Author Topic: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment  (Read 121466 times)

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Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #325 on: October 07, 2017, 07:32:34 pm »
Not your average instrument for sure, interesting piece of gear  :)

Glad you got lucky with the repair and got yourself a good deal in the end  ! :-+
 

Offline neo

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #326 on: October 07, 2017, 11:26:19 pm »
Do you know why it is so complex and nice? Back in the 70s when they sold these units they cost between 12-17k depending on the options.

Ah yes, I am sure 15K or so was a very considerable amount back then !
amazing they can bought for so cheap these days... definitely want one ! :)

Quote
This one model of counter had over a 20 year life that i think stands as proof of his genius and commitment to the design.

20 years ?!  Not in Nixie form I guess ? I gather they made a revised version of this model, that used an LCD display ? I guess that helped keep it on the market for so long.
I bet the LCD versions sell for much more, because they look more modern, even though deep down its gutts are the same as the old original Nixie version ?

That's great... this way we can have a super duper counter for cheap, and at the same time enjoy these lovely Nixei tubes....

Definitely worth investigating a way to replace that custom schmidt trigger can, to extend the life of these lovely beasts...
The HP page below indicates the original price was US$5340.00 (about US$100k today) and it seems it used Nixies until the end. Quite remarkable.

http://historycenter.agilent.com/exhibit1

The advertisement i saw said 15k with all options, and no it was not nixie tubes all the way in the 80s they switched over to LEDs.

Admittedly at the price point of these beasts if someone asked for nixie tubes and was willing to pay a bit more i'm sure they would consider it an option.
A hopeless addict (and slave) to TEA and a firm believer that high frequency is little more than modern hoodoo.
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #327 on: October 08, 2017, 12:12:29 am »
That website looks like the official Agilent/ HP website, so if even THEY can't get their own product history right... I am worried !  LOL

So I guess this needs more digging.... 
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #328 on: October 08, 2017, 01:27:07 am »
Thanks for the details Pat.   I wouldn't dream of fixing these complex beasts without the service manual, that's for sure...

Indeed!  It's nice that so many of the manuals are available as scans, often for free from HP/Agilent/Keysight, BAMA or KO4BB, but sometimes you 'get what you pay for' in that their resolution leaves a lot to be desired.  For guaranteed good scans, Artek Manuals is a safe bet - Dave's stuff is top notch in that department, and considering the effort involved in doing the scans, he sells them for a song.

One thing I always try to do is to get an actual paper manual for every piece of gear I get.  Scans (if clear) are great to have, but nothing beats the huge fold-out schematics in the original manuals, and I find it much easier to flip back and forth with paper pages rather than scrolling hither and yon constantly with a scan, especially for something like the 5340A where roughly the last quarter of the manual is all fold outs.  Yeah, you can print scans, but then you often get to play cut-and-paste to put the pages together if it's going to big enough to be legible.

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Now that you have the adequate extender board you will be able to work much more comfortably but from what you say indeed it looks like it's a done deal sadly  :(

Yep.  Now to clear the bench a bit and get back to it...   |O

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I am starting to get the impression that this particular model is well known, and not just in the US, so maybe at some point, as people collect them, there will be enough people affected by this problem to warrant a collective effort in designing a replacement. This RF stuff is a specialist job of course but maybe there are enough collective knowledge in this forum or out on the web, to allow one to embark into designing a replacement...

That would be a nice little project for RF design aficionados !  Maybe we could ask Shariar/ The Signal Path, and Alan / w2aew what they think of it from a design perspective, if it's feasible or not, realistically... that could make for an interesting video for them to do !   :)  I think I might contact them about it... both being in the US, I guess it would not cost too much for someone in the US, owing on of these machines, to ship it to them (along with the much required extended card of course, and a copy of the printed service manual if not available in PDF form for them to download). They have the academic and practical knowledge to tackle this, or at least provide us with a well informed insight, as well as the expensive equipment required to play with this thing at will.

Hell... the two of them know each other, why not combine their expertise in a joint video ?! A co-produced video... I guess they live too far apart from each other to actually meet physically, the US being a vast place, but they could still communicate via e-mail to discuss this.

That might be an interesting project for one or both.  I need to dig a bit more into what that IC does in the circuit; perhaps there might be a simple modification that would enable something modern to be used in its place.  That would be nice, if so!  If the replacement board I got has the same issue and doesn't fix it, I will likely start with an inquiry on the HP mailing list to see if any of them have any ideas.

Quote
I just downloaded a copy of the service manual... sadly 99% of it is impossible to read, the PDF is massively corrupted somehow. I could only figure out a few snippets here and there, but OMG I see that this instrument came with GPIB ?!!   :o  And the manual is date 1975 !  Sure, HP invented this bus so I understand that they were the very first to implement it on their instruments, before other manufacturers adopted it, but still, 1975 ?!! There was not even an 8 bit micro to run such a thing back then, I think !  Had a quick look on Google to refresh my memory, found an article from 1974 announcing a super duper 4 bit MCU...

The PDF was really too fucked up so I couldn't see how they did it...   my assumption is that they did not use an 8 micro which did not even exist probably, or elese they might have used it to control the front panel and give their instrument a competitive edge in terms of user interface.... so my guess is that they designed their own stand-alone bus controller, a big state machine, which would not necessitate a micro ti run it ?  I am intrigued !

I just did a quick search of my usual spots (Keysight, BAMA and KO4BB), but none of them seem to have a PDF of the manual, so apparently there's no easily available clear copy.

The HPIB apparently debuted in 1972:  http://www.hp9825.com/html/hpib.html
My understanding is that in fact HP got into the computer business in an effort to provide automation with their test instruments.  Ironic that 30-40 years later the tail grew so big that it parted company with the dog and went out on its own.

Quote
Also saw that this beast is really complex, found a snippet about a PLL ?!

That machine was indeed a marvel of engineering compared to my French nixie counters or the same era !

I want one of those, definitely, working or not !!!  :D :D :D :D

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me just how much they were able to do with what technology they had.  Those early instruments are stuffed full of circuitry, unlike modern stuff where there's one IC with a gazillion pins & 37 character long part number, an LCD screen, and a power supply inside an otherwise empty enclosure (ok, I know that's something of an exaggeration, but not TOO much of one!)

I hope you manage to find one (working, or at worst only needing minor repair).  It is certainly a very fascinating piece of hardware!  I believe it was introduced in 1973, and at the time had a list price of $5300.00.  Add another $400 for the OCXO, $100 for the inputs on the rear panel (useful for fixed test setups in racks, I suppose), and another $350 for the HPIB option.  It was not cheap, which is likely why so many still exist - it's built like a tank.  http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1973-04.pdf

-Pat
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #329 on: October 08, 2017, 01:28:48 am »
I'm pretty sure that with the limited probing I was able to do while it was plugged in that I had signal at U9's gazinta, and a lot of nothing at it's gazoutta.

Hey, Pat, watch out with all those highfalutin, technical terms. You must think you're talking to a bunch of engineers or something. :-DD

My apologies!   :P

I'll try to keep that in mind for future posts.   :-DD

-Pat
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Online edavid

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #330 on: October 08, 2017, 01:33:33 am »
The HP page below indicates the original price was US$5340.00 (about US$100k today) and it seems it used Nixies until the end. Quite remarkable.

http://historycenter.agilent.com/exhibit1

No, that is wrong.  There was a later LED version (see photo).
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #331 on: October 08, 2017, 01:45:27 am »
Do you know why it is so complex and nice? Back in the 70s when they sold these units they cost between 12-17k depending on the options.

Ah yes, I am sure 15K or so was a very considerable amount back then !
amazing they can bought for so cheap these days... definitely want one ! :)

Quote
This one model of counter had over a 20 year life that i think stands as proof of his genius and commitment to the design.

20 years ?!  Not in Nixie form I guess ? I gather they made a revised version of this model, that used an LCD display ? I guess that helped keep it on the market for so long.
I bet the LCD versions sell for much more, because they look more modern, even though deep down its gutts are the same as the old original Nixie version ?

That's great... this way we can have a super duper counter for cheap, and at the same time enjoy these lovely Nixei tubes....

Definitely worth investigating a way to replace that custom schmidt trigger can, to extend the life of these lovely beasts...

They had nixies up till 1982 or 1983, IIRC, then switched to seven segment LEDs - would need to look at my catalogs to find out for certain when the transition was.  In '86 list price for the LED version was $12,500; +$750 if you wanted the OXCO; +$200 for the rear connector option; +$600 for a frequency extension that let it measure up to 23GHz; $500 for an input protection limiter; and $550 for HPIB.

I just looked at my catalogs; it appears up to the 1994 one, but is gone from the 1996.  (I don't have a copy of the '95 catalog yet).  By the 90s, it was listed as a 'mature' product, meaning it was not a regular production unit, but if you had one written into your certified test procedure and it died and a replacement was needed to save gazillions of dollars of recertifying a new test setup with a different model of counter, they'd build you one.  In '94 it listed for $23,500/$1200 for OCXO/$325 for rear panel input /$760 for range extension/$1300 for input limiter/$1100 for HPIB.

It certainly had an impressive run!!

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #332 on: October 08, 2017, 02:13:25 am »
OK !  So we have it all figured out for certain now, thanks ! :)

So indeed Agilent was wrong on their own website talking of their own products, scary.

I will have to be careful not to buy an LED version by mistake ! I mean, for example if I come across a unit that doesn't power up at all or with nothing on the display and the seller is unable or unwilling to help figure it out...

Would also have to be careful that it does come with HPIB, can't believe that it was not standard on such an expensive and state of the art instrument !  :o

As for the OCXO I don't really care since I would use an external reference so.... I hope it does have the usual external 10MHz input as standard...


Artek yes, very good indeed ! A year ago I purchased a manual from them for one of my old scopes, a Tektronix rack mount 5111.  The schematics I found on the net were shitty so I searched ebay and come across an ad from them. Didn't know anything about them back then, but it was very affordable (even with the shipping to France) with regard to the quality that was promised, so I didn't have much to lose, went for it, hoping for the best and expecting the worst as always with something new...  I was hardly disappointed, 5 star work  indeed !  :D   
It's only later that I figured he was well known, even found him lurking on the "TekScope" Yahoo forum/mailing-list.

I would buy manuals from him anytime for sure !

But as Pat said nothing beats a proper original printed manual... that's why I was overjoyed to have them with my too Nixie counters, and also my old WaveTek 75 waveform generator.

Failing that, I think I might invest in a little A3 format inkjet printer. I remember seeing one from Samsung for very little money. Sure it must cost an arm with the cost of ink, as always with consumer grade inkjet printers, but it would not be much of an issue since it would only be used every now and then, and only for BW printing (printer had a distinct and large capacity black cartridge ISTR). One advantage of a printed PDF is that you can handle them "carelessly" on the bench and write on them at will to take notes of voltages or other information you gather while probing around to debug the instrument... which I would obviously not do on an original manual !

Obviously having both the paper manual and a nice PDF with an A3 printer would be ideal...


And I quite liked the gazinta and gazoutta .... had me wondering for a bit but once I had sussed it, made me laugh, quite fond of them already, please don't discard them in future posts, that will be your trademark !    :D   :-DD
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 02:54:24 am by Vince »
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #333 on: October 08, 2017, 02:51:10 am »
I will have to be careful not to buy an LED version by mistake ! I mean, for example if I come across a unit that doesn't power up at all or with nothing on the display and the seller is unable or unwilling to help figure it out...

Precisely. In low-res photos they can sometimes be fuzzy enough to look somewhat similar.

And I quite liked the gazinta and gazoutta .... had me wondering for a bit when once I had sussed it, made me laugh, quite fond of them already, please don't discard them in future posts, that will be your trademark !    :D   :-DD

LOL! Yeah, just giving Pat a hard time once in a while. I'm sure he's got more where that came from. :-+
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Offline neo

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #334 on: October 08, 2017, 03:25:42 am »
As for the OCXO I don't really care since I would use an external reference so.... I hope it does have the usual external 10MHz input as standard...

It does in fact have 10MHz reference in as standard, at least as far as i know.
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #335 on: October 08, 2017, 04:02:58 am »
Vince -

The transition to the LED display seems to have taken place between 1982 and 1983 - the former catalog shows and describes nixies and the latter LEDs.  You're probably safe with serial number prefixes of 21xxAyyyyy and lower.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #336 on: October 08, 2017, 04:10:36 am »
As for the OCXO I don't really care since I would use an external reference so.... I hope it does have the usual external 10MHz input as standard...

It does in fact have a 10MHz reference input; it needs a sine or square wave at ~1.5V p-p into a 1k ohm input impedance.  "Normal' versions of the counter have a crystal oscillator for a time base; Opt 001 is the high stability OCXO.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #337 on: October 08, 2017, 10:09:04 am »
EGG 550-1 radiometer/photometer.

I use it with a fiber optic attachment to map the 360 degree illumination of LEDs.
Got it cheap as one of the Nixie tube was dead. Turned out it was the driver chip (DS8880).
Five minutes with the soldering iron and it has been in use for more than 10 years now.

Not Nixie but Panaplex... and very nice too!  :-+
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Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #338 on: October 08, 2017, 03:42:42 pm »
Thanks for the details Pat and Neo  :)
 

Offline neo

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #339 on: October 08, 2017, 04:20:51 pm »
Thanks for the details Pat and Neo  :)

No problem, i like to talk about electronics, especially to a grateful audience.
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Offline richnormand

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #340 on: October 08, 2017, 06:05:29 pm »
EGG 550-1 radiometer/photometer.

I use it with a fiber optic attachment to map the 360 degree illumination of LEDs.
Got it cheap as one of the Nixie tube was dead. Turned out it was the driver chip (DS8880).
Five minutes with the soldering iron and it has been in use for more than 10 years now.

Not Nixie but Panaplex... and very nice too!  :-+

You are right, close cousins to Nixie :)
http://imajeenyus.com/vacuum/20100814_panaplex/index.shtml

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Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #341 on: October 08, 2017, 06:12:28 pm »
Wow thanks for the link, that close up picture of this Panaplex is beautiful !  :D

Looks like some people actually manage to DIY their own panaplex ?!

Jeez.... maybe someone one day will start upo a little company to make new Panaplex displays again, no problem with supplies and speculation  on prices any more, how marvelous that would be...
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #342 on: October 08, 2017, 06:40:27 pm »
I agree far superior to nixie tubes anyday and brighter than LED's.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #343 on: October 09, 2017, 01:51:09 am »
Yeah, Panaplex seem to be a nice combination of characteristics from VFD (contrast), Nixie (amber glow), and segmented LED (variety of shapes in a single plane) displays.
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Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #344 on: October 09, 2017, 05:06:05 am »
They also ha ve the advantage of allowing very flat/compact package even for large sizes !

Maybe we should rename this thread "glowing displays" LOL  Nixies represent most of them in volume, but the other kinds of glowing are sexy too... and it would seem a bit ridiculous to start a new thread for VFD and another for Numitrons and another for Panaplex etc.... no ?......    :-//
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #345 on: October 09, 2017, 07:26:36 am »
Yeah, I was thinking "glowing displays," too. I'm not sure if the OP is around to change it, though.
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Online macboy

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #346 on: October 09, 2017, 02:12:18 pm »
Next, the Metrix DX446A
I see a Metrix MX-54C in one of those photos. If you haven't found it already, check out this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/metrix-mx56c-bk-precision-5390-multimeter-teardown/ . It has a lot of information on these meters, including links to data logging software and calibration software.
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #347 on: October 09, 2017, 02:57:27 pm »
Yep Macboy, I know about this thread, I participated in it a year ago or so... just replied to your post there a minute ago ! :)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 03:00:21 pm by Vince »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #348 on: October 09, 2017, 03:23:01 pm »
Yeah, I was thinking "glowing displays," too. I'm not sure if the OP is around to change it, though.

How about 'Cold Cathode displays' - we don't want to get overrun with nasty LED and fading VFD and OLED ones. :box:

(Although I guess LEDs are technically cold cathode).
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Lets see your Nixie Tube equipment
« Reply #349 on: October 09, 2017, 05:30:40 pm »
This just showed up on my ebay Nixie Counter search alert.  Looks like he got a good picture just as he let the smoke out... :o

 


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