Author Topic: Digital calipers — what to buy?  (Read 6210 times)

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2018, 03:26:43 am »
Cheers, man. I'm not trying to be confrontational.

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As far as your implication that I don't know how to use a measuring tool like a caliper as well as you do
I'm sorry that you have inferred something I did not intend to imply.

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Regardless, this is mostly academic, as calipers just aren't that accurate to begin with.
This is what I believe, too. WTF. It's like we agree. I think the 3 $10.00 calipers I own are all good enough in the right places to give precise measurements down to their inherently limited resolution of half a thou. (Plus or minus maybe 1 thou per inch of absolute offset, probably starting to get weird at maybe 2" and getting some play and repeatability issues when you open the jaws much over halfway, limiting the bearing surfaces).

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so you don't have to measure in exactly the same place twice. I guarantee you're not doing that with your calipers in most cases.
i agree! And yet you can hand me a steel rod <2" in diameter, and I'll tell you what it is within +- half a thou. Using only a $10.00 pair of calipers and nothing else to reference. And I'll lay down money. IOW, none of my calipers have a noticeable problem in this regard. If the jaws were slightly off parallel/flat, I imagine I would just fix it. It's just steel, and very thin pieces at that.

I believe the Mit will be more accurate beyond 3". For smaller measurements, I think my calipers couldn't get much better. It's possible I hit the lottery. Or maybe these things have gotten better since you formed your opinion.

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Maybe it would be faster or easier to use the Mitutoyo (incorrectly/sloppily) and get the right reading?
When I said this, believe me. I did not mean to imply you are doing it wrong. I was speculating that this is one way in which the Mitutoyo could be a superior tool, despite my own experience of cheap calipers being on the money (at least where 99% of most peoples' uses would matter. Not every day the average Joe needs 1 mil precision on 2+" thick stock of anything.) As in maybe they get a solid reading without as much attention or care.

I've never touched a Mitutoyo nor ever been a professional machinist. The closest I get is grinding things on the redneck lathe or the router table. Yes, it's possible to grind steel to less than 1 mil precision with a drill and a dremel. And a $10.00 caliper.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 09:01:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2018, 01:51:18 pm »
Thanks for the replies, everyone! So far, I’m leaning towards the Sylvac (for the giant digits, and being fairly locally made), but they are sold without thumbwheels, which are an accessory you can install after the fact — in theory. Nobody seems to actually sell the thumbwheels...  >:(

As for Mitutoyo, upon closer inspection, almost all of the models they sell here in Europe are metric-only. I don’t need inches often, but it’s definitely something I do need on occasion. So that rules out all but a few models. The standard one with inches is on sale through the end of the year, but currently sold out. :/

So I guess I’ll keep an eye on stock levels and prices and see if I can find somewhere that has the various brands available to try out!

If your calipers are skipping 0.1" here and there, it's possible your calipers are dirty. Doesn't matter if they're Mitutoyo or $10.00 calipers. Grease or dirt can skew the reading by changing the capacitance. Bad enough, and maybe the micro gets confused. The other potential issue is slow wakeup. If they are the kind that turn on automatically when you move them, maybe you are just moving them too fast from sleep. I always check they're zeroed after turning them on, anyway.

Come to think of it, the erroneous reading thing was a small but real, nagging fear before I switched to the silver oxide LR44. Aside from simply lasting much, much longer, I think the silver oxide produce a more flat voltage and don't screw with the microcontroller so much at their end.  These should be standard fare for calipers.
Trust, me, the problems aren’t a PEBKAC, they’ve been fussy since I bought them. The problem gets worse (far worse!) when the battery gets low, but even with a new one, I start with them zeroed out, and after a few slides back and forth doing measurements, it’s at 5.08mm when closed. Repeated opening and closing will eventually add more 5.08mm increments. (Only rarely, it adds “just” 2.54mm steps...) I think I figured out that holding them a certain way (I forget how) exacerbates the problem. But above all, I’m not talking about “here and there” as in maybe one measurement in 100. We’re talking about it being so often (1 in 5 maybe?) that I am forced to compare every measurement to the physical scale to make sure it hasn’t jumped 5mm...

I just got an SR44 (silver oxide; LR44 is alkaline) since the battery is dead, so they can hold me over until I get a good caliper!

I've never touched a Mitutoyo nor ever been a professional machinist. The closest I get is grinding things on the redneck lathe or the router table. Yes, it's possible to grind steel to less than 1 mil precision with a drill and a dremel. And a $10.00 caliper.
I was pleasantly surprised at just how much smoother the Mitutoyo feels compared to my $15 Aldi ones, or even than the $80 ones at the local retail tool shop. Like, we’re not talking a subtle difference. (And had I not already known what the Mitutoyo felt like, I would have called the $80 ones smooth.)
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2018, 09:15:35 pm »
As for Mitutoyo, upon closer inspection, almost all of the models they sell here in Europe are metric-only.

Wow, that's weird as hell.  I wonder why someone would even make a digital caliper without a switch. :(  An obscure EU rule of some kind, perhaps? 

Certainly no one would buy a (professional-grade) caliper over here that couldn't be switched to metric.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2018, 10:03:20 pm »
As for Mitutoyo, upon closer inspection, almost all of the models they sell here in Europe are metric-only.

Wow, that's weird as hell.  I wonder why someone would even make a digital caliper without a switch. :(  An obscure EU rule of some kind, perhaps? 

Certainly no one would buy a (professional-grade) caliper over here that couldn't be switched to metric.
I doubt it’s a rule, since Mitutoyo sells a few switchable models here — and all the other brands seem to be switchable across the board.

The only reason I can think of — and this is straining my brain, as a usability professional — is to eliminate potential measurement error by accidentally being in the wrong unit. Since users outside of North America will be using metric 99.99% of the time, for them a switch is a potential source of errors with essentially no benefit.

That or it saves 22¥ on a button.
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2018, 01:25:36 pm »
Call me a shoemaker if you want, but I have a 6" electronic caliper from Harbor Freight (Central) that work fine fore me. I am not a tool and die maker, but I do have a good number of years experience in a machine shop and appreciate good tools. For me .001" is good enough and these are repeatable to half of that. I keep several batteries in the case so no worries about going dead. I have a 6"  Mitutoyo dial caliper that is better made, but for my day to day use these HF Centrals suite me just fine and cost about $35 so I don't have to worry about them.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2018, 01:50:43 pm »
Call me a shoemaker if you want, but I have a 6" electronic caliper from Harbor Freight (Central) that work fine fore me. I am not a tool and die maker, but I do have a good number of years experience in a machine shop and appreciate good tools. For me .001" is good enough and these are repeatable to half of that. I keep several batteries in the case so no worries about going dead. I have a 6"  Mitutoyo dial caliper that is better made, but for my day to day use these HF Centrals suite me just fine and cost about $35 so I don't have to worry about them.
I don't need any added accuracy. It's reliability that's driving me mad. (Did you read my original post?) I don't wanna have to buy three different cheapies to find one that works reliably, I'd just as soon buy one good one that I can rely on. (Now that, after owning the cheapies, I know it's a tool I use regularly.)
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2018, 07:08:45 pm »
As for Mitutoyo, upon closer inspection, almost all of the models they sell here in Europe are metric-only.

Wow, that's weird as hell.  I wonder why someone would even make a digital caliper without a switch. :(  An obscure EU rule of some kind, perhaps? 

Certainly no one would buy a (professional-grade) caliper over here that couldn't be switched to metric.

Of course Japan is purely metric too, maybe they just don't see the need.
Chris

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2018, 08:06:33 pm »
Funny, I just came across a post by a pretty famous Youtuber who owns a Bridgeport and a metal lathe. From this horse's mouth:

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The extra $150 it costs to go from Harbor Freight quality to Mitutoyo quality isn't worth it. Unless you are feeding a tool fetish, which, I am.

I'm sure some people have a bad experience with cheap calipers. I bet there's someone at Mitutoyo customer service getting occasional complaints, too.

I'm surprised the battery didn't fix the skipping issue on OP's calipers. Well, it did sound pretty weird, though, what with the exact 5.08 mm offsets.

My 3 sets (and a digital depth/height gauge) are good AF; I can't imagine any different. Personally, I like the "buy 3 cheapie" but I'm fully indoctrinated to Amazon Prime and eBay. Click click. And end up more than likely with 3 good sets. :)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 08:17:45 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2018, 08:14:21 pm »
I still like my $30 Swiss Precision Instruments calipers. I also like my expensive Brown&Sharp calipers too, but they do not have a thumbwheel option, which I do like. The B&S feel a little better, but the readings are the same between them, and have been for a decade.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2018, 08:32:50 pm »
If you have had a bad initial experience, I can fully appreciate how hard it is to believe that these are (maybe) generally good.

Mine have all been perfect out of the box, yet it took several hours of doing actual precision work before I trusted that first one for shit. It was hard to wrap my brain around the precision/repeatability for the $ and the enormous price differential btn them and the professional brands. It took awhile to accept that I can accurately "see" down to really less than half a mil (with multiple measurements near the same location*). We all think we're objective, but our minds are easily influenced. And those numbers on the display don't really mean anything until after they've proven repeatable and on the money, time after time. One bad experience could wreck that trust forever.

*I can map out the topology. Unevenness, taper, out or roundness, down to the half mil, and it is repeatable. Rounding off those digital steps, you can "see" where you are halfway between. And by varying pressure on the thumbwheel, you can get a feel for where in that last half mil you are, even in a single measurement, by where it blinks between two steps. This is not impressive, in itself. It's just a number, and it will change, somewhere. It's impressive that IME, the calipers are precise enough that this is meaningful. On small steel parts, anyhow.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 09:35:43 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2018, 09:39:45 pm »
As for Mitutoyo, upon closer inspection, almost all of the models they sell here in Europe are metric-only.

Wow, that's weird as hell.  I wonder why someone would even make a digital caliper without a switch. :(  An obscure EU rule of some kind, perhaps? 

Certainly no one would buy a (professional-grade) caliper over here that couldn't be switched to metric.

Of course Japan is purely metric too, maybe they just don't see the need.

Machining will never go 100.000% metric.  The "thou" will still be in use when the Last Trump sounds, because there's nothing in the metric system that works as well for real-world measurements.
 

Offline orin

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2018, 10:35:22 pm »
Call me a shoemaker if you want, but I have a 6" electronic caliper from Harbor Freight (Central) that work fine fore me. I am not a tool and die maker, but I do have a good number of years experience in a machine shop and appreciate good tools. For me .001" is good enough and these are repeatable to half of that. I keep several batteries in the case so no worries about going dead. I have a 6"  Mitutoyo dial caliper that is better made, but for my day to day use these HF Centrals suite me just fine and cost about $35 so I don't have to worry about them.


I have a 6" Mitutoyo electronic caliper, but hardly ever use it... mostly I use a cheap Harbor Freight one.  For the measurements I do, it doesn't matter.  The only problem with the HF calipers is that they eat batteries so I have to keep spares around.

FWIW, at the local tech college, they used HF dial gauges.  The instructor, who had compared them to far better gauges of his own, said they couldn't find anything wrong with the HF gauges, and if a student dropped or otherwise broke one, they just went out and bought another... (or pulled one from the cupboard that they'd got when they were on sale at $9.99).
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2018, 01:23:43 am »
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The "thou" will still be in use when the Last Trump sounds, because there's nothing in the metric system that works as well for real-world measurements.
Your statement would hold more weight if your location flag wasn't USA. :)

I grew up with imperial, so I figured I might be biased for my affinity to the thou/mil, even though I didn't really use/comprehend this unit until perhaps the last ten years, getting more into pcb design and fab, where I tend to think and work in mils.

This is the main reason I avoided buying the large digit calipers that are avail, now. The big digits stopping at hundredths doesn't make sense to me for most anything I would use calipers for. 
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2018, 01:26:34 am »
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The "thou" will still be in use when the Last Trump sounds, because there's nothing in the metric system that works as well for real-world measurements.
Your statement would hold more weight if your location flag wasn't USA. :)

I grew up with imperial, so I figured I might be biased for my affinity to the thou/mil, even though I didn't really use/comprehend this unit until perhaps the last ten years, getting more into pcb design and fab, where I tend to think and work in mils.

This is the main reason I avoided buying the large digit calipers that are avail, now. The big digits stopping at hundredths doesn't make sense to me for most anything I would use calipers for.

 :palm:

Another imperial vs metric debate is about to unfold.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2018, 01:34:27 am »
Hah, no. It's just that thous/mil happens to be very convenient size and has a one syllable name. In CAD work of smaller things, it's convenient because you don't to bother with decimal points or zero place holders.

Metric has the "mic," but for most people's grunt work in machining/fab, it's rather small to be useful. Hundredths of millimeters just don't roll off the tongue, and no one makes calipers with that level of resolution or accuracy, which right there makes it not too convenient of a unit. But still, I wonder if we could go back in time, they would have made the metric mic a hundredth of a mm instead of a thousandth. I suppose it's short for micrometer. So it is what it is. Not as generally or widely useful as a thou.

I believe even in the EU engineering/machining worlds, a "thou" is universally understood and not confused with metric.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 01:48:09 am by KL27x »
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2018, 01:47:58 am »
As for Mitutoyo, upon closer inspection, almost all of the models they sell here in Europe are metric-only.

Wow, that's weird as hell.  I wonder why someone would even make a digital caliper without a switch. :(  An obscure EU rule of some kind, perhaps? 

Certainly no one would buy a (professional-grade) caliper over here that couldn't be switched to metric.

Of course Japan is purely metric too, maybe they just don't see the need.

Machining will never go 100.000% metric.  The "thou" will still be in use when the Last Trump sounds, because there's nothing in the metric system that works as well for real-world measurements.

bollocks, there is only one real reason not to go all metric, that is all the old machines and  tools that would need to be replaced

anything modern will do both

 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2018, 01:49:44 am »

bollocks, there is only one real reason not to go all metric, that is all the old machines and  tools that would need to be replaced

anything modern will do both

No 'bollocks' about it.  Ask any actual machinist.

The lack of a unit between a millimeter and a micron is indeed a big problem.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2018, 02:11:35 am »
^
Example
"I want this part to be X, to the nearest thou."

Vs
"I want this part to be X, plus or minus X hundredths of a millimeter."

It's just dumb luck that the thou is what can be machined to, efficiently, without costing a fortune. (Or maybe it is divine intervention?) Whereas this translates to a weird multiple of hundredths of millimeters.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 02:21:41 am by KL27x »
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2018, 02:19:22 am »

bollocks, there is only one real reason not to go all metric, that is all the old machines and  tools that would need to be replaced

anything modern will do both

No 'bollocks' about it.  Ask any actual machinist.

The lack of a unit between a millimeter and a micron is indeed a big problem.

huge problem, that is why no countries except Liberia, Myanmar and the USA has ever done anything... /s

 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2018, 02:29:07 am »
Who cares? For a rough estimation, 4 mils is 0.1 mm, period.
If anyone can't easily juggle between mil and mm, he/she should better be away from heavy machinery.
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2018, 02:43:52 am »
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Who cares?
People? :-// Why do you care that we care?  :-DD :-DD

Working in 1/4 tenths of mm is brilliant. This has all the disadvantages of both systems rolled up into one.

Now that you mention this, I seem to recall reading about this actual unit. Some nerds created it, dubbing it the metric mil. Maybe it is my imagination, because it doesn't pull anything on Google. Or maybe this is what caused the Hubble Telescope Fiasco and no one uses it anymore.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 03:15:57 am by KL27x »
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2018, 03:14:18 am »
As the battery drains, it gets more and more sensitive to spurious jumps.
The rare use and the weak battery life made me go back to manual tools...

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I assume IP67 rating keeps dust out and theoretically improves longevity, right?
It keeps dust and coolant fluid out of the electronics, not off the encoder´s surface.

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What about jaw shape?
Micrometer resolution? Square vs round depth gauge? Carbide jaws? (Expensive!)
The typical applications for calipers is diameter measurement, hole depth, thread spacing, thickness or simply length.
What is best for you.... you got to know that.

Carbide jaws might make sense if you happen to work with hardened steel or hard materials like tungsten or carbide, so that you don´t scratch the calipers with every measurement and start to measure the burr or dents in their surface.

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Some models list “inductive” sensing. Others “absolute positioning”. What should I look for?
Inductive means that the reading head will only fail with conductive or magnetized dirt on the encoder, whilst other methods might have a problem with coolant or forms of dust. Absolute means the signal is encoded in a way to keep the distance even when removing the battery, no zeroing required?!

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I don’t think I need a micrometer, but is it worth having?
It´s biggest advantage over calipers is the hardened surfaces, the high repeatability (micrometers often have a ratchet which ensures the same clamping pressure every time), the parallel surfaces and movement (calipers do need quite some play to move) or with variants that allow attachments the shape that matches the application. Check out universal micrometers for that.

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My actual needs are modest. I’m measuring mostly things like screws, components, cutouts, etc. But I absolutely hate using shitty tools, I want something dependable and that feels good in my hand, where the parts slide smoothly without wobble, with great usability.
The sharp edges of calipers are nice to get into tight space, as long as you hit the proper angle the reading will be good, but once you need to move while on the surface to get the longest or shortest point the clamping pressure varies and repeatability suffers or you cut into the part. Machinists tend to use the combination of telescoping gauges with micrometer or inside micrometers or gauge blocks instead.

It´s that angular error that makes calipers less precise than other ways of measuring a distance.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 03:16:55 am by SparkyFX »
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2018, 03:21:29 am »
Now that you mention this, I seem to recall reading about this actual unit. Some nerds created it, dubbing it the metric mil.

Makes sense. Just like in ICs, the old pitch values were 2.54mm and 1.27mm, while the next generation changed to not 0.635mm, but a more metric friendly 0.65mm, and all future pitches are all metric (0.5mm, 0.4mm, 0.35mm, 0.3mm).

Many PCB engineers in China say x mils, but they really mean x*25 um. Similarly, Chinese PCB fab houses use the same convention. If you pay for a 6 mil process, they will not mandate 152.4 um spacing, instead, they will allow 150 um spacing.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2018, 04:16:27 am »
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Many PCB engineers in China say x mils, but they really mean x*25 um. Similarly, Chinese PCB fab houses use the same convention. If you pay for a 6 mil process, they will not mandate 152.4 um spacing, instead, they will allow 150 um spacing.

Makes perfect sense. I imagined in metric countries machinists would mix it, as in "5.35 millimeters, rounded to a thou/mil." vs saying +-0.25mm.

And in US, in many industries metric units may be more convenient, and not just sciency stuff. Metal platings are often stated in micrometers. It's just a better sized unit for that. This is the reason we have centimeters and millimeters and not just scientific notation *10^x.

Total aside, and you probably don't even know. But if anyone in China or EU knows this....
Why can I buy 6mm die grinders and die grinder bits imported from China? Endmills and engraving bits, too? For rotary tools, plenty of 3mm bits. But no metric router bits? It seems like if China used them, they'd also be exported to the US. I understand that Australia switched over to metric in the 60's, but they also use imperial router bits. I just find it strange die grinders and mills in metric, but not routers. Is this just a lack of import/export? Or do people actually use imperial/SAE routers/bits in China?



 

Offline tooki

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Re: Digital calipers — what to buy?
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2018, 04:33:40 am »
Funny, I just came across a post by a pretty famous Youtuber who owns a Bridgeport and a metal lathe. From this horse's mouth:

Quote
The extra $150 it costs to go from Harbor Freight quality to Mitutoyo quality isn't worth it. Unless you are feeding a tool fetish, which, I am.

I'm sure some people have a bad experience with cheap calipers. I bet there's someone at Mitutoyo customer service getting occasional complaints, too.

I'm surprised the battery didn't fix the skipping issue on OP's calipers. Well, it did sound pretty weird, though, what with the exact 5.08 mm offsets.

My 3 sets (and a digital depth/height gauge) are good AF; I can't imagine any different. Personally, I like the "buy 3 cheapie" but I'm fully indoctrinated to Amazon Prime and eBay. Click click. And end up more than likely with 3 good sets. :)
I don’t want to waste time dicking around. I don’t want three sets. I want one that works 100%. And I’m not in USA. Amazon doesn’t have Prime in Switzerland.

The cheapies have been dicky since day 1. New batteries have never fixed it.

And they’re not as smooth. I want smooth.

I kinda feel I’ve said these things already...
 


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