Mind-range microscope upgrade? Stemi 305, SMZ-2T, EMZ-5TR, Mantis...?

[lukego]

Are you going to go with a particular Barlow lens?

Good question!

0.7x is what I use on my Eakins. I like that compromise on field of view / magnification / working distance. However that's exactly the lens that is NOT available for the Meiji.

I'll initially try using the 0.5x barlow with 15x eyepieces. I'm anticipating longer working distance, larger field of view on the camera port, and same close-up view on the eyepieces. The camera port will have a full-frame 35MP DSLR camera so for inspection I should be able to take big high-res stills and then digitally zoom.

I'll also experiment with no barlow lens and with the barlow and 10x eyepieces. I'm curious to see how the new optics affect the levels of zoom and lighting that I find usable. Maybe it will work better to zoom from further away with the 0.5x barlow than it does on my Eakins? Curious to find out.

[Electro Fan]

Sounds like a good plan.  Several variables to dial-in including working distance, fov, height of the oculars after bench height and any board holding device height, and your height (seated or standing).  All things considered the 0.5 Barlow probably is a good starting point and might be the eventual winner.  Congrats on the new scope.  Looking forward to hearing about what you see through the oculars and with the camera.  I’m betting the EMZ-8TR is going to have very sharp optics. 

Edit:
You have probably already looked at this but if not it has a handy chart with various measurements.
https://www.microscopeworld.com/p-886-meiji-emz-8tr-trinocular-zoom-stereo-body.aspx

Edit 2:
https://www.microscope.com/meiji-techno-auxiliary-barlows-emz-8-series.html
- interesting to see .44 and others

[lukego]

I confess that I haven't looked in great detail at the working distance table. I'm assuming that I'll be able to make it work and that my past experience will be complicated by too many other factors to rely on (chair too low for working distance, low quality relay lens, scars from battles with camera sensors and illumination, meh results when zooming the objective lens, etc.) I'll approach the new setup as a blank slate I reckon.

Switching to full-frame DSLR after the RaspberryPi will be interesting too. On the downside I won't be ssh'ing in to run Linux commands. On the upside I can still script it using a Linux library (libgphoto2) to take stills and videos, I have a 1080p60 HDMI live view for realtime display and/or video capture, and I'm drooling at the prospect of capturing 35MP stills for later inspection e.g. to look closely at an SMT LED to see how I damaged it during soldering. I also read that the 20 minute limit on video recording on my Nikon camera (artificial to avoid camcorder tariffs) can be bypassed with a modded firmware 

Early Christmas coming up for me 

[lukego]

Oh no! Buyers remorse has kicked in and I'm exploring my options (the Meiji hasn't shipped yet.)

I do think the Meiji is the best trinocular microscope option for me. But... maybe I'd be better off without a trinocular microscope? Maybe I should think different? Like...

How about if I picked up a Tamron 90mm f/2.8 DSLR macro lens to record my work sessions and then used a Leica A60 binocular microscope for my eyes only? Maybe that would deliver really spectacular next-level quality for the same money (or less) compared with the kitted-out Meiji?

This route would involve more work. Likely multiple cameras each with a fixed zoom to capture different fields of view. Code to coordinate recording and archive video. Having to account for recordings not capturing the same image that I'm seeing. Having to deal with multiple cameras when reviewing work.

Maybe that suits my personality though. I like to spend time optimizing things and I have a fear of missing out better approaches (ask me how many soldering stations I have on my bench.) I also have a bunch of cameras lying around (DSLR, RPi, Eakins) that are available to bring into my electronics workflow.

Maybe trinocular microscopes are really for other people. People working in tandem between a student and a teacher, people live steaming on the internet, people who value convenience above quality and price.

These are deep questions. I will have to see if I'm able to cancel the Meiji order before I decide how deeply to dig into these!

[jfiresto]

I only have one good camera with a reasonable macro mode, a point and shoot, Canon 330 HS, so I am sure you know much more about macrophotography than I do. With that said, there are images I can only capture through a microscope, because of its better illumination or greater magnification or both.

[lukego]

I only have one good camera with a reasonable macro mode, a point and shoot, Canon 330 HS, so I am sure you know much more about macrophotography than I do. With that said, there are images I can only capture through a microscope, because of its better illumination or greater magnification or both.

I have never actually taken a photograph with a macro lens yet :-). But I have checked my videos and seen that ~20mm field of view is the closest that I usually zoom in even e.g. to work with 01005. My understanding is that a 1:1 macro lens should capture a 35mm field of view on the sensor and for 1080p video that could be cropped down close to 20mm. My Eakins scope performs pretty awfully at this level of magnification (with 0.7x barlow) but my understanding is the macro should be extremely sharp and with a choice of apertures to manage depth of field.

But if the Meiji ends up shipping I don't think I'll have much trouble deciding that it's all for the best and dropping this line of inquiry

Aside: what microscope(s) do you use and what are your usual ranges of magnification? I suspect that my imagination is limited by the quality of this only microscope I have ever used i.e. I probably don't appreciate the true value of high magnification yet.

[jfiresto]

I have been hunting for used cameras on ebay for the last couple years. Plenty of listings include a photo of the sensor, but I have yet to see one that shows any dust that might shadow the sensor at small apertures. Here is a camera sensor I photographed with a microscope, a sensor that looked clean in the listing:



Even reduced to 1024x785 pixels, you can see lots of interesting debris that an authorized camera dealer could not capture with just a camera. For example the sphere of tiny particles toward the top right where perhaps a contaminated droplet hit the sensor and evaporated (the full sized image cropped):



Perhaps, the lighting needed to be just right and I was more lucky. But then again, I probably had much tighter lighting and extra magnification to zoom in and explore.

[jfiresto]

... Aside: what microscope(s) do you use and what are your usual ranges of magnification? I suspect that my imagination is limited by the quality of this only microscope I have ever used i.e. I probably don't appreciate the true value of high magnification yet.

I have two sister models I have been fixing up, a Wild M7A and a Wild M7S, with 6-31X zoom and, if I make no mistake, semi-plan, common main objectives. I took the above photos with the M7S in macroscope mode, with the camera shooting through the center of the objective (and no auxiliary lens).

[lukego]

I suppose that the Wild Macroscopes are really optimized for this kind of very fine inspection work. Maybe that is what you would want for inspecting a tiny silicon die for example? Or to zoom in and see defects on components that are already tiny to begin with. That kind of stuff sounds like amazing fun.

I think that my use cases are mostly different. I'm mostly manipulating objects and switching between a zoomed out ("whole PCB") view verses a close up ("soldering a part") view. I often want an oblique view to check for soldering faults. I'm also starting to do other related things like placing probes and I'm not sure what level of zoom is best there.

Maybe I should be using three scopes in parallel. HDMI camera connected to monitor for the zoomed out view where stereo vision has limited utility. Stereo microscope at close working distance for soldering. Oblique view from macro camera on a boom arm at a polite distance.

[lukego]

Onward!

TEquipment.net graciously allowed me to cancel the order for the Meiji microscope.

I've ordered a Tamron 90mm macro lens for my DSLR. I'll need to learn a little macro photography and videography now. Then I'll have a better idea of my requirements on the microscope e.g. whether it needs a camera port and for what use cases.

Maybe I'll end up back at the Meiji but this feels like reasonable due diligence.

I'll also take a second look at the optics in my lab. Maybe the barlow lens is emphasising the problems in the lens and I should wean myself off that. Maybe I can improve the picture on the camera port e.g. maybe I have a mistake now like a missing C/CS adapter or something. Maybe it's worth trying more things with the Eakins to understand my requirements better before buying my "for the next decade" microscope.

[lukego]

I have my DSLR macro lens now. I haven't had a chance to play with it because I'm moving house this week. This all keeps me busy so that I have time to consider microscope requirements.

I'm starting to think that I want a microscope with a large zoom range. More like 1:10 than 1:5. I reflect that I've always struggled with wanting to switch barlow lenses while working and this is a sign that the zoom range on my Eakins is restrictively small. The same would apply to the Meiji.

However objectives with larger zoom ratios are more expensive e.g. Zeiss Stemi 508 vs 305 and Leica S9 verses A60. Maybe 5x more expensive once all is said and done. So this leads me back to considering a second-hand microscope like a Nikon SMZ-U that would seem to check all the boxes and sell for ~$1000 on eBay.

I've also become aware of a potential "killer feature" to vary the aperture between eyepices to increase depth of field. This might make it practical to take slightly oblique views while working without extra expensive optics. This feature seems to exist on at least Leica and Nikon microscopes.

I'm looking forward to comparing the Eakins microscope with the Tamron macro lens once I've reassembled my lab!

Aside: The photos I've seen people post from their expensive microscopes have mostly looked pretty "meh" to me so far. The examples I'm thinking of seemed quite washed out. I suspect the issue is too much glare from vertically aligned illumination. Good reminder that expensive optics are not the only factor, nor necessarily the most important once, for getting good images.

[jfiresto]

I have my DSLR macro lens now. I haven't had a chance to play with it because I'm moving house this week. This all keeps me busy so that I have time to consider microscope requirements.

I'm starting to think that I want a microscope with a large zoom range. More like 1:10 than 1:5. I reflect that I've always struggled with wanting to switch barlow lenses while working and this is a sign that the zoom range on my Eakins is restrictively small. The same would apply to the Meiji.

I think you will definitely notice the restricted zoom range of the macro lens! At 1:1, it is equivalent to, what, a fixed 10X power microscope – albeit with much higher resolution. Resolution is the factor that limits the acceptable zoom range. As a rule, you can magnify up to 500–1000 times the Numerical Aperture before you start suffering "empty magnification" (the image turning impressionistic). The NA for routine, Greenough microscopes, such as your Eakins or the EMZ-5, is 0.06~0.07, so you should not expect more than 30~70X of useful magnification – multiplied by whatever auxiliary/barlow lens you attach. You need a research grade, usually CMO, microscope with a higher NA objective to support a proportionally greater zoom range. An SMZ-U would answer nicely if you have the room.

I've also become aware of a potential "killer feature" to vary the aperture between eyepieces to increase depth of field....

That is a common add-on for a CMO microscope and often included when you insert a photo tube.

Aside: The photos I've seen people post from their expensive microscopes have mostly looked pretty "meh" to me so far. The examples I'm thinking of seemed quite washed out. I suspect the issue is too much glare from vertically aligned illumination....

I suspect people are sometimes a little too quick using the ring light.

[lukego]

I think you will definitely notice the restricted zoom range of the macro lens! At 1:1, it is equivalent to, what, a fixed 10X power microscope – albeit with much higher resolution. Resolution is the factor that limits the acceptable zoom range. As a rule, you can magnify up to 500–1000 times the Numerical Aperture before you start suffering "empty magnification" (the image turning impressionistic). The NA for routine, Greenough microscopes, such as your Eakins or the EMZ-5, is 0.06~0.07, so you should not expect more than 30~70X of useful magnification – multiplied by whatever auxiliary/barlow lens you attach. You need a research grade, usually CMO, microscope with a higher NA objective to support a proportionally greater zoom range. An SMZ-U would answer nicely if you have the room.

Thanks for fleshing out the details here! I'm looking on eBay now and there seem to be about a dozen SMZ-U microscopes listed at the moment, many sold from the US where the dollar is looking quite cheap compared with the Swedish kronor lately too. Do you think it would make sense to try and buy one of these eBay microscopes or else what would be your strategy for acquiring one? (I'm not in a rush but maybe I could set relevant alerts while I keep on thinking.)

I'm sure the macro lens will be quite limited. My main ambition is to be able to take high-resolution focus stacked images of whole boards from oblique angles. I hope to fully automate this process by driving the camera via its USB remote control interface (libgphoto2 library on Linux.) This would be great for capturing the overall state of a board and checking or e.g. misplaced and misoriented components, tombstoned passives, that kind of thing. I find this a little laborious to do under a microscope or to review as panning video.

My stretch goal with the macro is to record soldering sessions for later review and sharing. How much heat did I really put into that chip? How likely is it that a BGA slipped across pads under the hot air gun and messed up the solder balls? Is there something that went badly that I can show to people for advice about doing better? Is there something that went well that I can brag about on the internet? etc.

I would still be doing the actual work underneath the microscope at high magnification. Quite likely I'd still want the video from a camera port in addition to any macro lens video but I need more data on this question.

[lukego]

An SMZ-U would answer nicely if you have the room.

Thanks also for the note about room. I need to read more about the SMZ-U form factor. I don't like the stands that I'm seeing it on and perhaps its focusing block doesn't permit much choice. Have to read.

Do any other make/models come to mind when you think about microscopes that are relatively available second hand for ~$1000, have a high magnification ratio, and an adjustable aperture?

[jfiresto]

... I'm looking on eBay now and there seem to be about a dozen SMZ-U microscopes listed at the moment, many sold from the US where the dollar is looking quite cheap compared with the Swedish kronor lately too. Do you think it would make sense to try and buy one of these eBay microscopes or else what would be your strategy for acquiring one?...

If there was a high chance you were going to keep it, but I suspect that is not true of the the microscopes I looked at. I tend to the notion they were bought at surplus property auctions, for little money, by people who have no idea of what they are re-selling. Not that is necessarily a bad thing: I got a crucial piece for a microscope that way, but I only paid $400 at first and eventually half that after I explained what might be salvageable and the seller realized what he he might have to pay to take everything back.

The problem with something more expensive, such as a full microscope, is that if you have to return it, you might not get back the VAT importing it into the EU, overseas shipping costs and brokerage fees.

(Here is a SMZ-U that was sold at an American government auction.)

[jfiresto]

... Do any other make/models come to mind when you think about microscopes that are relatively available second hand for ~$1000, have a high magnification ratio, and an adjustable aperture?

I can not think of one off hand. There was an Olympus that looked promising but then I read reports about an overstressed, unobtainable part in its focus mechanism.

[lukego]

If there was a high chance you were going to keep it, but I suspect that is not true of the the microscopes I looked at. I tend to the notion they were bought at surplus property auctions, for little money, by people who have no idea of what they are re-selling. Not that is necessarily a bad thing: I got a crucial piece for a microscope that way, but I only paid $400 at first and eventually half that after I explained what might be salvageable and the seller realized what he he might have to pay to take everything back.

So perhaps a well refurbished SMZ-U with warranty is worth about $2500 (Microscope Central asking price) while a random dodgy unit might list on eBay for $1000 but only be worth $500 even to a sophisticated buyer who is able to make repairs and substitute parts.

Since I'm not a sophisticated buyer I suppose that I should consider the price of an SMZ-U to be around $2500. That's real money. It's even edging up towards the price of a brand new Zeiss Stemi 508 or Leica S9D.

[jfiresto]

Since I'm not a sophisticated buyer I suppose that I should consider the price of an SMZ-U to be around $2500. That's real money....

It is and I would not pay that unless you have to have it next week. With a little patience, you should do much better than that.

[lukego]

Since I'm not a sophisticated buyer I suppose that I should consider the price of an SMZ-U to be around $2500. That's real money....

It is and I would not pay that unless you have to have it next week. With a little patience, you should do much better than that.

How would one approach that? Is the strategy along the lines of How to win at eBay? Or would one take a different tack e.g. look for local auctions in a smaller market, look for second hand sales on forums like Microbehunters, etc?

[jfiresto]

How would one approach that? Is the strategy along the lines of How to win at eBay? Or would one take a different tack e.g. look for local auctions in a smaller market, look for second hand sales on forums like Microbehunters, etc?

I have gotten most of my stuff off ebay, but that involves a fair amount of work and waiting, and the occasional seller who makes life needlessly difficult.

[Electro Fan]

Oh no! Buyers remorse has kicked in and I'm exploring my options (the Meiji hasn't shipped yet.)

I do think the Meiji is the best trinocular microscope option for me. But... maybe I'd be better off without a trinocular microscope? Maybe I should think different? Like...

How about if I picked up a Tamron 90mm f/2.8 DSLR macro lens to record my work sessions and then used a Leica A60 binocular microscope for my eyes only? Maybe that would deliver really spectacular next-level quality for the same money (or less) compared with the kitted-out Meiji?

This route would involve more work. Likely multiple cameras each with a fixed zoom to capture different fields of view. Code to coordinate recording and archive video. Having to account for recordings not capturing the same image that I'm seeing. Having to deal with multiple cameras when reviewing work.

Maybe that suits my personality though. I like to spend time optimizing things and I have a fear of missing out better approaches (ask me how many soldering stations I have on my bench.) I also have a bunch of cameras lying around (DSLR, RPi, Eakins) that are available to bring into my electronics workflow.

Maybe trinocular microscopes are really for other people. People working in tandem between a student and a teacher, people live steaming on the internet, people who value convenience above quality and price.

These are deep questions. I will have to see if I'm able to cancel the Meiji order before I decide how deeply to dig into these!

I think it's possible you are over thinking this.  I recently went through something similar (including lots of thinking and maybe over thinking) with an Amscope.  I worried that the trinocular (simulfocal) port would somehow degrade the binocular view.  While I can't claim there is any way to prove if it does or doesn't, I can say that the binocular view is much better than the camera view - and for what it does, the camera view is ok enough.  I'd describe the camera view as somewhere between barely acceptable (generally when reviewing images from the SD card on the computer) and occasionally impressive (generally when watching the video via the HDMI connection on the monitor next to the scope). 

So while it's possible that leaving out the third port might have made the first two (ocular) ports even better, I think the 2 port binocular view is A-ok.  It is sharp.  Even after a few weeks of having the Amcope when I look in oculars I sometimes go "wow."  Could it be sharper?  I can imagine that it could be but compared to anything else I've experienced (which is close to nada for soldering), it's very exciting to see SMD and other PCB stuff with such clear detail.  I had almost almost never soldered SMD before (I did once manage to drag solder an IC) but now I'm working my way though resistors and capacitors in 1206 to 0805 to 0603 to 0402.  I can't claim to be very good at any of them but at least I can see what I'm doing and I can solder each size in place.  0402 is pushing it but I can pick them up with a tweezers, put them in place and solder them.  With the tweezers I can pick up even the 0402 without the scope but there would have been no chance of soldering the 0402 and most of the other SMDs without the Amscope.  (To the naked eyes the 0402 while sitting on the antistatic pad on my bench look more like big dust than electrical components.) 

My guess is that your Meiji is going to be somewhere between somewhat better and a lot better than the Amscope; it's just a guess - but I have a hunch you are going to find the direct optical view on the Meiji to be excellent.  Whether it could possibly be still a tad better without the 3rd port, again, I don't know but I think you will find that having the 3rd port for digital capture is a very nice addition to the overall scope capability - especially given the uses you have described.  My guess is that the Meiji digital view will also be a step up from the Amscope digital view (assuming the same digital camera, and your camera will probably be still better). 

After going through the Amscope configuration study process, looking around to see what the other alternatives (new and used) might be, and watching you go through the process I think the Meiji looks like the next best step up from an Amscope.  Just guessin' but I think/hope your Meiji is going to be a very good scope for you.

Keep us posted on what you do / learn.

[lukego]

Ooops I did it again...

I ordered a Leica S9 D on a double boom arm with 0.5x camera adapter and 0.5x barlow lens from Spectra Services. $4500 with shipping. I'll be the pauper wearing old rags while peeping into a shiny brand new microscope

This takes quite a bite out of the 2021 budget but I've wrestled this this problem for long enough now. I doubt that I'll regret upgrading to the S9 from my AliExpress scope. I think that with a Meiji or a Leica A60 the risk is I'd be stuck forever with something doesn't really fit all the requirements (camera port, zoom range.)

I'm sure there's a parallel universe where I ended up with something like a Nikon SMZ-U on eBay for under $1000 but I decided that route is a bit too risky for my taste and my (demonstrably) impulsive temperament. Chances are I'd end up with half a dozen scopes that don't work and *then* buy a new one.

Once it arrives I'll stick the RPi on it and see how it performs. I have high expectations based on the few Youtube videos I've seen with test footage from the S9.

[jfiresto]

Ohhhh, that one has apochromatic objectives and should be very nice.

A trick when taking images is to tilt the specimen or the microscope to make the two perpendicular, so that the camera is not viewing the specimen at the usual 5-6° angle.

[Electro Fan]

Congrats!
Looks excellent!

https://youtu.be/c1tffQGup2Q

[lukego]

Congrats!
Looks excellent!

Thanks!

I saw these product description/demo videos and was intrigued but what finally sold me was some random video clips taken through the eyepieces. The image quality throughout the zoom range is well beyond what I'm used to.