Author Topic: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??  (Read 759152 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1725 on: June 11, 2016, 11:45:35 pm »
The driver is made for a special identifier that belongs to an ftdi chip.
 You can impossibly ask ftdi to test their driver with all illegal or cloned chips, that is ludicrous.
Now imagine the scenario where the driver receives malformed data due to an USB issue. When writing a driver you are not done developing software when the driver appears to work. There is a lot more to it!

edit: typo
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 12:13:01 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1726 on: June 11, 2016, 11:51:07 pm »
@Kjelt - bollocks the 4 bytes "belong" to FTDI. Or anyone else has to be "allowed" to use those bytes.
 

Offline timb

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1727 on: June 12, 2016, 12:27:04 am »
I think you have 70 pages of reading to do before you can even suspect that you might have anything new to add!  :palm:

Amen. Dude doesn't even know who Farnell (element14) are, yet thinks he has something to add.

It's not just Farnell, either. Digi-Key, Mouser, etc. have all had counterfeit chips slip into their distribution stream at one point or another. It happens.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1728 on: June 12, 2016, 01:19:39 am »
About Farnell and FTDI, the bloke who claimed receiving counterfeits from them never came back to infirm or confirm it.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1729 on: June 12, 2016, 08:17:30 am »
@Kjelt - bollocks the 4 bytes "belong" to FTDI. Or anyone else has to be "allowed" to use those bytes.
They belong to FTDI, because they pay for them annually to USB-IF. http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/
 

Online coppice

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1730 on: June 12, 2016, 08:58:31 am »
In what way is knowingly emulating a part illegal? The right to most aspects of reverse engineering and emulation for the purposes of compatibility are protected by law.
Not talking about legality of the hardware side of this this, it already starts to be illegal once you need to use FTDI driver with it. This is exactly the same as for example cloning SEGGER JTAG adapters or Saleae logic analyzers. Yes, software comes for free, as long as you use genuine device...
Quote
Direct copying of someone else's software
In this case inevitably illegally using someone else's software.
Quote
1.2          In this Licence a "Genuine FTDI Component" means an item of hardware that was manufactured for, and sold by, the Licensor or a member of the Licensor's group of companies. It does not include any counterfeit or fake products.

1.3          If you are a manufacturer of a device that includes a Genuine FTDI Component (each a "Device") then you may install the Software onto that device. If you are a seller or distributor of a Device then You may distribute the Software with the Device. If you are a user of a Device then you may install the Software on the Device, or onto a computer system in order to use the Device.

1.4          In each of those cases you may:

1.4.1          install and use the Software for your purposes only; and

1.4.2          only use the Software in conjunction with products based on and/or incorporating a Genuine FTDI Component.

1.5          The Software will not function properly on or with a component that is not a Genuine FTDI Component. Use of the Software as a driver for, or installation of the Software onto,  a component that is not a Genuine FTDI Component, including without limitation counterfeit components, MAY IRRETRIEVABLY DAMAGE THAT COMPONENT.  It is the Licensee's responsibility to make sure that all chips it installs the Software on, or uses the Software as a driver for, are Genuine FTDI Components. If in doubt then contact the Licensor.
Have you really read and thought about how ridiculous those conditions are? Consider a typical test setup with a mix of hardware. There may be some genuine FTDI and some FTDI emulating devices plugged in. The FTDI drivers are pulled in automatically, no questions asked. You don't really have a choice about which drivers are handling any particular piece of hardware. Unless you are seriously interested in finding out, you wouldn't even notice.

Just because someone writes stuff into an "agreement" doesn't mean courts won't have a good laugh about it. I wonder if there has ever been a court case to test this type of ludicrous attempt to restrict the use of drivers? Especially the part where FTDI cause malicious damage if they feel like it.

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1731 on: June 12, 2016, 09:19:52 am »
@Kjelt - bollocks the 4 bytes "belong" to FTDI. Or anyone else has to be "allowed" to use those bytes.
They belong to FTDI, because they pay for them annually to USB-IF. http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/
Exactly, if you use a standard, you need to play by the rules of the standard. If you use another vendors cheap device that offends the rules, don,t complain about the original vendors drivers, complain by the vendor that sold you cheap illegal crap. Complain by customs that allowed that illegal device to be imported at the first place, anywhere but those who do try to earn an honest living.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1732 on: June 12, 2016, 10:10:42 am »
@Kjelt - bollocks the 4 bytes "belong" to FTDI. Or anyone else has to be "allowed" to use those bytes.
They belong to FTDI, because they pay for them annually to USB-IF.  http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/
Yes. Did you know I own 4 bytes too? 0x4D616362

You may not know it, but I drew up a contract and set up a standards org called the Macb Benevolent Fund. I won't go into all the legal small print and required standards of use, but ultimately anyone who quotes those 4 ASCII bytes in any internet posting is required to pay me $10,000 per year.  :-DD
 

Online coppice

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1733 on: June 12, 2016, 10:14:42 am »
Yes. Did you know I own 4 bytes too? 0x4D616362
Are you sure you're not ripping off Shakespeare?
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1734 on: June 12, 2016, 10:17:33 am »
And here we go into the puerile arguments again.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1735 on: June 12, 2016, 10:22:30 am »
Yes. Did you know I own 4 bytes too? 0x4D616362
Are you sure you're not ripping off Shakespeare?
I was worried about that but thankfully my highly paid legal specialists Screwem, Goode & Hart have advised me the copyright on Shakespeare's works expired centuries ago.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1736 on: June 12, 2016, 10:28:22 am »
@Kjelt - bollocks the 4 bytes "belong" to FTDI. Or anyone else has to be "allowed" to use those bytes.
They belong to FTDI, because they pay for them annually to USB-IF.  http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/
Yes. Did you know I own 4 bytes too? 0x4D616362

You may not know it, but I drew up a contract and set up a standards org called the Macb Benevolent Fund. I won't go into all the legal small print and required standards of use, but ultimately anyone who quotes those 4 ASCII bytes in any internet posting is required to pay me $10,000 per year.  :-DD
Sure, then use them with your own interface, write your own driver and certify it for your own OS.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1737 on: June 13, 2016, 01:17:32 am »
@Kjelt - bollocks the 4 bytes "belong" to FTDI. Or anyone else has to be "allowed" to use those bytes.
They belong to FTDI, because they pay for them annually to USB-IF.  http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/
Yes. Did you know I own 4 bytes too? 0x4D616362

You may not know it, but I drew up a contract and set up a standards org called the Macb Benevolent Fund. I won't go into all the legal small print and required standards of use, but ultimately anyone who quotes those 4 ASCII bytes in any internet posting is required to pay me $10,000 per year.  :-DD
Sure, then use them with your own interface, write your own driver and certify it for your own OS.
No. Those terms are not in my contract. The one you didn't know about or agree to be installed but was anyway when you upgraded to Windows 10.

You still owe me $10,000.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1738 on: June 13, 2016, 02:00:25 am »
Ok you made your point about byte ownership.

It's been a while so what about the older discussion, the one as to whether FTDI acted illegally or criminally in any legal jurisdiction.
I am pretty certain there are no criminal charges pending, but tell me if I am wrong.
I haven't heard of any civil actions against FTDI, anyone heard any word on this?

Can I conclude that if there are no successful actions against FTDI that AFAWK they acted legally then?




 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1739 on: June 13, 2016, 11:34:33 am »
Ok you made your point about byte ownership.

It's been a while so what about the older discussion, the one as to whether FTDI acted illegally or criminally in any legal jurisdiction.
I am pretty certain there are no criminal charges pending, but tell me if I am wrong.
I haven't heard of any civil actions against FTDI, anyone heard any word on this?
Can I conclude that if there are no successful actions against FTDI that AFAWK they acted legally then?
If you take legal action the benefits need to larger than the expenses. The thing is that nobody cares and just uses different chips.
If you drive/walk through a red traffic light you are doing something illegal yet you'll find you can get away with it without getting a fine every day. Does that make driving/walking through a red traffic light legal?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1740 on: June 13, 2016, 12:21:52 pm »
Perhaps it was wrong (ethically) and not the wisest decision publicity wise, but not illegal IMO.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1741 on: June 13, 2016, 12:23:21 pm »
IDK about the Netherlands but in AU if you report a crime to the police they have a duty to investigate it. So no direct out of pocket expenses.
I really doubt there was any ever a crime committed but am waiting to be proven wrong.

If you take legal action the benefits need to larger than the expenses. The thing is that nobody cares and just uses different chips.
If you drive/walk through a red traffic light you are doing something illegal yet you'll find you can get away with it without getting a fine every day. Does that make driving/walking through a red traffic light legal?
The law in this case is hardly as clear as for a red light.

This episode hasn't and probably will not be tested in court, and that is probably because FTDI can make a good case, resting on the fact that the driver is only meant to work with FTDI chips. As we all know connecting software with unknown hardware gives unspecified behaviour.

So I think calling FTDIs actions 'illegal' in this case is too strong.



 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1742 on: June 13, 2016, 12:55:14 pm »
I don't care what you think because you are not a judge in a court  ;)

Ofcourse I could file a police report but putting the proof together in an unambiguous way is going to take me at least a day if not more. You can't go to the police or a lawyer and only pointing a finger. You need to have credible proof to back your story.

But it is not worth the hassle especially since most other USB-UART converters work out of the box with Windows 10.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 01:01:06 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline madires

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1743 on: June 13, 2016, 01:11:23 pm »
So I think calling FTDIs actions 'illegal' in this case is too strong.

For Germany FTDI might want to read StGB ยง303a and $303b about computer sabotage. Bricking chips by modifying the IDs, sending "non genuine ..." instead of the original data or crashing PCs on purpose is an offence. And no, an EULA allowing that doesn't work either. 
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1744 on: June 13, 2016, 01:18:10 pm »
If you can't proof they did it on purpose with the evidence to back it up, you have no case.
Besides that, no judge will convict a company that "accidently" broke illegal cloned devices from a company that breached their IP in the first place,
AND the company that made the clones will not file a lawsuit in the first place because they were wrong to start with and don't care about their "customers" they sold their crap to.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1745 on: June 13, 2016, 02:58:09 pm »
If you can't proof they did it on purpose with the evidence to back it up, you have no case.
Besides that, no judge will convict a company that "accidently" broke illegal cloned devices from a company that breached their IP in the first place,
AND the company that made the clones will not file a lawsuit in the first place because they were wrong to start with and don't care about their "customers" they sold their crap to.
Those are your assumptions. When it comes to legal matters you better make sure you have read and understood the application (=study similar cases) of the laws before making bold statements.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1746 on: June 13, 2016, 04:35:57 pm »
Those are your assumptions. When it comes to legal matters you better make sure you have read and understood the application (=study similar cases) of the laws before making bold statements.
As you did and you are now going to present your legal expertise findings to this forum..... ?
 

Offline NewKleer

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1747 on: July 06, 2016, 04:17:24 am »
So, a lot of these issues were due to the chance of getting a counterfeit chip... well what if you only purchased genuine chips from Mouser, that to your dismay, respond with the "NON GENUINE DEVICE FOUND!" response?! I was "lucky" enough to get these! (date code 1550-C D5657501 if it matters),  FTDI's response to mouser (seems to be a standard one):

Quote
"As a consequence of the R chip device success, it has become necessary to extend the chip identifier string by an extra bit to allow for the higher volumes. In completing this update, the driver also required a change to accommodate the revised string length. This driver fix has now been implemented in version 2.12.16.
 
http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%20v2.12.16%20WHQL%20Certified.zip
 
We acknowledge that driver updates may not be appropriate or possible in some cases and would like to take this opportunity to allow customers to return affected devices under RMA to be replaced."

So yes, fantastic, genuine chips (with certain driver versions) come up as counterfeit. Yes, its confirmed that the latest driver works (but now i need to inform all customers with older drivers to update to the latest), but this is just another nail in the coffin for FTDI. Hopefully the chips work fine in Windows XP (with old v2.08 or whatever drivers)/Android.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 12:28:01 am by NewKleer »
 

Offline BradC

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1748 on: July 06, 2016, 09:24:36 am »
Oh that is bad. Really bad. I could stomach the other stuff, but making your genuine chips incompatible with existing drivers is not on. They should have been a new revision or stepping and *required* a new driver update rather than just silently not working. That is unforgivable.
 

Offline TJ232

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Re: FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??
« Reply #1749 on: July 06, 2016, 09:52:32 am »
There were some rumours for a while but if this new one will be also confirmed then...another big nail sealing tight the FTDI coffin.

Have you read the book "How to f.ck a good bussines in 5 easy steps"? Me neither but FTDI Management for sure has done a deep study based on that book. They might be some of the authors :-DD


 
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