KSGER 2.1S r3 controller with defective STM32 processor

[cosmin1]

Hi.
Started the discussion in other tread, but i think it's better to treat this problem separately.
I just received this KSGER controller from China, already defective.
Actually it still works, but the STM32F101 processor it heats to 100 Celsius right after powering on.
Is there any chance to copy the firmware to a new STM32F101 and replace this one?
Or is there any custom firmware compatible with STM32F101RBT6 so i could replace the processor?
Thank you.

This is the model: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32790819535.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.65e44c4dV0jLHZ

[MarkMLl]

What makes you think it's the microcontroller chip that's defective? It could equally be the power controller, or a firmware fault.

At that price it's barely worth fiddling, but if you were to get an ST-Link style programmer e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32849743354.html you might find that you were able to read the existing firmware and write it to a replacement chip.

That's also the type of programmer you need if you want to e.g. write an Arduino-style loader to a "Blue Pill" module, so the expense wouldn't be wasted.

MarkMLl

[wraper]

First check if it's powered by proper voltage.

[S. Petrukhin]

Check the short circuit here

[MarkMLl]

Very well spotted.

MarkMLl

[BlackICE]

Yes great catch and example of typical quality control, or lack thereof, for products from China. I don't work with STM controllers and to lazy to look up the datasheet, so does anyone know what pins are shorted and is it fatal to the chip?

[S. Petrukhin]

Yes great catch and example of typical quality control, or lack thereof, for products from China. I don't work with STM controllers and to lazy to look up the datasheet, so does anyone know what pins are shorted and is it fatal to the chip?

These are the PC10, PC11 pins. I don't know how they are used in the circuit diagram. If they are both used as a rail-to-rail output, they can heat the chip. Although, in my practice, a short circuit of the output in STM32 always led to the failure of this output. And I have never observed crystal heating, even at the maximum output frequency at the outputs, directly controlling the MOSFET gate.

[BlackICE]

The PCB looks like it is hand soldered and not cleaned up too well. I see a lot of flux still on some joints.

[bson]

Check the short circuit here

And that diode might need replacing...

[floobydust]

On previous version controllers 2.1S, STM32 three outputs are tied together to get more drive for the buzzer.

OP mentioned a bad connection to the resistors R3, R6  3.3 Vreg feedback  and the MCU likely got overvoltaged? He'd fixed it to get 3.3V but the MCU died I think.

Almost finished drawing a schematic for this controller board.
If anyone has one, to make a few measurements where traces go, let me know.

[S. Petrukhin]

On previous version controllers 2.1S, STM32 three outputs are tied together to get more drive for the buzzer.

OP mentioned a bad connection to the resistors R3, R6  3.3 Vreg feedback  and the MCU likely got overvoltaged? He'd fixed it to get 3.3V but the MCU died I think.

Almost finished drawing a schematic for this controller board.
If anyone has one, to make a few measurements where traces go, let me know.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qLmAF7NNqVy2zQ2gsIhTnrgWpaj_WG1P?usp=sharing

[floobydust]

Thanks for that link. I did not see 2.1S r3 sch there?
I have made this DRAFT schematic for this 2.1S r3 board that cosmin1 posted pictures of.
But some traces/vias I cannot see to follow them. If people can tell me the MCU pin or just markup the page, the I can finish it and will update this post.

[S. Petrukhin]

Thanks for that link. I did not see 2.1S r3 sch there?
I have made this DRAFT schematic for this 2.1S r3 board that cosmin1 posted pictures of.
But some traces/vias I cannot see to follow them. If people can tell me the MCU pin or just markup the page, the I can finish it and will update this post.

Does it make sense to torment yourself by studying a not very good scheme?
Take a look at the R20 - why are they sucking 300 uA out of the battery? And there are still some questionable solutions.

[floobydust]

I think the chinese sell all their mistakes, their bad boards even after they build 5,000 of them 
It took two years to fix the overheating 3.3V LDO 

I do not fix the KSGER design errors in the schematics.
The 2.1S controller r2, r3 has design mistakes - yes including the battery killing R20 and JBC traces (r2). I include it all in the schematics, and put a note mentioning the problem. I draw the schema for people to repair their boards.

We do not have an open-source controller that is compatible with the KSGER versions, that has all the hardware errors fixed.

[S. Petrukhin]

I think the chinese sell all their mistakes, their bad boards even after they build 5,000 of them 
It took two years to fix the overheating 3.3V LDO 

I do not fix the KSGER design errors in the schematics.
The 2.1S controller r2, r3 has design mistakes - yes including the battery killing R20 and JBC traces (r2). I include it all in the schematics, and put a note mentioning the problem. I draw the schema for people to repair their boards.

We do not have an open-source controller that is compatible with the KSGER versions, that has all the hardware errors fixed.

Yes, the Chinese are often surprised. It seems that they can create good things, but every time there is some error in them. They have science and high technology, but they don't achieve quality.

I have a Rigol MSO5074-a good device, a complex development, but why they did not put load resistors on the LVDS receiver side of the logic analyzer is not clear.  And at the KSGER thermofen so in general the wires are connected incorrectly.

Probably, rapid progress does not provide a reliable Foundation, which is developed by long experience.

[MarkMLl]

It seems that they can create good things, but every time there is some error in them. They have science and high technology, but they don't achieve quality.

But despite that, they have a space program.

I think that the only possible interpretation is that the PRC's government is prepared to be ruthlessly brutal in enforcing quality control when it thinks that something matters. It's unfortunate that protection of Western-owned intellectual property and branded designs don't get the same attention.

MarkMLl

[S. Petrukhin]

It seems that they can create good things, but every time there is some error in them. They have science and high technology, but they don't achieve quality.

But despite that, they have a space program.

I think that the only possible interpretation is that the PRC's government is prepared to be ruthlessly brutal in enforcing quality control when it thinks that something matters. It's unfortunate that protection of Western-owned intellectual property and branded designs don't get the same attention.

MarkMLl

I already spoke in this forum... As someone who has lived in the USSR for a long time, I understand the essence of socialism/communism.
In this system, there is no intellectual property, no profit, only recognition and rewards, not money.

All people work for the good of society, all inventions for the good of humanity, not for profit. All developments in the USSR were always open (except for the military), people shared their inventions with joy to make other people feel better. All schematic diagrams were open and always included in the documentation with a full description.

This is a system where there are no rich and poor. In China, this system has been slightly changed, and there are already many rich people there. I do not know how they organize it and how it is embedded in the Communist idea.

[MarkMLl]

I already spoke in this forum... As someone who has lived in the USSR for a long time, I understand the essence of socialism/communism.
In this system, there is no intellectual property, no profit, only recognition and rewards, not money.

All people work for the good of society, all inventions for the good of humanity, not for profit. All developments in the USSR were always open (except for the military), people shared their inventions with joy to make other people feel better. All schematic diagrams were open and always included in the documentation with a full description.

This is a system where there are no rich and poor. In China, this system has been slightly changed, and there are already many rich people there. I do not know how they organize it and how it is embedded in the Communist idea.

Having all citizens working towards the common good is of course orthordox Leninism... and in fact there are few of any political persuasion who would be brave enough to speak against the idea, even if they have vastly divergent ideas on how to get there.

But Hell hath no fury like a Chinese engineer who has found his product ripped off by one of his compatriots, irrespective of whether the design is really his or has been appropriated from a Western company for whom he has done contract work.

However I feel that this distracts from my point that China has what appears to be a fairly successful space program, which implies that when they have their attention appropriately focussed they /can/ get the quality assurance right.

In actual fact I recall an interesting story that goes with that (please don't anybody ask for a reference... via Wp and a chain of various other stuff IIRC). In the 90s(?) there was a collaborative project between the PRC and the USA that involved launching a payload using a Long March rocket. The launch failed, and somebody in NASA told the Chinese /why/ it had failed. When he got home he found himself in serious trouble: not so much for telling the Chinese what had happened, but for revealing that it was possible to deduce such a thing from the telemetry which had apparently not occurred to them.

MarkMLl

[S. Petrukhin]

I already spoke in this forum... As someone who has lived in the USSR for a long time, I understand the essence of socialism/communism.
In this system, there is no intellectual property, no profit, only recognition and rewards, not money.

All people work for the good of society, all inventions for the good of humanity, not for profit. All developments in the USSR were always open (except for the military), people shared their inventions with joy to make other people feel better. All schematic diagrams were open and always included in the documentation with a full description.

This is a system where there are no rich and poor. In China, this system has been slightly changed, and there are already many rich people there. I do not know how they organize it and how it is embedded in the Communist idea.

Having all citizens working towards the common good is of course orthordox Leninism... and in fact there are few of any political persuasion who would be brave enough to speak against the idea, even if they have vastly divergent ideas on how to get there.

But Hell hath no fury like a Chinese engineer who has found his product ripped off by one of his compatriots, irrespective of whether the design is really his or has been appropriated from a Western company for whom he has done contract work.

However I feel that this distracts from my point that China has what appears to be a fairly successful space program, which implies that when they have their attention appropriately focussed they /can/ get the quality assurance right.

In actual fact I recall an interesting story that goes with that (please don't anybody ask for a reference... via Wp and a chain of various other stuff IIRC). In the 90s(?) there was a collaborative project between the PRC and the USA that involved launching a payload using a Long March rocket. The launch failed, and somebody in NASA told the Chinese /why/ it had failed. When he got home he found himself in serious trouble: not so much for telling the Chinese what had happened, but for revealing that it was possible to deduce such a thing from the telemetry which had apparently not occurred to them.

MarkMLl

Yes, they have a space program with good success, and there are many other achievements. The Chinese are doing great, they are developing very intensively, they are hardworking. But I think they have an excessive formality in the organization and some irresponsibility. They do not hesitate to make outright trash, do not strive for pride in their product. But this is already starting to change, more and more they have really high-quality products. It was the same in the USSR - we had modern and serious weapons, we had great planes, but washing machines and almost everything household was disgusting. And our planned economy was terrible because any low-quality product was still consumed, there was no incentive to make it better.

[DavidAlfa]

Yes, the Chinese are often surprised. It seems that they can create good things, but every time there is some error in them. They have science and high technology, but they don't achieve quality.

I have a Rigol MSO5074-a good device, a complex development, but why they did not put load resistors on the LVDS receiver side of the logic analyzer is not clear.  And at the KSGER thermofen so in general the wires are connected incorrectly.

Probably, rapid progress does not provide a reliable Foundation, which is developed by long experience.

Don't get it wrong. Chinese are like all other countries, you get what you pay for.
Buying a $30 soldering station, that  includes aluminium casing, oled screen, handle, iron tips... Don't expect a miracle!
The fact that it works is already surprising  .
There're different target markets. The high quality, expensive ones... and the aliexpress market.
Tons of cheap stuff,  but don't compare them to what you usually would buy for 500% it's price.
Since Aliexpress targets that market, the engineers try to low the cost to the minimum.
When comparing options, let's say you find a soldering station for $28 and another for $30.
From the average user, maybe the ~70% just want to play with arduino and such, but aren't electronics themselves, so will buy the cheapest.
So the numbers make the rules. More quality for $5 more? Or $5 less and sell a lot more that the rivals?
People like us might do a more in-depth research trying to identify the working parts and difference the good vs the crap ones.
Unless they make pictures of the internals, who knows? Nowadays they also do that trick, rise the price $10 to look like it's much better, then you receive the same crap.
So that's the problem. It's not easy to buy with confidence.

But in the quality market, you can get a Jabe UD-1200 clone for $180, half the JBC price, includimg some iron tips (JBCs will costs $30+ each one).
But a you see, the price is not in the same league!


I must admit that they could do much better with some research. Maybe spending $2 more they could fix a lot of things.
But, just looking at the firmware... They don't even use the hardware peripherals. They drive the SPI devices by software and such things.
That means, they don't want to lose any time in development. Take already made code that works (and will work on any device because it's software), and build the firmware with copy & paste.
That leads to what we often see... horrendous performance from a relative powerful MCU, with a screen that have tearing lines and 5HZ refresh rate, laggy controls...

[MarkMLl]

do not strive for pride in their product.

Perhaps the problem is that their sole metric is that people buy it, rather than that people are pleased with it.

Don't get me wrong: I have enormous respect for the way that China is progressing... much like many people in the West had enormous respect for the way the USSR was progressing until they realised what a monster Stalin was.

And I remember when Japan, and before that Hong Kong, unloaded trash on Western markets...

MarkMLl

[S. Petrukhin]

Yes, the Chinese are often surprised. It seems that they can create good things, but every time there is some error in them. They have science and high technology, but they don't achieve quality.

I have a Rigol MSO5074-a good device, a complex development, but why they did not put load resistors on the LVDS receiver side of the logic analyzer is not clear.  And at the KSGER thermofen so in general the wires are connected incorrectly.

Probably, rapid progress does not provide a reliable Foundation, which is developed by long experience.

Don't get it wrong. Chinese are like all other countries, you get what you pay for.
Buying a $30 soldering station, that  includes aluminium casing, oled screen, handle, iron tips... Don't expect a miracle!
The fact that it works is already surprising  .
There're different target markets. The high quality, expensive ones... and the aliexpress market.
Tons of cheap stuff,  but don't compare them to what you usually would buy for 500% it's price.
Since Aliexpress targets that market, the engineers try to low the cost to the minimum.
When comparing options, let's say you find a soldering station for $28 and another for $30.
From the average user, maybe the ~70% just want to play with arduino and such, but aren't electronics themselves, so will buy the cheapest.
So the numbers make the rules. More quality for $5 more? Or $5 less and sell a lot more that the rivals?
People like us might do a more in-depth research trying to identify the working parts and difference the good vs the crap ones.
Unless they make pictures of the internals, who knows? Nowadays they also do that trick, rise the price $10 to look like it's much better, then you receive the same crap.
So that's the problem. It's not easy to buy with confidence.

But in the quality market, you can get a Jabe UD-1200 clone for $180, half the JBC price, includimg some iron tips (JBCs will costs $30+ each one).
But a you see, the price is not in the same league!


I must admit that they could do much better with some research. Maybe spending $2 more they could fix a lot of things.
But, just looking at the firmware... They don't even use the hardware peripherals. They drive the SPI devices by software and such things.
That means, they don't want to lose any time in development. Take already made code that works (and will work on any device because it's software), and build the firmware with copy & paste.
That leads to what we often see... horrendous performance from a relative powerful MCU, with a screen that have tearing lines and 5HZ refresh rate, laggy controls...

I studied at the Institute the theory of how to occupy the segment of expensive goods. Almost all expensive products do not give a tangible advantage, which can be estimated by such an increase in price. They do not give properties, they give a sense of satisfaction, status, show-offs, demonstrate success. Of course, there should be a sufficient level of quality, appearance and packaging.

After all, in the modern world, we all go on about the hucksters: rather, rather, work harder, earn more, buy yourself at a high price, show how cool others are, climb up. What's the use of it? If people don't buy expensive thing, if a modest man, the stars in the sky will not fall, the Moon not falls and the Sun goes not out.  Just don't think that I will soon become a monk and renounce all worldly things.  I'm just as susceptible. But I like Henry Ford's advice better: sell a lot for cheap and then you will become rich, and not a little for expensive.

Chinese guys are very smart. They do not dig in their own sandbox, they greedily absorb all the world's experience, science, and techniques. Most recently, it was a low-tech agricultural country. They were not stopped by the great competition of strong players. I have great respect for China's success and wish them development and happiness. However, it will be good if all people are happy.

[S. Petrukhin]

And I remember when Japan, and before that Hong Kong, unloaded trash on Western markets...

When we changed the system in the USSR, we were taught that freedom of choice is the best thing, that it is better when the buyer decides what products to be on the market.

Please tell me, you have been living in a market economy for a very long time - has the Western buyer formed a desire to buy the best quality? Do you have immunity, brought up over the years, from fraud in the market? Is it possible to attract a Western buyer with a low price?

[MarkMLl]

Please tell me, you have been living in a market economy for a very long time - has the Western buyer formed a desire to buy the best quality? Do you have immunity, brought up over the years, from fraud in the market? Is it possible to attract a Western buyer with a low price?

(Chuckle) I am possibly not the best person to ask.

By and large, a substantial proportion of consumers are swayed by "bling": you might have noticed the extent to which products are emblazoned with the name of the manufacturer even when the brand is known to be trash. I'm prepared to go out on a limb and suggest that that's /particularly/ the case with people who are (a) younger and (b) less prosperous and educated... in short the very people who would benefit from spending their limited resources on robust clothes, decent tools and so on.

There is very little individual immunity to fraud in the market. Instead in Europe there are consumer protection regulations which have to be met before something can be placed on the market (which is where the ubiquitous ce mark comes into play), while in the USA there's much less up-front regulation and disgruntled consumers tend to either sue or send death threats depending on their political inclination.

MarkMLl

[DavidAlfa]

Totally agree with the brand reputation issue.
They smash you with advertising until you definitely associate their name with first-class category.
Not my case, but sure I know a lot of people how do.
I'm much more objective, a glossy finish or high social reputation won't cheat me.
For example, here in Spain the top reputation car makers are german.
They never break down, never have issues, are absolutely perfect.
That's how media sells them and most people do.
And it breaks, they won't tell anyone, what a shame if they know!
If you research a bit more, you'll find the usual problems with automatic boxes, clutches, cylinder heads, injectors,  turbos, electronics... like most brands.
But some people are so arrogant that will say that having to open the engine apart and replace half of the internals is considered "maintenance" in their german.
Now, if other brand breaks a $20 rubber hose, they will say it's crap...

For example, JBC, they are well made. But hell, a linear transformer and a nice made rubber handle doesn't worth $600!