Author Topic: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison  (Read 49699 times)

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Offline BravoV

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Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« on: May 08, 2013, 09:36:17 am »
By curiousity I bought two Hakko 936 knock off solder tips locally and just want to share the details compared to genuine article. These fakes are just about 1 or 2 dollars each, with one is labeled as "Hakko" while the other one using "Kaisi"  :P .

Attached comparison shots with my spare genuine Hakko chisel tip type 900M-T-3.2D.

01. Plastic Container.jpg
To be honest, if the fake one was using the same color background pattern, I think it will be quite difficult to tell. Plastic materials are practically identical.

02. Laser Engraving.jpg
The genuine has the yellowish/brownish tarnish around the laser engraved texts, not sure why is that ?  :-//

03. Inner View.jpg
Genuine on the top with shiny and smooth untarnished copper surface inside, while the the middle one although using copper but has a rough surface finish, and very poor hole alignment  :-- , and the bottom  "Kaisi", I don't think it has copper at all.  :palm:
Both fakes are a bit loose when sliding into the ceramic heater, while the genuine is tight fit.

Although I didn't make any detail measurement, when comparing them, its just "feel" the temperature recovery is much-much better at the genuine one, not sure, maybe placebo effect ?  :-//

« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 06:35:35 am by BravoV »
 

Offline flolic

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 09:47:03 am »

Although I didn't make any detail measurement, when comparing them, its just "feel" the temperature recovery is much-much better at the genuine one, not sure, maybe placebo effect ?  :-//

It's not placebo, it's real. Tight fit of original ones and probably better base material (pure copper) makes all the difference. I have dozen fake ones and few originals, fake ones collect dust now... Difference is substantial.
 

Offline TorqueRanger

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 10:19:20 am »
I picked up a new Hakko iron from ebay that was suppose to be oem but in fact I do believe that it's a fake but a really good fake.. But anyways the tip was so fake and was very loose and never seem to get good contact and when I bought a single real hakko tip the difference was night and day for me..
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 07:58:27 am »
Thanks for the confirmation ! Look like these two fakes probably will never touch my solder anymore.

I guess the loose contact with bigger diameter is intentional, probably for them to be able to fit into those fake ceramic heater which has higher tolerance on it's diameter.

@TorqueRanger, if you have a 936 clone, suggesting to replace the ceramic heater with original one, they have large differences especially at the ceramic outer diameter, I have one of this knock off heater too, if I have a time, I will take a photos comparing between them.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 08:12:58 am by BravoV »
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 10:39:27 am »
I bought a bunch of hakko tips off ebay, and (opened one of each) the lot of ~130 tips (I think, with packaging, they occupy about .5 ft^3 in total), the ones I opened perform similarly (that I noticed) to the single one I got with my 936.

At less than 100$ for the lot, disposable (basically) tips!
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 11:55:35 am »
I bought a bunch of hakko tips off ebay, and (opened one of each) the lot of ~130 tips (I think, with packaging, they occupy about .5 ft^3 in total), the ones I opened perform similarly (that I noticed) to the single one I got with my 936.

At less than 100$ for the lot, disposable (basically) tips!

Its the performance of thermal recovery of the solder tip that matter, not just a hot tip.

Is your 936 a genuine Hakko ? Even if you do, you only have one genuine tip that probably has been aged for a very long time that probably its now loose, and has a bad contact to the ceramic heater. I doubt you still remember how it feels like to use a tight fit genuine solder tip on a true Hakko ceramic heater maybe ? Again, assuming you're using genuine Hakko.

Yes, I have those fake 936 solder handle which cost only $2 with a complete handle, tip, cable and connector that is ready to use  ::). And after an upgrade with an original Hakko ceramic heater and genuine tip, its like night and day. I use this knock off handle with the original part upgrade as an spare handle when I have to switch between two different tips on a soldering job. Yeah, quite a bit awkward, but its much better than having to wait for the tip to cool down, dismantle it and install the another tip on a single handle configuration.

If I have time, I will post a photos of comparison between the fake vs genuine 936 ceramic heaters.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 12:02:32 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 12:11:29 pm »
it's genuine, bought from an authorized dealer in Canada. it also hasn't seen much use since it was replaced early (maybe a couple dozen hours total) on it's lifetime with a metcal. my metcal has 100s, probably 1000x more hours than my 936.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 04:30:00 pm »
Ah .. Metcal, thats a totally different league. Yes, I've experienced using it before at friend's lab, its awesome.  :-+

I guess you must be so spoiled with the Metcal's performance for so long, that you just can't feel the difference anymore between the good and poor 936's grade soldering station.  ^-^

But seriously, even on a genuine tip, those uncoated pure copper inside will be corroded through time (very long time though), and gets loosen and forming larger gap from the heating ceramic element, that made even new fake tip will probably performs similar as the very old used genuine tip.

My old genuine tip which I used intensively throughout for years has a darker surface and a bit of micro flaking surface inside, not smooth and shiny anymore like the new one as above photo.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:42:21 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 03:57:26 am »
Where's a good place to buy legit hakko 900M / T18 tips for a realistic price internationally?

(I just bought a FX888)
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 09:50:42 am »
Just avoid dodgy fleamarkets like ebay or aliexpress for this kind of solder tips, its too risky. Only puchase from reputable online store or distributors, and for sure genuine tip price even the cheapest one probably above $5-7 per piece.

The temperature recovery/regulation differences when using a genuine handle which has also a genuine ceramic heating element inside coupled with a genuine tip vs fake tip is really-really significant.

I see at lots of people, the idea of using cheap large quantity fake tips like thinking if they're acting up, just throw them away and replace with the new one is flaw imo, and totally missed the point of original purpose of having a good temperature regulated soldering station, better get a cheap non regulated plain vanilla soldering iron.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 10:24:02 am by BravoV »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 11:08:30 am »
Just avoid dodgy fleamarkets like ebay or aliexpress for this kind of solder tips, its too risky. Only puchase from reputable online store or distributors, and for sure genuine tip price even the cheapest one probably above $5-7 per piece.

The legit stores around here all want $19-24 each for them, hence my desire to find somewhere else.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 11:29:54 am »
Here locally from authorised Hakko distributor (too bad no online store though  :-\ ) for 900M-T series ranging from cheapest about $8.5 like the popular chisel tip as above photo, up to about $19 for those weird shaped tip like 900M-T-1C.

Offline Psi

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 11:54:28 am »
Found somewhere locally that has them for $13.8 + gst which is a little better.
http://www.tradetech.co.nz/shop/Tools+Cleaning+Products++Solder+Solutions/Hakko+Soldering+Iron+Tips/HAKTIP22.html

Anyone got a recommendation for a good tip for general 0805 SMD and a little tqfp/qfn drag soldering.
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Offline saturation

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 05:33:41 pm »
Thanks for making these, it should help many folks understand what you get for 5-20x the price of a clone versus a true Hakko.  The fake tips typically go for $1-2 each whereas real Hakko tips now sell between $5-20 each, the more obscure the shape, the more costly it is.

The real problem is paying the true Hakko price for a counterfeit tip, so be careful where you buy them.  If you knowingly buy a copy tip for $1-2 its not so much a loss if it lasts for a few projects or you rarely use that particular shape, however beware that fake tips could damage a true Hakko ceramic heater, which is $20 expense; original tips last a long time, at least with old Pb-Sn solder.

If you check the archives, you'll find an old post of mine with links to the patents for the unique alloy Hakko uses in its tips.  This provides the temperature conductivity and longevity expected of the tip; its often why copies of the 936 mention it can use genuine tips and heaters.

One can't tell much about the alloy looking at the photos but 3 things are important:

The fit to the heater must be perfect to provide maximum conductivity without causing the tip to tighten around the ceramic so much it cannot be removed; also if the tolerance is too small or the alloy causes too much expansion, the tip could expand, crack and permanently damage the heater ceramic.

The middle tip has an asymmetrical hole.  This is not acceptable; it will cause uneven heating, heating the thin area around 4 o-clock in the photo faster than the rest of the tip.  It will also wear away faster on the thinner side, which in a problem since the base of the tip doesn't really get used in soldering; its there to only conduct heat.

Finally, there appears to be a small gap or crack in the middle tip, at about 4 o-clock.  If so, this section may likely prematurely wear from oxidation and eat into the copper layer.  If solder were to penetrate here, it would wear even faster.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 05:37:04 pm by saturation »
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Offline T4P

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 07:25:25 pm »
Just be careful with using real heaters with fake stations, most are designed for thermocouple sensors and not PTC sensors in the original 936s (go bonkers or maybe not even work at all)
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 09:24:21 pm »
Just avoid dodgy fleamarkets like ebay or aliexpress for this kind of solder tips, its too risky. Only puchase from reputable online store or distributors, and for sure genuine tip price even the cheapest one probably above $5-7 per piece.

The legit stores around here all want $19-24 each for them, hence my desire to find somewhere else.

We usually buy ours from WES Components in Sydney.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 11:29:07 pm »
Any idea how much they charge? (There's a login/pass needed for their prices.)
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 12:36:37 am »
Anyone got a recommendation for a good tip for general 0805 SMD and a little tqfp/qfn drag soldering.

Most people I've seen around when it comes to drag soldering at the xQFP tiny pitch pins have different preferences. Like Dave's video on SMD soldering tutorial, his prefers the thin and sharp oval tips like 900M-T-2C.

My choice is 900M-T-K blade style, since the sharp & long blade part is much better for dragging across the pins while allow the solder to flow and spread evenly across many pins while dragging in a single swipe compared to narrower tip, and the very-very sharp pointy tip imo is almost unbeatable when it comes to clear out bridges among xQFP pins.  :-+

Btw, another interesting fact that among 900M-Txx tips series, the 900M-T-K is the most efficient when it comes to heat transfer compared to others with that + 30 C delta compared to the 0 C reference tip for adjustment.

My own observation and experience, this blade T-K is the most versatile and has the fastest thermal recovery and regulation. Marked the red boxed on the temp delta compared to 0 C reference tip.





@Saturation,

My pleasure, glad this helps.

Mind point out which old is post that ? The forum's search results sucks while with your high post count, going through yours one by one is way too much.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 02:37:01 am by BravoV »
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 12:46:43 am »
Any idea how much they charge? (There's a login/pass needed for their prices.)

$10 to $15 + GST on average.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 02:23:31 am »
Just be careful with using real heaters with fake stations, most are designed for thermocouple sensors and not PTC sensors in the original 936s (go bonkers or maybe not even work at all)

Of course, my 936 was made probably nearby your neighborhood.  >:D

While ago visited a cheap electronic service shop and had experienced Atten, Quick and "Huakko"  :palm: 936 clone, it feels like using fake semiconductor in your circuit.

Offline Psi

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 03:45:52 am »
Speaking of irons, my old DSE T2250 station has a broken plastic bit.

I just bought a new fx888 but would like to fix this since multiple irons are always handy.
Does anyone know of any spare parts that would fit the T2250 iron.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 03:49:21 am by Psi »
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 06:21:36 am »
Does anyone know of any spare parts that would fit the T2250 iron.

Maybe Aoyue spare parts fit:

www.ebay.com/itm/360641879460 (but horrible shipping costs)

The complete B001 or B004 handle might work, too.
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Offline Psi

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 08:01:01 am »
Maybe Aoyue spare parts fit:

Unfortunately not, i've got an Aoyue and they're a different thread.

I plan to try the Hakko equivalent part when my FX888 arrives but i'm pretty sure it's different too.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 08:02:44 am by Psi »
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Offline saturation

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 10:40:54 am »
Sure, here it is:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ebay-soldering-tips-advice/msg170618/#msg170618

If anyone has a used true Hakko tip that you'll discard soon [ mine are doing very well over 5 years old and still with barely any wear] and one of the clone tips they wouldn't mind sacrificing, if you make a coronal or sagittal cut of the tip to expose the interior metal to show how its construction varies for the whole length of the tip, as well as the thicknesses of the metals used.  You'll need a dremel tool and a fine emery wheel to make a thin slice.   

Details:
http://www.tequipment.net/HakkoLeadCompatible.html

How to, planes of a cut:




@Saturation,

My pleasure, glad this helps.

Mind point out which old is post that ? The forum's search results sucks while with your high post count, going through yours one by one is way too much.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 10:46:38 am by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Genuine vs fake Hakko solder tip comparison
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2013, 02:44:07 am »
Thanks for the link, impressive documents, this might take a while for me as average Joe to digest these metallurgy, high temp metal chemistry, thermodynamic, mechanical engineering, manufacturing technique and etc, damn, tons of topics involved in there.   :P

...............[ mine are doing very well over 5 years old and still with barely any wear]........

Just curious what are you using for tip handling/cleaner in normal soldering usage ?

Same here on my tip's wear, and I think its almost 4 years now since I switched from water wetted sponge tip cleaner to dry coil wires Hakko 599B, and once in a while when black roasted flux residues started to grow at the tip, a single dip in the grey paste Hakko tip cleaner and wipe it clean at the coil wires simply turns the tip like like new again.

Although not intensively monitored, I reckoned when using dry tip cleaner is somehow decelerate tip's wear better than using wet sponge, whats your experience ?


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