Author Topic: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??  (Read 758758 times)

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Offline dannyf

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1550 on: November 14, 2014, 03:59:14 pm »
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Supply chains are impenetrable

It depends on whose supply chains that conversation was referring to  - the original conversation didn't provide a clear context.

If your supply chain involves sourcing from Chinese ebay vendors, it is probably a little bit less than "impenetrable", :)
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Offline Rigby

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1551 on: November 14, 2014, 04:14:18 pm »
If you used FTDI drivers with non-FTDI chips, the responsibility for any damage is on you.

Eh, I can't make that leap.  If I buy a product in good faith and pay a respectable vendor real money for what I believe is a real FTDI chip (genuine components throughout) then how is it my fault if I'm delivered a product with a fake chip?  I do all the right things and buy from places with reputations for quality products and I pay the higher price for a real chip, and I get a fake chip... how in the world is that my fault?

If I CHOSE to use an FTDI driver with a KNOWN fake chip, maybe I can join that cause, but given that the VID and PID were the same as genuine, automated kernel drivers and windows update make driver loading/installation invisible, so there's little chance that someone could actually choose to use an FTDI driver or not.

The fault lies with FTDI's driver.  What right do FTDI have to modify hardware that I purchased from someone else?  Technical retaliation on an end-user for a distribution chain problem is not valid in any circumstances, so long as the end user acted in good faith.  Copyright and trademark infringement are legal issues and need to be dealt with legally via the supply chain.  Attacking the end user is not a valid approach.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1552 on: November 14, 2014, 04:20:27 pm »
Let me try to break it down for you all:

You/FTDI produced a great product. In fact that it is so great that I produced a knock-off and sold it to a 3rd party under a pretense.

Now, the 3rd party found out that this knock-off doesn't work anymore and they ask, no, they demand, that you/FTDI make its drivers work with knock-off parts that stole the business from them.

I may consider FTDI's actions here unwise, but not illegal, not even unethical. They have lost a business opportunity (to the knock-offs) and all they are trying to do is to make sure that they benefit from the fruit of their labor. I have a lot of sympathy for that.

The burden is on you, as a buyer of knock-off goods, to demand that whoever sold you the knock-offs produce a working driver and/or to insist on them using legit parts.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1553 on: November 14, 2014, 04:24:56 pm »
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If I buy a product in good faith and pay a respectable vendor real money for what I believe is a real FTDI chip (genuine components throughout)

So we are in agreement that those ebay buyers shouldn't apply here? that probably knocked out 99.99% of the anti-FTDI crowd here.

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then how is it my fault if I'm delivered a product with a fake chip? 

I can give you a few reasons but how did you make it FTDI's fault that you are delivered a knock-off?

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I do all the right things

Doing all the right things doesn't assure the right outcome, or absolve you of responsibilities. Many times, bad things happen to good people. and that's called life.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1554 on: November 14, 2014, 04:50:24 pm »
Luxury watch manufactures can confiscate fake goods and even destroy them. Not that they are making a dent but, there is legal precedence.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/arieladams/2013/05/30/the-truth-about-replica-watches/

Let's put it this way (and only playing devils advocate because I also don't agree on what FTDI did, because they didn't inform the user, but that's all they needed to do)

I detect a fake watch, I could confiscate it and inform the local trading authorities and keep it as evidence of a law being broken.

Officials will investigate and a judge can order the destruction of the fake goods, the victims that purchased the fake goods will have to take it with the vendor. And the authorities will prosecute that vendor if they have the jurisdiction to do so.

Try to take a fake high end watch to the jeweler that is authorized to work on the real brand watch just for maintenance or even for repair, and then tell us what happens.

FTDI could have been more proactive and announce the user of the fake goods and to please send them the information needed, as for confiscating the chips they probably can do that too and let the users alert the trading authorities so they can investigate fake goods.

If you want to take it to an extreme, try to send anything that is not authentic to Italy, there is a reason ebay sellers don't deal with Italy, but the reason is not lazy customs, on the contrary they are the hardests working custom officials that will destroy fake goods on the spot. Even if they pull you over for speeding and they notice you have fake goods. (not sure what they will do with a dress someone is wearing at the moment).

I think that legally someone defending a fake chip (and we are not talking about just clones, but actual fakes with the branding on the chip) are going to be disappointed in the long run because the law is going to side with the trading laws.

FTDI should just find them and even render them useless but also notify the user to contact the appropriate authorities so they can gather the evidence and investigate it further. If it was my company I might do that, after consulting with the authorities and lawyers first to make sure I'm within legal bounds of course.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1555 on: November 14, 2014, 05:01:58 pm »
What else do you want from FTDI?
Repeating (for probably the 10th time!) If FTDI really wants to play that game, then simply refuse to talk to a counterfeit chip. It would be to everyone's benefit to also pop up a message saying that "A counterfeit chip has been detected......"

What we DO NOT expect from a company who values their customers is DELIBERATELY bricking the counterfeit chip.  Again, as has been stated many times here before, that is likely even ILLEGAL in some jurisdictions.  And otherwise shows FTDI as having extraordinarily bad judgement, significantly lowering their brand reputation.

There has been a long-standing conceept of hardware, software, etc. being "User Friendly".  But there are other things for which I have devised the term "User Vicious".  FTDIgate is definitely one of them.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 05:03:56 pm by Richard Crowley »
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1556 on: November 14, 2014, 05:07:02 pm »
this reminds me of nikon.  I used to love nikon cameras and lenses.  then, I found out that the greymarket gear (still 100% legit gear made by nikon on the same production lines as the non-grey gear) is unfixable in US nikon centers.  they force you to buy lenses and such with a US marked on the serial number (for us yanks).  they won't even fix the gear FOR A FEE; I would not expect free fixes, but I would expect them to fix things if I pay the standard repair fee.

so, I sold my nikon gear and never looked back.  they still make excellent gear, but their stance on their 'white balance' encryption bullshit and the greymarket scandal issue from them put a total stop on all purchases I would consider making from them.

when a vendor acts hostile toward its users, its bye-bye vendor, forever, for me.

ftdi, join the nikon and sony club.  you don't even exist to me, anymore.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1557 on: November 14, 2014, 05:16:44 pm »
Quote
how is it my fault if I'm delivered a product with a fake chip?

As a society, we have forgotten personal accountability and responsibilities.

It's the fast foot companies' fault that I am too fat;

It's MaDonald's fault that my coffee is hotter than I expected;

It's the rich's fault that I am poor;

It's employers' fault that I am jobless;

It's banks' fault that I have to pay my debts;

It's taxpayers' fault that I am driving a beat-up car;

It's policy's fault that I am in jail.

...

At some point, you ARE going to be responsible for who you are and where you are.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1558 on: November 14, 2014, 05:21:04 pm »
this reminds me of nikon.  ...
ftdi, join the nikon and sony club.  you don't even exist to me, anymore.

Let's say that Nikon has the best optics all around and you are a professional photographer. Would you still pass on Nikon and end up with lower quality prints that put you behind your competition?

I guess you are free to do that.

Edit: and should Nikon allow lenses that didn't pass their strict quality control and end up in the grey market, to be treated as their gear? Lowering the overall quality of the products they provide?

Edit: On that as well, try to take an authentic grey market luxury watch to a jeweler and report what happens.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 05:25:42 pm by miguelvp »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1559 on: November 14, 2014, 05:28:36 pm »
What else do you want from FTDI? After all, they didn't mate your fake chips with their drivers. You did. Why should they be responsible for your doing it?

I want them not to intentionally brick chips that are not theirs. The fact that the OS selected their driver to run doesn't give them the permission to intentionally create damage. That's why Microsoft wisely reverted that malicious driver change.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1560 on: November 14, 2014, 05:44:55 pm »
So here is a search I normally do when researching a chip early on. I'm sure this is a common routine, why not let other do work for you at no cost?. I simply include the word "problems"  with the part number in a google search. Many times I go no deeper than the search return (if I see issues) and pick another part. Issues are of course anything from availability, customer service as well as the technical ones.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=FTDI+FT232%3F%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&gfe_rd=cr&ei=WjtmVIaPDMqV8QfmqYGoCg&gws_rd=ssl#rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=FT232+problems 

To me this is what FTDI did not consider correctly (a simple google search). Skipping problem components is a simple way to cut your workload and help your customer / employer make a better product.

No, I don't search for counterfeit issues in particular. If I find some chances are I will search for a different component (manufacturer) to fit the bill. Does that make me socially irresponsible or just want to make a less problematic build? You pick.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1561 on: November 14, 2014, 05:45:14 pm »
Luxury watch manufactures can confiscate fake goods and even destroy them. Not that they are making a dent but, there is legal precedence.

No, they absolutely cannot do this in the US.  Only the Customs Service can do that, and they can't seize them from end users, only at the point of importation.
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1562 on: November 14, 2014, 05:48:57 pm »
this reminds me of nikon.  ...
ftdi, join the nikon and sony club.  you don't even exist to me, anymore.

Let's say that Nikon has the best optics all around and you are a professional photographer. Would you still pass on Nikon and end up with lower quality prints that put you behind your competition?

I guess you are free to do that.

Edit: and should Nikon allow lenses that didn't pass their strict quality control and end up in the grey market, to be treated as their gear? Lowering the overall quality of the products they provide?

Edit: On that as well, try to take an authentic grey market luxury watch to a jeweler and report what happens.

you are VERY wrong about greymarket.  its never been about poor quality or rejects.  its ENTIRELY about bypassing guys who line their pockets as simple middle-man.  its about distribution, not quality - never was and likely never will be.  in fact, you can buy a lens overseas in a store overseas and nikon will still give you hassles in getting it fixed locally, from last I heard.  they are just a PITA to deal with.

they are not the only or even the best vendor out there in this space, so I'll go with someone else if I have to.  I picked olympus many years ago (due to having top-notch weather sealed lenses that nikon or canon could not even do well) but I lost out when oly gave up the market and went with a new format, still using noiseboxes as sensors ;(  but, the company service center had none of the issues with greymarket stuff and they'd always fix your gear, bought here or elsewhere.  not a bad company to deal with and I've had to get some repairs done in the past and it was painless.

if I was a pro, I would not even have a choice; I'd take what was given to me by my paper or org.  that's how it goes.  you use what the rest of the staff does, so that you can have one pool of gear as usables and shelf-spares.  it would not be me paying for them or fixing them.  but if its my money, none of it goes to nikon or sony (or a bunch of other bad companies).

and again, the nikon-gate issue of their raw image processing stuff locking out free open source apps due to white-balance encryption stuff put a bad taste in my mouth, too.  I should not have to pay nikon to process the raw files.  I don't for canon and I don't for oly and likely, not for any other company, either.  nikon stood alone in that front and got a black eye from many photogs, once they learned this.  the ones who get the raw software for free don't care but those of us who are hobbiests or on a tight budget can't afford to buy a raw processor just because nikon wants to make it a profit center instead of a leverage.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1563 on: November 14, 2014, 05:51:30 pm »
Edit: and should Nikon allow lenses that didn't pass their strict quality control and end up in the grey market, to be treated as their gear? Lowering the overall quality of the products they provide?
This is silly, gray market Nikon lenses are not QC rejects, they just were not imported by Nikon USA.  They are all made in the same place to the same standards.  They even have a Nikon warranty, if you take the trouble to send them back to the country where they were originally sold.

Quote
Edit: On that as well, try to take an authentic grey market luxury watch to a jeweler and report what happens.
An independent jeweler would not care, just as an independent camera repairperson would be happy to work on a gray market Nikon lens.

I have no idea what this has to do with FTDI though.
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1564 on: November 14, 2014, 05:54:55 pm »
Quote
Supply chains are impenetrable

It depends on whose supply chains that conversation was referring to  - the original conversation didn't provide a clear context.

If your supply chain involves sourcing from Chinese ebay vendors, it is probably a little bit less than "impenetrable", :)
Please notice that I've only used the quote mark once in my post, otherwise I just wrote how the general conversation went.
Former username: NANDBlog
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1565 on: November 14, 2014, 05:57:07 pm »
what it has to do with ftdi is a company acting like its products are made directly by god, him/herself. ;)

and they feel they have a right to sabotage things that don't pass thru their blessed channels.

they are both hostile toward users unless the users play by THEIR rules.

I see lots of similarities in mind-think between the companies.  maybe you don't, but the 'counterfit' argument is being used by both ftdi and nikon and it affects end-users unfairly.  if I buy a used lens that does not have the US marking on it, why should I be denied ability to have it fixed, for a standard repair fee?  nikon is going out of their way to make lives more difficult than they should be.  they feel they are entitled to this and that.  just like ftdi feels entitled to ruin hardware that claims the ftdi driver but is not ftdi hardware.

 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1566 on: November 14, 2014, 05:58:47 pm »
I have no idea what this has to do with FTDI though.

This is why:


It's more a trademark issue than anything else.
 

Offline janengelbrecht

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1567 on: November 14, 2014, 06:05:12 pm »
Normaly I think its ok to protect ones patents. Whats not okay is to destroy others property. So if I made a chip which depended on drivers I also made then i simply would see to that my drivers wouldnt work with counterfit hardware....
Well someone learned a Lesson I think this time :) In the Ink Jet Printer world the printers look for a chip and if it isnt there the printer just wont work.....that ok in my world...nothing is destroyed :)

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1568 on: November 14, 2014, 06:11:02 pm »
Well someone learned a Lesson I think this time :)
If you mean that the customers learned the lesson to avoid FTDI, then yes, I believe you are correct.
If you mean that FTDI learned the lesson to not behave in a hostile manner to their customers, then clearly they have NOT.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1569 on: November 14, 2014, 06:16:12 pm »
Let me try to break it down for you all:

You/FTDI produced a great product. In fact that it is so great that I produced a knock-off and sold it to a 3rd party under a pretense.

Now, the 3rd party found out that this knock-off doesn't work anymore and they ask, no, they demand, that you/FTDI make its drivers work with knock-off parts that stole the business from them.

I may consider FTDI's actions here unwise, but not illegal, not even unethical. They have lost a business opportunity (to the knock-offs) and all they are trying to do is to make sure that they benefit from the fruit of their labor. I have a lot of sympathy for that.

The burden is on you, as a buyer of knock-off goods, to demand that whoever sold you the knock-offs produce a working driver and/or to insist on them using legit parts.

Let me put it into perspective for you as always a valuable point was missed in order to make your earth shattering argument. How old is the FT232 ? how long do the fakes date back to ? the people beig punished could be people who own products that were bought quite some time ago and who may not even rememdber where the goods came from in order to complain, so totally missed target as the wrong people get punished. what FTDI did was stupid, short sightted and selfish but then I've never seen much else come out of their part of the world lately.
 

Online electr_peter

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1570 on: November 14, 2014, 06:39:21 pm »
what it has to do with ftdi is a company acting like its products are made directly by god, him/herself. ;)

and they feel they have a right to sabotage things that don't pass thru their blessed channels.

they are both hostile toward users unless the users play by THEIR rules.

I see lots of similarities in mind-think between the companies.  maybe you don't, but the 'counterfit' argument is being used by both ftdi and nikon and it affects end-users unfairly.  if I buy a used lens that does not have the US marking on it, why should I be denied ability to have it fixed, for a standard repair fee?  nikon is going out of their way to make lives more difficult than they should be.  they feel they are entitled to this and that.  just like ftdi feels entitled to ruin hardware that claims the ftdi driver but is not ftdi hardware.
FTDI and many other companies are trying to create monopoly for them in many legal and barely legal ways. Such companies do extensive PR to spread FUD about dangers of "unofficial" products for end user, claims extensive monopoly rights (granted or not), do other "warfare" against competitors,  limits support for products, etc. Granted, some information about "dangers" may be true or partially true, but still.
Among this "warfare", end user is negatively affected - user is left with ambiguous information about the market, gets less innovation and pays higher prices. I am not sure why some forum members tries to defend this "monopolistic" behaviour negatively affecting end users.
I have no idea what this has to do with FTDI though.
This is why:
<image of ICs with FTDI logos>
It's more a trademark issue than anything else.
Simple question - if you see an IC with FTDI logo, how do you decide that it is original? There is simply no 100% sure way short of de capping IC.

The issue that is clearly misunderstood by FTDI and some forum users - there are always some probability that chip is not original even all available evidnece show that it is original. There is no certainty that chip is original or not. Even if you intent to use original chips, use strict policies, etc. Deal with it. And stop assuming that everyone who is using fake (or non genuine FTDI chips from FTDI) is scammer of some sort - that is wrong assumption.
FTDI simply assumes that everyone who use non original FTDI chips (these may or may not have FTDI logo, be clones/fakes/etc. - mostly legal, some probably not, FTDI does not know, you neither) are bad guys using illegal counterfeit chips and decides to punish them with killer driver (again, this is almost certainly illegal - FTDI cannot both themselves determine legality of other people's property and damage other people's property. There is legal systems for this.)

In short, FTDI pushes a risk of genuine chips to end users (which have nothing to do with it) and tries to establish monopoly barricades in this market via actions with unclear legal status. With recent actions FTDI increased this risk massively for FTDI branded chips so rational user/designer/manufacturer would less likely choose FTDI over competing products.
 

Offline janengelbrecht

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1571 on: November 14, 2014, 06:57:45 pm »
I think it doesnt matter what anybody feel and think....what is the legal essence of the case ? Is there a basis for lawsuits.....thats what matter :)

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1572 on: November 14, 2014, 07:05:06 pm »
I think it doesnt matter what anybody feel and think....what is the legal essence of the case ? Is there a basis for lawsuits.....thats what matter :)
Destruction of property for sure. The problem is that in most cases the damage is small for individuals. Perhaps if a large number of people would file a group lawsuit it could be substantial criminal and civil claim.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1573 on: November 14, 2014, 07:05:24 pm »
I think it doesnt matter what anybody feel and think....

au contraire.  It matters A GREAT DEAL what customers FEEL and THINK.  FTDI's future as a customer-friendly vendor are at stake here, and they have shot themselves in the foot, or maybe even a more critical part of their corporate anatomy.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1574 on: November 14, 2014, 07:13:23 pm »
I've explained to them, that actual engineers bricked their dev boards, which has nothing to do with FTDI. Of course that is the dev board's manufacturer's problem.

So which dev boards have been bricked and what did their manufacturer say about it?

29 more posts and I'm still waiting to hear of one example dev board that got bricked and what the manufacturer said about it......
 


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