Author Topic: More on soldering microscopes  (Read 5926 times)

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Offline tony359Topic starter

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More on soldering microscopes
« on: April 10, 2022, 05:13:58 pm »
Hi all,

I'd like to get a microscope for SMD work and I've spent a bit of time reading reviews and posts on this forum.

I appreciate this is quite subjective of course so that adds to the confusion!

Let me share my thoughts with you and hopefully I can pick your brains for a wider view.

First, I do not have space for a bulky item and I don't do SMD very often. This seems to favour a digital solution rather than an optical one.
Second, I have a 27" monitor on my bench so I guess I could do without the small 7" monitor if that helps keeping the price lower (see above, I don't do SMD very often but I am a believer of the "buy well, buy once" - but no need to get the £500 one!

One thing I dislike of the Andonstar or even the Amscope 400 is that they are fixed zoom (well, you can buy different eyepieces for the Amscope but I understand they are useless?).
Yes, I can fix the Andonstar to the ceiling to have a wider picture but...

Considering I do not need a screen, is there a HDMI-only model which features some sort of optical zoom - or even an optical scope similar to the Amscope 400 but with some actual options to install different lens for different magnification?
If not, is there a good HDMI-only scope which is recommended by the community? I really don't want to pay for the 7" screen if I am not going to use it!

Thank you!
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2022, 06:23:31 pm »
As you already figured, avoid the USB-only ones. The lag is usually just too much for soldering, and the image quality is often crap.

One factor to consider is auto-focus. It may look like a fancy gadget that you can do without, but constantly having to manuallly refocus when you just move the board around can get old pretty fast. In particular, when you have a relatively high magnification factor, you'll need to refocus often.

My own solution to this a few years ago (that I still use) was to "recycle" a JVC camcorder (full HD, with 40x optical zoom and autofocus), and add a barlow lens in front of the optics. I take the HDMI signal out and it goes to a small full HD monitor (14") on my bench (you can of course use any kind of monitor.) But I can also take pictures and video from the camcorder. It's a bit of a DIY solution, but it works fairly well. (I was surprised that the added barlow lens didn't hinder the autofocus system.) I've bought one of those microscope cameras on Aliexpress later on, but I still like my original setup better. It's a camera module, plus separate optics which is pretty bulky. The optical zoom is manual (which is not that practical) and the embedded digital zoom of the camera is not that good.

You can find the same with autofocus, but much more expensive. Just look for "hdmi microscope" on Aliexpress, you'll find a bunch of stuff.

And then there are the more polished solutions, such as the Tagarno microscopes: https://tagarno.com (might be off-budget, don't know...)

You can have a look at this:

There are a few other videos on that topic on EEVBlog, including with one Tagarno, IIRC.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 06:27:36 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2022, 06:34:06 pm »
Thanks!

After posting this I ended up on EEVBlog #1125 as well! And indeed it seems to be what I am looking for: zoom, no monitor, good quality, multiple lens available.

Now, as usual with AliExpress I see a variety of those "Elkins" cameras. Some are cheaper than others. I am still investigating but wondering if we know anything about the "real" and "fake" Elkins - is there a "real Elkins" in the first place?

I am looking at this: Aliexpress Link

The old camera solution is pretty interesting indeed. Only issue would be to find one which can focus at short distances when at maximum zoom. Which one do you use?
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2022, 06:53:44 pm »
Now, as usual with AliExpress I see a variety of those "Elkins" cameras. Some are cheaper than others. I am still investigating but wondering if we know anything about the "real" and "fake" Elkins - is there a "real Elkins" in the first place?

They pretty much all use the same camera modules, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern anyway. Those either have a Sony or Panasonic sensor inside. Just avoid the fishy too cheap to be reasonable crap, and you should be OK. But all of the ones with autofocus do have a Sony sensor if I'm not mistaken.

I am looking at this: Aliexpress Link

Yes, this is a typical one. This isn't an autofocus one though as far as I can tell, so be aware of that. That might again not look like a big deal - after all, you might think that the purely optical stereo microscopes do not have any autofocus - but manually focusing using an optic stereo microscope is a different experience. It's much more "natural". Not a dealbreaker for camera-based solutions, but I just think it's a detail worth mentioning, as you are likely to notice the difference it makes only once you start using it.

The old camera solution is pretty interesting indeed. Only issue would be to find one which can focus at short distances when at maximum zoom. Which one do you use?

That works impressively well, but remember you'd need to add a barlow lens in front of its optics to get it to work at "macro" distance. I get about 15 to 20 cm working distance and it's able to focus even at the max zoom level. The camcorder was not a very fancy one - just a JVC Everio from a few years ago.
 

Offline Ungolian

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2022, 07:03:03 pm »
I posted this in a similar thread last year.  Minimal bench space taken up, and using a similar monitor.   Depth perception can be a problem, but you do get used to it.  Getting stuff to lay flat, and clean, level pads is the key.  Or if you're dealing with pre-soldered pads, I wick off all except one and approach into the tinned side.  Obviously, look into autofocus.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/digital-microscope-for-through-hole-pcb-flipping/msg3649342/#msg3649342
 

Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2022, 07:41:31 pm »
I am looking at this: Aliexpress Link

Yes, this is a typical one. This isn't an autofocus one though as far as I can tell, so be aware of that. That might again not look like a big deal - after all, you might think that the purely optical stereo microscopes do not have any autofocus - but manually focusing using an optic stereo microscope is a different experience. It's much more "natural". Not a dealbreaker for camera-based solutions, but I just think it's a detail worth mentioning, as you are likely to notice the difference it makes only once you start using it.

To be completely honest with you, I am not sure I like the autofocus feature. Or at least I am confident I can do without it, given the little SMD work I do. Happy to spend a few extra seconds once in a while. I see there is also a version sold on a flexible arm - not the sturdiest one of course but maybe perfect for me with space concerns.

It's just that it feels a bit too cheap for just over £100?

Edit: In fact I see some of those scopes don't have a zoom ring, only a focus one. So basically they're like the Andonstar. I do see one which seems to have a zoom ring - but the work height is fixed then. This one

Never easy to dive along all those options, sellers, specs...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 08:20:55 pm by tony359 »
 

Offline JDubU

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2022, 08:30:29 pm »
tony359:

I've tried using a digital microscope for SMD soldering and was never able to get the hang of it. 
Even with nearly zero lag, I found that the lack of depth perception makes precise SMD soldering difficult.  With effort, it can be done, but it's not a good time.  It's OK for PCB inspection, but miserable for soldering.

I now use an Amscope SE400-Z and it's a completely different experience.  Clear binocular vision with precise perception of the height of the soldering iron tip relative to the terminal/pad junction.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2022, 08:37:42 pm »
The ones with manual zoom usually have much longer optics than what you showed on the first link. This is what I had bought on Aliexpress.
The optics is almost 20cm long, and looks more like on your last link.

While autofocus might not be a concern for you - but I still think it's good to have, and in cases you don't want it, you can just disable it - the ability to change the zoom level is non-negotiable IMHO. A fixed zoom would be a major pain.

In any case, if you buy one of those with separate optics (like in the two links you showed), you can always change the optics or the camera module later on for something better. The optics has standard fitting (type C).
 

Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2022, 10:16:46 pm »
While autofocus might not be a concern for you - but I still think it's good to have, and in cases you don't want it, you can just disable it - the ability to change the zoom level is non-negotiable IMHO. A fixed zoom would be a major pain.

In any case, if you buy one of those with separate optics (like in the two links you showed), you can always change the optics or the camera module later on for something better. The optics has standard fitting (type C).

You're right. I didn't think that if I don't have autofocus, then I'll lose the manual zoom on the lens. I am 100% with you, fixed zoom is a no-no, it is the main reason I started this thread.

But auto-focus ones are £300+. Back to square one it seems! :)

Still, I feel one of those would be a better choice than the Andonstar because of the adjustable zoom.

JDubU
I hear you. I think I can get used to that, but I agree it's not an ideal solution. It's just that I cannot justify a bulky stereoscope on my bench at the moment - even though the SE400 is not so big. But as I mentioned on my first post, I don't like that it's basically "fixed zoom" as I hear the replacement eyepieces are basically unusable.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2022, 10:26:09 pm »
There's some learning curve certainly, but it's doable, and you'll eventually like it, because while it takes training to coordinate your movements with the image you see, it's a lot more comfortable for the eyes, neck and back.
 

Offline JDubU

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2022, 11:37:16 pm »
I have the same problem with limited bench space.   It's why I ended up getting the SE400-Z instead of one of the larger Amscopes with zoom, articulated arm and camera port.  It's not obvious from the marketing photos, but it actually folds up over itself when not in active use.  When folded, its footprint is only 5" x 8" with a height of 13.5".   

Having zoom would definitely be a nice feature but, for SMD soldering (as opposed to inspection), it turned out not to be a big deal since soldering is a very localized, close up activity.  I only use 10x eyepieces which give a fixed 20mm field of view.  Because I wear prescription glasses, I substituted the eyepieces that came with the SE400-Z for these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005OMK2JI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They normally come with the higher end Amscopes and have a higher eyepoint and wider FOV.
For me, a zoom out capability would be most useful for initially lining up the target in the 20mm FOV.  I work around this by using the microscope's goose neck spotlight to indicate the location of the FOV without having to search around while looking through the eyepieces.

I only use this microscope for SMD soldering.  For everything else, I use a magnifying headset, sometimes with a head lamp.

Works for me.


« Last Edit: April 11, 2022, 12:24:23 am by JDubU »
 

Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2022, 11:06:05 am »
JDubU

Thanks for your feedback. Indeed I noticed the SE400 is not as big and it would be cheaper than the one I am looking at - but not so much with the eyepieces you suggested.

My main concern would still be the inability to change the magnification if I needed it.

SiliconWizard,
I Agree, it may feel a bit awkward at the beginning but then you get used to that.
 

Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2022, 10:44:23 am »
I've been studying the matter more and as usual I keep bouncing between the cheap and the super-expensive one! :)

So to recap.

Amscope SE400 is good. But really no ability to change magnification as the supplied alternative eyepieces seem to be not fit for purpose.
Andonstar: I really don't need the monitor. Fixed zoom. Can move the lens faaaar away but not ideal. Expensive.
Sony Autofocus Eakins: ideal item. But very expensive.
<put your brand here> CMOS non-autofocus Eikins: fixed focus but with C-mount lens I could add a barlow lens. Price seem to be very good.

Now, I think I am going for the last option. Price is much lower and if I can install a barlow lens as Dave suggests (with his auto-focus one but I'd imagine the same applies to the non-autofocus version?) then it may work well for me.

Lots of unknowns though.
1. Really not sure what I would get until I unpack and put it together!
2. The listing has many different models. Can anybody help me choosing the right one please? It seems the game is between

Panasonic 48Mpx
Sony IMX307 2Mpx
Sony IMX377 12Mpx
Unknown new generation Sony

The IMX377 seems to be a better sensor - the lens selection for that model is a bit "meh" but as I said above I think I won't be sure until I unpack the box and test it myself! The 120x lens seems somehow better than the 100x as the 100x is listed as 30-280mm working distance while the 120x is listed as 55-570mm. Again, I plan to add a 0.3x barlow lens anyways.

Link to item on AliExpress

I am also aware of a member of this forums reporting issues with this seller but to be honest I feel it's kind of routine when purchasing from AliExpress. I think I can make sure I get paypal protection and will try not to engage with the seller anyways.

Any suggestions appreciated!!
 

Offline Ungolian

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2022, 07:49:55 pm »
I will say that the lenses you get with these can have some issues.  The prices raise an issue about quality (either other name brands are over priced, or the Chinese ones are under priced because they are inferior quality).  Also, the lens I got with mine had grease on the lower threads, REALLY close to the lens.  You don't dare try to clean it off either.  So fouling the lens with various soldering smokes is an issue, unless you have some other lens over it (Barlow, and/or polarizing filter), or excellent ventilation.  Just my 2 cents.
 

Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2022, 10:30:31 pm »
Well, I am aware that buying a microscope on Aliexpress is a lottery of course. But I see many happy buyers online (not on Aliexpress, I mean youtube reviews etc). It seems you get a decent quality out of some of those boxes. Clearly the manufacturing quality IS a thing with those. I will keep that in mind, I believe Paypal will assist ONLY if the item does not work. Any issues with the item and I will just open a dispute with Paypal saying it does not work - or the seller would then only offer a partial refund etc. I know the drill. :)

My activity with the microscope is going to be limited and I will have extraction so fumes won't go up. Still, a 1x barlow lens may help.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2022, 11:25:31 pm »
Many of the commercial "solutions" are just ridiculously expensive. Hundreds of dollars.
All that to get a decent macro image? One can do that with any 35mm lens, backwards.
I recently purchased an excellent HDMI video capture dongle for just a few dollars. It makes any HDMI source look really good, my Caonon EOSM for example, looks really nice..Much crisper.. much better than a USB webcam, but faster and at 720p or 1080p. It looks quite nice.

534d:2109  HDMI Video Capture dongle..  <  Thius is the capture dongle..


Unrelated reading..
Carolyn Elkins wrote a very good book on the UK's gulag in Kenya It was about a horrid period of repression, a long time ago, though.. the Mau Mau land recovery rebellion happened in the 1950s. Yes, the 1950s. But very relevant if one is looking at how they twisted the media to show just the governments point of view. Which now in the light of history was quite bad..  The propaganda of the era was quite one sided.. It came close to ending the British Empire with a huge scandal, luckily they just ended it. But a lot of bad people literally got away with murder and were never brought to account for it. Some are probably still alive.

Now of course, people can show whats going on much more eloquently. Tools to do so are much cheaper than they once were.
Canon DSLRs can use Magic Lantern. magiclantern.fm to capture raw video. Which looks quite professional. These cameras are quite cheap, used.


Thanks!

After posting this I ended up on EEVBlog #1125 as well! And indeed it seems to be what I am looking for: zoom, no monitor, good quality, multiple lens available.

Now, as usual with AliExpress I see a variety of those "Elkins" cameras. Some are cheaper than others. I am still investigating but wondering if we know anything about the "real" and "fake" Elkins - is there a "real Elkins" in the first place?

I am looking at this: Aliexpress Link

The old camera solution is pretty interesting indeed. Only issue would be to find one which can focus at short distances when at maximum zoom. Which one do you use?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 12:05:06 am by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2022, 11:57:46 pm »
I will say that the lenses you get with these can have some issues.  The prices raise an issue about quality (either other name brands are over priced, or the Chinese ones are under priced because they are inferior quality).  Also, the lens I got with mine had grease on the lower threads, REALLY close to the lens.  You don't dare try to clean it off either.  So fouling the lens with various soldering smokes is an issue, unless you have some other lens over it (Barlow, and/or polarizing filter), or excellent ventilation.  Just my 2 cents.

I exhaust soldering fumes immediately with a whole house fan An HRV. It was originally made by Fantech and it uses ultra silent German motors.. . No filters necessary, it replaces stale house air with fresh outdoor air. And there is never any cost for consumables.
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Offline thm_w

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2022, 12:24:11 am »
Many of the commercial "solutions" are just ridiculously expensive. Hundreds of dollars.
All that to get a decent macro image? One can do that with any 35mm lens, backwards.
I recently purchased an excellent HDMI video capture dongle for just a few dollars. It makes any HDMI source look really good, my Caonon EOS M for example, looks really nice..Much crisper.. much better than a USB webcam, but faster and at 720p or 1080p. It looks quite nice.

Just the EOSM with a lens goes for over $200 on ebay.
Maybe you can post a photo of your setup and some example captures?
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Offline cdev

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2022, 03:06:44 pm »
It's a nice camera for the price. The pictures tend to be quite nice. It does a nice job with electronic photos, although the reversed lens thing cant be done with it right now as far as I know. The prime lens thats on it right now is fairly decent.

It can take raw video. (Using Magic Lantern.fm  ) Using ML it can use various profiles that increase the color gamut. Which make for very nice cinematography-like images. Its low light sensitivity is also quite good.  For using for videography its quite good, (but only up to 720p, not higher.) although the focusing control is non-optimal unless you get a cage to mount it in which makes it easier/smoother to focus. I dont have that right now.

I do have a RPI and camera.. but not the high quality camera. That is around $75 with a lens for it. It takes a wide variety of lenses with various adapters.

Overall I am impressed with the quality of images taken even with the cheaper RPI camera. (Which is now really cheap on ebay, only around $5.  It takes decent, large resolution images.

The HDMI Video Capture card lets me plug the EOSM into the computer easily and conveniently, and the quality of the captured images is surprisingly good. It will work with any HDMI anything.

I didnt have this before, nor had I found a decent USB camera. So now I can use the EOSM just by plugging it into the little USB dongle, and wow, it looks nice.

The other means of capturing HDMI are expensive and not so good.. I had bought a Lenking HDMI capture box that does it but with a bit of lag. That was the best I had found to date.. And not so great.

So now its possible to use a Canon DSLR directly and that means that all sorts of decent options are available there for macro photography.

I have a very fine focus plastic macro stand.. It works great with my EOSM. And allows very fine focus on rails. It would work for image slicing.

I would be happy to take any specific kind of image youd like, if you can walk me through it..  And I also have some very nice lighting I can use right now. Some new warm white LED lights I have gotten recently for reading also make great photo lights.

And they are very cool considering the light they put out.

What to take a picture of, electronics wise.. ? I have a junk box.. whats in there? Some wifi equipment that no longer is secure.. so wont be used..  Not its usual number of junk PCBs.. Currently have some recent purchases but have not jet been relegated to "junk" status. Still might be photoworthy.

Alternately Various antennas I could take photos of recently bought LPDAs and a tindie Log spiral. (that works surprisingly well for GPS) Those two antennas work well (both of them) for locating broadband RFI. I also have a LPDA for 400-1000 Mhz built by WA2VZB

I also recently got an MSI 100 MSI 2500 SDR for $20. It works okay with broadcast FM. I have both of these antennas also..

https://antennatestlab.com/antenna-examples/polar-plots-of-two-inexpensive-pcb-lpda-antennas 

I have a bunch of antennas made by Wa2VJB. I find most of them to be pretty decent. I also have some LNAs made by him. He sells PCBs for very little for some of his stuff.. its a pretty good deal.

They both work well.. and are very good for locating RFI sources when paired up with something like an hackrf. His 400-1000 Mhz LPDA would also make a decent ham antenna for 440 MHz. It has a fair amount of gain on that band..

 . The higher frequency one is also good.. Better for finding RFI.

Very directional. So you can figure out exactly where the noise originates simply by pointing to it.

These antennas if photographed well can be informative.. Because one can make them one's self.






« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 03:45:40 pm by cdev »
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2022, 05:08:50 pm »
Sorry to throw one more to the mix, but I also had trouble with bench space and a few years ago I got the  Amscope SM-1TS-V203, which is a life changer - especially when compared to my previous USB one. It has zoom and manual focus and excellent finish.
Good luck in your search.
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Offline thm_w

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2022, 10:24:02 pm »
I would be happy to take any specific kind of image youd like, if you can walk me through it..  And I also have some very nice lighting I can use right now. Some new warm white LED lights I have gotten recently for reading also make great photo lights.

Just an example photo of a PCB or whatever you had on hand at the time, to show how nice and crisp the image is.
No need for a massive amount of effort here.
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Offline cdev

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2022, 12:24:21 pm »
Okay, will do the next PCB containing device I can shoot, will do it.. On my kitchen table..

They look nice.
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Offline tony359Topic starter

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2022, 09:12:21 pm »
it's been a while and I've got the "IMX 377" one from Lapsun.

I made a video review (I am not making money out of those videos, it's just for fun). I ended up with a very nice solution for the stand which doesn't take any space and it's much cheaper than a proper stand!

I am happy with the microscope even though I am not sure about the sensor used.

 

Offline Marco

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Re: More on soldering microscopes
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2022, 10:54:14 pm »
Just as an aside, I see RGB "white" laser modules are relatively cheap nowadays. Why aren't there cheap LCD confocal microscopes? You can use a tiny pinhole for pretty much always in focus imaging. Long working distance, large depth of focus, why not?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 05:16:20 am by Marco »
 


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