Author Topic: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose  (Read 276 times)

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Offline rosak

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JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« on: November 30, 2019, 10:55:28 am »
Hi,
I've been using Hakko T12 system for past few years, I decided to try JBC in my repairs workshop.
I am extremely disappointed by UK distributor Kaisertech as they ignored my 30 days trial request (passed to them by JBC) and also ignored presentation request, but that's for another post.
I purchased DDE-2C station with T245-A and AT-420-A and few other accessories, $1600 in total.
Now I want to make the most of it and I'm looking to buy more special cartridges, but which?.

Some C245 cartridges are obvious, some are easy to figure out how to use them but some aren't.
I normally use Hakko T12-BCF2 (or 1) - JBC C245-102 / JBC C245-064:



for drag soldering QFPs (112, 144). I'm going to try C245-965 "spoon" as I've seen a while ago Dave reviewing similar thing:



There is C245-009 in catalogue, described as "Cartridges to solder SMT IC" "QFP":



I have no idea how to use that, how does it work.
Can anyone explain or provide a link to some demonstration?

I've been looking almost everywhere, only found 1 youtube video with a few special cartridges, 1 of them being C245-667 which looks very handy when soldering multiple pins THT connectors.

I bet I could make my job much easier by using a proper tools, I am happy to spend unlimited amount  of money but manufacturer doesn't seem to be willing to help me choose correct tools.
I'm hoping you guys can help me with that.

Thank you all in advance.

Offline digsys

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2019, 12:01:48 pm »
These are a few of the different tips I (ve) use(d) for many years -881642-0
To start - the multi-pin tips (there are a few types), just basically just "load" the tip with solder, and wipe it along the pins. That's all. Surface tension etc "pulls" the exact amount of solder to each pin as you "wipe". Naturally, it does rely on solder mask present between the pins (=normally).
Even if not, if there is enough gap, most pins will wet fine. If you get a bridge, just re-run it, and it will clean up. Always best to  apply flux first though. You can zoom through ICs, no matter how fine pitch, very easily.
The flat blade tips you see, I use for DIL / SMD removal. Single side at a time mode - I apply flux and / or extra solder along the first side, if the joints are "dry", then just drop the tip along the side and "pop" that side up with tweezers. (holding it at the pins for max leverage). Doesn't need to come up much. The do the other side. I have also used these to "wipe solder" all pins, when I had a lot to do. Minor cleanups after.
I actually find this method MUCH faster and safer than using my myriad hot air guns / tips, which sometimes need to "cook" the pins for many seconds, and STILL may lift a track (on very fine pitches). IF I have several ICs, or other "trickier" cases, I use the tweezer handpiece (2 sizes), with 2 of these tips. Just make sure you have enough flux and solder - it's easy to clean up after.
For quad packs, I often STILL use the tweezer set - flood all 4 sides, melt 2x sides quickly and pop up with tweezers. You have 2-3 secs at least, before one set of sides cools again. I can do several QFPs in a few seconds at a time.
The mini-spoon tip is usually ALL I use for for both types of packages you mention. That QFP tip you show, looks like the DE-solder tips I have for the JBC de-solderer. In all cases, I "tag" one of each corner first, with an ultra-fine tip first - to LOCK it in place, then use the flow tips. That way, you can't mis-align / push the IC off registration.
Having a very large variety of tips / sizes, pretty much assures me that there is NO job I can't solder / de-solder efficiently. Let me know if you have any other particular questions.
Edit: You run the "pool" of solder (held in the tip) along the boundary between the pc pins and the pcb. Each pin will "pull" the exact amount it needs.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:27:49 pm by digsys »
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Online Shock

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2019, 12:48:57 pm »
C245-009 is for soldering S-Lead legs on surface mount devices. Most specialized tips are unnecessary unless you are going to be using them often.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM     >>> Fluke 51/52 Thermometer Parts Required <<<
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 
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Offline rosak

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2019, 02:36:18 pm »
C245-009 is for soldering S-Lead legs on surface mount devices.

I know what it is for, I just can't imagine how it actually works.

Most specialized tips are unnecessary unless you are going to be using them often.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been using Hakko T12-BCF1, BCF2 and JS02 to do almost every job i needed quite efficiently.
Comparing Hakko BCF2 to JBC C245-102 - they both are theoretically the same, but JBC seems to be leaving more solder on the pads of ie QFP128 with 0.5mm pitch (Hakko leaves less than I want it to, I have to inspect each IC and sometimes touch-up a few single legs which takes an extra 1-2 minutes altogether).
So if C245-009 for $50 or so could save me a minute on every IC then it's a well spent money.

Thank you @digsys for everything you wrote. I very appreciate the time you spent to help.

If you get a bridge, just re-run it, and it will clean up.

If it works for you then fine, but I would avoid re-run all pins. It is not necessary to re-melt existing good joints and heat up the IC again. You can remove bridges simply by touching them with C245-102 but if you gain a bit of experience you won't make any bridges at all.

For quad packs, I often STILL use the tweezer set - flood all 4 sides, melt 2x sides quickly and pop up with tweezers

Not a bad idea. I rarely have to lift QFP but if I have to I just use QUICK 861DW hot air. Most often I just have to remove old lead free cr..p and apply fresh leaded solder.

I "tag" one of each corner first, with an ultra-fine tip first - to LOCK it in place, then use the flow tips. That way, you can't mis-align / push the IC off registration.

I place and align the IC, push and hold it with tweezers using 1 hand, dispense the flux using other hand and drag solder everything straight away while still holding it, that way it's much faster.

Thank you very much again for your input. I will still be trying to get to know how C245-009 works. I will probably end up buying it (and many other tips) just to try/test them.
Pity the manufacturer/official distributor is not willing to help.

Online JackJones

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2019, 03:18:16 pm »
The C245-965 is my "daily driver" and it does 95+% of the stuff I want. The tip of it is very sharp if I need extra precision and the flat part of the spoon can be used to solder through hole components pretty well.

If I need to solder more than a few through hole parts or anything heavier I have C245-944 and C245-741. Between those three I have never really felt like missing anything.
 
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Online gabinetex

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2019, 03:43:16 pm »

Some C245 cartridges are obvious, some are easy to figure out how to use them but some aren't.

I feel your pain. There are some JBC tips that would clearly benefit from having an instruction manual.
Apart from the C245-009, this other 2:
.
Sure... One is for PLCC packages, the other for through hole... the question is HOW?

Anyhow, regarding the C245-009, I bought one a few weeks ago, but haven't had the chance to use it yet (and I wont be able to in a while since I am in the process of moving abroad, and don't have a lab). But I tell you what I know:
The C245-009 is sometimes referred as a mini-spoon tip. The groove is there to hold the solder just like the well in a normal spoon. It is used for drag soldering of gull-wing leads in general, not just QFPs.
Maybe you already knew this, don't know.
Like so (roughly):
882038-0.881930-1.
You get the idea.
881922-2.881926-3


Whether it is really useful or not I don't know, I only paid 8 euros for it anyway. If you want to play it safe get the traditional spoons or the tinned-face-only you are already familiar with. Once I have used it for a while I'll report, but it may take some time, a couple of months at least.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 08:02:20 pm by gabinetex »
 
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Offline digsys

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2019, 09:59:26 pm »
Quote from: rosak
... It is not necessary to re-melt existing good joints and heat up the IC again. You can remove bridges simply by touching them with C245-102 but if you gain a bit of experience you won't make any bridges at all ...
Doesn't matter how good you are, you WILL occasionally make bridges. All I was alluding to is - you don't need to use solder wick etc to remove the excess, the tip is designed to both "push out" and "suck in" due to capillary. There is NO more heat than having to run it over with another tip, which wastes time switching. I've done many 1,000s in my time.
Quote from: rosak
... I just have to remove old lead free cr..p and apply fresh leaded solder
Yep, an absolute must. Even some leaded pcbs are too "dry", with even flux not helping enough.
Quote from: rosak
I place and align the IC, push and hold it with tweezers using 1 hand, dispense the flux using other hand and drag solder everything straight away while still holding it, that way it's much faster 
Fine, when it works, but doesn't always. By "tagging" all the ICs in place, the job as a whole is simplified. This is especially helpful for extremely fine pitch pins with very little landing pad area. By tagging 4 sides, the IC can never slip.
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Offline rosak

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2019, 08:16:14 am »
Apart from the C245-009, this other 2:
Sure... One is for PLCC packages, the other for through hole... the question is HOW?

I've seen these 2 too, no idea how they work.
Some sort of presentation would help but as I said the UK distributor kaisertech ignored my request.

The C245-009 is sometimes referred as a mini-spoon tip. The groove is there to hold the solder just like the well in a normal spoon. It is used for drag soldering of gull-wing leads in general, not just QFPs.
Maybe you already knew this, don't know.

I kind of guessed that but I wonder whether it's better than a "normal" spoon. I think I'll stick to hoof tip and spoon for now but if you ever manage to try C245-009 please report.


Offline KL27x

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Re: JBC C245 tips/cartridges - how to use them, which to choose
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2019, 10:15:13 pm »
I would think you could drag the radiused edge of that -009 tip across the toes (or maybe the shoulders) of gullwing pins by holding it horizontally, in addition to using it the way that has been pictured, vertically over the pins, which seems rather limiting to the angle you have to hold it.

IMO, the tiny divot in a spoon tip does not make it particularly different from a normal hoof. Maybe if it was a CF spoon, it would be the best of both worlds. I think the CF > spoon cuz of the tinned-face only. That reduces bridging so much better than a normal hoof/spoon that you can glob more solder onto a CF vs a spoon tip.

2mm CF is indeed a handy tip. But 2.5-2.8 CF is just that much better, IME. Sometimes a smaller bevel is necessary in tight spots. But where you can wield it, the larger tip will be more forgiving of the amount of solder that is loaded on there, and it will do more soldering once in its sweet spot. Up to a point. Bigger than 3mm, and the tip can start to lose control of the solder bead cuz surface tension is losing the battle against gravity.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 10:21:06 pm by KL27x »
 


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