FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??

[wraper]

Unless you have an xray machine you have no way of knowing if it is fake, you can just see that chip with a certain name on the top doesn't work

I think that oscilloscope on usb lines probably would do. As the fake chip might even not have a proper USB hardware, rise times might be quiet different. Also there could be a lot of jitter. Measuring current consumption would tell a lot too.

[Tandy]

FTDI have just killed their own business, here is why.

It doesn't matter what a few makers think but suddenly thousands of consumers are going to end up with a duff device. If it is under warranty they will expect a replacement and if not they are likely to complain and be reluctant to buy that vendors products again.

The vendor is enraged that they have to pick up the tab here and it is clearly FTDI who is at fault fur pulling such a stunt. In order not to get burnt by such a stupid stunt the vendor avoids putting FTDI chips in future products.

Don't forget to switch the lights off when you leave FTDI

[flynnjs]

No more FTDI-cables and chips from now on, I heard prolific and silabs among others has alternatives.

Er, Prolific were up to similar tricks, albeit less destructive. Just bluescreens IIRC.

I think the way forward here might be an open source firmware for a USB equiped microcontroller.

[welterde]

Has anyone figured out what the driver does exactly? Does it do some magic to detect the fake chip, and then set the PID to 0? Or does it attempt to set the PID to 0, and that then fails on a real FTDI chip but works on a clone?

Hope he does a video about it.. perfect chance to use the USB protocol analyzer ;-)

[andersm]

Unless you have an xray machine you have no way of knowing if it is fake, you can just see that chip with a certain name on the top doesn't work

But again, if your assembly house has a habit of slipping in parts sourced outside the supply chain, any part could be a fake. If you don't have the processes in place to either prevent it from happening, or catching it when it does, you're still screwed. Just hoping that the fakes perform close enough to the real thing is a terrible way of doing business.

On another note, I'm surprised the clone makers bothered to emulate the EEPROM functionality. Most products seem to use the default VID/PID.

I think the way forward here might be an open source firmware for a USB equiped microcontroller.

The usual USB vendor ID and driver signing requirements makes this a non-starter.

[flynnjs]

Hahahah, good luck proving cockup vs conspiracy. You did reverse the driver and found evidence of intent right?

I don't need to. They pretty much admitted to doing it willfully on Twitter.
Also, if you read the CMA, it doesn't need "Intent". It can also apply to "recklessness".

[grumpydoc]

Okay, its a good idea to destroy the reputation of a own product to destroy the market of clones. It's just like chemo therapie....
 

Sorry, in what way exactly is this like chemotherapy?

Lightages sums up my feelings well on the subject - I can honestly say that I will not now, knowingly, buy a product which claims to be an FTDI one because I cannot easily know whether I will get the genuine article. If the FTDI driver bricks it I can send it back and get (some of) my money back but why would I risk the hassle. I can see why they did this but it's totally a pyrrhic victory.

Oh and why is everyone assuming that the user would have the option of clicking "ignore" and the driver working anyway - surely you would inform the user "sorry the chip is not genuine" and just refuse to work after that.

OK, the savvy user will go back to an old version but to sabotage the hardware so that no driver will work with it - including the Linux ones - is just plain wrong.

This thread is currently going at ~100 views / minute.

I wonder if anyone from FTDI is following it, because it's the story of how people stopped using FTDI chips.

A new user called FTDI chip has already posted in this thread. FTDI don't care if people stop using clones of their chips.

They popped up and made one post, then disappeared (perhaps wisely).

[uski]

People assume that only hobbyists read and post here.
I'm responsible for the hardware designs of a company that sells hundreds of thousands of units per year.
I weekly see distributors and the reps of various chip manufacturers.

And I can tell you, there is no f***** way I'm going to let any FTDI chip enter our new designs anytime soon.

Why ? Here's why :
- Assume a distributor sells us 100K chips. Turns out they are fake, but we don't notice it right away and we produce boards with them. Remember, counterfeit parts have been found even in military devices, so don't expect normal companies to have 100% sure supply chains !
- A few months later, FTDI updates it driver to brick the devices.
- We start getting RMAs and find out it's because of the FTDI driver

I can tell you our lawyers are going to have lots of fun in court if this is to happen.

FTDI cannot expect people to buy only from their "authorized" distributers. This is a free market.
So I'm not going to take the risk of this happening and I'll switch to another manufacturer. Simple as that.
I have absolutely no way to be absolutely sure I haven't been sold a fake. So I cannot take the risk.

I can also tell you I will send an e-mail tomorrow to our FTDI distributor asking for an explanation of the situation.

I hope this will be a nice example to others companies of what can happen if you engage in that sort of "fighting".

[KPR8]

Hahahah, good luck proving cockup vs conspiracy. You did reverse the driver and found evidence of intent right?

I don't need to. They pretty much admitted to doing it willfully on Twitter.
Also, if you read the CMA, it doesn't need "Intent". It can also apply to "recklessness".

I guess the answer would be: We didn't test with clone XXX true, but guess what? It stopped working, who knew that would happen? Bummer and now all the cheap ass makers are pissed. Better issue a  profit warning coz sales will be down by, oooohh, 100s of units next year

Good luck

[popgruel]

Does anyone have more details on this - which driver versions zero out the PID, which ones don't?

Maybe some USB packet traces using http://wiki.wireshark.org/CaptureSetup/USB, to compare communications with counterfeit and genuine chips?

Thanks

[Rufus]

FTDI have just killed their own business, here is why.

<snip>

The vendor is enraged that they have to pick up the tab here and it is clearly FTDI who is at fault fur pulling such a stunt. In order not to get burnt by such a stupid stunt the vendor avoids putting FTDI chips in future products.

Some of the logic in this thread is astounding. The only vendors going to be burnt by this are the ones that were already avoiding putting genuine FTDI chips in their products.

[KPR8]

I'm responsible for the hardware designs of a company that sells hundreds of thousands of units per year.
I weekly see distributors and the reps of various chip manufacturers.

Seems unlikely

I can tell you our lawyers are going to have lots of fun in court if this is to happen.

Well, they will send you a big bill anyway

I have absolutely no way to be absolutely sure I haven't been sold a fake. So I cannot take the risk.

Erm, buy from FTDI China?

I can also tell you I will send an e-mail tomorrow to our FTDI distributor asking for an explanation of the situation.

Get help with the grammar

Trolley

[krater]

Okay, its a good idea to destroy the reputation of a own product to destroy the market of clones. It's just like chemo therapie....
 

Sorry, in what way exactly is this like chemotherapy?

Thats simple. Destroy a body with poison and hope that the cancer cells die before the rest of the body. Destroy the reputation of a manufacturer to the point never want to buy from it, and hope the clone makers don't are interested again....

Do I mentioned that chemo therapie isn't a really good method to fight cancer ?

[linux-works]

I see a new meme coming out of this:

"it was working yesterday.  hmmm.  maybe the vendor FTDI'd me via a windows update..."



FTDI (verb):
1) to willingly destroy end-user's hardware in an attempt to teach said user a lesson.

[langwadt]

Unless you have an xray machine you have no way of knowing if it is fake, you can just see that chip with a certain name on the top doesn't work

I think that oscilloscope on usb lines probably would do. As the fake chip might even not have a proper USB hardware, rise times might be quiet different. Also there could be a lot of jitter. Measuring current consumption would tell a lot too.

The fakes chip is probably use some kind of usb microcontroller, there will be no difference on the USB lines
Any difference in the current consumption could easily drown in what ever else is on the board, LEDs etc. 

[AlfBaz]

Hmmm, there might be a quick buck in this. I'll have to place an add in tomorrows paper "Has one of your USB devices suddenly stopped working?"

[krater]

Unless you have an xray machine you have no way of knowing if it is fake, you can just see that chip with a certain name on the top doesn't work

I think that oscilloscope on usb lines probably would do. As the fake chip might even not have a proper USB hardware, rise times might be quiet different. Also there could be a lot of jitter. Measuring current consumption would tell a lot too.

The fakes chip is probably use some kind of usb microcontroller, there will be no difference on the USB lines
Any difference in the current consumption could easily drown in what ever else is on the board, LEDs etc.

Maybee we could wieght it. It worked with the chinese wlan equiped flatirons

[linux-works]

"if this ftdi chip weighs as much as a duck ...."

(lol)

[krater]

hey kpr8 !

Do you fear that FTDI can't pay you tomorrow because of lawyer problems ?

[Lightages]

I have read every message here. I have decided, as have others, to not buy anything that is or claims to be an FTDI product. I as an end use have no way of knowing if I am buying a genuine item embedded in a product. Legall, in some countries at least, I am sur ehtta this activity by FTDI is illegal. Do I care about legality? Sometimes, but usually not as the legal system is set up to benefit those who have the most money to lobby the law makers.

Do I care about morality? Yes. Morality to means doing no harm to others if at all possible and doing no harm to any innocent parties in any way. FTDI has stepped over that line. They harm those who are innocent and the guilty parties still get to sell their products. The counterfeiters are definitely in the wrong but effectively destroying the end user's device is just plain wrong. Disable the device driver? No problem. Inform the end user? No problem. You can't punish the end user just because the thieves are in a place you can't punish them. If someone is knowingly using counterfeit parts or items, too bad for them.

But the end point is that FTDI has shot themselves in the foot. Legal and moral issues aside this is a disastrous move. The unwashed masses know nothing of what this really means and have no idea what they can do to fix any problems this might cause them. What will they do? They will do the only thing that is easy to understand. They will avoid all and any FTDI based or claimed products because NO ONE can be sure they will not buy a fake and then have a useless device. This is an example of lawyers being the usual idiots they are. Buy FTDI. I will make sure anything I buy is claimed to not have any FTDI products inside. It is just a matter of practicality, not legal nor moral at this point.

Another pissed off maker, no one's going to care if you don't by another 10 chips..... Blah, lawyers, blah, take my business elsewhere, blah, I want the benefit without rewarding the creators of the IP ....

Fake troll

I won't insult you if you don't insult me. Fake troll? WTF?

[KPR8]

Dont know what you're talking about? Not sure what's going on? Don't let that stop you! Pop down to your local Internet forum and have a 'reckon'

USB hosts don't have anyway to measure current consumption. At the risk of being an idiot I am going to have a 'reckon' that there is a vendor specific command to set the VID and genuine FTDI parts (as approved by Jesus and Steve Jobs) ignore cmds with a VID of 0000

[krater]

"if this ftdi chip weighs as much as a duck ...."

(lol)

"... then a little chineses people is puttet in."

[KPR8]

hey kpr8 !

Do you fear that FTDI can't pay you tomorrow because of lawyer problems ?

I'm cheap, just like a good Chinese clone

I won't insult you if you don't insult me. Fake troll? WTF?

You insult my sense of fair play & justice. That is enough to make you the target of my fearsome trolling powers

Trollster

[krater]

hey kpr8 !

Do you fear that FTDI can't pay you tomorrow because of lawyer problems ?

I'm cheap, just like a good Chinese clone

Trollster

Oh, okay, I understand. FTDI is so down that they can't buy more than you. And I hoped to get a big chinese troll army...

[KPR8]

Y, I just heard the 'makers' over at hackaday are boycotting FTDI and now sales are down by 10, possibly 11 chips this year so they had to fire their marketing dept. Sorry Internet you will have to make do with me

T