Author Topic: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)  (Read 8407 times)

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Offline Xena E

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2024, 04:40:26 pm »
Quote from: aixun
Capacitance Sensing Microsecond-Level Reaction

 :-DD

What are you laughing at?

I've got Capacitance Sensing Microsecond-Level Reaction on my shoe shine machine.

My electric tooth brush has also has Capacitance Sensing Microsecond-Level Reaction.

Who's got the time to wait for a Capacitance Sensing Millisecond-Level Reaction to switch it on?

I don't know how the world has ever managed before Capacitance Sensing Microsecond-Level Reaction on their automatic soldering tip cleaner?

Oh yeah, they used to use a freakin' sponge!

you can wipe it on a dry paper towel too, it works. you need to be quick so it does not burn. But I like that you get a fresh area every time. It actually gets very clean.


if its crudded up you can rub it on a piece of dry wood, which is somewhat more abrasive

Paper towel is very good, it also costs alot less than a JBC tip cleaner

(Actually I use my jeans, ... but don't forget if you're wearing a skirt or shorts instead though  :scared:  ).

Regards,
Xena.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2024, 07:50:37 pm »
you should try them instead of just thinking you need some kind of apparatus to do everything because they need an accessory to sell.
 

Offline diggerTopic starter

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2024, 07:56:12 pm »
or, you know, instead of making assumptions about what others have tried, you could try to stay on topic. lol

i think i've tried most common tip cleaning products (besides stainless wool), and fwiw, my favorite manual method is brass wool.
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2024, 09:15:54 pm »
BTW you know if you make some complicated machine you need a different one every time you switch solder types?

There is a reason its not popular


Have a good look with a magnifier on whatever fixture you even use to hold a brass sponge. Unless you give it a deep clean, there is a good chance you can contaminate your fresh soldering iron tip with the wrong kind of solder. They are filthy. Procedurally you don't even want to use the same solder stand, because its contaminated with tons of tiny little solder globules that get stuck all over it, and fall off randomly.

Using wipes, or a sponge in a tray, that is easy, cheap and effective, plus it has a low chance of contamination. Who the hell knows what is inside of some "port" that you stick a iron into?

This is one of those things that could lead to a failure but gives everyone a sense of professionalism. Likely to cause havok if it shows up in a factory or serious lab. Professional engineers are very wary of bad solder joints, their a huge freaking deal. Its the difference between being allowed to use your own creations for serious work to being relagated to hiring companies to do everything for you to ensure 'quality', after a quality/safety review gets a bad vibe from your complications.


Alot of people here did important things (either for ensuring the success of a company reputation/quality wise, or even safety) and that is why people are suggesting you stay away from contraptions like this that mess with a age old proven soldering technique.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 09:24:27 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline diggerTopic starter

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2024, 09:45:03 pm »
some complicated machine
the machine does not seem complicated

Who the hell knows what is inside of some "port" that you stick a iron into?
in my workspace, as the sole user of the device, i'd have a fair idea.

the risk of cross-contamination applies to anything that can harbor solder... brass wool, used soldering iron tips, existing solder joints of unknown composition, etc. there's nothing inherently more risky about a mechanized tip cleaner.

is the solution not simple? if in doubt, remove the solder from the joint, clean your iron tip, and apply fresh solder. do that a couple more times until your paranoia is quenched. or you could only do new work (no rework).

in any case, thanks for the cross-contamination PSA, but i hope we can continue on to automatic tip cleaners from here
 
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Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2024, 10:59:46 pm »
my favorite manual method is brass wool.

I've been using steel wool for the past seven or eight years or so, I initially wasn't sure because the manufacturer described it as 'more aggressive' but, I don't do production volumes, and so for general use, I've not noticed any premature tip wearing.

But perhaps the high-speed automatic cleaners might be better with the less aggressive brushes.

One reason I'd like to try an automatic tip cleaner at some point, is that the tips can snag on the wool (JBC tips for instance have a bulge at the end). Not a bit issue, just takes a few seconds to occasionally clear that off, but would be great to improve on that.

I don't want to spend a lot, so am interested in the sub-$100 options. Still kind of hoping others review first though!
 

Offline diggerTopic starter

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2024, 01:23:14 am »
i just ordered an aixun cm30 ($88 shipped, aliexpress), so we shall see. i'll do a teardown and review. i'll also try to compare it to yihua 200C ($50 shipped, amazon).

I've been using steel wool for the past seven or eight years or so, I initially wasn't sure because the manufacturer described it as 'more aggressive' but, I don't do production volumes, and so for general use, I've not noticed any premature tip wearing.

i've been very curious about stainless wool. did you get it from jbc? if i end up not liking automatic tip cleaners, maybe i'll try that out next for fun.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 01:28:31 am by digger »
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2024, 02:09:18 am »
Quote
Who the hell knows what is inside of some "port" that you stick a iron into?

Quote
a sense of professionalism

Yes I'm a sponge addict..."tssssss" :)
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2024, 02:57:10 am »
Hi,

I've been using JBC CL6205.
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2024, 04:34:29 am »
Quote
Who the hell knows what is inside of some "port" that you stick a iron into?

Quote
a sense of professionalism

Yes I'm a sponge addict..."tssssss" :)

that is no joke if someone happened to use your equipment, you can swap the tip and sponge very easily. Merit based access control in labs exists, on paper. In reality its a purely political situation, if you even have a key on the lab. Some sales executives might feel 'unwelcome'. Your iron can get hit with one of those tiny dollar store solder kits to repair someones whatever. He has enough power to cancel your lab and three labs over, and recognizes "Alloy" to be the name of a ship in his yacht club.

I can see how an argument might go if you dare accuse him of 'contaminating' something lol
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 04:41:22 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2024, 05:50:28 am »
@ Coppercone2

I don't think your detractors understand the implications of customers detecting impure alloys in quality assurance of hi-rel work.

Seriously:

At my company even the use of brass scourers are not allowed as the brass transfers to the iron in the tip. (Sure it saves tip wear to use it and it four nines  percent don't matter, but then loosing a contract of work for the sake of it is stupid).

Auto tip cleaners were originally designed for use on high volume manual assembly lines where speed is important, in our hi-rel work, good assembly techs are doing 1 joint in several minutes, cleaning tip between each one with a fibreglass pad and then wiping on damp natural sponge, or similar.

OK, tip cleaners are a fun gadget if you want an ornament for your hobby bench, but auditors from your hi-rel customer will perhaps advise you don't use them.

Regards.


 

Offline diggerTopic starter

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2024, 06:03:47 am »
I don't think your detractors understand the implications of customers detecting impure alloys in quality assurance of hi-rel work.

Seriously

🤔 i think anyone doing hi-rel work should understand how to deliver on that and do whatever's needed to get the job done properly. rather, what i don't understand is the relevance to this thread's topic of discussion. do you all routinely and repeatedly bring up risk of contamination any time soldering of any kind is discussed? honest question lol

but ok, don't use anything like brass wool or brush for paid hi-rel work. duly noted.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 06:16:48 am by digger »
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2024, 06:48:33 am »
I think there's a massive disconnect and perhaps a lack of comprehension about job roles in engineering. If it were so narrow, there'd be just a fraction of engineers here. There are thousands of design engineers, they get to choose which tools they feel they need for their job, it's their decision, because it's all about their productivity so that they ultimately _can_ meet customer needs. If they took several minutes to do one joint, that's zero value (and, if anything, detrimental) to the customer. Plus, (depending on how generous they are feeling) they will get their interns whatever tool they want and never verify the condition or even the presence of their sponges. Production-grade soldering is not part of those intern's job roles either.

If DIY enthusiasts want to use or even try out low-cost automatic tip cleaners, perhaps it could help them decide and better articulate their criteria when deciding what tools they may want for their job. Even if the org is paying for it, you don't want them to waste money. If the low-cost automatic cleaning is not beneficial, that's fine. I'll still be very grateful if someone investigated it. Part of engineering is naturally trying to be more efficient and optimize processes, even if it's just a few seconds shaved-off tip cleaning. Good on those who try to do that and report back to help others.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 11:07:15 pm by shabaz »
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2024, 06:08:05 pm »
do you all routinely and repeatedly bring up risk of contamination any time soldering of any kind is discussed? honest question lol.

Well, as you ask, yes I do. Not necessarily on forum, but there seems to be a misconception that auto tip cleaners are the dogs bollocks, and a must have best method.

I've personally nothing against their use, and in manual high volume production of commercial grade work they're just fine. I just dont see an application outside that.

If you're reviewing for company use, then they're not going to appreciate garbage that breaks down and doesn't have any wearing parts spares availability, there's a reason that Metcal, JBC, etc., are popular, and expensive.

If it's a little novelty item that will see minimal use, to clutter your hobby workbench, then buy the low end stuff, I've tried some of it but I won't comment because you don't want my opinion on the devices use case in the first place, apart from: you get what you pay for.

Buy cheap, buy again.

As for cutting corners and costs on the job to speed things up, by buying into gadgets like tip cleaners then you're in the kind of cutthroat competition market that isn't worth contemplating doing with manual assembly methods.

I hope you find something that satisfies your retail needs.

Regards.
X
 

Online Smokey

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2024, 08:30:55 pm »
...
 what i don't understand is the relevance to this thread's topic of discussion. do you all routinely and repeatedly bring up risk of contamination any time soldering of any kind is discussed? honest question
...

There is probably a good answer to this.  If you are making a product that needs to be RoHS compliant you must have completely separate soldering systems for the lead-free and leaded soldering stuff.  The rules say that contaminating your lead-free iron with leaded solder isn't allowed while still being RoHS compliant.  If you are also ISO compliant, there are rules and procedures associated with all this stuff too that make sure you have separate systems and don't cross contaminate.  It's sort of a big deal (as in a legal problem).

Now does this apply to some dude in his garage?  Not really.  But not all of us around here are just dudes in their garages.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2024, 10:55:05 pm by Smokey »
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2024, 09:37:07 pm »
Now does this apply to some dude in his garage?  Not really.  But not all of us around here are just dudes in their garages.

And the title of this thread is "less expensive options", if it wasn't obvious from the budget (<$100), its obvious now, we don't care about contamination.

If you do care, then its just use the fiber brushes, blue and black core to distinguish leaded or lead free https://www.jbctools.com/cl2008-fiber-brushes-for-automatic-tip-cleaner-product-2191.html
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 
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Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2024, 03:31:15 am »
Going back to the brass/steel discussion (and my question about whether the latter might be too aggressive for an automatic tool), it seems there is prior art for automatic cleaners with steel brushes, so it must work, at least with some combination of brushes and speed. The attached screenshot is from an 'Apollo-Seiko' tip cleaner for soldering robots.
There's even an automatic sponge machine for those who really want that!

This video was interesting; it's a vortex cleaner and needs an air supply, so none of that is cheap, but it was still interesting to see how it works; the presenter does a teardown, which reveals how the tip is sensed; there's likely an inductor there, and it (probably) detects the change in inductance caused by the metal tip/shaft.


 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2024, 10:54:58 am »
...
 what i don't understand is the relevance to this thread's topic of discussion. do you all routinely and repeatedly bring up risk of contamination any time soldering of any kind is discussed? honest question
...

There is probably a good answer to this.  If you are making a product that needs to be RoHS compliant you must have completely separate soldering systems for the lead-free and leaded soldering stuff.  The rules say that contaminating your lead-free iron with leaded solder isn't allowed while still being RoHS compliant.
Do they actually say that? I thought RoHS only stipulated maximum concentrations of the prohibited substances in the final product. I have never heard about it specifying processes themselves.


If you are also ISO compliant, there are rules and procedures associated with all this stuff too that make sure you have separate systems and don't cross contaminate.  It's sort of a big deal (as in a legal problem).
This, and perhaps IPC specs, make more sense in terms of proscribing how one must work.
 
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Offline diggerTopic starter

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2024, 09:26:44 am »
i received the aixun cm30 but couldn't play with it today because it came with a euro plug wall wart. i'll try to wire up another 12VDC wall wart with the correct barrel plug tomorrow or somehow adapt the existing one as it is 120VAC input compatible. not sure if i have a EU->US travel adapter thing in my junk collection (but ofc i have US->EU for when i travel), but it's possible.

i considered complaining to the ali seller, but i doubt it's worth the trouble. also, the listing didn't specify one way or the other. would you guys even bother? lol

initial impression is good though. it looks/feels quality on the outside. all metal housing. didn't take it apart yet, ofc.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2024, 09:32:43 am by digger »
 

Offline diggerTopic starter

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2024, 01:39:21 am »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/aixun-cm30-automatic-tip-cleaner-teardown-and-review/

i did a teardown/review of the aixun cm30. i have not used it long enough to say whether i prefer an automatic tip cleaner to brass wool, but assuming you like automatic tip cleaners, i feel ok about recommending it. it's probably the best inexpensive one you can get. it seems pretty high quality.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 01:43:29 am by digger »
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2025, 03:57:00 pm »
Five-minute review of the CM30 (or see the summary screenshot attached):


I thought it's not a bad product, it certainly functions, but not worth the price, especially if you already use metal wool for tip cleaning and don't solder for a living day-in day-out. If you didn't already have wool and a holder, then it might be worth it, if it's ever on discount.

My (complete speculation of course) theory on the good construction of the mechanism, is that maybe they were intended for a robot soldering machine, and they had spares and packaged them into enclosures for human use.
 
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Offline Shock

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2025, 10:15:15 pm »
I'd be checking these chinese models aren't causing long term wear due to the wire being a cheap overly abrasive substitute.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2025, 11:39:12 pm »
Not sure how to check that. However, I think there's a low risk on that front because, just from personal experience, I've been using steel wool for the past decade (manually cleaning) with no issue, and the brushes on the cleaner are softer than that; granted, they are spinning, so the cleaning motion is totally different. However, some commercial robot cleaners with spinning motions use steel brushes.

So, I think on that point, there's a good chance it may well be a non-issue for many, say for design engineering/prototype construction and for DIY enthusiasts. The tip cleaners certainly perform well for that, but to me, it's more irritating that there is a lack of spares.. which makes me think even more that maybe they are using robot cleaner machine parts to build these cleaners, and are just selling what they have.

I also don't like the cost*.. I think it's not worth it. If they were half the current prices, that would be almost a no-brainer, especially for users who didn't already have metal wool and a holder for it.

I'm currently using the Aixun automatic cleaner; I have not touched the JBC ball of metal wool since I've had the automatic cleaner. I do prefer to use the automatic cleaner. But still feels wrong to pay current prices for that benefit.
 
Those soldering at a sustained level frequently, or for production items, ought to continue to use brand tools; they wouldn't (or shouldn't!) risk affecting their processes to save a few hundred $). I think they are not really the audience for the tip cleaner models being discussed.

* EDIT: Plus, one may need to add on the cost of an AC-to-DC mains brick, depending on how confident they feel about the supplied one. I do not trust low-cost no-brand mains bricks, so I end up buying them locally from known trusted distributors.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 11:57:03 pm by shabaz »
 
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Offline Shock

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2025, 01:25:22 pm »
Brass is not magnetic, some steels are. You could sand or file it down and check the color. Don't use steel unless you want to risk damaging your tips plating. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Perhaps the next guy comes along follows your advice and fucks his expensive tips up. They might not use the same cleaning routine and a harsher stainless steel brush, there are a bunch of variables but the reason you don't use steel is because you're only wiping off some flux and the excess solder rather than trying to remove the soft tinned iron plating.

If you look after your tips you can avoid them getting heavily oxidized and they become quite easy to clean (depends on flux though). Back in the day techs would wipe them on their jeans :D.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 01:56:28 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline shabaz

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Re: Automatic Tip Cleaners (less expensive options)
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2025, 02:26:04 pm »
I'm using genuine (bought from an authorized supplier) JBC tips with it, i.e., top-end soldering iron bits. That is practical, I'm eating my own dog food, and I'm happy to update people with what I discover as I continue to use them with the cleaner, but I would say, who's to know whether others will receive the same brushes with their cleaner as me or not. There's no implicit guarantee here as one would hope for with a more established brand. For all you know, the next person might receive steel, brass, or whatever.

I have used steel wool with JBC tips for about a decade and have not had to replace any tips. As mentioned, there are commercial robot cleaners that use steel wool, so there is some precedent for that. I'm comfortable with the risk; it's not the end of the world if a mistake is made here. I'm extremely comfortable with my decisions here and, morally, have no problem with the summary findings I described earlier.

 


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