Cordless power tools and predatory manufacturers

[MarkMLl]

Author should be a total idiot to write something this lame. Complaining there is only a single battery form factor and you don't need to chase for a slightly different battery for each tool  .

That was hardly the point. Zhe was working on the rather cynical assumption that Ryobi will presently abandon the current battery form factor, but comments here suggest that was unduly pessimistic.

I suppose that one way of looking at it is that the first generation of battery power tools- as well as current tools that are manufactured with price being the paramount concern- did not have the luxury of power monitoring and conversion electronics in the tool, cell pack and charger: packs were basically just a wad of cells with a thermal fuse. However over the last 20 years or so the capabilities of affordable electronics have increased enormously, making it easier for designers to stick to a common pack design even if the cell voltage and charging regime change significantly due to advances in chemistry.

MarkMLl

[wraper]

That was hardly the point. Zhe was working on the rather cynical assumption that Ryobi will presently abandon the current battery form factor, but comments here suggest that was unduly pessimistic.

Regardless if they would abandon it or not, complaining about a single form factor is really lame. If the company tends to use multiple incompatible types of battery, chance that some of them will be abandoned is much higher. Not to say if there is only one type used for everything, it's much easier to get a 3rd party replacement rather than some obscure battery used only in a particular tool.
My impression of that article - uninformed rant with arguments pulled out out of one's ass.

[IanB]

Ryobi does in fact have different battery form factors for different use cases, but this is not a case of abandoning one for another. Rather, it is for flexibility.

There is a "little" 6 V form factor for tiny tools, a medium 18 V form factor for the majority of power tools, and I think a "big" 40 V form factor for things like leaf blowers.

[Monkeh]

Author should be a total idiot to write something this lame. Complaining there is only a single battery form factor and you don't need to chase for a slightly different battery for each tool  .

That was hardly the point. Zhe was working on the rather cynical assumption that Ryobi will presently abandon the current battery form factor, but comments here suggest that was unduly pessimistic.

More like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

[MarkMLl]

More like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

Right. Well I did start off by asking for opinions and advice, so is the rest of the community happy with that endorsement of Ryobi?

MarkMLl

[totalnoob]

More like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

Right. Well I did start off by asking for opinions and advice, so is the rest of the community happy with that endorsement of Ryobi?

MarkMLl

It depends.  If you use your tools professionally or heavy hobbiest use, then I would recommend one of the name brands. I own several tools and batteries from the old Sears Craftsman C3 19.2V line which are re-badged Ryobi One Battery line tools (BUT their batteries and tools are not cross compatible, the stub that goes into the tool and the electrical connections are different, but they are essentially the same tools and batteries as the Ryobi).  They will do the job, the drills are powerful enough for most of my needs, I mainly use and literally abuse the recip saw for pruning duties and it has held up quite well, happy with the performance of the trimsaw I used it pretty heavily when I built several projects where I needed to cut sheets of plywood and building my workshop, but I was disappointed with the 7-1/4" circular saw, just a bit underpowered and will drain a battery quickly. So based on my experience, I would say that Ryobi's power tools are good for DIY'ers up to heavy DIY'ers. 

Of course, it should be said, that just because Ryobi has kept their battery design the same for the last 20 or so years, does not mean that they will not change it in the next few years.  Of course, I would anticipate they would make an adapter for older tools to use whatever new batteries they come out with, but that's not a guarantee, either.  My defense of Ryobi was only to point out that the author was off base when stating that they could not use new batteries with old tools, which was wrong, unless the author had not bought Ryobi tools since they introduced the One Battery lineup, which must have been a very long time ago.

Edit to add:  I have two of the C3 drills, one normal 1/2" and one 1/2" hammerdrill.  If you are looking for tools to use for home maintenance duties, I highly recommend getting a hammerdrill in lieu of a normal drill, I never thought a cordless hammerdrill would be useful, it has been used much more than I thought and works much better than I thought.  If this will strictly be used for screwing together woodworking type projects or drilling electronics enclosures, etc. types of projects, then a normal drill will suffice.

[Monkeh]

More like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

Right. Well I did start off by asking for opinions and advice, so is the rest of the community happy with that endorsement of Ryobi?

MarkMLl

I wouldn't say I endorse them - my experience has been that they're mediocre tools to fit a budget. But to suggest they're planning to pull the rug out by changing battery design when they've made an overt point of not doing precisely that while everyone else does is daft.

[langwadt]

More like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

Right. Well I did start off by asking for opinions and advice, so is the rest of the community happy with that endorsement of Ryobi?

MarkMLl

I wouldn't say I endorse them - my experience has been that they're mediocre tools to fit a budget. But to suggest they're planning to pull the rug out by changing battery design when they've made an overt point of not doing precisely that while everyone else does is daft.

right now Bosch is running ads that their 18V batteries is compatible back to 2007

[Monkeh]

More like outright ignorant. They've made a point of maintaining battery compatibility for decades. It's one of their selling points.

Right. Well I did start off by asking for opinions and advice, so is the rest of the community happy with that endorsement of Ryobi?

MarkMLl

I wouldn't say I endorse them - my experience has been that they're mediocre tools to fit a budget. But to suggest they're planning to pull the rug out by changing battery design when they've made an overt point of not doing precisely that while everyone else does is daft.

right now Bosch is running ads that their 18V batteries is compatible back to 2007

After they decided to break compatibility with their last generation of tools. And throw away the 24V line. The Ryobi difference is that they did not discard previous NiCd and NiMH tools when they switched to Li-ion packs.

Still, that's not a terrible record.

[dinth]

Im an amateur DIY, but a while ago i have invested in wireless tools from Makita and i dont regret it at all. The tools are great, including some gardening tools like grass trimmers and lawn mowers, i can use them outside regardless of the weather, same batteries for every tool. Before that i've been always using cheap, usually wired tools but there was always some hassle, cheap drills breaking between every single job, etc. At the end of the day i believe i not only saved a lot of hassle and effort by going wireless reputable brand, but also money constantly replacing my drills because a clutch or motor broke.
I only managed to break one Makita drill ever since, but before it broke i used it to drill a 30cm wide hole in a double brick wall.

[CatalinaWOW]

I have owned cordless tools for more than 25 years.  The complaints about batteries were valid for the NiCd and NiMH batteries.  But since the switch to lithium chemistry's more than a decade ago I have not had a single battery failure.  My first lithium batteries are still chugging along, and more recent ones have enough capacity to make high power tools like circular saws practical.

[eugene]

It's true that manufacturer branded batteries are overpriced, but generic replacements are available at much lower prices, often with much more capacity than the ones sold by the manufacturer. Check ebay.

[madires]

Be careful with cheap replacements! In most cases they come with cheap cells.

[james_s]

Here in Japan, Hitachi tools are now sold under the name Hikoki, they are the exact same Hitachi tools, just with a different brand name on them. They even still have a factory in Japan too.

They have those here too, until somebody told me I assumed Hikoki was one of those Chinese knockoff brands meant to sound Japanese.

[eugene]

Be careful with cheap replacements! In most cases they come with cheap cells.

Three years ago I bought two 8Ah batteries for 1/3rd the price of the 3Ah batteries sold by Dewalt. They continue to work fine and obviously hold a charge much longer than the originals. If a cell fails, I can buy replacement (cells) for 1/5th the price of new 3Ah battery packs from Dewalt. That's my actual experience, not just a 'wise' observation. What's your experience?

I don't see it as predatory that tool companies sell tools at cost and make money on batteries. When Kodak sold cameras at cost and made money on film, people called them genius. When shaver companies sold handles for safety blades below cost but made money on blades, people saw it as SOP.

If tool companies want to sell me a stable of cordless tools at cost, I'll take it, then buy generic batteries that are so cheap they're nearly disposable. Anyone that doesn't feel good about those batteries can buy manufacturer branded. That's what free market capitalism is all about. Now, I'm only guessing, but I'll make the bet that the people that worry about the brand of battery are more often home owners that use their power drill twice a year to put up curtain rods. Meanwhile, the people using the things all day, every day are happy using cheap generic batteries that hold two or three times the charge of the ones that came with the tools.

[madires]

In my family tools are heavily used, DIY up to professional. In most cases cheap replacement battery packs didn't last long or couldn't provide sufficient current. Packs with a reasonable price/performance ratio using high quality cells are usually fine. Same for laptop battery packs.

[MarkMLl]

I don't see it as predatory that tool companies sell tools at cost and make money on batteries. When Kodak sold cameras at cost and made money on film, people called them genius. When shaver companies sold handles for safety blades below cost but made money on blades, people saw it as SOP.

Polaroid would have been a far better example, but by and large camera and razor manufacturers didn't lock out competitors using DRM and DMCA-style litigation.

There always has been a progression: somebody works out how to do something and patents it, competitors patent their own improvements, patents expire and the technology becomes generic.

Having a situation where a manufacturer can lock out competition indefinitely is a new phenomenon, brought about by semiconductors cheap enough to be embedded in media and accessories. And of course one of the first applications for that sort of thing was battery packs.

I think the consensus of this thread is that by and large "compatible" batteries are OK. However there are definitely rogue battery (and cell) manufacturers who claim capacities which are quite frankly impossible using current technology, which leads me to suspect that as well as being economical with the truth they might also be economical with their protection circuitry.

MarkMLl

[SilverSolder]

I've just seen today a third party battery pack by a somewhat reputable chinese brand (maybe Nitecore) that was:
Type C charging, had feedback LED.
All these batteries are basically some 18650s (~2 dollar each) and some protection circuits in a molded case. I don't think customers should handle bare 18650s since they are super dangerous.
I think you are right, probably the best chance is the EU doing something.

I'd comment here that untutored consumers are also likely to fall for claims that 18650 batteries can store outlandish amounts of energy (I've seen some on AliExpress which were supposedly 5800 mAh) while in practice the maximum allowed by normal LiIon chemistry is around 2800.

And of course there's constant exposes by people like BigClive of consumer devices which are sold with no internal protection and what can charitably be described as "unmatched" wall-wart chargers.

MarkMLl

Those devices should not be allowed on the European market. I think the red tape / flexibility is placed somewhat wrong in case of consumer devices in the EU, but that's another discussion.

The EU simply needs a "Trading Standards" web site, where consumers can report abuses.  Also the "Trading Standards" office could scan the major online vendors (eBay, Amazon) and request take-downs of BS products.   After a while, standards would improve...   and prices would go up!

[SilverSolder]

I strongly prefer corded power tools (and gasoline garden tools) for all the reasons already discussed - these things will work for decades if you take care of them a little bit.  There's not much you can do to make a Lithium Ion battery last long, other than not charging or discharging them fully...  which is inconvenient as the chargers and tools are not designed for this.

I have a pile of old Ryobi 9.6V drills - four or five of them, sourced from various eBay bargains, used and new.   The reason is so I can have multiple tools on the go at the same time...  two or three different drill sizes, a screwdriver bit, a countersinking bit, etc. - without having to keep changing them...  just grab a different drill.   I also use them when working on my car, to unscrew nuts and bolts - I can have several different socket sizes on the go at the same time.  (No, the drills are not strong enough to undo or tighten large bolts and nuts.  You do that part by hand.  But they are great for (un)screwing nuts and bolts once loosened, including wheel nuts.)

Batteries...  -  These used NiCd battery packs originally, I have rebuilt the packs with upgraded NiMh cells several times.  The cells usually cost more than I paid for the drills...    I haven't figured out a way to make them last.   If you don't use them, they eventually self discharge and go bad.

Probably to make tool batteries last would require a battery maintainer that kept them at e.g. 40% charge and exercised the batteries every so often (every few months).  That's actually a product idea that might be quite successful, given the price of batteries!  It would need "bays" for e.g. 4 or 6 batteries...

[madires]

Yep, NiCd/NiMH cells should be kept fully charged when not used regularly (recharge every few months). And for Li-Ion the optimal charge for long term storage is about 50%.

[SilverSolder]

Yep, NiCd/NiMH cells should be kept fully charged when not used regularly (recharge every few months). And for Li-Ion the optimal charge for long term storage is about 50%.

I have an older hybrid car, with a NiMH battery.  With a data logger connected long term, I noticed that the computer likes to keep the level of charge in the range 40% - 50% at all times...   That strategy seems to be good for longevity, the battery is still in good shape after 16 years and 200+ K miles.    The computer (battery management system) does other things to protect the battery too, like reduce current (both in and out) as the temperature either climbs or falls from around 25C.

I don't know whether a Li-Ion battery would be able to remain serviceable after being in use this long, even if mollycoddled the way this battery has been?  It seems to me that the Li-Ion chemistry is somewhat more fragile.

Either way, that is the kind of battery management that would make power tool batteries last a lot longer...   but it would mean having to recharge more often,  maybe much more often, to protect the cells.

Basically, a power tool battery is a compromise design,  torn between the opposing forces of convenience/usability versus a long service life.

[james_s]

I strongly prefer corded power tools (and gasoline garden tools) for all the reasons already discussed - these things will work for decades if you take care of them a little bit.  There's not much you can do to make a Lithium Ion battery last long, other than not charging or discharging them fully...  which is inconvenient as the chargers and tools are not designed for this.

I loathe cords, I gave away all of my corded power tools except for my circular saw and router years ago. A couple years ago I finally bought a Makita brushless electric cordless string trimmer which I quickly found was more powerful than the gas powered one it replaced, gave away the gas one and would never go back. Later I bought a Makita brushless leaf blower that uses the same batteries, it's more powerful and quieter than the corded one I had and I no longer have to drag a cord around on the roof. I got rid of my gas powered lawnmower too and replaced it with electric, the electric tools are so vastly superior in my mind I would never consider going back to gasoline unless *maybe* if I had a massive yard. The electric stuff is roughly on par in terms of performance, it's dramatically quieter, vibrates less and most importantly, I'm not constantly tinkering with stupid little carburetors and the messes created by ethanolized fuel.

I just haven't had much trouble with the batteries. I got about 10 years out of the original packs that came with my Bosch drill and I had them rebuilt about 6 years ago and they're still going strong. My Makita lithium packs are all still going strong, and the aftermarket Bosch lithium pack on my reciprocating saw is about 5 years old and is still fine. The lawnmower was originally lead acid but when those died I added a connector so I can plug in the same LiPo packs I use in my RC airplanes, most of those I bought in 2015 and they're all still holding up fine. The only gasoline I store anymore is for my generator, I no longer have any 2 stroke stuff aside from an outboard motor and I only fill that tank when I'm going to take the little boat out.

[SilverSolder]

I strongly prefer corded power tools (and gasoline garden tools) for all the reasons already discussed - these things will work for decades if you take care of them a little bit.  There's not much you can do to make a Lithium Ion battery last long, other than not charging or discharging them fully...  which is inconvenient as the chargers and tools are not designed for this.

I loathe cords, I gave away all of my corded power tools except for my circular saw and router years ago. A couple years ago I finally bought a Makita brushless electric cordless string trimmer which I quickly found was more powerful than the gas powered one it replaced, gave away the gas one and would never go back. Later I bought a Makita brushless leaf blower that uses the same batteries, it's more powerful and quieter than the corded one I had and I no longer have to drag a cord around on the roof. I got rid of my gas powered lawnmower too and replaced it with electric, the electric tools are so vastly superior in my mind I would never consider going back to gasoline unless *maybe* if I had a massive yard. The electric stuff is roughly on par in terms of performance, it's dramatically quieter, vibrates less and most importantly, I'm not constantly tinkering with stupid little carburetors and the messes created by ethanolized fuel.

I just haven't had much trouble with the batteries. I got about 10 years out of the original packs that came with my Bosch drill and I had them rebuilt about 6 years ago and they're still going strong. My Makita lithium packs are all still going strong, and the aftermarket Bosch lithium pack on my reciprocating saw is about 5 years old and is still fine. The lawnmower was originally lead acid but when those died I added a connector so I can plug in the same LiPo packs I use in my RC airplanes, most of those I bought in 2015 and they're all still holding up fine. The only gasoline I store anymore is for my generator, I no longer have any 2 stroke stuff aside from an outboard motor and I only fill that tank when I'm going to take the little boat out.

both battery and gasoline requires a little babysitting to get good life and performance.  Corded tools are very low maintenance and remain viable for decades.  All three technologies have pros and cons.

I love my five old Ryobi battery powered drills despite having to rebuild their battery packs every 5-8 years, because they are easy and flexible to use...  i couldn't have five corded drills on the go at the same time, it would be a spaghetti mayhem!  Overall, they are a time saver and do a great job.   If the going gets tough... I don't rush to Home Depot to buy a bigger cordless drill - instead, I take out my ancient corded one and finish the job using the local nuclear plant as the power source - hard to beat!

Gasoline engines are only unreliable if you forget to use fuel stabilizer.  If you remember to do that, carburetor issues pretty much disappear.  I have hmmm...  OMG...  seven small gas engines here...   and they all start reliably, even though some of them can be left a year since the last use.  The oldest one is an early 80's 5hp Briggs powered leaf blower - runs like a champ, starts on the first pull!  Of course it needed new parts when I bought it, as it had been neglected like most small engines...   

Fuel stabilizer:  I add it to the jerry can before filling it at the gas station, so I don't have to think about it any further.  It is a minimal investment in time and $ for having all your stuff start reliably and consistently, no matter how long you let them sit (within reason...  1 year is fine, from experience).   It literally takes only a few CC of stabilizer for a whole can.  It makes all the difference...

[james_s]

Fuel stabilizer is good stuff, I have wondered at times why they don't just include it in the gasoline to begin with, the cost is negligible. I find that even with stabilizer the ethanolized fuel goes bad within a few months. Engines vary widely on how well they tolerate stale gas too. The early 90s Tecumseh flathead on the gas mower I had would sit all winter and start up on whatever old nasty fuel was in it, though I often had to pull the banjo bolt that holds the float bowl on and clean it out. The Honda OHV engine on my pressure washer is a much better engine in most respects but it's very picky about fuel and won't even start on stale gas without a shot of starting fluid. For drills I have been tempted a few times to get a Hole Hawg for when I need to use a big hole saw or spade bit but otherwise the cordless drills meet my needs and I don't have to drag a cord around.

[jpanhalt]

@50+ posts, I don't feel like reading this whole thread.  Aviation gas (100LL) and marine gas do not have ethanol.  Marine gas  (90+ octane) is available and cheaper locally.  It is also lead free.  That is what I use in all of my smaller (<6 hp) and 2-cycle engines.  It may go bad with time, but not in a single year.  The only small engine I use ordinary premium gas in is a 25hp Kohler twin cylinder.  That is my rider mower and gets lots of use.  Ethanol-containing regular gas ruined the carburetor of a name-brand, 5 HP mower in less than a year.