DMM.s

[grenert]

Our throwaway society, nobody fixes anything any more.  You can bet that after the warranty period they'll say, "It doesn't make sense to have this repaired.  The current model costs $$$."

[EEVblog]

Dave in your review when you took the DMM apart you showed that the display is a separate board, would you think you could order the LCD version from Agilent and replace the display (down the road)?

Not sure, haven't seen inside the LCD version.
I probably wouldn't bet on it.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Our throwaway society, nobody fixes anything any more.  You can bet that after the warranty period they'll say, "It doesn't make sense to have this repaired.  The current model costs $$$."

That's the good thing about Fluke, you can buy replacement parts at reasonable prices, even for old models.

Dave.

[PetrosA]

I have to wonder how long replacement parts will be a part of the Fluke production model or anyone else's for that matter. It can't make economic sense in today's economy to stock replacement parts indefinitely and pay a service tech to do the work if it's cheaper to pay freight and exchange for a new unit. If a company has a good enough QA system in place, they should know the statistics for how many units will fail early and that tells them how many units to overproduce for exchange. It's probable that most users would gladly accept a newer model in exchange for a broken unit and feel they got a good deal out of it. I would

[saturation]

Its not such a bad thing if we have proper recycling.  A lot of older electronics are obsolete.  For test gear, only top quality or metrological grade is worth repairing: high end signal sources, power supplies, scopes, DMM etc., and you can compare the cost of repair versus the cost of new devices.  A 500 MHz analog scope is still a great machine, but if its a boat anchor, you'd have to weigh it value cautiously  .  

The Fluke 80 series is rare example and has been around for over 20 years, its still worth repairing old models for home use, and parts for sections that will likely break are easily obtained: LCD, case, knobs, banana jacks, etc., not so sure of the PCB or specific ICs.  As there are also many thousands in circulation, its also easy to cannibalize parts.

In the late 1990s, the CAT safety rating came into being, and that makes a lot of old service level gear without the built in protection, no longer suitable for professional level work ... making obsolete models made <~ 2000.   In the case of the Fluke 80 series, that means the 83,85 and 87 series 1 and erstaz 2.  I haven't dissected the schematics to know if it the older models can potentially pass CAT III 1000V safety, but the PCBs of the Model III on face value, are different.

Our throwaway society, nobody fixes anything any more.  You can bet that after the warranty period they'll say, "It doesn't make sense to have this repaired.  The current model costs $$$."

Thanks R, I should have emphasized the cautious words.  The hacker in me says it can be done for CAT 1 type of work, but the public forum EE training in me says go with the flow.

As there are 2 threads discussing these meters on slightly different foci, see here about the risks of bypass the battery power.  I think you're chatting there too Rutger, but FYI, I feel a touch guilty for recommending it.

Don't fee guilty saturation, I bought the unit well informed and I am sure I can live with it faults.
If I really can't live with it I can always sell it on ebay and get at least my money back.
Rutger

I do see the 1251/2a series as disposable; the 1271/2a came out only 3 years later and is ruggedized, better features and lower list price slightly less counts and accuracy, but small enough to be inconsequential for a field meter.

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-536902435.0.00&cc=US&lc=eng#262144

Hi, just a follow up. Got an email back from Agilent and no you can't order parts for the unit. I am not sure what "Advanced Unit Exchange" means, but is sounds like a swap, not sure if I like that.  I wonder what happens after the warranty period?

Here is the exact message from Agilent:

The model number U1252A is not designed to be serviced in the field. There is no available Service Guide and there are no replacement parts. This model is handled as an "Advanced Unit Exchange. You would need to call the Service Center and arrange to get a replacement unit. The number is 1-800-829-4444, when connected press #, then option 3 and option 1.

[Rutger]

Ok, I received my 1253 yesterday and I was all excited... I plugged in the adapter with the plug to charge the unit and I heard a spark.
The light on the power supply went off and I pulled the adapter of the charger, luckily the light came back on. So then I check the adapter and it has a short in the leads!  I called Agilent right away as the the packaging slip suggest and after 15 min on the phone they told me "we can't do anything, you need to go back to Grainger".  I went to Grainger and because they are now sold out they offer to refund me. I asked them why I could not just get a new adapter. The grainger employee called Agilent and spend about 30min on the phone and was really trying to get my problem solved, I give Grainger a A+ for effort, but he was shocked that even Agilent was not willing to do anything about the problem. They told him that if they (Grainger) took the meter back they were stuck with it and could not get an exchange or refund from them? This really was a shocker for us both.  They told him that I was to send the meter in to Agilent and I would have it back in 12 weeks!  He and I thought this was crazy, why couldn't they just send me a $ 2 adapter to replace the shorted one was beyond us both.  The last thing that the customer support person told me at Grainger is that if Agilent would give me the run-around they would exchange the meter for the next version - the 1253B, which I think is awesome service from Grainger (ofcourse he would have to get this approved from his manager).  Grainger went far and beyond to help me out and I really appreciate this.

So I have send an service request email to Agilent and am waiting to hear from them back, if they want me to start shipping stuff to them I will take Grainger up on there offer. Grainger has a life long customer in me, but I can't say the same thing about Agilent.
They might make great testing equipment but they really need to work on the customer support and not just with end users but also with big vendors like Grainger.

Rutger

[PetrosA]

Grainger is more expensive than most other dealers, but they offer unbelievable customer service. You truly get what you pay for with them. I tend to use them in two situations - when they're nearby and the difference in price isn't enough to warrant driving to another supplier and/or when I need something special ordered. Their distribution system is one of the best around and it's rare to wait more than 48 hrs. for a part, tool etc. You might have noticed that each item has its own in-house alphanumeric code. Thanks to that system, I've never had an order messed up - ever. True professionals...

[Kiriakos-GR]

Wow ... that's a terrible behavior of Agilent .

And it is good enough as reason, so to personally blame them for life ..

My own adventure with the Fluke customer support , makes them to look now as angels ,
in comparison with Agilent and their policy's .

[saturation]

Ouch, sorry to hear.  Made me check mine.  You've made a customer for Grainger out off me, as my bad experiences with products is limited.  They went above and beyond, that's exceptional.

I would take them on the offer of the 1253b immediately, hopefully it doesn't have a bad supply too!  You've already been given the run around, 12 week wait for a just purchased item is too long.  I'd ask Grainger to exchange it for the upgrade, today.

My PSU unit has no light; the PSU has the banana males directly cabled to it and no power light.  The AC lines is connected via a removable standard PC 3 prong extension cord.  What I understand by this is you plugged just the charger unit into the AC lines then heard the spark?

The 'can't take it back' suggests to me its being discontinued.

While the DMM is made in Taiwan and the silicone probes appear competitive with Fluke, the PSU and probe accessories included are very cheap looking, I'll presume its electrically CAT rated safe.  In fact, you can't insert the probe accessories into the probe without looking at them and aiming for the connector, the Fluke probes are completely trouble free.  Except for the silicone insulation, these $43 "1161a" accessory kit are made worse than a $10 PCB coated Radio Shack probe kit I have from years ago.

BTW, the kit label is wrong, the contents are of the $60 1160a, anyone who has this DMM can confirm it.  Not a bad 'upgrade' but the mislabelling suggests there's a dufus in the pipeline.

I got this: not this:

Ok, I received my 1253 yesterday and I was all excited... I plugged in the adapter with the plug to charge the unit and I heard a spark.
The light on the power supply went off and I pulled the adapter of the charger, luckily the light came back on. So then I check the adapter and it has a short in the leads!  I called Agilent right away as the the packaging slip suggest and after 15 min on the phone they told me "we can't do anything, you need to go back to Grainger".  I went to Grainger and because they are now sold out they offer to refund me. I asked them why I could not just get a new adapter. The grainger employee called Agilent and spend about 30min on the phone and was really trying to get my problem solved, I give Grainger a A+ for effort, but he was shocked that even Agilent was not willing to do anything about the problem. They told him that if they (Grainger) took the meter back they were stuck with it and could not get an exchange or refund from them? This really was a shocker for us both.  They told him that I was to send the meter in to Agilent and I would have it back in 12 weeks!  He and I thought this was crazy, why couldn't they just send me a $ 2 adapter to replace the shorted one was beyond us both.  The last thing that the customer support person told me at Grainger is that if Agilent would give me the run-around they would exchange the meter for the next version - the 1253B, which I think is awesome service from Grainger (ofcourse he would have to get this approved from his manager).  Grainger went far and beyond to help me out and I really appreciate this.

So I have send an service request email to Agilent and am waiting to hear from them back, if they want me to start shipping stuff to them I will take Grainger up on there offer. Grainger has a life long customer in me, but I can't say the same thing about Agilent.
They might make great testing equipment but they really need to work on the customer support and not just with end users but also with big vendors like Grainger.

Rutger

[Rutger]

My PSU unit has no light; the PSU has the banana males directly cabled to it and no power light.  The AC lines is connected via a removable standard PC 3 prong extension cord.  What I understand by this is you plugged just the charger unit into the AC lines then heard the spark?

My unit was package in 2009 and has a separate PSU with a light and a adapter kit with the banana plugs. When I plugged adapter to the connector on the PSU I heard the spark, it is the adapter with the banana plugs that has the short in it. The adapter is made in China.
When I talked to Agilent directly the support technician could not understand why I had this kind of setup, according to him the charger unit in the box should have been an all in one unit. My guess is that I got one of 1st editions, and Agilent soon started getting complains about the adapter like I experienced.  I don't expect Agilent to suddenly send me a new adapter and I expect them to send an email back with shipping instructions, so I will take Grainger up on the offer (that is what I expect). The 1253B looks like the exact same meter, but I am hoping they have solved some of the short comings like the slow Continuity test. I will let you know what it outcome is.  I might even ask Grainger the 'downgrade' to the LCD version, which I wouldn't mind at all 

Rutger

[saturation]

Its worth waiting and getting it replaced, I can't believe how good this DMM is.  The more I use the unit, the more I like it over the Fluke 87V for the kind of work I do.  It certainly can compete with it easily.

I just completed half of a performance test of the 1252a versus the Fluke 87v, 85III, 85I, and a calibrated HP3456a, a 6.5 digit DVM accurate to 1uV.  In all cases using Vdc, ohms, and frequency counters, the 1252a and the 87V are on par to their limits, except when the 87V cannot use its 4.5 digit mode and Fluke goes only to 800kHz.

The Fluke is easier to use because the buttons seems better laid out, but I can't separate ergonomics from the fact I've used Flukes for over 20 years.  However, I can zip along the Agilent easily too, but I find the twisted buttons, well twisted  

The meters are all equivalent at DC from 30.000 mVdc to 1000.0 Vdc using the 3456a as the standard comparison DMM.  They are both accurate down to their last significant digit!

However in Vac, from 330mVac to 6.000 Vac, from 60 Hz to 100kHz, the 1252a exceeds its published specs and is only rivaled by the 3456a.  Its amazing how accurate its TRMS is, using sine, square and triangle waveforms.  The Fluke 87V & 85III are at its best under 1kHZ and its still 2-3x less accurate than the 1252a.

Its so fast, sensitive and accurate that its superbly suited for electronics work, plus it one range lower on its AC and DC scales.  The logging is great!  I can't live without it now.

[saturation]

Yes, that is unusual, my adapter and all accessories were sealed all in the same box, manufacture date was 11/2007.  Yes, on the 1252a all the accessories are China, the 1252a is Taiwan.  The B model are just orange colored cases, AFAIK.  As in my last post, its virtues exceed its vices and as a superb measuring instrument its worth the wait.  The beep and continuity check are weaker and slower than the Fluke but it excels in other areas the Fluke 87V doesn't have:

Vac accuracy
Data logging
DC + AC measurement [ I normally check this with a scope, now I can do it with just a DMM]

Given the amp accuracy is tied to its V accuracy, I expect it to easily excel in AC too, but haven't had the time to test it yet.

Keep us posted.

My PSU unit has no light; the PSU has the banana males directly cabled to it and no power light.  The AC line is connected via a removable standard PC 3 prong extension cord.  What I understand by this is you plugged just the charger unit into the AC lines then heard the spark?

My unit was package in 2009 and has a separate PSU with a light and a adapter kit with the banana plugs. When I plugged adapter to the connector on the PSU I heard the spark, it is the adapter with the banana plugs that has the short in it. The adapter is made in China.
When I talked to Agilent directly the support technician could not understand why I had this kind of setup, according to him the charger unit in the box should have been an all in one unit. My guess is that I got one of 1st editions, and Agilent soon started getting complains about the adapter like I experienced.  I don't expect Agilent to suddenly send me a new adapter and I expect them to send an email back with shipping instructions, so I will take Grainger up on the offer (that is what I expect). The 1253B looks like the exact same meter, but I am hoping they have solved some of the short comings like the slow Continuity test. I will let you know what it outcome is.  I might even ask Grainger the 'downgrade' to the LCD version, which I wouldn't mind at all 

Rutger

[Rutger]

Well, Agilent did come through after all, the send me a shipping label and expedited the repair. They told me 2 weeks. So I shipped the unit off to the Agilent repair center in California.  I hope the have it back soon.

Rutger

[alexwhittemore]

I just have to throw in my 2c for Grainger as well. I've never had to use their customer service in anger, only for informational/administrative things. For example, the first time I placed an order, I had it shipped to an academic building on campus. A Grainger rep called me the next morning after I ordered and asked if I was really part of the same account that includes other departments and professors in the building, and added me to the academic account without me even realizing it was an option. That was huge both because it proactively kept everything neat and tidy for accounting on their end, but also because the academic account gets no tax and free shipping. And indeed I should have been on there to start, if only I'd known.

The second experience was through email to check when a backordered part would ship. They got back to me within the hour to say that it would ship in 3 days from their south carolina facility, and to call this number if I had more questions.

Generally speaking, they're super freaking helpful, and I've heard nothing but the same from everyone else I know who's used them. And the guy I'm thinking of in particular RARELY gives customer service the benefit of the doubt, so it's even more a testament to their patience that they're on his good side now . And they're a local shop, just about everywhere. They're first on my list of tools vendors from now on.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well, Agilent did come through after all, the send me a shipping label and expedited the repair. They told me 2 weeks. So I shipped the unit off to the Agilent repair center in California.  I hope the have it back soon.

Rutger

It looks that had passed over 25 days from your post ,
what was the up come ?  

[Rutger]

Have been kind of busy, but I did get the meter back after 2 1/2 weeks. And yes they replaced the charger and gave me a updated calibration report.

In the mean time I needed a DMM and scored a nice used Fluke 87 V through craigslist.  I must say this Fluke, although an older design is a better meter than my new Agilent. Maybe not in terms of features or precision, but it is just more user friendly and has a better overall feel to it (I love my Flukes!). Its hard to say what it is, but I am thinking now of selling this fancy Agilent meter and just keeping my Fluke!

[Kiriakos-GR]

Thanks for replying to my message .

What its hard to find this days , are testimonials of how well , those famous brands respond,
if you get in trouble with their items.
It looks that Agilent solved the problem , in a logical time frame ,
and this is what matters the most.

[saturation]

Yes, construction wise, the plastic housing and user response is more solid feeling, you get a sure feeling from its readouts.  Its 20 years old models still reads true, and can still hold its own in speed and accuracy.

I have growth to like the Agilent 1252a because its far more accurate than the Fluke in AC and a match in DC.  Its great as an ersatz bench meter.  The battery life is a PITA, but with LDS 9V NiMH, it last far longer than I've expected.  I've been using it daily, and a single charge is still running now for 3 weeks.   Dual display really is helpful, when measuring circuits that have small AC components superimposed on DC, and vice versa, plus many others, such as measuring frequency and voltage simultaneously.  Its better to use the scope, but the DMM is ready faster than getting the scope booted up.  However, I don't think its tough enough to take on field trips, where I have only one meter to rely on its the Fluke and I have to rely on battery power for a week in middle of nowhere.

Have been kind of busy, but I did get the meter back after 2 1/2 weeks. And yes they replaced the charger and gave me a updated calibration report.

In the mean time I needed a DMM and scored a nice used Fluke 87 V through craigslist.  I must say this Fluke, although an older design is a better meter than my new Agilent. Maybe not in terms of features or precision, but it is just more user friendly and has a better overall feel to it (I love my Flukes!). Its hard to say what it is, but I am thinking now of selling this fancy Agilent meter and just keeping my Fluke!

[Kiriakos-GR]

However, I don't think its tough enough to take on field trips, where I have only one meter to rely on its the Fluke and I have to rely on battery power for a week in middle of nowhere.

I bet that Agilent are capable to build an special model for use in the jungle
Special for Wild field use 
But you need to ask for it .
 

 

[saturation]

Sure Kiriakos, they need to copy the Fluke 80 series; I've taken Fluke's to jungles without a problem.  Many of my military friends take them in worse conditions, both on land and sea, and I've heard they have been used routinely in the space shuttle in space.

It remains accurate without calibration after 20 years,  10 years off on going to jungles and ocean trips, exposed to salt, sand and dirt.  And its only IP30 rated and has no maintenance from me except cleaning.

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/community/fluke-news-plus/ArticleCategories/RD/

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/FOIA/NNC09BA02B/NNC09BA02B%20-%20Attachment%20J-3h.pdf

If you look at NASA's standard equipment list, Fluke meters are all over their facilities, just look for product numbers like 87III, scope meter, and 179 logging meters.  Also many good Agilent HP bench meters are there too, but not the handheld category.

However, I don't think its tough enough to take on field trips, where I have only one meter to rely on its the Fluke and I have to rely on battery power for a week in middle of nowhere.

I bet that Agilent are capable to build an special model for use in the jungle
Special for Wild field use  
But you need to ask for it .
  

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well S.  , I can not follow this path of your thinking  .

Especially when I have examples near me , like the large Pro's Kit DMM that it is made in Taiwan ,
and under the hood , has an PCB made by Mastech .
And it is my main DMM since 1990 = 21 years until today ..
Its still rock solid and accurate , and it is completely off  at the 200MOhm range that I do not use .

Even so , I do not believe that Mastech is any king of DMM's ,
but I do believe that this model it was an true success .
( and so I have become "Model loyal"  than " Brand loyal"  )  

Do not also forget, how vulnerable are the modern Electronics !!
We get expensive mobile phones , that moisture can kill them in one night ,
if you forget them on the table at night,  under the clear sky !!

The Old Fluke models, like the bench type   8010A / 8012A / 8050A ,
are truly build to last .
But they can not follow , or be that useful with the modern needs.

What I am trying to say , are that today its harder than before ,
to find true robust electronics , like the ones found  in our past .

And so we have to evaluate daily every single product ,
no matter the brand of it .

The idea like ...  blind trust due brand loyal ship,  is DEAD to me.

    

        

[saturation]

In the US, major departments like the Army, Navy or NASA have a documented set of parameters reflecting the accuracy and robustness of any tools for use in their service; if the equipment passes, samples are then thoroughly tested in labs.  So for the military to use it means they too have checked the Fluke 80 series.

To be used in the space shuttle, it would be tested at lower working atmospheric pressure and higher radiation exposure.  NASA has specifications of derating required in the design phase, in order for equipment to survive space use, and to be such, the electronics has to far more robustly made than those used on earth.  So it tells you a little bit, how well they are designed electronically and why the units last so long.

Brand loyalty is a problematic concept because all tools coming out of any 'brand' can have production defects, even if designed correctly, so you must performance check each tool you add to your lab or tool box.  

I would be skeptical if your 21 year old DMM is truly working properly, but maybe its accurate enough for your type of work or it was a defect when first bought it.  If one section of  DMM fails or is unreliable, as you suggest with your 200 Meg ohm range, I would have to be sure all the other ranges are truly working properly by a metrology quality check.  My meters are as old, and all ranges work as factory specified because that's what it was purchased for, if we needed lesser DMMs, we could have bought a cheaper one.

Well S.  , I can not follow this path of your thinking  .

Especially when I have examples near me , like the large Pro's Kit DMM that it is made in Taiwan ,
and under the hood , has an PCB made by Mastech .
And it is my main DMM since 1990 = 21 years until today ..
Its still rock solid and accurate , and it is completely off  at the 200MOhm range that I do not use .

Even so , I do not believe that Mastech is any king of DMM's ,
but I do believe that this modelt was an true success .
( and so I have become "Model loyal"  than " Brand loyal"  )  

Do not also forget, how vulnerable are the modern Electronics !!
We get expensive mobile phones , that moisture can kill them in one night ,
if you forget them on the table at night,  under the clear sky !!

The Old Fluke models, like the bench type   8010A / 8012A / 8050A ,
are truly build to last .
But they can not follow , or be that useful with the modern needs.

What I am trying to say , are that today its harder than before ,
to find true robust electronics , like the ones found  in our past .

And so we have to evaluate daily every single product ,
no matter the brand of it .

The idea like ...  blind trust due brand loyal ship,  is DEAD to me.
  

        

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well I do not have the mood to continue an such dialog.

Because it brings to my mind , the cars who races  like F1 , and the normal cars.
And the picture of the poor guy who gets an average normal car , and acts like F1 driver .

Even so , If I will ever decide to go to the moon , I will buy one DMM made is USSR.
There is no a single source about anything in this planet . 

[saturation]

Well K, your analog is faulty, F1 cars are very unreliable, it needs a team of people to keep it working.

Its probably more like military surplus binoculars, or just a military grade backpack, if it was designed to survive the abuse by the military, to work in desert heat and freezing artic weather, it should be good enough for you to use for civilian use.  Because these tools are mass produced it can easily be found in surplus stores, brand new, and very cheaply too.

To be more specific, there was a military grade Fluke issued in the 1980s, the Fluke 27, and that is built like a stone.

Well I do not have the mood to continue an such dialog.

Because it brings to my mind , the cars who races  like F1 , and the normal cars.
And the picture of the poor guy who gets an average normal car , and acts like F1 driver .

Even so , If I will ever decide to go to the moon , I will buy one DMM made is USSR.
There is no a single source about anything in this planet .  

[Kiriakos-GR]

The truth is that I do hide some admiration about Fluke and especially for the specific models like 8010A / 8012A / 8050A .

When I did read the service manual , about PCB disinfection ,
like that you can wash it out, and let it for hours in to a oven at 60 C so to be cooked up and dry.

I had an huge and major surprise.

But I can not say the same about the fresh made ones ( Last decade )   

And so nothing will convince me about that if an model stands up to all the quality factors ,
other than lots of positive testimonials about it.