JBC or ERSA? Mini-review: demoing a JBC system but not convinced.

[sn4k3]

Thank you for showing.
My config is like yours




But when i use like this angle, it start to burn my fingers:

[SVFeingold]

Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

[wraper]

Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

Hot air goes upwards.

[sn4k3]

Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

Hot air goes upwards.

Thats right, i find it hard to press if i go upper, so i press at very bottom of the handle

[PA4TIM]

ERSA and PACE are not very popular, and I've only seen one PACE from my boss's old collection, and not a single ERSA.
Metcal is quite popular in my university undergrad labs

TS: With that budget, Did you look at Pace ? I have an old MBT250, (the black one) I use it for professional  repairwork, not production. I bought it something like 10 years ago used ex military. Just because it had the (SX70) desolder iron and was cheap. My main rig was a WS81, and I still like that a lot. Also because it is analog. Just turn a knob, no fancy menus.

But the Pace turned out to be so easy to use and performed great. All the theoretical downsides turned out to be no issue.
Tip wetting is no problem. Besides that, they are cheap and last a long time. Tips have a hard life here because I do a lot of industrial repair (conformal coatings, old tin, dirt etc) Wetting has never been a problem. If I abused a tip to much I use Weller tip-reactivator. I bought that for my DIY custom tips (If I need a very special shape I make sometimes tips from brass)

Never had problems with not enough power. I have it standard at 320 and maybe once a month I set it at 370, I can do much more.

After wasting 900 euros on a Metcal I upgraded my Pace with a new solder handpiece (the big one because I like my Weller for the microstuff) Not really needed but I wanted a new one because the old one had become very dirty and it had not yet the silicon wire. And a new SX-100 with the tips that are trumpet like on the reservoir side, and that one sucks, but in the good way  It has no problems doing what Esra did in that video. I desolder a lot,  never counted it but I think 50 to 100 joints a day and sometimes much more.
In 1 year my 2 Metcal pumps used 3 membrames, I cleaned the Pace pump 2 times in 10 years and both times it was not really needed. Not even signs of wear.

The stands are fine, I toss the handpieces in and grab them without looking. Tip changes with a screw and Pace tweezer like tiptool sounds like something from the dark ages but it simply works. No problem in all those years. I switch tips not much, something like 2 times a day for the solder handpiece but something like 5 to 10x a day for the SX-100. They have great working cardboard reservoirs for the SX100 but I use the glass one (that comes also standard) Works good enough for me. I clean it so often it became a routine and 1 minute of time.

They still sell parts for my MBT. When I was in doubt between a JBS or a new Pace (not because my Pace had problems, just because it was old and the SX-70 worn. I did not know there was a SX100 for my station. After the 900 euro Metcal disaster I contacted Pace for advise. He told me the SX100 was worth the money (and he was right) but no need to buy a new station or a new pump. He also advised me in several mails about the best tips for me. I bought those too and he was right again.

It not fancy looking gear with nice displays, it is just build like a brick to last forever and do it's job as easy as possible for the user.

[Safar]

Thank you for showing.
My config is like yours


But when i use like this angle, it start to burn my fingers:

For me personally more comfortable this way:

[Safar]

And I don't like one thing. Instrument part of stands make from ceramics (except vac tool). It is good for stand, but don't for tools:

[wraper]

And I don't like one thing. Instrument part of stands make from ceramics (except vac tool). It is good for stand, but don't for tools:

That's why I'm using older version of stand which is rubber only, without ceramic insert. Although I have a new holder somewhere in the box.

[DimitriP]

It not fancy looking gear with nice displays, it is just build like a brick to last forever and do it's job as easy as possible for the user.

That's fancy right there !

[SVFeingold]

Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

Hot air goes upwards.

I assumed he meant the handpiece gets hot just from poor insulation. The updraft I don't have a huge problem with, I haven't really noticed it too much on the JBC tweezers with similar geometry. If those metal collars DO get very hot though, being in contact with the tips, that would certainly make the problem worse.

[nanofrog]

Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

Hot air goes upwards.

I assumed he meant the handpiece gets hot just from poor insulation. The updraft I don't have a huge problem with, I haven't really noticed it too much on the JBC tweezers with similar geometry. If those metal collars DO get very hot though, being in contact with the tips, that would certainly make the problem worse.

FWIW, the JBC tweezer tips have the heating element down near the tips, so they shouldn't be very not near where your fingers operate the tool. And though I've not used them, I'd suspect that Ersa's tweezers would keep the heat down towards the tips as well in terms of where the heat is applied to the tips.

That said, I've not used them so I've no idea as per convection (i.e. hot air rising from the tips). 

Wish I could offer more info (1st hand experience). 

[wraper]

Why does it burn your fingers? Those metal collars get hot?

Hot air goes upwards.

I assumed he meant the handpiece gets hot just from poor insulation. The updraft I don't have a huge problem with, I haven't really noticed it too much on the JBC tweezers with similar geometry. If those metal collars DO get very hot though, being in contact with the tips, that would certainly make the problem worse.

Because of very short tip to grip distance which is a huge advantage BTW, hot air going up may become an issue if you hold it vertically. If you like to hold it this (unintended) way, wearing ESD gloves will make it not noticeable.

[Bud]

Getting to the point, my absolute #1 complaint about the JBC stuff is the tip wetting. I feel like I am now having to devote serious attention to the tips, constantly tinning and wiping and tinning to make sure everything is OK, where as before with my Weller WP80 I never really had to think about it. Give it a wipe and a quick tin and you're good. The JBC tips seem to start oxidizing almost immediately.

You absolutely nailed it ! I have same experience and this was the  exact reason I said a few times I do not recommend JBC.

Unlike the JBC tool controllers, this screen is angled straight up. It's matte, and the screen itself is low contrast and has a narrow viewing angle. Which means that the above is mostly what I see when I look at it. A reflection of my bench lighting.

This is another one with JBC I confirm is very annoying.

[rx8pilot]

After reading this thread and a dozen others, it seems that the JBC is a reasonable choice for users that need a lot of flexibility. The comments about tip wetting are the part that would frustrate me the most. I don't solder an enormous amount, but when I do it's a game of speed. Needing to go from 0201, to a big inductor, to 12AWG through hole on a big ground plane demands flexibility and I really like the tip choices from JBC.

Perhaps the demo method is truly the best way to go choose.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[KL27x]

Regarding tip wetting, there is one advantage to the wetting characteristics of the JBC iron.

Background: moving from cheap Velleman station to a Hakko, I went the opposite direction. I had to get used to a tip that sucks up solder... everywhere, all the time.

With a "JBC" type tip, you can wet the parts you want to use, and the solder stays there. At least that is how I used my Velleman iron.  So with a conical tip, for instance, I can put some solder on the very end, and it WON'T automatically suck up, away from the tip. Now, to be sure, after using the tip like this for a short while, it oxidizes and will no longer take solder on those dry spots without some work at it... and definitely expect a decrease in tip life.

But for sure, there are a lot of disadvantages, esp with production type soldering, drag soldering, et al.  At the time I used the Velleman, I was mostly hacking up prototypes and one-offs, and esp considering the minimal tip selection of the station, the "poor-wetting" was an overall advantage in this scenario. I had a conical that tinned only a few mm on the very end, and it worked for years, albeit the tinnable area very slowly but constantly shrunk, and it would have eventually needed replacement (if it hadn't corroded and broken apart from the inside that contacted the heater, first).

But first switching to Hakko, there were definitely some things I couldn't do, as well. Namely fine, point soldering of bodge wires without undoing the other bodge wires in the process. Until I discovered Hakko TFO tips from 1 to 3mm. With these, the Hakko does everything better, and I can use all my old tricks, plus some very great new ones. I've looked at Ersa tips, and I don't see that they have any TFO, so...

The more you get into the process, the less often you need to do bodge wires... but I can't give up TFO tips. I think I'll always have an 888 kicking around, no matter what else I ever buy. It doesn't help that ironically I find the 2.5 to 3mm TFO tips to be some of the most useful production soldering tips made.

[SVFeingold]

After pricing out an equivalent ERSA system on Tequipment, I'm torn. For a couple reasons, one is that the price pretty much ends up being the same. JBC applied a 20% discount to the demo stuff which is even below Janel Online prices. Granted the JBC price doesn't include hot air but it's likely I'd pick up a Quick station either way.

Another is that ERSA's tip selection is soooo close to being just what I need, but there are a couple oddballs from JBC I quite like. Though JBC not offering bent chisel tips for the tweezers is confusing to me. Those would be the most useful IMHO.

Somewhat frustrating in the ERSA case is that I can't seem to find a distributor for certain tips! For example, the 0.3mm heat optimized pencil tip, or the 0.4mm chisel tip are nowhere to be found.  TEquipment sells a bunch but only in 10 packs! RS Online also has a bunch but not those two, and none of the larger conical chisels. The ERSA shop is all in German and it doesn't look like they ship to the US.

Anyone in the US using ERSA gear, where do you buy tips?

[wraper]

You can order 0.3mm tip from TME. BTW eevblog members have 6% discount at tequipment if you did not know.

[nanofrog]

FWIW, you could make contact with Kurtz-Ersa USA (they have a physical presence here in the US, likely where US distributors get their stock from).

As per another source, try Murray Percival (takes you right to the i-Tool tips).

[jhenderson0107]

I recently purchased an Ersa i-Con2 station from TopLoser, then subsequently hunted for tips and accessories within the USA.  This proved surprisingly difficult.  I couldn't use the online ersa-shop.com website, since it disallows user registrations outside of the EU.  Amazon carries some Ersa tips, but with a minimum order quantity of 10/ea.  TEquipment carriers a few Ersa tips, but most must be back-ordered.  Incredulous that it was so difficult to locate tips and other common accessories online in this day-and-age, I complained to Ersa USA management via email. 

They recommended Marc Technologies (http://www.marctechnologies.biz/online-store.html#!/ERSA-Soldering-Tips/c/11819516/offset=0&sort=normal). 

I have no affiliation with that company nor have I yet ordered from them, but at least they seem to have most of the Ersa accessories available in their online store. 

[nctnico]

I recently purchased an Ersa i-Con2 station from TopLoser, then subsequently hunted for tips and accessories within the USA.  This proved surprisingly difficult. 

Sidenote: I had a similar problem with a Weller iron which was ordered from the US for some reason beyond my understanding. It is impossible to find tips for that iron in the EU! There is something fishy about how localised A-brand soldering tools are.

[SVFeingold]

Thanks nanofrog and jhenderson. Unfortunately neither of those sites seems to have the 0.4mm chisel or the 0.3mm heat optimized pencil tip - only 10 packs. Frustrating!

Are there enough folks here at EEVBLOG interested to get a group buy going? I considered today just keeping the JBC since it would be less short term hassle than returning it and putting a new kit together...until I used it to solder some bodge wires and the tip-tinning issue came back all over again. I'm starting to think the best compromise will be getting the ERSA station and then a single JBC station to run the oddball tips when needed. Fairly certain I'll be happier with the ERSA tweezers and desoldering tool. When I need the powerful hot air that could be a JBC station since it's standalone anyhow.

[rx8pilot]

OP.....

Do you think the tweezers are a decent investment? Removing small passives easier?

[Mr. Scram]

OP.....

Do you think the tweezers are a decent investment? Removing small passives easier?

I bought a pair of Weller tweezers not too long ago and though I'm a bit underwhelmed by what the money buys you in a "it doesn't look and feel like much" sense, but it's actually stupidly simple to remove passives and even to replace them. Normally it can be a pain to heat one side, then the other only to find the first side didn't come loose completely. With tweezers you just pick the part up.

Obviously, it fully depends on what you do whether it pays to buy them.

[SVFeingold]

I think they're worthwhile if you'll use them more than once in a blue moon. For instance if you're tuning component values for an oscillator, amplifier or whatever, it makes it very easy to swap out component values.   Despite being 2x40W on the JBC they do take a minute if there is a pad connected to a ground plane but so far they've been able to do the job. Those little tips aren't even capable of sinking 40W to the board, I'd be surprised if it was over 10, and surprisingly JBCs tip selection for the tweezers is downright awful.

The tip prices are of course painful ($80/set) but the ERSA is no different on pricing.

For me, it's a convenience I enjoy. Could I do the same thing with a good hot air and tweezers? Of course, but then that has risks too especially on a dense board.

On the topic of the Weller tweezers, I don't think they're very good. We have a set at work and aside from being more expensive (tweezers + stand almost $400) they just feel too flimsy to me, too much play. The cartridge idea is great though, just pull the whole "tweezer" portion out along with both tips. Simple.

EDIT: Worth mentioning that both the JBC and Weller tweezer stands are AWFUL. Either will fall out if you sneeze or look at it wrong. With the prices charged for these, and the dazzling breadth of cheap manufacturing methods out there, I'm still struggling to understand this.

The ERSA tweezer stand doesn't look terribly better but it's hard to gauge. They also seem a bit "fatter" than the JBC tweezers but without holding them I couldn't comment on ergonomics.

EDIT 2: OK I just went and played with the Weller tweezers again, after having used the JBC. I will say the Weller tweezers are actually not so bad. The construction quality is pretty good. Would be nice to have easier angle adjustments for the tips. The stand I would rate better than the JBC but if you bump the cord either will fall out.

[kTsAT]

I hope it's ok to bring this thread back to life.. it's my first post and I've read pretty much all I could find related to JBC and Ersa stations. I am still torn between both brands and maybe now after some more time passed, people might have come up with different views / opinions.
So I'd basically be interested into the JBC dmpse or the Ersa i-con vario 4, they pretty much cost the same while the Ersa comes with hot air, the JBC doesn't. This wouldn't be a big deal since I'd add the Quick hot air station to the JBC dmpse. I also found the idea of splitting the vario 4 into a vario 2 (hot air and x-tool) and i-con v2 (i-tool and tweezers) a good idea.
So, I was basically already about buying the JBC station since I've heard a lot of good things about it and technically it offers everything I'd ever need but digging deeper and reading eevblog topics I've read quite often, that tip life and tip wetting isn't that good. This is of course a major deciding factor, but then again, in general JBC seems to be the top brand.. When talking to someone recently and when I told him that I might get the Ersa instead of the JBC he just said "I shouldn't buy a VW instead of a BMW", that's of course exagerated, but still, JBC has a certain reputation.. I am more in production than repair, work is still about 50/50 tht/smd.. so I am mainly looking for the last push into the "right" direction to make a decision between these 2 / 3 options. Any info or decision help would be much appreciated.