New Metcal CV-5210 - The iron tells you when the connection is good

[Zucca]

http://www.okinternational.com/CV-5210-Connection-Validation-Soldering-Station

 

if it would have been a Kickstarter I would call it out as a scam, but it's the new Metcal puppy.
We all now Metcal is not a garage company.



To me they are trying to sell something better than the "SmartHeat", problem is there is nothing better than Metcal SmartHeat.

BTW the new OLED TFT color display touch screen looks funky. It seems if you want to sell a product in the 2018 you need to have a color display.


Anyone tried it out? comments?

[glarsson]

http://www.okinternational.com/CV-5210-Connection-Validation-Soldering-Station
We all now Metcal is not a garage company.

Yes, they are too small for that. Real garage companies are big, e.g. Apple and HP.

[Zucca]

There is also a SW:

http://www.okinternational.com/metcal/english/globalnavigation/resources/software-download

     
Improve your solder process traceability and create a performance baseline using CV's intelligent cartridges plus CV-5000 Monitor software. Using our Connection Validation patented technology, CV Monitor software allows you to capture solder process information over time for each joint when attached to the communication port. You'll get:

• Intermetallic Compound Formation (IMC Formation)*
• Power demand
• Tip temperature
• Solder time

wow, they are making a nice jump.

[Specmaster]

Well I presume its not just not marketing hype but how can it tell that the connection is good, I can't see, maybe it just acts like a timer to keep the heat there long enough to have made a good connection?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think it also measures delivered power - it has a database of characteristics for each tip type.

[VK5RC]

I would punt it might look at impedance as the tip has 14MHz or so quite close by and if both sides of the solder joint are well connected the impedance would decrease I guess. 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

It's a soddering system!

[Specmaster]

I would need some sort of evidence of how the system actually worked before I could believe that its not just some marketing ploy to get extra sales by "making" other systems seem obsolete and get the blind sheep flocking to the dealers to get the latest must have gadget

[Zucca]

measures delivered power

Let's think.. so a delivered energy counter?

1) Take the iron out the stand, magnetic stand-by function triggers a counter reset.
2) iron going to temperature --> counter should stay zero since power is delivered but it has nothing to do with soldering
3) Iron touch metal or melt solder ---> counter going up

Not sure when they turn the green LED on, if it is a simple counter reaching a threshold... how can they know I am touching a ground plane metal or I am melting solder? In both case the iron is dropping energy somewhere...

The point 2) can be managed knowing the typical profile of each tip.

Maybe they sense the drop in energy delivered when the joint reach the temperature tip --> I vote for this one.
EDIT: I was wrong, it's the IMC formation.

That said, who needs that? You can't desing an idiot proof iron.
Oh I know, those quality eng. department will push to have a reproducible and documented hand soldering process... maybe it's smarter to save the money and invest in checking the final board?

[GreyWoolfe]

Are they trying to tell us that our eyes are no longer good enough to tell a good solder joint.  And to think, it is only $799 on Mouser, not counting tip cost.  If I am too blind to see the joint in the first place and then miss a bad joint upon inspection, maybe it is time to sell my soldering equipment.

[Specmaster]

No matter what the price is there will be enough take up for the exercise to be worthwhile as there will be people who have more money then sense.

[Zucca]

LED green is triggered when the right amount of IMC is formed according to some black magic algorithm.

Are they trying to tell us that our eyes are no longer good enough to tell a good solder joint.

I think yes, they are telling us we can't see the IMC.
BTW accoring to the video on the top, I don't like the amount of time the tip stays on the joint. Everybody told me to be as quick as possible with the iron on the board.

I am personally starting to smell  BS.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

You can see it failing at 06m05s 

[Zucca]

 
Lord have mercy I am a sinner, here the frame at 06m05s:



GeorgeOfTheJungle thank you so much

 

EDIT: On a second thought, I think the equipment is working OK.
The problem was/is and will be the idiot holding the iron, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. AMEN.

[Specmaster]

Too many varibles can effect the IMC, cleanliness, size of pad, ie ground plane etc. BS is in the air I think.

[radar_macgyver]

The cynic in me thinks the real reason is the 'smarts' in the tip will make it incompatible with Thermaltronics tips. DRM for soldering irons? 

[Zucca]

The cynic in me thinks the real reason is the 'smarts' in the tip will make it incompatible with Thermaltronics tips. DRM for soldering irons? 

I don't think so, if the Thermaltronics  tip works on the MX-5xxx system it work also on the CV-5210.
The CV is backward compatible with the MX-5xxx.

[mnementh]

Remember guys... MetCal isn't selling to repair shops and EEs. 

They're selling to manufacturers who need to turn out product by the hundreds of thousands, soldered by assembly line muppets. Also, you have specialty markets like medical and military/defense contracting, where quality of solder joints is paramount and ZERO  crib death/DOA is a REQUIREMENT; to the point where they have 100% test/inspection factor, and in some cases, part of the assembly process is x-raying of the solder joints to check for voids and improper wetting of parent/component metals. This would be another layer of validation specifically for the hand-soldered portions of that production.

This is NOT a product for the average electronics hobbyist or repair tech.


mnem
moo?

[tooki]

They put in a touchscreen, but kept a piezo speaker that bleats out the same sound as a smoke detector warning of a low battery? I’d go fucking berserk with that annoying high pitched beep all day long. They couldn’t have given it a pleasant sound???

[Zucca]

This is NOT a product for the average electronics hobbyist or repair tech.

Fair enough, definitely and iron station not for us. I agree.

They put in a touchscreen, but kept a piezo speaker that bleats out the same sound as a smoke detector warning of a low battery? I’d go fucking berserk with that annoying high pitched beep all day long. They couldn’t have given it a pleasant sound???

On top of that, they should have design a battery Metcal iron. Ops my next project.

[Specmaster]

Remember guys... MetCal isn't selling to repair shops and EEs. 

They're selling to manufacturers who need to turn out product by the hundreds of thousands, soldered by assembly line muppets. Also, you have specialty markets like medical and military/defense contracting, where quality of solder joints is paramount and ZERO  crib death/DOA is a REQUIREMENT; to the point where they have 100% test/inspection factor, and in some cases, part of the assembly process is x-raying of the solder joints to check for voids and improper wetting of parent/component metals. This would be another layer of validation specifically for the hand-soldered portions of that production.

This is NOT a product for the average electronics hobbyist or repair tech.


mnem
moo?

What happened to solder baths and flow soldering then?

[mikeselectricstuff]

This is NOT a product for the average electronics hobbyist or repair tech.

Fair enough, definitely and iron station not for us. I agree.

They put in a touchscreen, but kept a piezo speaker that bleats out the same sound as a smoke detector warning of a low battery? I’d go fucking berserk with that annoying high pitched beep all day long. They couldn’t have given it a pleasant sound???

On top of that, they should have design a battery Metcal iron. Ops my next project.

Not a great idea as the RF PSU is rather inefficient. Just buy a TS100.

[nanofrog]

...[snip]...problem is there is nothing better than Metcal SmartHeat.

More personal opinion these days than fact, as other top tier manufacturers have at least caught up, if not surpassed it. Remember, it's 35 y/o tech these days.

Curie point still has a strong place in manufacturing though as operators can't screw with temps and foul up the process control. Nothing to bypass or circumvent as could be done with stations that rely on lock-out for this purpose.

[tooki]

Remember guys... MetCal isn't selling to repair shops and EEs. 

They're selling to manufacturers who need to turn out product by the hundreds of thousands, soldered by assembly line muppets. Also, you have specialty markets like medical and military/defense contracting, where quality of solder joints is paramount and ZERO  crib death/DOA is a REQUIREMENT; to the point where they have 100% test/inspection factor, and in some cases, part of the assembly process is x-raying of the solder joints to check for voids and improper wetting of parent/component metals. This would be another layer of validation specifically for the hand-soldered portions of that production.

This is NOT a product for the average electronics hobbyist or repair tech.


mnem
moo?

What happened to solder baths and flow soldering then?

Maybe for PCBs, but a lot of the military/aerospace stuff is also things like connectors. (A lot is crimped, of course, but a lot is soldered.)

[Jamieson]

The cynic in me thinks the real reason is the 'smarts' in the tip will make it incompatible with Thermaltronics tips. DRM for soldering irons? 

If so, it wouldn't be the first time Metcal tried to discourage use of Thermaltronics cartridges. A few years ago the Metcal MX-500 firmware was updated to check if a Thermaltronics M series cart was installed in the handle. Apparently Thermaltronics carts heat up a few seconds faster than Metcal carts. If the Thermaltronics tip was detected the power unit would display an error message and shutdown. Thermaltronics described this issue and a workaround in their June 2014 newsletter.

[GreyWoolfe]

The cynic in me thinks the real reason is the 'smarts' in the tip will make it incompatible with Thermaltronics tips. DRM for soldering irons? 

If so, it wouldn't be the first time Metcal tried to discourage use of Thermaltronics cartridges. A few years ago the Metcal MX-500 firmware was updated to check if a Thermaltronics M series cart was installed in the handle. Apparently Thermaltronics carts heat up a few seconds faster than Metcal carts. If the Thermaltronics tip was detected the power unit would display an error message and shutdown. Thermaltronics described this issue and a workaround in their June 2014 newsletter.

Would I assume you mean MX-5000, not MX-500?  I have an MX-500 and there is no firmware to update.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The cynic in me thinks the real reason is the 'smarts' in the tip will make it incompatible with Thermaltronics tips. DRM for soldering irons? 

If so, it wouldn't be the first time Metcal tried to discourage use of Thermaltronics cartridges. A few years ago the Metcal MX-500 firmware was updated to check if a Thermaltronics M series cart was installed in the handle. Apparently Thermaltronics carts heat up a few seconds faster than Metcal carts. If the Thermaltronics tip was detected the power unit would display an error message and shutdown. Thermaltronics described this issue and a workaround in their June 2014 newsletter.

Would I assume you mean MX-5000, not MX-500?  I have an MX-500 and there is no firmware to update.

They stupidly messed with the model numbers and now an MX-500 is a lower powered MX-5000
http://uk.farnell.com/metcal/mx-500av/soldering-rework-system-40w-240vac/dp/2433356?st=mx-500

[LeonR]

Just googled the model... It's going for ~800USD. No-no for even the hardcore hobbyists

[tooki]

Ummm... duh?

It’s a feature specifically for improving quality/consistency in production soldering...

[nanofrog]

That's rather steep, even for Metcal.

[Reckless]

They are going for $450 now.  I am thinking about getting some to replace my metcal SP1s.  Has anybody had long term experience with this?  We had varied results in demonstration today trying to solder brass components in less than 8 seconds (IPC standard).  We are waiting to demo it further before making a judgment.  I think it may come in handy in certain applications.   

[panic]

Hi! Does anyone know if MX series handpieces (e.g. MX-PTZ tweezers) would work with CV power supply?

[thm_w]

Hi! Does anyone know if MX series handpieces (e.g. MX-PTZ tweezers) would work with CV power supply?

No, according to SDG
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-metcal-station-_cv-5200-connection-validation-soldering-station_/msg3598068/#msg3598068

Best for any non-production use to avoid the CV.

[panic]

No, according to SDG
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-metcal-station-_cv-5200-connection-validation-soldering-station_/msg3598068/#msg3598068

Best for any non-production use to avoid the CV.

That's unfortunate, it would be great to find some good deals for MX series pieces and be able to use with CV series power supply. Otherwise, I was planning occasional (like 1-2 per month) production runs of quite complex boards (99.9% TH soldering) that I wanted to sell – not sure if it's production use, but this CV system seemed to be right for my use case...

[panic]

Is MX stand compatible with CV series iron at least? They look identical...

[thm_w]

Is MX stand compatible with CV series iron at least? They look identical...

Yeah read that thread, just use the CV iron RF and don't plug in the other connector.
On some really old Metcal stations RF connector won't fit due to pin diameter, but you can get a male to female adapter for a few dollars that should fix it.

[mairo]

I think JBC also has this on offer now, or at least seems similar.

[panic]

I think JBC also has this on offer now, or at least seems similar.

They have a system with similar functionality, but not the same: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/jbc-soldering-assistant-value-(jbc-cdeb-vs-jbc-cdb)/

[panic]

Is MX stand compatible with CV series iron at least? They look identical...

Answering my own question: yes, MX stands are the only option. Metcal CV5210 kit is supplied with MX-W1AV stand

[comka]

hi guys,
it would be nice to get the old tips working the new CV system. have any thoughts