing bearing was now installed, but not the milling table which was damaged when the machine suddenly went wild and milled a small hole in it :)
It's just a small nick on the table and replacing table was not absolutely necessary, but anyway.. ???
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Micrometer didn't have any locking mechanism at the time it happened, I just got the machine back from the repair and now it has the torx screw for locking the micrometer.
It's not a problem but I was just surprised to see they didn't replace the table.
Actually the machine did go wild occasionally. As I told before, it sometimes started turning X,Y&Z motors randomly and destroyed many tools. I understood this was because the bug in software, I hope the newest version has this issue fixed.
The thumb-screw instead of torx is a good idea!
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Hi hacklordsniper,
I am "nick7", I am new on blog, I was searching on goggle for PCBBOX discussions forum and I found EEVblog :), I want to thank you that you show to us your experience with PCBBOX (http://www.colinbus.com/en/pcbbox.html (http://www.colinbus.com/en/pcbbox.html)).
I am interested about this machine but for me 4000EUR are not so few money, and I don't want to risk to much buying something which can give you some head troubles ... you understand me.
I have contact you because you can tell me if the machine is suitable or not, to create an accurate PCB (e.g. 0.1mm pads / 0.1mm distance between pads ... ).
Please tell me what should I do. To make the effort and to buy it or to continuous to dream about this machine.
Thank you in advance,
if you can show to me a movie with the machine creating a PCB with a good resolution trace, for e.g 0.1mm, I will appreciate this very much.
Thank you very much,
:) keep in touch
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Hi hacklordsniper,
Same questions as nick7 did, but its now 2012 :D
It is still working as it should?
There is a new version i saw at the website 60.000rpm and automatic tool changing.
Is it worth it to buy it to make proffesional prints?
btw your a funny guy, i have read this topic with pleasure.
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sniper , you sir are a legend .
Thanks for speaking out your rant after a few months on what seems like a madly expensive but built cheaply by a scam company made out of not more than mad monkeys .
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It's quite a trip from the start of the thread to where we end up with now. Certainly very sad to see the initial excitement turn to utter disappointment.
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Thank you for the stunning conclusion. I was tempted by the PCB BOX, and it is the top Google search hit for "pcb prototyper".
Has anyone found a machine that is designed well, priced decently, and mills PCB boards?
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Actualy yes, but did not bough it yet. Some friends had good experience with it.
But i can cut only pcb's plastics and aluminum.
I found a good one for metal too but more expensive but much more cheaper then this prototyper.
The motor should be replaced and steppers to servo's, then it would be the perfect stable machine.
It has to come out of china from a country mate who is living there, and he arrange all.
I post link later..
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they all stink ... i had a superduper LPKF95S with all the gizmos ( multipress , plating installation , the whole shebang.. ) NEVER made a working board with it. NEVER !
Machine locks up , machine crashes , software glitches, communication failures , machine runs into its own toolhandler and bends the snot out of it.
Sure it works , if your boards are 2 inch x 2 inch and you only do contour engraving , and you use their material ( with the double peel-off copper ) and you only do engraving with swuare tipped bits.
as soon as you start playing with depth control to get finer lines ( like 6 mil and 4 mil ) all bets are off...
and as or 'rubout ' .... forget that one totally.
As for a multilayer ... you are going to spend 2 days engraving ( provided nothing screws up ) half a day plating and half a day plus a full night in the oven.. by the time you are done 3 full days have passed. i can get 4 layer boards professionally made , around the corner ( there are at least 4 PCB fabs in a 5 mile radius from where i am : APCT , Sierra , Hunter , Gorilla ) in 8 hours .... since these fabs run 24/7 i send of my gerber in the afternoon , go home , have a barbeque , enjoy the pool , watch some tv , sleep , have breakfast and when i walk in around 9aM my boards are waiting for me ... ZERO downtime , zero effort.
PCB engravers are garbage.
If you are after cheap : with all the chinese boardhouses you can get hundreds of projects run over there for the cost of the bare machine alone ...
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Yes maschines are always crap but handy :)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panther-210-CNC-Router-PCB-Engraving-mill-milling-Machine-/261006165590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc52e0656 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panther-210-CNC-Router-PCB-Engraving-mill-milling-Machine-/261006165590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc52e0656)
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Its a real shame people get ripped off for 4000 euro!
Maybe we could start a poll: Do you know somebody who actually uses a PCB engraving machine succesfully? I have to answer 'no' to that question. OTOH FeCl, etch resistant ink pens and photoresist board have served me well for over 25 years. Besides having boards made has become very cheap. I always order from Eurocircuits. Having a board made by them costs at least € 110. For small PCBs I let them make a panel so instead of 2 (or 3) PCBs I get 10 to 30 PCBs for the same price!
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I make simple PCB's with my taig, cost me $2k usd with controller from deepgrove1
everything is manual, its a regular cnc mini-mill not specifically designed for pcb's. I use diptrace to create the gerber's then use cambam to the pcb isolate and produce gcode, I then use linuxcnc to control the gecko driver and run the mill.
I havent tried anything incredibly tight, maybe I'll try just for fun sometime this week. I basically just adjust the machine's z till a piece of paper between the bit and pcb is just touching. Then run the gcode, press stop, lower 0.1mm, run gcode, etc etc till I get the depth I want. Usually just takes two or three adjusts, better to go slow though then too deep, lol cant put copper back on the board if I go too deep off the hop hehe.
It doesnt come with any limit switch's but Ive ordered some switch's and am going to remedy that.
The machine itself is great, ive done some simple sheet metal jobs with it to make some custom enclosures and a few pcb's. Its very capable and well built. No software at all is included, thats upto you.
Chris Lee
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These Taig machines look like they can get the job done! They are exactly like the mills you find in many metal workshops. I'd try and add some absolute encoders to the machine though. This way you can always tell where its at so missings steps are not a problem.
It would be nice if you can post some pictures of your results.
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I've recently ordered a PCBBOX thinking it would be a great deal.
I've never opened the box, as long as the machine arrived 2 months later than the expected delivery date. They fooled me every week after the delivery date, with new excuses.
One month after the expected delivery date they refused a full refund.
Don't know the machine, but really bad guys managing!
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Wow, initially, this thread looked like it was going to be a little bit positive, now though i am very sad after reading :(
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