Cordless power tools and predatory manufacturers

[MarkMLl]

I needed to drill a few holes in some garden woodwork earlier, so went hunting for a working cordless drill and a usable battery pack. Having eventually found a functional charger in the workshop, I had plenty of time for a forum search and to dig out this essay:

https://hackaday.com/2017/08/07/the-trouble-with-cordless-power-tools/

The predatory policies of manufacturers who sell a product at a loss but extort profit from the cost of consumables and maintenance is so regularly discussed these days that I think examples are spurious.

Allowing for the gradual adoption of repairability and product-lifetime guarantees in- in particular- the EU, do any manufacturers of cordless tools etc. stand out either in a good or (spectacularly) bad way?

For example, is the Hackaday writer's comment on Ryobi ("...all have the same battery. The idea presumably being that after five years you won’t simply have to replace your drill due to a dead battery, you’ll have to replace all your tools...") fair, and is there any manufacturer who has undertaken to keep their battery design stable for future products? **

MarkMLl

** Preferably without mandating five-sided tooling.

[totalnoob]

I do agree with the author's basic premise. If you only use power tools occasionally, then the corded tools are the way to go, even with the hassle of needing to work around a cord and potentially (and very likely) and extension cord. The only downside, at least for drills, is that they don't usually have clutches. 

I don't see where the author makes that quote about Ryobi power tools.  I don't think it's a fair statement, either, and I am NO Ryobi fan boy.  I do buy and use battery power tools and yes I  can sympathize with the sentiment of high replacement battery costs. It'd be nice to have a single battery standard so that all power tools used the same battery so you're not locked into one manufacturer's battery system and battery costs would come way down.

Here're my observations from about the mid-90's on (when I bought my first battery powered tool): The major manufacturers do tend to keep their battery designs stable for a long time. While I cannot speak specifically to the battery designs for all of the major tool manufacturers, having owned and kept an eye on DeWalt tools, they kept their Nicad/NIMH battery designs for at least 10 - 15 years and were able to vary the sizes but still keep the interface (i.e. how it mates up both power and attachment wise to the tools) the same so that the various battery voltages were compatible with each other (I know the 9.6V through 14.4V were, but I may be mistaken about the 18V batteries, they may not have been compatible with the lower voltage tools). DeWalt only seemed to change to a new design when they switched over to the 20V LiON batteries, probably having more to do with safety so that owners did not try to charge new LiON batteries in old Nicad/NIMH chargers. I did not read all of the comments on that piece, but one person did comment that Ryobi's 18V batteries have been the same "for at least 15 years" and I believe it is more like 20 + years. They kept their battery design the same even when switching from Nicad/NIMH to LiON, so you could use a new LiON pack in the first tools released for that lineup.  What's more is that, with some patience, Ryobi's batteries can be bought at very reasonable prices (on a per pack basis) when they go on sale. So if you do buy into the Ryobi system, so far, they have made it fairly easy to stay with them in the long run. That's not to say that Ryobi is in the same class as DeWalt or Milwaukee or any of the other high end power tools, they are not, but they are perfectly adequate, IMHO, for most DIY'ers that use tools frequently enough to maintain battery powered tools, but are not day-in and day-out users. I have seen DeWalt and Milwaukee get more aggressive in replacement battery prices more recently (past couple of Black Friday's), but I have not noticed those deals happening quite as often as the Ryobi deals (mostly once a year around Black Friday, although perhaps around Father's Day, too). Until then, I would have said that it almost seemed like the bigger brands were more likely to be thrown out once enough of the batteries wore out that it made it more appealing to buy an entire multi-tool kit with batteries than to buy just the replacement batteries (on sale sometimes those multiple power tool kits are not much more than just buying a couple of replacement batteries when the batteries are not on sale).

Where I have noticed a lack of stability in battery designs is outdoor power equipment.  Even the big name brand manufacturers have not hit on a long term battery design that they will maintain for many years. The exception here, again, is with Ryobi which uses the same batteries as their power tools. But those brands known for being top outdoor power equipment brands (like Echo and Stihl, etc.) seem to change their battery designs too often, for my taste. Not to mention the "Johnny come lately's" like EGO and others which also look to have changed their battery pack designs a couple of times despite only being on the market for a few years.

[MarkMLl]

I don't see where the author makes that quote about Ryobi power tools.

Comment about "lime-green power tools" in the para above a photo labelled "Ryobi TV" :-)

Apart from that, thanks for the comprehensive comments.

MarkMLl

[david77]

That's exactly my problem with cordless power tools, I don't use most of the stuff enough to keep the batteries alive. The only exception is the cordless drill. I've got 4 by now. Three of them are >20 years old Makitas that still use NiCd/NiMH packs and one newer more powerful Fein drill I bought last year. One of the Makitas permanently lives in the electronics lab, the other two live in the shed/wood/metall working shop. I'm still undecided where the newbie will find its home.

The old Makita 12V NiMH packs are now cheaply available from China. NiMH is a mature and reasonably safe chemistry that even the Chinese can't screw up to badly. On the other hand I'm still not 100% comfortable with filling the house with LiIon, I nearly had one burn down the house some years ago.

All the other tools that I maybe only use 5 times a year like router, grinder and such are and will stay corded.

The battery situation is the same as printer ink and I had one inkjet printer. Never again. I will not pay those inflated prices.

[Bud]

For home use to an extent the problem can be mitigated by using inter-series/inter-brand battery adapters.

[IanB]

For example, is the Hackaday writer's comment on Ryobi ("...all have the same battery. The idea presumably being that after five years you won’t simply have to replace your drill due to a dead battery, you’ll have to replace all your tools...") fair, and is there any manufacturer who has undertaken to keep their battery design stable for future products? **

A long time ago Ryobi made blue tools that used blue NiCad batteries. Now, as everyone knows, Ryobi makes green tools that use green lithium ion batteries. However, the blue and green tools and batteries are interchangeable. The older "blue" tools work fine with the newer lithium batteries, and there are universal chargers that can charge both NiCad and lithium ion batteries.

So any suggestion of forced obsolescence by Ryobi is not justified by this example.

[MarkMLl]

For home use to an extent the problem can be mitigated by using inter-series/inter-brand battery adapters.

Do you have any URLs etc. for the record?

MarkMLl

[mawyatt]

For example, is the Hackaday writer's comment on Ryobi ("...all have the same battery. The idea presumably being that after five years you won’t simply have to replace your drill due to a dead battery, you’ll have to replace all your tools...") fair, and is there any manufacturer who has undertaken to keep their battery design stable for future products? **

A long time ago Ryobi made blue tools that used blue NiCad batteries. Now, as everyone knows, Ryobi makes green tools that use green lithium ion batteries. However, the blue and green tools and batteries are interchangeable. The older "blue" tools work fine with the newer lithium batteries, and there are universal chargers that can charge both NiCad and lithium ion batteries.

So any suggestion of forced obsolescence by Ryobi is not justified by this example.

We just picked up a Ryobi table saw to use and help with bathroom(s) remodeling, and later for cutting Al extrusions for electronics test boxes. After usual research this seemed the best value and was local at Home Depot. First impression the packaging was very well done and thought out!! Second impression saw performs well. Now your comment about Ryobi and the battery/charger backward compatibility has completed our third impression

Best,

[Bud]

For home use to an extent the problem can be mitigated by using inter-series/inter-brand battery adapters.

Do you have any URLs etc. for the record?

MarkMLl

They are on Aliexpress.

[free_electron]

i have almost all ryobi tools (like 20 different machines). zero problems. all use the same battery. i got like 20 batteries. one died cause i left it out in the rain and it got wet inside. one resistor later and it was happy again.
The only complaint i have is about their lawn mowers. they are grossly underpowered . they use two hunking 40 volt packs. can't handle even  100 square meter lawn. both batteries overheat, machine constantly slows down and stalls. i spent 600 $ and got the most expensive dual blade machine. totally useless. it may work if you only want to cut 2mm at a time off the grass. i need to cut 5cm off the grass.

i returned it and now i have a corded simple black and decker. works like a champ. 199$ on sale. California is outlawing gas mowers.

the other tools i have are skill .(two electric drill/screwdrivers). in one the control board fried when the motor stalled.

It doesn't matter what brand you buy. they all come from the same factories.
https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/

The only two remaining independents are Makita and Hilti. All the rest is "soup" and they change owner whenever the CEO's change underpants.

[metrologist]

I thought this was going to be about the tools requiring an internet connection and active account topped up with funds in order for them to do any work for you.

Why should there be any distinction in how we license software vs. tools? Those tools are doing work for you and you should be required to pay for that service every time.

Same thing with spoons and forks, and clothes, etc...

[Bud]

The only two remaining independents are Makita and Hilti. All the rest is "soup" and they change owner whenever the CEO's change underpants.

...And i have a Hilti reciprocating saw which is literally a copy of the Makita one,  , or the other way around, just a different color.

[MarkMLl]

The only two remaining independents are Makita and Hilti. All the rest is "soup" and they change owner whenever the CEO's change underpants.

A former colleague swore by Metabo, who I think are still independent.

MarkMLl

[bdunham7]

A former colleague swore by Metabo, who I think are still independent.

There are two Metabos now, the original German tool manufacturer is now owned by KKR.  The former Hitachi Koki is now Metabo HPT, also owned by KKR.  I believe that they still function relatively independently for now, although I suspect KKR will want to optimize their investment.  Metabo (DE) tools have a very good reputation, the Hitachi tools were also good IMO and the Metabo HPT is probably on par with Milwaukee, DeWalt or Makita.  I only have one, a Hitachi compound miter saw and it is first rate.  They have a really nice assortment of cordless Metabo HPT tools at Lowes and I was considering ditching all my old Makita NiMH-based tools, but when I added up how much everything would cost including the myriad of different batteries required, I decided I could do without for now.

[tszaboo]

I've just seen today a third party battery pack by a somewhat reputable chinese brand (maybe Nitecore) that was:
Type C charging, had feedback LED.
All these batteries are basically some 18650s (~2 dollar each) and some protection circuits in a molded case. I don't think customers should handle bare 18650s since they are super dangerous.
I think you are right, probably the best chance is the EU doing something.

[langwadt]

I needed to drill a few holes in some garden woodwork earlier, so went hunting for a working cordless drill and a usable battery pack. Having eventually found a functional charger in the workshop, I had plenty of time for a forum search and to dig out this essay:

https://hackaday.com/2017/08/07/the-trouble-with-cordless-power-tools/

The predatory policies of manufacturers who sell a product at a loss but extort profit from the cost of consumables and maintenance is so regularly discussed these days that I think examples are spurious.

Allowing for the gradual adoption of repairability and product-lifetime guarantees in- in particular- the EU, do any manufacturers of cordless tools etc. stand out either in a good or (spectacularly) bad way?

For example, is the Hackaday writer's comment on Ryobi ("...all have the same battery. The idea presumably being that after five years you won’t simply have to replace your drill due to a dead battery, you’ll have to replace all your tools...") fair, and is there any manufacturer who has undertaken to keep their battery design stable for future products? **

MarkMLl

** Preferably without mandating five-sided tooling.

I think most manufacturers have and do keep their battery design stable, because that is what is what ties costumers
to that specific brand. Already having batteries and charger for brand A is a very good reason to again buy brand A if you need a new tool 

[free_electron]

I have heard that the "ridgid" brand of tools

Same owner as Ryobi. I have the ryobi oscillating tool. i can use Ridgid tool heads like the right angle drill head on the ryobi. The ryobi tool clearly states ont he package it is compatible with ridgid...

[free_electron]

their battery design

LOL. they have the packs made by a 3rd party. They may have designed the form factor to make sure it is theirs and theirs alone but the guts ? all soup...

[MarkMLl]

I have not done all that much research as to information about the subject but it is a matter of concern since
I have increasing numbers of such types of tools and it is frustrating to see the tactics of using incompatible
not serviceable expensive and limited life time battery packs as a means of limiting consumer choice and possibly
also product longevity / durability / maintainability.

It's curious that the more possessive a company is of its intellectual property the more it will justify that position by claiming it promotes "customer choice".

Historically all the most common consumer utilized primary and secondary batteries / cells have been fairly well standardized and were mostly interoperably usable in most devices e.g. AAA, AA, C, D, CR2, CR2032, typical form factors of automobile batteries, et. al.  And the lithium ion cells in many cases are relatively standardized in form factor / general characteristics.

OK, can anybody comment on how those actually came to be standardised? I note that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery says that the D Cell was first produced by The National Carbon Company, but I find it very difficult to imagine that these days a company- particularly an American company- would put something like that on the market without enforcing patent rights over its outline.

And I'd also suggest that standardisation of Micro-USB is very much a European thing, and together with attempts at standardising cylindrical power connectors has been resisted or flatly ignored by American companies such as Apple and HP.

MarkMLl

[MarkMLl]

I've just seen today a third party battery pack by a somewhat reputable chinese brand (maybe Nitecore) that was:
Type C charging, had feedback LED.
All these batteries are basically some 18650s (~2 dollar each) and some protection circuits in a molded case. I don't think customers should handle bare 18650s since they are super dangerous.
I think you are right, probably the best chance is the EU doing something.

I'd comment here that untutored consumers are also likely to fall for claims that 18650 batteries can store outlandish amounts of energy (I've seen some on AliExpress which were supposedly 5800 mAh) while in practice the maximum allowed by normal LiIon chemistry is around 2800.

And of course there's constant exposes by people like BigClive of consumer devices which are sold with no internal protection and what can charitably be described as "unmatched" wall-wart chargers.

MarkMLl

[tszaboo]

I've just seen today a third party battery pack by a somewhat reputable chinese brand (maybe Nitecore) that was:
Type C charging, had feedback LED.
All these batteries are basically some 18650s (~2 dollar each) and some protection circuits in a molded case. I don't think customers should handle bare 18650s since they are super dangerous.
I think you are right, probably the best chance is the EU doing something.

I'd comment here that untutored consumers are also likely to fall for claims that 18650 batteries can store outlandish amounts of energy (I've seen some on AliExpress which were supposedly 5800 mAh) while in practice the maximum allowed by normal LiIon chemistry is around 2800.

And of course there's constant exposes by people like BigClive of consumer devices which are sold with no internal protection and what can charitably be described as "unmatched" wall-wart chargers.

MarkMLl

Those devices should not be allowed on the European market. I think the red tape / flexibility is placed somewhat wrong in case of consumer devices in the EU, but that's another discussion.

[TERRA Operative]

There are two Metabos now, the original German tool manufacturer is now owned by KKR.  The former Hitachi Koki is now Metabo HPT, also owned by KKR.  I believe that they still function relatively independently for now, although I suspect KKR will want to optimize their investment.  Metabo (DE) tools have a very good reputation, the Hitachi tools were also good IMO and the Metabo HPT is probably on par with Milwaukee, DeWalt or Makita.  I only have one, a Hitachi compound miter saw and it is first rate.  They have a really nice assortment of cordless Metabo HPT tools at Lowes and I was considering ditching all my old Makita NiMH-based tools, but when I added up how much everything would cost including the myriad of different batteries required, I decided I could do without for now.

Here in Japan, Hitachi tools are now sold under the name Hikoki, they are the exact same Hitachi tools, just with a different brand name on them. They even still have a factory in Japan too.

[madires]

We have a bunch of old professional cordless drills from Panasonic, and the genuine NiMH battery packs are insanely expensive. Of course you can get cheap replacements - cheap in every sense. Just after a year or two some cells fail and you'll need a new pack. Therefore I rebuilt bad packs with quality NiMH cells in the past. With modern Li-Ion cells it doesn't make much sense to keep using NiMH cells, also economically. So the last time I replaced the NiMH cells with a few 30A 18650s, a BMS (oversize!) and a charger module. Works great so far.

[MadScientist]

I have einhell tools on the boat. Good reasonable prices. Huge range of tools take the same batteries. Batteries available from  third parties

I have old 14v Makita cordless at home unbreakable. I have bought third party NIMh , still going strong now after 14 years.

[wraper]

For example, is the Hackaday writer's comment on Ryobi ("...all have the same battery. The idea presumably being that after five years you won’t simply have to replace your drill due to a dead battery, you’ll have to replace all your tools...")

Author should be a total idiot to write something this lame. Complaining there is only a single battery form factor and you don't need to chase for a slightly different battery for each tool  .