I now hate Ubiquiti - need a new bedfellow

[mapleLC]

As stated, I now hate Ubiquiti.

I have 7 perfectly operational wifi hot spots that I have owned for over a decade.  The investment, all told, was well over $1000, so over that time they cost me about $100 a year.

Again, perfectly serviceable, full bars on all devices.  Network mesh was working perfectly.

Enter the new Ubiquiti software?  Login data whore heaven.  Old gear?  Fuck you!  Network mesh is gone peon!  Don't move rooms!

So who makes good network gear that isn't a garbage pail like Ubiquiti is now?  I need a new bedfellow that isn't all feature block data whored up yet.

[madires]

Anything with proper hardware supported by OpenWrt.

[mapleLC]

I dont know what that is, can you explain?

[madires]

OpenWrt is an alternative open source firmware supporting many routers/APs (https://openwrt.org/). It's based on linux, runs quite stable and comes with tons of features. You can also install additional software.

[AndyBeez]

If you're on a small budget, I hear good things about TP Link's Omada range. It's not Cisco/Meraki, but it's not priced like Cisco! It's both cloud based or stand alone configuration. Check out: https://www.tp-link.com/uk/omada-sdn/

[mapleLC]

If you're on a small budget, I hear good things about TP Link's Omada range. It's not Cisco/Meraki, but it's not priced like Cisco! It's both cloud based or stand alone configuration. Check out: https://www.tp-link.com/uk/omada-sdn/

That's what Ubiquiti "was" also.  Now it's even a standalone data whore. I am hesitant to repeat the behavior that led me to Ubiquiti, but if it supports true standalone, then I would consider it.

This Merkai is cloud based data whore, so that's not an option. 

I wonder if I just need to buy old gear like I do with printers.  I have a few workhorse HPs pre-page count obsolescence whoring started, the 3 together should satisfy my lifetime need for printers.  Not enough people sit down and really calculate what these companies actually cost them like I did with Ubiquiti.  Now they want to hose me so I can start paying again just when my cost of operation has dropped below $100 a year?  No thanks.  Find other goobers to buy your junk.

[mapleLC]

OpenWrt is an alternative open source firmware supporting many routers/APs (https://openwrt.org/). It's based on linux, runs quite stable and comes with tons of features. You can also install additional software.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21432138

Ubiquiti became aware of this and has blocked it in it's firmware, what a shocker.

[ygi]

Often times Openwrt's initial installation is possible through some security exploit either in the firmware or its bootloader. Maybe Ubiquiti simply did their job by patching that security flaw without malice. Yeah I know... wishful thinking and all that.

[mapleLC]

I feel this poor guy.  Topical:

https://hardforum.com/threads/what-are-some-ubiquiti-unifi-alternatives-or-zs-ditching-unifi-for-good-thread.2010940/

[Whales]

+1 for OpenWRT supported hardware.  Devices last longer with OpenWRT, or at least you can tolerate them a lot longer

Problems that OpenWRT has allowed me to get around:

 - Bad guest wifi implementations that randomly block all packets (Unfi AP ACs)
 - Bad guest wifi implementations that don't actually block access to other devices on the LAN (ie not really a guest mode at all, just a second SSID)
 - No guest wifi implementations
 - Requiring reboots every few days to weeks for wifi chipset stability (sadly in one case I did this via scheduled down/up, brrr)
 - Bad/old VPN software
 - Bad/old VPN software getting disabled by 1st-party vendor in updates because they realise it's so bad/old (TP-link)
 - Cloud-connected firmware (ie any feature beyond fetching firmware updates)
 - EDIT: Bufferbloat (internet slowing to a crawl and dropping packets when someone uses lots of upload bandwidth or torrents)
 - EDIT: NAT table exhaustion (again torrent users.  Modify the lifetime of stale NAT entries)
 - Probably more that I can't remember.

There are first-party OpenWRT devices sold by companies like GLinet, otherwise popular supported platforms like some (check version codes!) of the TP-link archer series are extremely well supported for Wifi.  It's been a while since I looked.

[mapleLC]

+1 for OpenWRT supported hardware.  Devices last longer with OpenWRT, or at least you can tolerate them a lot longer

Problems that OpenWRT has allowed me to get around:

 - Bad guest wifi implementations that randomly block all packets (Unfi AP ACs)
 - Bad guest wifi implementations that don't actually block access to other devices on the LAN (ie not really a guest mode at all, just a second SSID)
 - No guest wifi implementations
 - Requiring reboots every few days to weeks for wifi chipset stability (sadly in one case I did this via scheduled down/up, brrr)
 - Bad/old VPN software
 - Bad/old VPN software getting disabled by 1st-party vendor in updates because they realise it's so bad/old (TP-link)
 - Cloud-connected firmware (ie any feature beyond fetching firmware updates)
 - EDIT: Bufferbloat (internet slowing to a crawl and dropping packets when someone uses lots of upload bandwidth or torrents)
 - EDIT: NAT table exhaustion (again torrent users.  Modify the lifetime of stale NAT entries)
 - Probably more that I can't remember.

There are first-party OpenWRT devices sold by companies like GLinet, otherwise popular supported platforms like some (check version codes!) of the TP-link archer series are extremely well supported for Wifi.  It's been a while since I looked.

Would this be an example of such a product?  Router aside, could I use these to more or less replace the ubiquiti wireless setup I have?


https://store.gl-inet.com/collections/smart-home-gateway-mesh-router/products/velica-gl-b2200?variant=32131378184286

[Whales]

Potentially.  There are lots of variables.  I have not bought a GLinet device in many years (and even then it was a fleet of a few dozen of their lower-end models), so I can't pass much judgement.

I recommend reading the OpenWRT wiki page for a device before you buy it.  Sometimes there are gotchas.  It also lets you find out what wireless chipset it uses, letting you check wifi features (eg how many MIMO channels) and find out if there are competitor's units with the same wireless chipset but at a much lower price (ie basically identical units just in different clothing).

GLinet offers some Wifi APs that can support PoE if that's your thing.  I like PoE powerable units (I won a PoE switch at an event and now use it at home) but not everyone wants to pay the premium for these features.

Question: What is the current Ubiquiti hardware that you're angry with and wanting to replace?  OpenWRT might already support it.  I didn't have any issues flashing OpenWRT onto any of the AP AC lites I've bought first party (for work) or second hand (for home).

[mapleLC]

Potentially.  There are lots of variables.  I have not bought a GLinet device in many years (and even then it was a fleet of a few dozen of their lower-end models), so I can't pass much judgement.

I recommend reading the OpenWRT wiki page for a device before you buy it.  Sometimes there are gotchas.  It also lets you find out what wireless chipset it uses, letting you check wifi features (eg how many MIMO channels) and find out if there are competitor's units with the same wireless chipset but at a much lower price (ie basically identical units just in different clothing).

GLinet offers some Wifi APs that can support PoE if that's your thing.  I like PoE powerable units (I won a PoE switch at an event and now use it at home) but not everyone wants to pay the premium for these features.

Question: What is the current Ubiquiti hardware that you're angry with and wanting to replace?  OpenWRT might already support it.  I didn't have any issues flashing OpenWRT onto any of the AP AC lites I've bought first party (for work) or second hand (for home).

I have a set of the Unifi AP units and whatever they called the previous version.  I read it is possible but you have to back out to an old firmware because the newer ones block the flash by openwrt - it just sounds like one of those things that is fraught with failure and frustration.

[madires]

There are first-party OpenWRT devices sold by companies like GLinet, otherwise popular supported platforms like some (check version codes!) of the TP-link archer series are extremely well supported for Wifi.  It's been a while since I looked.

Didn't know GL.iNet before. They have some interesting devices with a great price-performance ratio, similar to TP-Link. RAM and Flash sizes are also reasonable. I'll keep an eye on them. Thanks for the hint!

[mapleLC]

There are first-party OpenWRT devices sold by companies like GLinet, otherwise popular supported platforms like some (check version codes!) of the TP-link archer series are extremely well supported for Wifi.  It's been a while since I looked.

Didn't know GL.iNet before. They have some interesting devices with a great price-performance ratio, similar to TP-Link. RAM and Flash sizes are also reasonable. I'll keep an eye on them. Thanks for the hint!

It does indeed look interesting, I may try it and report back here, though it might be a while to get enough inertia going to re-learn all this stuff.

[NiHaoMike]

Mikrotik appears to be a direct competitor to Ubiquiti.

[Whales]

BUMP

Just got my hands on a second-hand GL-inet GL-B1330 "Convexa B" wireless access point for $50AUD.  Flashing the latest openwrt firmware took a few minutes (the thing already runs OpenWRT, so it's dead easy) and it's now running a duplicate config of my other Unifi AP AC Lite wireless access point (same SSID + psks, so devices should transparently roam between them).

I'll update here to tell you how well it performs after a few days of usage.

[mapleLC]

Is that a wireless access point or a router?  The links points to a router.

[Whales]

It's both, either one or neither.   It's a generic device that you configure to be anything that you want.

Internally it's an ARM SoC running Linux, an ethernet switch connected to 3 RJ-45 ports + the SoC and a wireless chipset.  As far as I'm aware all WAPs and routers on the market today (<$500 or so) are this same basic structure, just with some features not implemented or artificially restricted in firmware.  The OpenWRT firmware lets you do whatever you want from the simple to the insane.

To make it a dumb WAP I just disabled the DHCP server on the LAN interface group and told it to behave like a client instead (DHCP for its own ip), then setup passwords and wireless configuration as per normal.  OpenWRT comes by default with the wireless interfaces and LAN ethernet interfaces already bridged, so you don't have to change anything there.  I used the web interface to change these settings, but you can also ssh/telnet in if that's your thing.

[ygi]

BUMP

Just got my hands on a second-hand GL-inet GL-B1330 "Convexa B" wireless access point for $50AUD.  Flashing the latest openwrt firmware took a few minutes (the thing already runs OpenWRT, so it's dead easy) and it's now running a duplicate config of my other Unifi AP AC Lite wireless access point (same SSID + psks, so devices should transparently roam between them).

I'll update here to tell you how well it performs after a few days of usage.

That's technically not roaming, that's losing connection then reconnecting to the strongest signal with a new session. True seamless roaming needs centralized authentication or some peer to peer exchange between APs. Typically that's done through 801.1x (the most complex way with a dedicated server) or 802.11r where APs participating to the same domain constantly exchange clients authentication infos. Though many mainstream client devices don't handle advanced config properly or at all due to poor wifi driver.

[mapleLC]

That's technically not roaming, that's losing connection then reconnecting to the strongest signal with a new session. True seamless roaming needs centralized authentication or some peer to peer exchange between APs. Typically that's done through 801.1x (the most complex way with a dedicated server) or 802.11r where APs participating to the same domain constantly exchange clients authentication infos. Though many mainstream client devices don't handle advanced config properly or at all due to poor wifi driver.

Can you expand on "technically"?

Is it like 60hz frame rate which technically is 60 frames a sec but you see it as contiguous?  Or here, will you see the bars disappear and reappear again quickly?  Thats disruptive. The problem with my current setup is that its never thinking about finding a closer hotspot, it just follows the one weakening across the house until it resets (how I dont know - seems like the phone is doing it not the wifi).

[Whales]

Yes it's not 802.11r transitions, I'm too lazy to set that up.  I've heard the term "roaming" used in both reference to that standard and in terms of moving between WAPs with the same SSID+psk.

The problem with my current setup is that its never thinking about finding a closer hotspot, it just follows the one weakening across the house until it resets (how I dont know - seems like the phone is doing it not the wifi).

I believe this behaviour is up to the client, unless the WAPs force their hand by forcing a disconnect (or something similar).

My wireless config in OpenWRT has some options that might (?) be useful here: "force disconnect on low ACK" and some distance-tuning variables like max distance to clients (I need to read into this one, maybe it forces disconnects once you are out of range?).  There has probably been some thought put into this, I have not read deeply into it.

Some people refuse to use the same SSID for both their 2.4GHz and 5GHz access points because many devices are too stupid to select between them well (keep in mind both the 2.4Ghz and 5GHz networks are broadcast by the same physical WAP).  I don't bother, things work OK for me on that front.

[Whales]

Some possibly relevant reading:

[...] Clients should always roam before they get anywhere near the low data rates we’re proposing to disable. For example, iOS devices (v8 and later) trigger roam scanning at -70dBm and roam when there is an 8-12dB difference between the current and new APs.

Sticky Clients \ Roaming

Sticky clients just suck. If a client device has poor SNR (either unidirectional or bi-directional), it will use unsophisticated modulation, and so will use low MCS/data rates. Equally bad, sticky clients significantly extend the interference range of a BSS, and CCI drives down network capacity. By raising the MBR to 12M, it limits the data rate that the AP can use for transmissions.

[...]

Poor client drivers are partially to blame for stickiness, and poor network design is the rest of the story. Good enterprise design often means use of fairly low AP power to prevent CCI. (Before you WiFi nerds start throwing out corner cases, I used the word “often” on purpose.) Turning the AP power down means that clients won’t be able to hear the AP as far, and so will be forced to roam sooner.

The author claims you should disable some of the lower speed legacy wifi rates and reduce your wireless APs' transmit power in order to get your clients to more reliably roam between APs.

[ygi]

That's technically not roaming, that's losing connection then reconnecting to the strongest signal with a new session. True seamless roaming needs centralized authentication or some peer to peer exchange between APs. Typically that's done through 801.1x (the most complex way with a dedicated server) or 802.11r where APs participating to the same domain constantly exchange clients authentication infos. Though many mainstream client devices don't handle advanced config properly or at all due to poor wifi driver.

Can you expand on "technically"?

Is it like 60hz frame rate which technically is 60 frames a sec but you see it as contiguous?  Or here, will you see the bars disappear and reappear again quickly?  Thats disruptive. The problem with my current setup is that its never thinking about finding a closer hotspot, it just follows the one weakening across the house until it resets (how I dont know - seems like the phone is doing it not the wifi).

Whales pretty much said it all already. The difference would be, say you're downloading a file and you "roam" between independent APs, well your download gets interrupted. It's effectively a disconnection due to bad connection. Because the wifi disconnection is caused by poor reception, AP will waste time trying to resend data to the now out of reach client thus triggering a session termination further up the line due to timeout and/or management messages. If all stars align, you can trigger a client side disconnection and full reconnection before a session timeout but that's assuming you have a very dense AP coverage to do it fast enough. Better than nothing anyway but you don't have any control over it if we're talking about smartphones and the likes.

Whereas with true roaming, your client wireless session (referring here to its valid authentication to a trusted AP) is handed over to the next trusted AP in the same domain without restarting the time consuming authentication process or wasting bandwidth resending data to nowhere. With the added benefit of not reducing modulation speed for all other clients connected to the same AP.
To achieve that, either APs need to trust each others and exchange their session info or they just delegate the whole authentication/session tracking process to a dedicated server. Then again, bad client drivers will give you headaches no matter what.

[Jeroen3]

Mikrotik appears to be a direct competitor to Ubiquiti.

Mikrotik offers cheap hardware with very versatile software, at a learning curve. They're definetely not intended for end-user sales, which you can do with ubnt. But in the business realm they compete.
Though, mikrotik is a generation behind on 802.11 iirc.

[nowlan]

Not sure the aversion to cloud or data whore. You might look at the Aruba Instant On. Could managed, but no ongoing fees.

[PKTKS]

OpenWrt is an alternative open source firmware supporting many routers/APs (https://openwrt.org/). It's based on linux, runs quite stable and comes with tons of features. You can also install additional software.

+2 cents...  https://mikrotik.com/   has been order of mag better than UBI.

Some corps just squat a shit on costumers head..  I could enum a list... but I guess....

Tell these assholes to FUCKOFF.
It has been the last decade moto..

Paul

[mapleLC]

Not sure the aversion to cloud or data whore. You might look at the Aruba Instant On. Could managed, but no ongoing fees.

Cloud managed is code for data whore.  It's not even worth researching.

[BlackICE]

Cloud mgt. is a security risk! At best it is only as secure as the company running the clouds servers want it to be and at worst easily hacked by 3rd parties subjecting your network and equipment to much more that data leaks!

[David Hess]

If you're on a small budget, I hear good things about TP Link's Omada range. It's not Cisco/Meraki, but it's not priced like Cisco! It's both cloud based or stand alone configuration. Check out: https://www.tp-link.com/uk/omada-sdn/

That's what Ubiquiti "was" also.  Now it's even a standalone data whore. I am hesitant to repeat the behavior that led me to Ubiquiti, but if it supports true standalone, then I would consider it.

Running the local controller for Ubiquity is not enough?  I just have it on a spare PC at the moment.

[Jr460]

If you're on a small budget, I hear good things about TP Link's Omada range. It's not Cisco/Meraki, but it's not priced like Cisco! It's both cloud based or stand alone configuration. Check out: https://www.tp-link.com/uk/omada-sdn/

That's what Ubiquiti "was" also.  Now it's even a standalone data whore. I am hesitant to repeat the behavior that led me to Ubiquiti, but if it supports true standalone, then I would consider it.

Running the local controller for Ubiquity is not enough?  I just have it on a spare PC at the moment.

Unless they really, really changed something, the local controller software/app doesn't even need to be running.   Fire it up when you want to check something or make a change to you network config.   I did this for long time.  It can't collect data if it is not up and running.

I do have a local controller that is up all the time time now, nothing leaves for cloud management, no remote management.   

[mapleLC]

At some point you will need the new software.  That's when all of this BS happened to me.  Also, you are speaking pretty generically about a company with a lot of products.  You could be comparing experiences with anything there.

There's no way around what I am experiencing, you can search it yourself.  If yours is not now, it's probably coming.

[David Hess]

Running the local controller for Ubiquity is not enough?  I just have it on a spare PC at the moment.

Unless they really, really changed something, the local controller software/app doesn't even need to be running.   Fire it up when you want to check something or make a change to you network config.   I did this for long time.  It can't collect data if it is not up and running.

That is what I have been doing but only because I have not gotten around to having the local controller automatically start and I forget until I need it.

I do have a local controller that is up all the time time now, nothing leaves for cloud management, no remote management.

I think that was in the configuration somewhere.  I disabled it all.

At some point you will need the new software.  That's when all of this BS happened to me.  Also, you are speaking pretty generically about a company with a lot of products.  You could be comparing experiences with anything there.

I have their most recent Unifi Wifi 6 access point and software.  Part of the reason I bought it is to evaluate Unifi.

[mansaxel]

One vote for legacy gear. I was able to get a pile of Cisco 2701 access points (too old to work with some new management model and therefore retired) and am running a wireless controller in VMware for them.  No cloud. PoE.

[BlackICE]

I'm using AC-lite is that legacy gear?

I haven't look at mine for months and after reading this thread a few days ago I decide to see what they are doing and updating the firmware. To my surprise I couldn't connect to them using the controller running on Windows. Tried updating the controller still would work. I could see the AP but they weren't online and I couldn't get them online. I ended up running the controller inside docker on a NAS. That worked for 4 out of 5 APs.  The 5th one I had to reset, but the reset button seem not to work. I turned out the switch was in pieces. I ending up soldering 2 wire to the switch contact and ran them outside the case. After a reset I got it to work.

[Whales]

UPDATE

My $50 AUD second-hand Gl-inet AP has been working great for the past few days.  Not much more to say.  Having the second AP in the house has dramatically improved reception in certain spots.

[Whales]

I assume the AP AC line is still current.  They have evolved that line slowly over time (the older hardware with a black logo needed nonstandard PoE from their nonstandard injectors) and I think they still sell it?

[mapleLC]

I am reporting back on my results

All Ubiquiti products are turned off and dead to me. 

I went with Gl.iNet, the one mentioned above.  It has everything I need.  Open source, router or access point, and not expensive.

 GL-inet GL-B1330 "Convexa B"


The learning curve was not simple.  I could not get the mesh to work after try after try.  I managed to get 1 node, but never another, so I abandoned it.

Here is some stupid/laughable/good to know:

There is an advanced setup page for the admin console... I kept thinking I hosed it and lost the skin.  Several resets later I realized I was dumb.

The instructions out there are poor, good luck.

The debricking video is very good, look it up

Ignore resetting posts online... left button flashes, faster flashes, let it go.  That's it.

Its not as fast daisy chained... I kept my switch to switch communications and used the GLs as spokes to the switches.  The main router gets the internet, that gets a lan connection to my best switch, that goes to my other 2 switches at the other ends of the house.  The other access points are off those switches.  Initially I daisy chained the Gls but that wasn't very quick, I have some pretty good Cisco switches optically wired.

I wish was a POE unit, the adapter is available but not worth it in my view.

I guess after doing this, its a good setup for a home.

My guy says that this router is not that potent, and that I would do better with a powerful router and covert all the Gls to access points... am I correct?

Any thoughts on openwrt routers that might be more potent and fit within the ethos of the thread?

[Whales]

For openWRT device recommendations: scroll to the bottom of  https://forum.openwrt.org/t/whats-your-favorite-enthusiast-lede-openwrt-device/4477/1 and have a look at some of the other forum topics there.

The learning curve was not simple.  I could not get the mesh to work after try after try.  I managed to get 1 node, but never another, so I abandoned it.

I've never tried sorry. 

From what I've read: mesh wifi and wifi repeaters are intrinsically unreliable.  They sometimes work and sometimes don't. 

[madires]

Quadcore ARM, 717MHz, 256MB RAM and 32MB flash is fine for high-speed DSL and running a VoIP PBX. Unless you want to go for 1Gbps FTTH that router should last a while.

[fortunamatada]

Hate to break it to you, but GliNet EoLs their products as well. 

And you can always just run an old version of the controller (no, that doesn't mean its cloud managed unless you go buy the cloud managed version, the local version is totally free and local) if you want to keep using your old gear.  And I mean, if your 10 year old car breaks down, do you think the dealership will just fix it for free?  Why should they write code for you for free for a decade? 

[JohanH]

I'm using three Zyxel access points in the house. I haven't cared about "roaming", but the newest one that I have, NWA50AX, supposedly supports 802.11r in managed controller mode. This requires cloud access, so I haven't cared about that. In standalone mode, they are supposed to stop to respond or disassociate the client if the RSSI of the client reaches a certain value and thereby enables the client to switch to another AP (supports 802.11k/v). So far I haven't cared about it, I anyway have 1 GBit wired ethernet in all rooms. I haven't used other APs since the days of Linksys WRT54 and such, but these Zyxel ones have been pretty much set and forget. I did set their 2.4 and 5 GHz channels individually to avoid overlap. This is done automatically if you use their Nebula platform.

[madires]

Hate to break it to you, but GliNet EoLs their products as well. 

You have a few choices:
- Buy a new inexpensive router every few years (2 or 3 years in most cases).
- Buy a more expensive router with longer support (about 10 years, e.g. AVM or Lancom).
- Buy an inexpensive router supported by OpenWrt.
- Build your own router (mini PC with pfSense/OPNsense/OpenWrt).

[madires]

From what I've read: mesh wifi and wifi repeaters are intrinsically unreliable.  They sometimes work and sometimes don't.

In that sense we could also say that WiFi is inherently unreliable, because of the use of ISM bands. Most problems with extenders, mesh and repeaters are caused by compatibility issues or an uncommon interpretation of standards. For example, D-Link is known for devices with poor WiFi performance. I've seen expensive D-Link APs using strange timeout settings which create a lot a fun with devices from other vendors.

[mapleLC]

Hate to break it to you, but GliNet EoLs their products as well. 

And you can always just run an old version of the controller (no, that doesn't mean its cloud managed unless you go buy the cloud managed version, the local version is totally free and local) if you want to keep using your old gear.  And I mean, if your 10 year old car breaks down, do you think the dealership will just fix it for free?  Why should they write code for you for free for a decade?

You missed the point, by a lot.

Take you analogy, but instead of fixing you car for free, they intentionally break it under a forced service agreement you "agree to".  Do you understand better?