Author Topic: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBC) ?  (Read 7649 times)

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Offline roli_bark

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Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBC) ?
« on: June 15, 2013, 08:52:37 am »
Are Hakko 951/203 based on RF Heating (like Metcal/JBC) ?
The official site doesn't have an explicit mention of this.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 12:54:45 pm by roli_bark »
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 12:41:43 pm »
JBC is not RF

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2013, 03:39:30 pm »
I think RF is better (as very fast adaptation for a sudden large Thermal load).
But I maybe wrong.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2013, 05:27:50 pm »
You are ;D  JBC is as good or better than the Metcal on thermal response. It is because the heater element is also the thermocouple that senses the temperature so the control can be very aggressive.

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 10:45:08 am »
If Hakko isn't an RF based iron,  can/do you know what method it is using,  and how it ranks among its top competitors ?
Thanks,

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Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 04:17:20 pm »
This performance comparison is from JBC but it is all I could find


Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 04:30:15 pm »
9 Secs differential to reach steady state. Interesting.
How important is that ?
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 04:52:51 pm »
I am not saying the 951 is bad, I am just trying to answer your questions.

The JBC sleeps at 150 (adjustable temp and dwell untill sleep) so it only takes about 3 seconds to get to temp. That means the iron is up to temp by the time you grab your solder and get to the joint. If the Hakko slept it would take about 9 seconds to get to temp meaning you would have to wait.  The sleep mode gives longer tip life if you are not production soldering.
IF you are production soldering you almost get 5 joints with the JBC in the same time as 4 joints with the Hakko.

Again, not saying the Hakko is not a good iron :D

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 05:46:11 pm »
This looks interesting.
It looks like with [951] Hakko you can't solder more than 4 joints within about ~ 30 Secs [without dropping the Temp. too low], and that the AVERAGE tip temperature (while soldering these 4 joints) hovers around ~280... this looks kind'a weird to me.

[ given that the optimal soldering Temp. for a typical joint is in a range of about ~ 300 to 350 ]
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 06:19:25 pm »
All soldering irons droop when contacting a joint, it is still above the melting temp of the solder.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2013, 07:29:02 pm »
It has a sleep function, goes down to 200C. Returns to full heat in much less than 9 seconds. I can do large PCB pads quickly with it, certainly more than 4 joints per 30 seconds.

The FX-951 specifies power consumption at 75W.

The JBC CD-B controllers talk about 130W peak. Monitoring mains power input during warm up I have seen it pull 180W.

The thermal mass of the JBC cartridges is very low. I can't see how it could realistically be made smaller.

The low thermal mass, huge power, and well integrated thermocouple is what makes them work so well.

Can you monitor consumption of your FX-951 during warm up?
 

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 05:38:32 am »
The JBC CD-B controllers talk about 130W peak. Monitoring mains power input during warm up I have seen it pull 180W.

The thermal mass of the JBC cartridges is very low
The low thermal mass, huge power,...
Logic says, that by definition, this [huge power] should degrade Tips life expectancy, doesn't it ?
 

Offline digsys

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 05:52:01 am »
Quote from: roli_bark
  Logic says, that by definition, this [huge power] should degrade Tips life expectancy, doesn't it ? 
Ahhhhh, that's what you may think, but it's not how it works. Power means - that is what is available to try to keep the TIP mass at
the SET Temperature ! Newer models have a Power meter which shows exactly how much Power you are using. AT idle it sits at 5-10%
The HD models can deliver 250W+, and on some of our big-ass tips, they frequently go over 200W to maintain that Temperature.
On cheaper / less regulated Irons, you HAVE to increase the Temperature to be able to sustain a continual solder flow and THAT is
what kills Tips quicker. IOW, I can set my Temperature to precisely 310o and irrespective of what Tip or mass I solder, the station will
deliver enough power to hold it there. The Tips last a heck of a lot longer.
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 07:16:11 am »
On cheaper / less regulated Irons, you HAVE to increase the Temperature to be able to sustain a continual solder flow and THAT is what kills Tips quicker. ... I can set ... Temperature to precisely 310o and irrespective of what Tip or mass I solder, the station will deliver enough power to hold it there. The Tips last a heck of a lot longer.
Thanks for this info.
And how would you categorize the Metcal's/JBL's/Hakko's in that regard ?
 

Offline digsys

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 09:33:33 am »
Quote from: roli_bark
  And how would you categorize the Metcal's/JBL's/Hakko's in that regard ? 
The Metcals are definitely on par with JBCs. I've had one (my last tech wanted it) but I never found it as "refined" as the JBC, plus
it didn't have anywhere near the #options. The range of tips alone is incredible. I spend many $1,000s on solder stations.
I also have Hakko stuff (Solder stations, hot-air and desolder stations), and they are definitely FINE !!
Up to that point where you want to cross-over, I chose Hakko over Weller (who have gone downhill) and most others.
BUT .. *IF* you want the best, or have demanding work (ie Soldering SMDs on 8oz Copper mixed with 30A terminals), or have precision work
etc ... there's no contest IMO. I use(d) and own all 3.
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 11:24:37 am »
Here is an example I did at only 260C with a huge tip

Offline digsys

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 12:51:58 pm »
Nice demo, but how the heck are you going to solder that module into a PCB now ??? :-)
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Offline robrenz

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 12:53:56 pm »
They are self standing units that will get a heat sink applied to the resistors. No circuit board involved.

Offline Circuitous

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 12:57:27 pm »
I have a pair of Hakko 951's with a variety of tips.  I liked them in general.
But, then I saw Dave and Rob's videos and ended up with JBCs
  • General station JBC DIT-1B
  • Compact Microtweezer Station JBC CP-1C

I love the JBC units.  The DIT-1B can solder large connections (like 8Ga stranded wire) with even a modest size tip.  It's also easy to change tips on the DIT-1B on the fly.
The 951s are now just sitting on the shelf... no plans to use them again.
  To quote Obi-Wan: "They're for sale if you want them."

Offline Rufus

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 03:37:49 pm »
Logic says, that by definition, this [huge power] should degrade Tips life expectancy, doesn't it ?

High temperature reduces life, high power just means it gets to temperature quicker.

Getting to temperature quicker means you don't have to wait for it to warm up which means you can afford to 'park' the iron at a lower temperature. More power means you can reduce the average temperature the tip experiences and increase its life.

High power and fast response also means you can reduce the tip soldering temperature because it dips less while soldering. That also improves tip life and reduces stress on what you are soldering.

I don't think the JBC tip temperature control is actually very precise. It is only displayed and set with 5C resolution and I am pretty sure the display lies a bit. The fast response means it is a bit 'jumpy' and I think the way the thermocouple is integrated results in noisy temperature measurement. It doesn't really matter. Holding the tip temperature within say 20C while soldering is more important than holding it within 1C when it isn't doing anything.
 

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 04:14:47 pm »
I have a pair of Hakko 951's with a variety of tips.  I liked them in general.
But, then I saw Dave and Rob's videos and ended up with JBCs
...
The 951s are now just sitting on the shelf... no plans to use them again.
Can you elaborate what you didn't like about the 951's [compared to the JBL] ?
 

Offline Circuitous

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBL) ?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 04:29:07 pm »
The 951 is pretty good, but here are some things:
 - 951 takes longer to get to initial temp
 - harder to change tips, particularly when it's hot
 - On the 951 I have to use a much larger tip for larger (more heat dissipative) items
 - seems like I don't have any issues with thermal capacity on the JBC

Example on the thermal characteristics:  soldering banana plugs and other large items required using a larger tip and a lot more heating time on the 951.  With the JBC it's no problem at all.  IIRC, I think Dave and Rob's videos show some of this.

On the JBC, I can use a smaller tip, it comes to temp from sleep in the time it takes to pick up the iron and move to position.
Also, I like the JBC tweezers... really nice for SMD work.

Don't get me wrong, I think the 951 is a nice unit, and it's a lot less expensive.  But, if you have the choice get the JBC.
I have two 951s, as I found I often needed a little bigger tip to solder some component when assembling a board, so rather than remove a hot tip, put in a new tip and then wait, I had two irons running.  With the JBC I don't have to do that.  With the JBC one tip has been enough for soldering small and most large components on a board, and it's easy to change tips while it's hot.

Had I known 2 years ago what I know now, I would have just bought the JBC.


 

Offline roli_bark

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBC) ?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2013, 06:08:51 pm »
JBC is the easiest to handle/change. You simply stick the tip into a hole with metal lips,  push down,  and pull out. The tip stays in the hole.

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Offline Circuitous

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBC) ?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2013, 06:13:02 pm »
Having used both, I agree the JBC is a lot easier.  On the 951 you have to squeeze the little plastic clips and pull out the grip from the handle, while the iron is hot... not my favorite approach

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Are Hakko 951/203 RF Heating based (alike Metcal/JBC) ?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2013, 09:49:22 pm »
With the Metcals you dont even have to push in, you just pull it out. Cept you have to grab it by hand with the rubber pad they include instead of having the lip on the housing to pull it out with.
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