Author Topic: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??  (Read 756404 times)

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Offline serggio

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1700 on: May 25, 2016, 07:28:16 pm »

You don't know of and don't want to know of one of the largest electronics equipment and component distributors in the western world?

Your arrogance and willful ignorance is terrifying.
May be this seems like that to you, but I do not have any business with them and their name tell nothing for me. If they selling infringing goods, may be it's time to stop work with them?
Probably they thick and arrogant enough, that their reputation does not matter for them, if they still selling counterfeit?
They need stop to do this, or, if FTDI really have problem with their production, stop to work with FTDI instead?
 

Online Gyro

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1701 on: May 25, 2016, 07:40:41 pm »
 :scared:  It lives  :scared:
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline serggio

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1702 on: May 25, 2016, 07:49:55 pm »
:scared:  It lives  :scared:
Indeed!
Before criticize manufacturer, may be better think about, what you will do at their place?
If you will make good design, spent a tons of money for realizing your ideas, build a business, and make extremely popular product and then somebody will make 1:1 fakes with your name responsibilities, what you will do then?  :-//   
 

Online Gyro

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1703 on: May 25, 2016, 07:54:05 pm »
I think you have 70 pages of reading to do before you can even suspect that you might have anything new to add!  :palm:
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 
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Offline serggio

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1704 on: May 25, 2016, 08:03:42 pm »
From past read pages I extremely like this one message
Quote
how is it my fault if I'm delivered a product with a fake chip?

As a society, we have forgotten personal accountability and responsibilities.

It's the fast foot companies' fault that I am too fat;

It's MaDonald's fault that my coffee is hotter than I expected;

It's the rich's fault that I am poor;

It's employers' fault that I am jobless;

It's banks' fault that I have to pay my debts;

It's taxpayers' fault that I am driving a beat-up car;

It's policy's fault that I am in jail.

...

At some point, you ARE going to be responsible for who you are and where you are.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1705 on: May 25, 2016, 08:46:47 pm »
Quoting our house troll isn't going to help you. Furthermore all his assertions are just short sighted ramblings.

Take many steps back until you see the big picture here. But let me help you: The big picture says that FTDI's actions cause extra hassle for checking suppliers, testing chips, testing drivers, recalling products from customers, dealing with having the boards reworked, delivery delays, later payments, etc, etc. All this is just extra work you don't get paid or compensated for. If you like to work for free be my guest but I rather pass. I just use a component which isn't lucrative to clone so I know I get the real deal and the end-products installed at customers keep working because nobody messes with the drivers. Nobody really cares what or who is right or wrong!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline serggio

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1706 on: May 25, 2016, 09:15:08 pm »
To be honestly, I don't want unpack this ball of contradictions. Who was troll, who was not. For me this is only some words that have relationship to the real life.
All that I see above real problem this is eyewater and dissatisfaction. That is really have place at any forums. People going here (at forum) for cry over their problem and this threads become extremely popular with huge amount of pages.
The real admiration for some products/ideas/solutions is very short and unpopular.
p.s. I have real experience to be in front of customer and worked at manufacturer side and at solution delivery side. I know how this business work.
All that I said about this thread - this is only my opinion, and nothing more.

If you do not want use FTDi, it is absolutely up to you. You just find way for you in use unpopular for cloning chips, but still not able to say what you would do on FTDI place.

Don't be huffy! Cheers and good night!

 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1707 on: May 25, 2016, 09:40:44 pm »
but still not able to say what you would do on FTDI place.
First of all: I would not kill my customers' products and thereby drag third parties into a conflict between me and another party. Dragging third parties into a conflict makes the outcome wildly unpredictable as FTDI must have noticed by now since their latest drivers no longer have anti counterfeit measures.

Secondly is it common knowledge you can't milk a cow forever so you either have to lower prices and/or come up with a new product so I would have tried to stay ahead by creating new products at lower cost.

Just look at Dyson: they marketed (hyped!) bag-less vacuum cleaners. The technology was well known but never really marketed before. It didn't take long for other manufacturers to come up with bag-less vacuum cleaners and compete on price. No problem for Dyson because they have a whole range of other products lined up. Nowadays you see Dyson hand dryers in almost every public restroom.

All in all the competition coming up with alternatives for succesful products is the way the free market works and in many cases there is very little you can do about it especially if you are not a multi-billion company with thousands of lawyers.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:45:11 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline serggio

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1708 on: May 25, 2016, 10:08:39 pm »
First of all: I would not kill my customers' products and thereby drag third parties into a conflict between me and another party. Dragging third parties into a conflict makes the outcome wildly unpredictable as FTDI must have noticed by now since their latest drivers no longer have anti counterfeit measures.
All it's clear, but what you will do to protect your products? How you will prevent to using your codes on clones?

Quote
Secondly is it common knowledge you can't milk a cow forever so you either have to lower prices and/or come up with a new product so I would have tried to stay ahead by creating new products at lower cost.
That is call real competition. FTDI made first and still make good products for USB bus interface with excellent functionality. Even Cypress with their CY7C65213 that copying FT232R pin to pin do not have UART Rx, Tx signal level inversion, that very useful for engineering design. FTDI have huge amount open documentation in form of AN and TN that useful for engineers and enthusiasts, while Cypress and other have one two documents, and that is all. 

Quote
All in all the competition coming up with alternatives for succesful products is the way the free market works and in many cases there is very little you can do about it especially if you are not a multi-billion company with thousands of lawyers.
Absolutely agree. Competition! Real competition - that is rear alternative solution with full infrastructure, documentation and support. But not stealing alien ideas and cloning their devises under stolen name.
If somebody will try to do same with Apple iPhone, make 1:1 copy with their current iOS version, believe me, next day Apple will do same as FTDI - release new update for turn fake clones to bricks.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 10:11:01 pm by serggio »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1709 on: May 25, 2016, 10:28:16 pm »
First of all: I would not kill my customers' products and thereby drag third parties into a conflict between me and another party. Dragging third parties into a conflict makes the outcome wildly unpredictable as FTDI must have noticed by now since their latest drivers no longer have anti counterfeit measures.
All it's clear, but what you will do to protect your products? How you will prevent to using your codes on clones?
Be clever but also accept that no protection method is unbreakable. At some point your are just frustrating your legitimate customers with copy protection measures (like potting a circuit so it cannot be repaired).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1710 on: May 27, 2016, 03:03:15 pm »
All it's clear, but what you will do to protect your products? How you will prevent to using your codes on clones?

You can display a window or EULA dialog to inform the user that the use of FTDI driver is only legal with FTDI chips. Also, you can pop up a window to tell the user that the device is fake.
Popping up a Window is not that hard, even from kernel space. Showing an EULA before driver installation is also easy, you can create customized callback or even entire installer from a standard Windows inf file.
 

Offline MadDog

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1711 on: June 11, 2016, 10:57:21 am »
How nice!

I have installed Altera Quartus 16.0. The included driver (FTDI) for the USB Blaster caused my PC (Windows 10 x64) to reset my PC after some minutes over and over again.
It took me some hours to find out that the connected USB Blaster clone caused this. It uses a ST32F to simulate a FTDI chip.

I switched back to the driver delivered with Quartus 14.0: Et voila, it works again!

May these FTDI guys burn...
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1712 on: June 11, 2016, 11:10:25 am »
May they burn indeed for not ensuring compatibility with someone elses hack.
 

Offline MadDog

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1713 on: June 11, 2016, 11:37:38 am »
May they burn indeed for not ensuring compatibility with someone elses hack.

I wasn't aware that there is no genuine FTDI used in this device until I opened it (most people don't know this).
So it's ok for you if they crash the PC with all data lost?
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1714 on: June 11, 2016, 11:45:50 am »
So it's ok for you if they crash the PC with all data lost?

I'm certain they're doing it on purpose, I mean, it couldn't possibly be a bug with a third party's unsupported implementation of an undocumented protocol, that just doesn't happen. It's all FTDI's fault!!!!!
 

Online wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1715 on: June 11, 2016, 11:48:06 am »
May they burn indeed for not ensuring compatibility with someone elses hack.

I wasn't aware that there is no genuine FTDI used in this device until I opened it (most people don't know this).
So it's ok for you if they crash the PC with all data lost?
It's your crappy device what crashes it, not FTDI.
 

Offline MadDog

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1716 on: June 11, 2016, 12:03:39 pm »
It's your crappy device what crashes it, not FTDI.

No, it doesnt. The driver software does. But whatever you say...
 

Online wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1717 on: June 11, 2016, 12:14:45 pm »
It's your crappy device what crashes it, not FTDI.

No, it doesnt. The driver software does. But whatever you say...
If the crappy device makes the driver doing something unexpected... That driver wasn't written for or tested with your hack implementation anyway. I guess your USB blaster is a crappy clone too.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 12:20:15 pm by wraper »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1718 on: June 11, 2016, 12:19:21 pm »
It's your crappy device what crashes it, not FTDI.

No, it doesnt. The driver software does. But whatever you say...
If the crappy device makes the driver doing something unexpected... That driver wasn't written for or tested with your hack implementation anyway.
A driver which doesn't handle an unexpected situation properly is written by someone who doesn't know the first thing about programming. Since the old driver works and the new one doesn't it is very likely this behaviour is on purpose.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1719 on: June 11, 2016, 12:24:23 pm »
It's your crappy device what crashes it, not FTDI.

No, it doesnt. The driver software does. But whatever you say...
If the crappy device makes the driver doing something unexpected... That driver wasn't written for or tested with your hack implementation anyway.
Somehow this doesn't happen even with clones of ft232. Now someone gets fake USB blaster with crappily emulated ft232, uses it with genuine software and then blames manufacturer for it behaving weird. I also sometimes use clone devices, but never blame genuine item manufacturer for software not working properly with a fake crap I have.
A driver which doesn't handle an unexpected situation properly is written by someone who doesn't know the first thing about programming. Since the old driver works and the new one doesn't it is very likely this behaviour is on purpose.
 

Offline MadDog

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1720 on: June 11, 2016, 12:42:06 pm »
In my case there is no counterfeit FTDI chip used. The STM32 just simulates the behaviour of the FTDI chip.

Their first driver with counterfeit protection (2014) erased the EEPROM connected to the chip with the PID/VID information. So the OS couldn't longer detect the device.
But this is not possible with the STM32 because of the different implementation. So they choose another way which causes the complete PC to crash.
This already happens if the device is just connected to the PC without using it.

This practice is not nice! I use several FTDI chips in devices which I have developed on job. But I will try to avoid to use any chips from FTDI in the future.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1721 on: June 11, 2016, 12:43:40 pm »
But this is not possible with the STM32 because of the different implementation. So they choose another way which causes the complete PC to crash.

Do they now? Do you have evidence, or are you just jumping to this conclusion because OMG FTDI ARE BAD?

Quote
This practice is not nice!

Nor is yours.
 

Online wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1722 on: June 11, 2016, 12:58:33 pm »
In my case there is no counterfeit FTDI chip used. The STM32 just simulates the behaviour of the FTDI chip.
Which is not a tiny bit different than knowingly using fake chips, even worse. Actually, if fake chip was used, manufacturer could claim they didn't know those were fake. In your case, manufacturer of knowingly made illegal clone of USB blaster and knowingly cloned/emulated FT232 which is illegal too. You are not legally allowed to use FTDI driver with anything else than FTDI ICs in the first place. And you knowingly bought this illegal clone. So how in the end it comes that FTDI is to be blamed for your knowingly bought crap not working properly?
 

Online coppice

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1723 on: June 11, 2016, 01:23:40 pm »
In my case there is no counterfeit FTDI chip used. The STM32 just simulates the behaviour of the FTDI chip.
Which is not a tiny bit different than knowingly using fake chips, even worse. Actually, if fake chip was used, manufacturer could claim they didn't know those were fake. In your case, manufacturer of knowingly made illegal clone of USB blaster and knowingly cloned/emulated FT232 which is illegal too. You are not legally allowed to use FTDI driver with anything else than FTDI ICs in the first place. And you knowingly bought this illegal clone. So how in the end it comes that FTDI is to be blamed for your knowingly bought crap not working properly?
In what way is knowingly emulating a part illegal? The right to most aspects of reverse engineering and emulation for the purposes of compatibility are protected by law. Some aspects of the DMC in the US have tried to prevent such engineering when there is an element of copy protection involved, but that's about the limit of legal protection. Direct copying of someone else's software can get you into copyright trouble. Exactly copying a chip can get you into trouble with the specific copyright protection that exists for masks. Schematics aren't well protected, unless they incorporate patented techniques. Working out how something works, and emulating it without recourse to the internals of the original design, is how much of the electronics industry has always worked.
 

Online wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1724 on: June 11, 2016, 02:01:28 pm »
In what way is knowingly emulating a part illegal? The right to most aspects of reverse engineering and emulation for the purposes of compatibility are protected by law.
Not talking about legality of the hardware side of this this, it already starts to be illegal once you need to use FTDI driver with it. This is exactly the same as for example cloning SEGGER JTAG adapters or Saleae logic analyzers. Yes, software comes for free, as long as you use genuine device...
Quote
Direct copying of someone else's software
In this case inevitably illegally using someone else's software.
Quote
1.2          In this Licence a "Genuine FTDI Component" means an item of hardware that was manufactured for, and sold by, the Licensor or a member of the Licensor's group of companies. It does not include any counterfeit or fake products.

1.3          If you are a manufacturer of a device that includes a Genuine FTDI Component (each a "Device") then you may install the Software onto that device. If you are a seller or distributor of a Device then You may distribute the Software with the Device. If you are a user of a Device then you may install the Software on the Device, or onto a computer system in order to use the Device.

1.4          In each of those cases you may:

1.4.1          install and use the Software for your purposes only; and

1.4.2          only use the Software in conjunction with products based on and/or incorporating a Genuine FTDI Component.

1.5          The Software will not function properly on or with a component that is not a Genuine FTDI Component. Use of the Software as a driver for, or installation of the Software onto,  a component that is not a Genuine FTDI Component, including without limitation counterfeit components, MAY IRRETRIEVABLY DAMAGE THAT COMPONENT.  It is the Licensee's responsibility to make sure that all chips it installs the Software on, or uses the Software as a driver for, are Genuine FTDI Components. If in doubt then contact the Licensor.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 02:10:58 pm by wraper »
 


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