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Products => Other Equipment & Products => Topic started by: Cliff Matthews on January 18, 2018, 05:01:23 pm

Title: Pace ADS200 soldering station
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 18, 2018, 05:01:23 pm
120w and stays cool all day.. looks nice. FWIW, I'm down in the basement with the TS-100 stuff, but it's always nice to dream..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk)


*edit (subject line was too triggering)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 18, 2018, 06:10:01 pm
Hmm... not so sure about Pace, been using TD-100 irons for a few years now and to be honest I'm not impressed with the tips when using lead free. For fine or very fine SMT work I would prefer a Metcal over Pace anyday.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 18, 2018, 07:49:01 pm
I jumped  to snag one for a possible EEVblog review right when they posted and if Dave wants one (no strings..), he can have one.
Who knows, maybe he'll prefer it over his JBC (110W vs 75W) and he can retire his old Pace station.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: bsudbrink on January 18, 2018, 08:50:03 pm
You can take my MBT-250 when you can pry it out of my cold dead hand.   :) :) :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2018, 10:08:22 pm
I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on January 20, 2018, 02:01:08 am
I'll definitely keep an eye out for that review. Thanks Dave.

Now, I own several Pace items (e.g. MBT-250 w/SX-100, SMR-25, Pik & Paste 100) and a JBC CD-1 (w/T245 and T210) amongst several other well-known branded items. I like my MBT-250, but I was in the market for a cartridge based soldering station and looked at various soldering stations, including the WDS 100. After various evaluations, the CD-1 was much more suited to my personal requirements. 

Back to the ADS200, I'm truly interested in more information than what's on the current official website for it, particularly:

Because I'm a longtime customer of Pace, I'm thinking of reaching out with these enquiries to see what and when they can provide more specifics, because the price point and design revisions have me quite curious.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on January 20, 2018, 02:24:56 am
JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip. Re-tinning with Kester tinning paste did not help. Running it only at 260C . The handpiece is too delicate and too long for comfortable work, I always fear it will snap in half if I am not very careful putting it in the holder. The only good thing is the tip changing design, just takes less than 2 sec using the bracket on the stand to pull the tip out and insert the other one. When ADS200 comes out , will buy the same day and ditch the JBC.

Edit: if Pace will supply the station with good quality tips, it indeed may become JBC killer.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2018, 09:56:07 am
JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip.

My tips have corroded too.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on January 20, 2018, 11:10:12 am
JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip.

My tips have corroded too.

I believe mine might have as well, however... I've had my iron set at 325 C with a setback temp of 150 C. The usual solder I use is Kester 63/37 Eutectic rosin core solder over a variety of tips for both of my irons. I use minimal dwell time and when I'm ready to replace the iron, I apply solder, remove by a gentle and quick wipe over the corner of the shock sponge, reapply more solder, then place in the holder. I only use the heavy wool if serious contamination is present and that's not been often. I turn the unit completely off unless I think I'm going to use the iron again within a minute or two.

With that mentioned, I performed maintenance and repair on a variety of items (most consumer repairs) at least 3 to 4 times a week for the past year and still perform quite well and wet very easily. I've only used tip tinner twice in the beginning, which I almost thought my tips were ruined, but were easily wetted with minimum controlled solder after some rewetting with the usual solder I use.

These are just my results so far, however... I believe once I need to use a harsh lead-free solder with an acidic flux, any tips used are going to be very short lived. I'll report back when the situation arises.

In regards to my Pace MBT-250 w/SX-100 desoldering iron, I've set the iron to roughly 335 to 350 C. I've abused the tips by doing lots of the things that shorten tip life, including desoldering lots of SAC305 and other lead-free alloys with extended dwell times. After each extended period, I've followed the Pace recommended barrel clearing procedure before replacing. I remove the tip and turn the iron off if I'm not using it more than a few minutes. Each tip lasted about a year or more. This is not realistically convenient, nor cost effective for most practical uses, however these are the results I've experienced with this procedure.

Again, I'm speaking only from my experience on my own rework equipment.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that occasionally I use an old Pace ST400 IR preheater on any board I think would need it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: lmaokore on January 20, 2018, 05:56:14 pm
JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip. Re-tinning with Kester tinning paste did not help. Running it only at 260C . The handpiece is too delicate and too long for comfortable work, I always fear it will snap in half if I am not very careful putting it in the holder. The only good thing is the tip changing design, just takes less than 2 sec using the bracket on the stand to pull the tip out and insert the other one. When ADS200 comes out , will buy the same day and ditch the JBC.

Edit: if Pace will supply the station with good quality tips, it indeed may become JBC killer.

My tips have corroded too.


I've had no problems with JBC tip oxidation. Wet as good as my Hakko.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PA4TIM on January 21, 2018, 12:56:07 pm
I have a MBT-250 with the normal handpiece, the tweezers and SX-100 soldersucker, Made a big mistake 3 years ago to buy a Metcal station. Solders really great but the quality suck, the service even more. I did it because my (20 years old ? ) SX-70 was worn. So I was very happy I did not sell my MBT-250. 6 months ago I asked Pace for advice about overhauling my old MBT. They gave very quick, honest and good advice. Supplied me even the tip-partnumbers I needed and which soldersucker would fit my needs.  I still do not regret that.  I do a lot of soldering and desoldering (professional repairwork) I would like to add in the future a station with a micro handpiece, and microtweezers  and add a hotair pencil to my 250 (I'm not sure yet they have one for my 250).

The only downside is the long warming up time. Often not a problem because it is almost always powered on but it increases the lifetime of the gear(and tips)  and as much as I use it some on/of handpiece stand and fast heating would be an advantage . That feature I liked from the Metcal.

If I need a third station or replace my Weller the new Pace would be a serious candidate.



Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 21, 2018, 01:38:35 pm
PA4TIM - Based on history, do you see the street price of the ADS200 eventually falling from 239 to 199? The reason I ask is Dave could include it as an alternate candidate in the shoot-out (at least if they weren't joking, he could have one free...) :popcorn:

*edit - They seem interested in giving him one for a burl.. I made sure no strings attached (once they hit production)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: flolic on January 21, 2018, 02:30:04 pm
My tips have corroded too.

So as mine.
Because of that I just got Chinese clone tip for a test (C245-034) and so far it performs as good as original, does not oxidize, has superb tin wetting and cost half the price.
Time will tell how long it will last, but for now I am satisfied.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: bsudbrink on January 22, 2018, 04:51:22 pm
add a hotair pencil to my 250 (I'm not sure yet they have one for my 250).
I'm not sure if you are asking a question here, but just in case... You want a SensaTemp TJ-70.  There's a new one on ebay right now, a little on the pricey side.  If you are patient, cheaper ones come up from time to time (frequently mislabeled).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PA4TIM on January 22, 2018, 10:24:47 pm
Thanks for the info but it was not a question.  It is for the future, At this moment my Oki still works fine.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Neganur on January 22, 2018, 10:32:16 pm
Seems difficult to buy this one, it's not in the pace online shop yet.

Also none of the stores ("where to buy") on the paceworldwide.com page have it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 22, 2018, 10:45:09 pm
Seems difficult to buy this one, it's not in the pace online shop yet.

Also none of the stores ("where to buy") on the paceworldwide.com page have it.
It 's a new product http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/ (http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/)

It shows $239 in this store https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp (https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PA4TIM on January 22, 2018, 10:56:49 pm
PA4TIM - Based on history, do you see the street price of the ADS200 eventually falling from 239 to 199? The reason I ask is Dave could include it as an alternate candidate in the shoot-out (at least if they weren't joking, he could have one free...) :popcorn:

*edit - They seem interested in giving him one for a burl.. I made sure no strings attached (once they hit production)

I do not think Pace should make cheap hobby grade stations. I would rather pay 300 for a wel build Pace and still can buy parts over 10 year as a hobby grade 150 dollar Pace. 239 dollar is already very cheap if it is Pace quality.

I do not mind if they send me one for a serious review.  I do not have enough subscribers but I would only review such a station after I worked a few weeks (minimal 3 to 6  hours a day ) with it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on January 22, 2018, 11:10:59 pm
Do i see no strain relief on the handpiece?  :-//
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Neganur on January 22, 2018, 11:12:26 pm
It 's a new product http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/ (http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/)

It shows $239 in this store https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp (https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp)

I can't use the 120V version :) (but thanks!)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 22, 2018, 11:23:13 pm
It 's a new product http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/ (http://smttoday.com/industry-news/pace-soldering-station/)

It shows $239 in this store https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp (https://technimark-inc.com/soldering-rework-soldering-stations/pace-ads200-soldering-station-8007-0578.asp)
I can't use the 120V version :) (but thanks!)
Yeah, just read the bottom of the brochure.. I'll include a link FWIW..
https://technimark-inc.com/images/ADS200_Brochure_US-version%20_PN5400-0149.pdf (https://technimark-inc.com/images/ADS200_Brochure_US-version%20_PN5400-0149.pdf)

*Don't see why they don't use a 90-240v switcher and avoid complexities (conversion: open box and trade manual and IEC line cord)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 23, 2018, 03:48:02 pm
Update: There is no retro compatibility with older hand pieces and they have a mini-tweezer to be released this summer.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on January 24, 2018, 12:05:56 am
Update: There is no retro compatibility with older hand pieces and they have a mini-tweezer to be released this summer.

Just noticed that reply on my YouTube enquiry. My completely random assumption is that after much consideration, it was much more economical and feasible to start with a completely new standard and lineup, whilst supporting and eventually phasing out some of the older series (again, just my wild guess from noticing their lineups over the years).

I'm hoping the newer mini-tweezers are designed similar to the newer soldering pencil (using cues from their newer soldering pencil hand piece, as well as having an even larger large variety of tips than previous). The vast amount of "hot tip tweezers" I've tried have worked, but not to the point where I felt they were worth the investment.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mrpackethead on January 25, 2018, 08:16:44 pm
I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.

That would be awesome.   I have $800 stations on my workbenches in the lab. Thats fine. we make stuff htat earns money. and some of its specialist.    But i'm constantly being asked by people what to buy.     

I really love my Hakko FX951.. as my 'go-to' iron.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on January 25, 2018, 09:15:11 pm
Just noticed that reply on my YouTube enquiry. My completely random assumption is that after much consideration, it was much more economical and feasible to start with a completely new standard and lineup, whilst supporting and eventually phasing out some of the older series (again, just my wild guess from noticing their lineups over the years).
So that makes the 4th generation of Pace handpiece connectors:
1. 1960s 117V Thermodrive (NEMA 5-15 socket)
2. 1980s Sensatemp (circular connector w/ black collar)
3. 2000s Intelliheat (circular connector w/ blue collar)
4. 2018 Accudrive (don't know if this will be color coded)

It's worth remembering that there was limited backwards compatibility for earlier generations. For example, Intelliheat stations could use Sensatemp handpieces with an adapter cable, and certain Sensatemp stations like the PPS400 could be used to control the temperature of 117V tools.
There was a special connector for the HeatWise and TempWise stations (the red collar) that was equivalent to Intelliheat, without the backwards compatible capability.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on January 26, 2018, 07:39:26 am
Just noticed that reply on my YouTube enquiry. My completely random assumption is that after much consideration, it was much more economical and feasible to start with a completely new standard and lineup, whilst supporting and eventually phasing out some of the older series (again, just my wild guess from noticing their lineups over the years).
So that makes the 4th generation of Pace handpiece connectors:
1. 1960s 117V Thermodrive (NEMA 5-15 socket)
2. 1980s Sensatemp (circular connector w/ black collar)
3. 2000s Intelliheat (circular connector w/ blue collar)
4. 2018 Accudrive (don't know if this will be color coded)

It's worth remembering that there was limited backwards compatibility for earlier generations. For example, Intelliheat stations could use Sensatemp handpieces with an adapter cable, and certain Sensatemp stations like the PPS400 could be used to control the temperature of 117V tools.
There was a special connector for the HeatWise and TempWise stations (the red collar) that was equivalent to Intelliheat, without the backwards compatible capability.

Wow! Great historical reference! I just remembered the heatwise/tempwise looked a lot like the IntelliHeat pieces.

Funny thing is at least one company makes aftermarket handpieces for the “ThermoDrive” (one of them being A.P.E.).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Corporate666 on January 29, 2018, 12:31:40 am
I hope Dave will eventually manage to do a review of this unit.  I have all Pace stations at work and I love them.

I started off with Weller in the beginning, then moved to Metcal, then picked up a Pace and found it far far superior to the Metcal. 

I have a bag of Pace tips and I think in about 7 years I have MAYBE gone through about 2 or 3 tips with countless tens of thousands of soldered connections.  I don't know what it is about Pace tips, but they just do not die.  On the other hand, Metcal tips were lasting me a couple of months before they would corrode and disintegrate. 

The Pace heats up faster and has just as much power and thermal capability as the Metcal, if not more, and I can adjust the temp to whatever I want.  I would never go back to Metcal.

So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on January 30, 2018, 03:54:29 pm
So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
I thought Dave said in #4 it didn't fit his criteria (something about leading horses to water comes to mind..)
I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on February 02, 2018, 07:10:06 am
Quote
...I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.

If you do, I hope your wife realises it's "investment potential."  :)  I'll also keep an eye out if you or anyone decides to review it.

I'm still watching for more details from Pace concerning the ADS 200, mainly:

I'll stay tuned...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ransonjd on February 12, 2018, 01:10:00 am
I think they're debuting this at IPC APEX, so maybe I'll be able to give it a try there.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on February 12, 2018, 01:46:00 am
I think they're debuting this at IPC APEX, so maybe I'll be able to give it a try there.
Nice, ask them if they're still sending one to Dave.. If they give you a shrug, point them to their own public YouTube comments.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ransonjd on February 28, 2018, 04:13:57 am
It seems like a pretty nice unit. I got to poke at one for a bit on the APEX show floor. I tested a small tip on a lightweight test board, and it got nice contact with SOP leads and quickly flowed the solder. The tip stayed wet well, and I was able to work several solder joints in a row without re-tinning. The handle does seem to stay cool.  I'm planning on going back later this week and testing a heavier tip on some pennies.

It sounds like their tips may not have the temperature sensor right in next to the end, but it sounds like they're all going to be available for $10-15. At least at present, their tip selection looks good, but mostly run of the mill. They didn't show anything like the JBC wide blades or other less common but useful tips.

They had prototype tweezers for the unit, but they're still a few months out from production. They had a twist mechanism on each handle to allow you to easily adjust the angle of the tips. They also have a stand with a mechanical switch for detecting the handpiece that will be coming out later.

It sounds like, in the distant future, they may be introducing something like their MBT350 unit that supports the new handpieces.  However, they didn't have a timeframe for it.

Let me know if there's anything in particular I should report on.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on February 28, 2018, 12:43:26 pm
Dave, it looks like you have some "boots on the ground" at APEX. Maybe Ransonjd can get them to come good on their YouTube promise and send you one so we all can see this thing close-up?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ransonjd on February 28, 2018, 08:28:16 pm
Have some photos.

I soldered together some pennies with a mini-wave tip using some chipquik tacky flux and the solder wire they happened to have at their display. It didn't feel like the iron had a hard time at all, but pennies are still easier than a heavy ground plane.

The units are stackable, and the extrusion used for the case seems like it could be easily bolted to the underside of a shelf.

I asked about sending one off to Dave. It sounds likely, but not guaranteed.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PA4TIM on February 28, 2018, 08:34:08 pm
Quote
The units are stackable, and the extrusion used for the case seems like it could be easily bolted to the underside of a shelf.

My MBT250 has those slots too. For some time I want it under the bench instead of on the bench. Never thought using those slots. Thanks  ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on February 28, 2018, 08:39:04 pm
I wonder if they ship by default with ISB on the back (I recall a "cubby mod" out there somewhere..).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 28, 2018, 08:47:11 pm
..well at least it doesn't have a stupid TFT touchscreen or bloody wifi  ;)



Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ransonjd on February 28, 2018, 08:52:56 pm
One thing that impressed me about Pace was that everything worked as their demo team expected. At Weller, one of their handpieces was jammed so you couldn't remove the cartridge, and it took a couple tries for them to show how to configure one of the units. Also, the Weller circular touch dial on the WX series seems like a horrible idea.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on February 28, 2018, 09:00:29 pm
It's a different market.

Pace makes equipment for production use. This is the stuff a smart purchasing decision maker will buy for a production line/environment, perhaps never using this equipment themselves, even.

I think a higher percentage of JBC users are doing design work and prototyping/debuggin/repair. And probably they are often the guy making the purchase decisions (their own boss, equipment procurer). Nothing about JBC makes financial sense for long term hard use. They're in the business of fishing for fishermen. If having JBC on your bench makes you happy, then it's worth it. Like a CEO driving a Ferrari, why not? The guys that are doing the heavy soldering don't care about the LCD screen and the 3 second warm up time. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PA4TIM on February 28, 2018, 09:35:45 pm
And that is why I love my Pace. I solder a lot (repair work, not the usual stuff. I  often have to repair/rebuild boards by desoldering all parts, testing them and replace them)
It is not shiny, sleek looking, no fancy functions or displays. Just functional. The handpieces are rather big, it heats up not very fast . But it is build like a tank, I can leave it on the whole day. Plenty of power. Desoldering RF shielding is no problem.  Yesterday was the first time the SX100 became a bit hot in my hands. That was after desoldering four 40 pin boxconnectors (160 pins from a 4 layer board, without any pauze). The unit is around 20 years old or so. I replaced de PS80 a few years ago and last year the SX70 for a SX100. The pump is still like new. Never replaced a single part, cleaned it once, but that turned to be not necessary. .The few times I  had a question or needed advise they helped me fast and good.

Because it was so old and much used I made the mistake to replace it with a Metcal station a few years ago. I threw that pile of junk out after less then  1.5 years of use. (worn parts: two solder handpieces, two desolder handpieces, more tips as my pace used in 5 years and 2 worn pumps.)
When the second handpiece cable became over 100 degrees C and Metcall told me that is a known fault but mine was outside the warranty  I had had it and threw it out. over 1600 euro wasted. 
I was so happy I had kept my Pace as backup set. (I also have a Weller WS-81 station, nothing wrong with that. I use it for smd and as a back-up, I can not work without solder gear)

So for me it is Pace forever.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on March 08, 2018, 07:07:19 pm
A local merchant started ads for the ADS200 and i am ready to pull the trigger but can't find information which tip(s) it comes with, if any. If no tip is included that would be a cheap trick from Pace to artificially reduce price. Do anyone know what cartridge is included ?

Edit: confirmed with the merchant - does not include any tip cartriges, must buy separately.  :-\
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 10, 2018, 06:59:09 pm
I may get this if the reviews are good. I bought an FX-888D to replace my Weller but really wanted a better iron with even faster recovery and better thermal capacity. I wonder if it's programmable to go into sleep mode. Because I really don't think I need a $60 instant setback stand for electronic repair work.

Edit: Actually don't know what the model with the instant setback stand will sell for. I was looking at some wrong info.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 10, 2018, 09:30:40 pm
I may get this if the reviews are good. I bought an FX-888D to replace my Weller but really wanted a better iron with even faster recovery and better thermal capacity. I wonder if it's programmable to go into sleep mode. Because I really don't think I need a $60 instant setback stand for electronic repair work.

Edit: Actually don't know what the model with the instant setback stand will sell for. I was looking at some wrong info.
You may want to read this before you order it with ISB https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/)
One thing I hoped Dave would show (if he decided to let them ship one), is the possibility of easy DIY instant-set-back on the new model.
This is all the ST models require:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/?action=dlattach;attach=91968;image)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 12, 2018, 05:57:49 pm
Thanks for the diagram. I just spoke to a PACE distributor here in the USA. They say the ISB stand will be available as an accessory (no price or availability yet), so I imagine the base model will have the port on the back.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 12, 2018, 11:04:45 pm
I did even better and spoke to tech support at Pace. He told me pretty much the same thing. So I guess it will have the port on the back.

He also told me it can be programmed to setback if there's no thermal load detected for a period and it will wake up when you put the tip of the iron on the wet sponge for a few seconds or flip the power switch off and back on. 10 minutes is the minimum setting.

That may be good enough for me. I'm not using it for production.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 13, 2018, 10:51:16 pm
It's confirmed, in a few weeks Pace will send one so we can all get a good look!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 14, 2018, 12:00:05 am
Great news! I can't wait for Dave to put it though its Paces! :-DD

I'm thinking Pace felt they needed something for the hobbyist. I'm trying to figure out what they cut out of this model? Or are the just low-balling the price to gain marketshare? A lot of competition out there. I hope Dave compares it to the FX-951 for performance and value.

I like soldering station wars. Brings better technology for cheaper money. I'd like to see the cost of tip cartridges go under $10.

TEquipment has it listed for $219 US. Do I hear $199 anyone?

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 14, 2018, 01:10:13 am
They likely don't have password protected temperature limits on this model (so production workers can't screw things up).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on March 14, 2018, 02:24:48 am
I'm thinking Pace felt they needed something for the hobbyist. I'm trying to figure out what they cut out of this model? Or are the just low-balling the price to gain marketshare? A lot of competition out there. I hope Dave compares it to the FX-951 for performance and value.

I'm probably reaching with this, however...

From the information replied in my YouTube comment (under my YouTube username), a very big part could be making it "AccuDrive only", which reduced the possible complexity costs associated with IntelliHeat (retro compatible with SensaTemp). Another thing I noticed is that the cartridge based hand pieces are priced less than their SensaTemp equivalents (though the cartridges themselves are usually priced higher than non cartridge tips). Mostly guesses on my part.

I like soldering station wars. Brings better technology for cheaper money. I'd like to see the cost of tip cartridges go under $10.

I agree x1000! I personally look forward to their newer tech offerings.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 14, 2018, 02:58:32 am

I'm probably reaching with this, however...

From the information replied in my YouTube comment (under my YouTube username), a very big part could be making it "AccuDrive only", which reduced the possible complexity costs associated with IntelliHeat (retro compatible with SensaTemp). Another thing I noticed is that the cartridge based hand pieces are priced less than their SensaTemp equivalents (though the cartridges themselves are usually priced higher than non cartridge tips). Mostly guesses on my part.



I agree x1000! I personally look forward to their newer tech offerings.

I'm thinking that since they increased the wattage of the system to 120w maximum output, they had to use a different system of tips with heating elements of lower resistance. Thus making the old tips incompatible with the new drive system. The tips are priced about the same. So no big deal as long as there's availability. If it heats up in like 3 seconds and performs well it may well become popular. It will be deemed successful when aftermarket cartridges and parts are  available from Bangood, Aliexpress and everywhere.

Then Hakko will have to make an iron that puts out 200w and heats in under a second for $98. I want to be able to weld a trailer hitch.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2018, 04:09:49 am
So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
I thought Dave said in #4 it didn't fit his criteria (something about leading horses to water comes to mind..)
I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.

It didn't fit my original requirement of a $100 station shootout.

I'ts not fair to compare apples an oranges. In this case a $100 traditional tip station vs a $200+ fast heat integrated tip station.
This ADS200 would compare with the Hakko FX951 etc
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on March 14, 2018, 04:17:40 am
So very curious how Dave likes this new unit!
I thought Dave said in #4 it didn't fit his criteria (something about leading horses to water comes to mind..)
I guess I'm going too just piss my wife off and buy one.

It didn't fit my original requirement of a $100 station shootout.

I'ts not fair to compare apples an oranges. In this case a $100 traditional tip station vs a $200+ fast heat integrated tip station.
This ADS200 would compare with the Hakko FX951 etc

I believe I already said in that review thread, the ADS200 should be compared to the FX951, the Metcal PS900 or MFR series, the Thermaltronics equivalent (TMT-2000S and EB-2000S), and so forth.

Being $250-350 a throw, that's sadly an expensive shootout.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 14, 2018, 04:30:01 am
I think everything will be integrated tip cartridges eventually. Just gonna take a couple more product cycles. Because it seems like they cost peanuts to make now. 

That portable TS100 iron is $50 or even less on a deal including cartridge. Just add a powered base unit and a stand to a similar design. Could be less than $100.

 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2018, 04:41:41 am
Being $250-350 a throw, that's sadly an expensive shootout.

More in AUD.
I'd get back maybe $50 in adsense revenue if I'm lucky.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on March 14, 2018, 09:08:02 pm
Quote
I think everything will be integrated tip cartridges eventually. Just gonna take a couple more product cycles. Because it seems like they cost peanuts to make now. 

That portable TS100 iron is $50 or even less on a deal including cartridge. Just add a powered base unit and a stand to a similar design. Could be less than $100.
I don't believe this is the case. There are inherent drawbacks and limited pros for cartridge tips. There is always room for the old school design.

The simple fact that the cartridge tips rely on an electromechanical spring contact connection for power is a bit of a drawback for a tool that is designed to make solder connections.
The fact that is that as parts get smaller and smaller, oftentimes it is more efficient to use tips that are bigger. Thermal mass vs super fast response time is always going to have a place.
Being slightly better at specific things at the cost of increased complexity and operational costs is not necessarily a benefit to an application or user who is not doing those specific things.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The thing I hear about Metcal sometimes is the "I can desolder this resistor and this heatsink with the same tip." Well, in any repair, the soldering part is not the time-consuming or difficult part. In any production setup, you can have as many different irons and tips and stations and workers as you want to produce things efficiently. There's maybe one dude on the planet that is brilliant enough to decide what things need to be desoldered and replaced on the fly to where this amazing response time is going to make a gnat's ass worth of difference.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on March 14, 2018, 09:14:05 pm
The simple fact that the cartridge tips rely on an electromechanical spring contact connection for power is a bit of a drawback for a tool that is designed to make solder connections.
Most soldering irons rely on electromechanical spring contact connections between the handle and the control unit/power supply. Why is the springs connecting a cartridge a problem?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on March 14, 2018, 09:21:06 pm
Well, here are two cases

Weller mini pencil has a 3mm stereo jack connector that mates to in the middle of the handle. The front part of the handle is part of the tip. To the connector has to handle lateral forces, and it bends around in there with some play. And they do wear out.

I have torn a T12 tip from insertions/removal. Ripped the contacts off the tip.

But you are right. Even sticking the plug into the mains outlet is relying on a spring contact. So my comment is pretty stupid.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on March 14, 2018, 09:28:25 pm
Weller mini pencil has a 3mm stereo jack connector that mates to in the middle of the handle. The front part of the handle is part of the tip. To the connector has to handle lateral forces, and it bends around in there with some play. And they do wear out.
The 3 mm "headphone" jack is a terrible design and a terrible choice for this application.

I have torn a T12 tip from insertions/removal. Ripped the contacts off the tip.
That is a fail of the implementation, not of the concept.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on March 14, 2018, 09:44:28 pm
Is this legit, maybe?  :-//
1. You change a tip way more many times than plug/unplug an iron. No matter how many times you change the tip on a 936, you won't wear out an electrical connection.
2. The tip undergoes some forces on it, regularly, rather than just hanging in a socket.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 15, 2018, 04:14:21 am
In the 70's my dad built ham radios with one of those irons that had a screw to hold the tip in and used an ash tray for a stand. He used a Bic lighter to heat shrink connections. He had another iron with a wooden handle that looked like a branding iron. And a Weller soldering gun with the trigger. I inherited one of those from this old timer who was the best TV technician I ever knew.

I started using Unger irons in the 80's and 90's that had screw-on tips. I built some test equipment with them.

When I got a Weller station, I had to start wearing a seat belt.

The new irons are like having a turbo charged race car. The need for speed. Gotta have it.

Fuel injection systems are more complex. Would you go back to a carburetor?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 18, 2018, 01:21:55 pm
..No matter how many times you change the tip on a 936, you won't wear out an electrical connection.
Ok, but what about thermal transfer? (see DaveCad in the latest video). When I receive my ADS200, I will post some close-up shots on the interior of the new aluminum pencil handle to allow others to give some assessment of electrical contact strength.
(https://s18.postimg.org/5krgavs8p/Pace_are_contacts_good_for_120w.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on March 18, 2018, 06:29:15 pm
1. You change a tip way more many times than plug/unplug an iron. No matter how many times you change the tip on a 936, you won't wear out an electrical connection.
2. The tip undergoes some forces on it, regularly, rather than just hanging in a socket.
I think those factors weigh against the 936 style, because you are more likely to crack the ceramic heater than to damage a well-designed coaxial plug-in system. Some connectors (TT and TRS) can be rated for millions of insertions; even if the insertions on a JBC or Metcal are only 10,000 that's way more than the number of cycles it takes to break a 936 heater.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 18, 2018, 06:56:30 pm
Has anyone reported problems with the hand-piece of the Pace WJS-100 station?  That's also 120W and been out for 4-5 years. Doesn't seem real popular though, from what I can tell by browsing.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on March 18, 2018, 11:17:13 pm
Quote
Some connectors (TT and TRS) can be rated for millions of insertions
Most common use for this style of connector is to transit pre-amplified audio signals.

I think every cartridge style station has instructions in the manual to the effect "if display does not show X, remove and reinsert the cartridge." Or it could say, if it don't work, jiggle it. They do NOT suggest you unplug and reinsert the mains socket or the iron cord.

Quote
The new irons are like having a turbo charged race car. The need for speed. Gotta have it.
If I want to win a race, I want a race car, yeah. If I want to get to work, I can drive a Honda. If I want to move tons of merchandise at a time, I would probably use trailer trucks. :)

Quote
Fuel injection systems are more complex. Would you go back to a carburetor?
In this case, no. The problem with carbs is they can be clogged by fuel impurities, and you have to drain the float bowls before storing for any length of time. Cleaning them is a bitch, and getting to them likely an even bigger bitch.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: johan450 on March 21, 2018, 06:26:08 pm
Contacted Desab, the swedish distributor for a quote.

3.190 SEK(390$~)+VAT for the version with the ISB holder, Tips go for roughly 20$.
Might as well get the CD-2BE I use at work at that price, anyone found them in eu for a more resonable price? Mainly looking for the version with the ISB holder(P/N 8007-0581 230).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 21, 2018, 07:44:27 pm
Contacted Desab, the swedish distributor for a quote.

3.190 SEK(390$~)+VAT for the version with the ISB holder, Tips go for roughly 20$.
Might as well get the CD-2BE I use at work at that price, anyone found them in eu for a more resonable price? Mainly looking for the version with the ISB holder(P/N 8007-0581 230).
Sad observing greed at that level, but smile taxes pay for socialism (ha, I live in Canada.. croak!)
$219 at TEquipment. Most tips are $12 to $16 and the ISB would likely be a $10 external hack.
https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0578/Soldering-Stations/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0578/Soldering-Stations/)
When mine arrives, this 120w $17 1/4inch "get it done son" chisel will be my daily runner (I think..)
(https://s18.postimg.org/dzwt3wayh/120w-0.25chisel-blue.jpg)
 
 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 21, 2018, 08:43:03 pm
I'm glad I live in USA when I see what everything costs in the EU. Though nice train system in France.

I hope there will be a EEVblog discount from TEquipment. Maybe $199 or less. Of course, provided it gets a good review.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 21, 2018, 09:31:46 pm
I already own a JBC system but I need a second station and I getting ready to order Hakko FM203-DP was going to order anther JBC but the tip cost is kill me I have about 10 different tips I use and to be honest the JBC is good but I want to try another system.

What do you guys think should I get this Pace system instead? I have a cart all set at TEquipment but I really wanted the ISB holder but after talking to Pace today it will not be here until May not even in productions yet. I did get the full manual which is a draft as the final is not even completed yet. :-DD

Need to order it before midnight eastern time to get the 25% off the Hakko.  :) If I order the Hakko I will get the Mini Parallel Remover and the Micro Soldering Iron Kit the tips are just so damn cheap for the Hakko most of the one's I want are under $10 and the others are $16

Let me know what you think I have never owned a Hakko.

I have had JBC, Weller, Pace, Metcal, Edsyn the JBC is nice but I hate the cost and I don't think the tips stay wet enough.

Let me know your thoughts.......

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: plazma on March 21, 2018, 09:38:48 pm


JBC CD-1D w/T245 owner here and hate it. Tips are quickly oxidizing garbage, just a few sec and it is dark and solder wire rolls back on itself and not sticking to the tip.

My tips have corroded too.

We had oxidation problems at work. The reason was using steel wool which was suplied with the JBC unit. We changed to brass wool and the tips lasted long again.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 21, 2018, 10:53:56 pm
I already own a JBC system but I need a second station and I getting ready to order Hakko FM203-DP was going to order anther JBC but the tip cost is kill me I have about 10 different tips I use and to be honest the JBC is good but I want to try another system.

What do you guys think should I get this Pace system instead? I have a cart all set at TEquipment but I really wanted the ISB holder but after talking to Pace today it will not be here until May not even in productions yet. I did get the full manual which is a draft as the final is not even completed yet. :-DD

Need to order it before midnight eastern time to get the 25% off the Hakko.  :) If I order the Hakko I will get the Mini Parallel Remover and the Micro Soldering Iron Kit the tips are just so damn cheap for the Hakko most of the one's I want are under $10 and the others are $16

Let me know what you think I have never owned a Hakko.

I have had JBC, Weller, Pace, Metcal, Edsyn the JBC is nice but I hate the cost and I don't think the tips stay wet enough.

Let me know your thoughts.......

I've only used Weller so I have no opinion about the performance or tip life of Hakko, Pace or JBC. However, from what I've read, Pace seems to have better thermal performance at than Hakko FX-951. Not sure if it's the same as the FM-203.

If you've used Pace and like the ergonomics, performance and tip life, you can get two separate 120w Pace stations for the cost of the FM-203. I'm wondering what the cost will be for Pace with the setback stand. I don't think they've even established a price yet?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 22, 2018, 01:09:00 am
From what I can find it looks like the unit with the ISB holder will probably be around $299

Ya that is one concern I have with the Hakko I work on a lot of receivers and HDMI boards and I am wondering if the Hakko will handle it.

The Hakko FM203-DP is only going to cost me $409.00 delivered that's with two irons seams like a excellent price. I guess I could always purchase it and if I don't like it sell it I should be able to break even.

The other positive with the Hakko is the tips selection I am sure Pace will add more over time and I think this line is going to grow.

Maybe I should just purchase both then I will know for sure which is better. HAHAHAHA LOL  :-DD  :scared: :scared: :scared:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 22, 2018, 02:11:19 am
I think the FM-203 will put out up to 140W. So two 70w irons or one 140W iron. When one particular( I forget which) hand-piece or tweezer with a high mass tip is plugged into the left port, it doesn't allow the other iron to operate simultaneously. But I'd rather have two separate systems.

With the Pace, I'd probably try to fabricate some kind of setback switch if it's $60 extra. Maybe something a simple as a microswitch.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 22, 2018, 02:19:15 am
I think the FM-203 will put out up to 140W. So two 70w irons or one 140W iron. When one particular( I forget which) hand-piece or tweezer with a high mass tip is plugged into the left port, it doesn't allow the other iron to operate simultaneously. But I'd rather have two separate systems.

So if it was you you would purchase two single channel stations?

Ya I am looking at the limitations of the dual unit and think you might be right. I do want some tweezers but I don't have to have them right now and it looks like they are coming for the Pace unit.

I might just order the Pace unit and give it a go if I find I like it I will order a second one when the ISB holder is available.

Hmmmm what to do?????  I hate decision like this  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 22, 2018, 03:06:14 am
So you've used Pace before? How did you like the thermal performance? Tip quality, longevity?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 22, 2018, 03:12:49 am
So you've used Pace before? How did you like the thermal performance? Tip quality, longevity?

From what I remember there were excellent at the time I think the unit I used to have was the Pace ST 45 with the PS-90 Iron

I have not used there new equipment.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 22, 2018, 04:00:43 am
I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.

That would be awesome.   I have $800 stations on my workbenches in the lab. Thats fine. we make stuff htat earns money. and some of its specialist.    But i'm constantly being asked by people what to buy.     

I really love my Hakko FX951.. as my 'go-to' iron.

I'm also highly interested in the shootout... been looking for a newer station for myself.. been using a plain old analog weller for years.. cant complain, gets the job done... maybe not as fast or controlled as a hakko or jbc but its good enough.. enough so not to motivate me to get one of the newer style stations as shown by Dave in his other reviews less its a knockoff maybe...  I dont really trust knockoff stuff though to anything power delivery related....  just see fake apple chargers
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 22, 2018, 10:38:22 pm
Hi EEVbloggers!

This is Aaron from PACE Worldwide, here to answer your questions about the new ADS200 AccuDrive Soldering Station (finally)! Sorry it’s taken this long, but I don’t get online as much as I should. I’ll try to answer some of the questions I’ve seen in this thread. Please feel free to comment.

Status of ADS200 Production: we’re in very limited production of the station right now because of a shortage of key parts, so you probably won’t see high quantities of the ADS200 in the US until early April, and about 3 weeks later for Europe (we ship from our North Carolina factory to our UK office).

Evaluation Units: We will be shipping evaluation units to both Cliff Matthews and Dave within the next few weeks. We wanted to ship them this week, but parts issues on both station and tips have caused a delay ... sigh. :-[

Direct Orders from paceworldwide.com: We intend to have a new page up with the capability to order via paypal or credit card live by next week, but we’ve been holding off due to the parts shortage. Not a good idea to sell something online that you can't immediately ship. In the meantime, you can view features and video on our www.paceworldwide.com/ads200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/ads200), but this site is external to paceworldwide.com so it will not have the capability to order.

Pricing: The $239 price (£199 in UK/€225 in EU) is the final list price … this “introductory price” is a bit of a marketing thing, but the price is not likely to go up or down in the near future. Note that PACE does not control what an authorized distributor can sell the unit for, so you are likely to see fluctuations (up or down) depending on the distributor. I doubt you’ll see anything close to $199 in the US, since distributors are likely to take a loss at that price.

No Stain Relief on the TD-200 Handpiece: Our strain relief is internal to the handpiece, a tried and true design on most of our soldering irons for the past 20 years, and we’ve never had issues with the cords wearing out or failing. Now handpiece breakage is another thing, and it’s one of the reasons we have switched to an all-metal handle design. Unlike the older (and more brittle) ESD-safe plastic we used on the previous TD-100 handles, the new TD-200 is that ships with the ADS200 is practically impossible to break. In addition, the aluminum keeps the handpiece cool at any temperature, even in extended use situations (our previous TD-100 handle could get really HOT).

Mini-Tweezers: I showed one of the prototypes to ransonjd (EEVblog member who mentioned that he soldered the pennies together at the APEX Show), and this handpiece will become available in mid-Summer. It will be compatible with the ADS200 only, not previous PACE soldering stations (ST 50, WJS 100, etc). We have a ton of tooling on this handpiece, and some of the longer lead-time items will take up to 3 months to receive after final design.

Instant SetBack (ISB) Tool Stand: All versions of the ADS200 will have a port on the back panel (which can be seen in ransonjd’s images of the back panel that he that photographed at the Apex Show) that allows for the addition of an optional ISB Tool Stand, which automatically drops the temperature of the tips below solder melt so that they don’t oxidize (and thus last up to 5x longer). There are also other part numbers for the ADS200 (PN 8007-0579 for 120 VAC; PN 8007-0580 for 230 VAC) that include the ISB Tool Stand as part of the package. Sorry, no price on those units yet as we are still waiting for critical parts to be priced and received. The ISB Tool Stand versions should be available by late April.

All ADS200 feature SetBack and AutoOff, which is built into the power supply: the standard ADS200 features software driven Setback and AutoOff features that can be programmed from the power supply Programming Menu, so you may not even need an ISB Tool Stand. The default setting is the unit will automatically “set back” the temperature to 350°F after 30 minutes of inactivity, then shut off the power to the TD-200 Handpiece 60 minutes after it goes into SetBack. 

Software Features of the ADS200: The ADS200 has all the features of previous PACE models, and is NOT a stripped-down version of previous soldering systems. We’re just not making the amount of margin that we were on previous models!

Does the ADS200 come with Tips? No. Like most Hakko and Metcal products, we do not include tips. I know it’s inconvenient, but adding a tip adds $10 to the list price, and this is a price sensitive market so we wanted to make the list price as low as we could. Also, we have found that it’s best to have the customer decide exactly which tips he/she wants, as opposed to arbitrarily adding a tip that they won’t use. I know this will probably cause some consternation among EEVbloggers here, but sticker shock for soldering stations is a very real issue for us, so we want to keep the price as low as is possible.
 
AccuDrive Vs. IntelliHeat: AccuDrive is our new, highly accurate and more powerful temperature control system. labjr was closer to the truth when he said the “increased the wattage of the system to 120w maximum output, they had to use a different system of tips with heating elements of lower resistance.” To make a long story short, we were forced to change to AccuDrive as it allows us up to 120 Watts of power (improving performance) and uses a much more accurate (hence “AccuDrive”, about 5°F accuracy compared to IntelliHeat’s 12-15°F accuracy) temperature sensors. Unfortunately, our venerable Engineers could not come up with a way to make AccuDrive compatible with previous models. OMG another PACE connector? Yep (sorry).

Is ADS200 designed for the hobbyist? Not really, but we know the price point will be attractive to the hobbyist, more so than previous models. Dyaxxis mentioned his theory that AccuDrive “reduced the possible complexity costs associated with IntelliHeat” but this is not the case … the ADS200 has about 85% parts commonality with the previous WJS 100 and ST 50 units, but actually ends up costing PACE more! The difference is that management would like to sell more stations and make more of the money on Tips and consumables rather than make higher dollars on the front-end sale. Make sense?

To download a copy of our ADS200 Brochure go to https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_6pg_Brochure_FINAL.pdf. (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_6pg_Brochure_FINAL.pdf.) If you'd like to view our ADS200 YouTube video, go to www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uRO_RG1Qsk). Also, you might want to take a look at the ADS200 Quick Start Manual, which will give you an idea as to what to expect when you open the box: www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_QuickStart_Manual_3-Mar-2018.pdf (http://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_QuickStart_Manual_3-Mar-2018.pdf).

I’d be glad to answer any other questions you have. Please feel free to comment below!

Best,

Aaron from PACE
 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: CustomEngineerer on March 22, 2018, 10:47:26 pm
Wow, great info. Thanks!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on March 22, 2018, 10:48:24 pm
Available in March should be changed to Not Available in March.  ::)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 22, 2018, 11:07:31 pm
Hi Aaron,

Welcome! And thanks for wading into the forum here. Very informative reply.

I'm wondering if you have a ballpark estimate how long it takes to heat from cold to full temperature, say with a standard chisel tip?

I'm also wondering how well the built-in software setback works? How long does it take to wake when you remove the iron from the stand? Does it detect a thermal load instantly?

Thanks again, Hopefully we'll see more of your here.

     
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 22, 2018, 11:41:17 pm
Hey there labjr,

All Tip Heater Cartridges for the ADS200 take from 3-10 seconds to heat up from cold start, depending on the how massive the tip is. So they are very fast heat-up. A standard chisel tip should only take 4 seconds to heat up. If you're using a SetBack Tool Stand, the tip is already heated to at least 350°F so they only take 1-2 seconds max to reheat.

The built-in Setback works like this: If you have the Setback Timer set for 60 minutes, the system senses that the unit is not in use and starts a clock timer that lowers the temperature after it senses no thermal load or activity for 60 minutes. It will react and reset the timer if it senses more than 10° or 15°F variance. For example, if you touch the sponge it drops the temp significantly and resets the timer to 60 minutes again. If you have a fan or air conditioner blowing directly on the TD-200 Iron, it will never go into SetBack. By the way, I usually set up the internal SetBack to 90 minutes as I don't want the unit to go into the idle mode when I go to lunch. I much prefer the ISB Tool Stand as it goes into SetBack within 15 seconds, saving tip life (especially required for lead-free soldering, which is highly corrosive to iron plating on tips). I'm pretty sure you exit SetBack by pushing the Up or Down scroll keys on the front panel or by turning the unit off and then back on.

The unit detects thermal loads very quickly, but this depends upon the shape and mass of the tip. Generally, lower mass tips detect a load faster than the high-mass tips, but both are still sensing temperature change within 1 second.

Hope this helps,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on March 22, 2018, 11:42:46 pm
So heating performance on par with a Metcal - not bad for under half the price.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 22, 2018, 11:50:08 pm
It's closest to the performance of a Metcal or Hakko FX951 and even beats them both in many situations. It's also close to the performance of a JBC, but JBC will beat us with some of their larger tips. The trade-off is: do you want to pay $36 a tip and $600 for soldering station, when an ADS200 will perform just as well for 98% of your applications? Well, for $11 and $12 per tip, I think PACE has a much more reasonable deal!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on March 22, 2018, 11:53:31 pm
Well, personally I don't mind the $20-22 a tip when I already have the Metcal, but if I were looking at stations to buy right now.. Let's just say the ADS200 would be very high on my list subject to local stockists. And I'm a hobbyist! (spoilt by performant stations)

So as we haven't had a teardown yet that I know of.. Are these traditional AC heater stations with a big iron-core transformer?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 22, 2018, 11:57:25 pm
I've always been rather frugal and try to be resourceful. However, I may wait to see what the price difference is for the ISB stand.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 12:00:45 am
I'm hoping they price the ADS200 station with ISB Tool Stand at $270 US, but it's not up to me ...

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: blueskull on March 23, 2018, 12:09:32 am
Well, many hobbyists are also professional EEs, so I see no reason to exclude us from your audience.
As a hobbyist, I have a Metcal and I just ordered a JBC NASE today. A third 120W high power station is tempting, though I probably have spent too much on toys this month.

OT, but if you happen to have a demo unit, I would like to have a test drive and make a review video, here's my channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrYFeguyZcUcQIfr7aCn0UA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrYFeguyZcUcQIfr7aCn0UA)
I might even consider ordering one in the future. I live in Raleigh, so picking up should not be an issue.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 12:57:31 am
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for getting on the board.

I have a question on the tips do you expect to have others available later down the line? If so when?

When the Mini-Tweezers are released will there be a (ISB) tool stand for it? If so that would make the purchasing decision easier for me as I could purchase the Mini-Tweezer and (ISB) Tool stand and then purchase a second station when the ISB kits are available.

Also, if can provide the pin out for the ISB on the station that would be great I might just make something up to get be by until the stands are available.

If not, I can contact Tony in tech support tomorrow.

Thanks,
Dean 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 23, 2018, 02:20:28 am
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for getting on the board.

I have a question on the tips do you expect to have others available later down the line? If so when?

When the Mini-Tweezers are released will there be a (ISB) tool stand for it? If so that would make the purchasing decision easier for me as I could purchase the Mini-Tweezer and (ISB) Tool stand and then purchase a second station when the ISB kits are available.

Also, if can provide the pin out for the ISB on the station that would be great I might just make something up to get be by until the stands are available.

If not, I can contact Tony in tech support tomorrow.

Thanks,
Dean

I imagine the ISB pinout is the same as the other Pace stations. Maybe Aaron can confirm this. If the difference turns out to be $30, I'll probably wait for it.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 23, 2018, 02:32:45 am
Great Info!  I just added this to my shortlist
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on March 23, 2018, 03:14:36 am

Status of ADS200 Production: we’re in very limited production of the station right now because of a shortage of key parts, so you probably won’t see high quantities of the ADS200 in the US until early April, and about 3 weeks later for Europe (we ship from our North Carolina factory to our UK office).

I know Canada is just America's hat, but are Canadian orders on the same time-frame as the US? I already donated one of my Hakko 936s and pre-ordered a 200 here in Montreal.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 03:24:30 am
Ok pulled the trigger on the Pace and 16 tips should be here next week or the 2nd of April.

TEquipment has 30 of them being delivered on the 3/27/18 not sure on the tips but I order enough that I should get at least a few when it ships.

I was going back a forth on this or a Hakko and decide to give Pace a go. The last Pace I had was a ST-45 with a PS-90 Handpiece.

I currently have a JBC Dual station with de-soldering and soldering but I needed another soldering station and just did not want to spend the Money on the JBC don’t get me wrong it’s an excellent system, but I just don’t think the tips stay wet enough.

So, for just shy of $400 I have a new station and 16 tips.  :-DD

I will update once I receive the unit…..

Now back to the repairs so I can pay for my new toy if the weekend goes well I should have it paid for before it get here.  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 03:39:43 am
Just a side note this is why it cost so much for JBC.

I ordered some filters for the de-soldering hand piece and I ordered them direct because of the free shipping and the total order was only $27.00. I could not find the filters at any of the dealers and even if they had them it would have cost more for the shipping then the items.  :-DD

Check out the tracking info. They Shipped it from SPAIN because the did not have them stock in the US. It’s a consumable how can they not have them   :palm: :palm:

Quote
LIVONIA,  MI,  US   03/15/2018   2:48 P.M.   Delivered
03/15/2018   8:55 A.M.   Out For Delivery Today
03/15/2018   7:30 A.M.   Destination Scan
03/15/2018   6:30 A.M.   Arrival Scan Romulus,  MI,  United States   03/15/2018   5:57 A.M.   Departure Scan
03/15/2018   5:17 A.M.   Arrival Scan Rockford,  IL,  United States   03/15/2018   3:27 A.M.   Departure Scan
Rockford,  IL,  United States   03/14/2018   11:33 P.M.   Arrival Scan
Philadelphia,  PA,  United States   03/14/2018   10:29 P.M.   Departure Scan
03/14/2018   11:00 A.M.   Import Scan
03/14/2018   10:32 A.M.   Warehouse Scan
03/13/2018   5:52 P.M.   Your package was released by the customs agency.
03/13/2018   5:48 P.M.   The shipment value is missing from the invoice and is required for clearance. We're working to obtain this information. / Brokerage released the package. It will be processed through a clearing agency before final release to UPS.
Philadelphia,  PA,  United States   03/13/2018   4:51 P.M.   Warehouse Scan
03/13/2018   8:49 A.M.   Arrival Scan
03/13/2018   6:59 A.M.   The shipment value is missing from the invoice and is required for clearance. We're working to obtain this information.
Koeln,  Germany   03/13/2018   6:00 A.M.   Departure Scan
03/13/2018   12:31 A.M.   Arrival Scan
de Llobreg,  Spain   03/12/2018   10:36 P.M.   Departure Scan
03/12/2018   10:00 P.M.   Arrival Scan
Barcelona,  Spain   03/12/2018   9:40 P.M.   Departure Scan
03/12/2018   9:19 P.M.   Origin Scan
03/12/2018   9:00 P.M.   Your package was released by the customs agency.
03/12/2018   2:11 P.M.   Your package is being reviewed by the customs agency.
03/12/2018   6:32 P.M.   Your package was released by the customs agency.
Spain   03/12/2018   2:02 P.M.   Order Processed: Ready for UPS
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 23, 2018, 04:31:23 am
Does anyone know if the tip of the iron would be at the same potential as the logic level ground at the ISB port in the back?  If so, that would seem to make it simple to trigger the instant setback.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 10:15:45 am


I have a question on the tips do you expect to have others available later down the line? If so when?

When the Mini-Tweezers are released will there be a (ISB) tool stand for it? If so that would make the purchasing decision easier for me as I could purchase the Mini-Tweezer and (ISB) Tool stand and then purchase a second station when the ISB kits are available.

Also, if can provide the pin out for the ISB on the station that would be great I might just make something up to get be by until the stands are available.

If not, I can contact Tony in tech support tomorrow.

Thanks,
Dean


Hi Dean,

Tip variety will grow as time goes on. The tips are a close match to the original Tip-Heater Cartridges designed for the TD-100 (the Soldering Iron used in the ST-series of stations and WJS 100) except the sensors and heating element wires are different. But the iron-plated tip ends are the same. So we can easily add older style tip geometries if the customer demand is there. For example, if we get a request for one SOIC-16 Removal Tip for the new TD-200 Iron, we can fabricate the tip using the existing iron-plated tip end along with the newer sensor & wire. But we probably won't add a new tip until we see that there is a decent demand for more than one piece or one request - you wouldn't believe the amount of time, paperwork and number of engineering drawings that is generated for a new saleable SKU, despite the fact that we have all the materials!

Concerning the MiniTweezer handpiece, there will be an ISB Tool Stand for the handpiece, but probably not until 3 months after MiniTweez introduction. I know Engineering is working on it, but I have yet to see anything.

I'm pretty sure the pin-out for the ISB connector on the back panel of the ADS200 is the same as our previous models (ST 30, ST 50, ST 70, WJS 100) but they are using a different technique to detect whether a handpiece is in the Tool Stand. You might want to call Tony as he's a lot more technical than I!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 10:21:02 am

I imagine the ISB pinout is the same as the other Pace stations. Maybe Aaron can confirm this. If the difference turns out to be $30, I'll probably wait for it.


Yes, I'm pretty sure the pin-out is the same. I'll check and get back with you.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 10:27:24 am
Does anyone know of the tip of the iron would be at the same potential as the logic level ground at the ISB port in the back?  If so, that would seem to make it simple to trigger the instant setback.

Our Engineers decided upon an electromechanical switch on the left side of the Tool Stand holster to trigger the SetBack mode. We've used a capacitance sensor in the past which proved unreliable.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 11:11:50 am
Does anyone know of the tip of the iron would be at the same potential as the logic level ground at the ISB port in the back?  If so, that would seem to make it simple to trigger the instant setback.

Our Engineers decided upon an electromechanical switch on the left side of the Tool Stand holster to trigger the SetBack mode. We've used a capacitance sensor in the past which proved unreliable.

Do you think we could get a picture of the ISB Tool Stand? I would like to see that switch you're talking about.  ;D

I fully understand on the tips, but we need to see some bevel tips one of the main reason I almost went with the Hakko.

Here are a few Hakko tip numbers I would like to see for sure. TC-BC1, T15-BC2, TC-BC12

Remember if you don't make them you can't sell them, and most people are not going to wait months for a tip if the job calls for it. :-DD

Plus, you said Pace decided to make less on the station and make it up on the tips.  :-+

Like I said earlier I spent almost as much on the tips as I did the station. Different jobs require different tips and I love having a selection on hand even if I only use it a few times at the cost of the new tips I will make my money back on one repair.   :-+ :-DD

I also don’t understand the 3-month delay for the ISB after the tweezer are release this is going to cost you sales.  :palm: :palm:

Thanks,
Dean

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 11:32:30 am

Do you think we could get a picture of the ISB Tool Stand? I would like to see that switch you're talking about.  ;D


The only image I have does not show the switch! But when I get back to the office on Monday (I'm home-officed on Fridays), I can snap a photo of it.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 11:35:38 am

Do you think we could get a picture of the ISB Tool Stand? I would like to see that switch you're talking about.  ;D


The only image I have does not show the switch! But when I get back to the office on Monday (I'm home-officed on Fridays), I can snap a photo of it.

Aaron

Excellent I look forward to seeing the picture and thanks for the support makes me feel good to support Pace again sure hope I like the unit.  :-DD

Ok so I went a looked at the TD-100 Tips and here are a few of the tips I would like to see.

1126-0637-P1
1126-0625-P1
1126-0628-P1

Thanks again,
Dean
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 11:40:30 am
One other thing who decided to use fractions on the new AccuDrive tips and Decimal on the TD-100 tips?

Sure, makes it a pain to cross the sizes  :-- :--
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 11:45:13 am


I fully understand on the tips, but we need to see some bevel tips one of the main reason I almost went with the Hakko.

Here are a few Hakko tip numbers I would like to see for sure. TC-BC1, T15-BC2, TC-BC12

Remember if you don't make them you can't sell them, and most people are not going to wait months for a tip if the job calls for it. :-DD

Plus, you said Pace decided to make less on the station and make it up on the tips.  :-+

Like I said earlier I spent almost as much on the tips as I did the station. Different jobs require different tips and I love having a selection on hand even if I only use it a few times at the cost of the new tips I will make my money back on one repair.   :-+ :-DD


I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 23, 2018, 11:48:26 am


I fully understand on the tips, but we need to see some bevel tips one of the main reason I almost went with the Hakko.

Here are a few Hakko tip numbers I would like to see for sure. TC-BC1, T15-BC2, TC-BC12

Remember if you don't make them you can't sell them, and most people are not going to wait months for a tip if the job calls for it. :-DD

Plus, you said Pace decided to make less on the station and make it up on the tips.  :-+

Like I said earlier I spent almost as much on the tips as I did the station. Different jobs require different tips and I love having a selection on hand even if I only use it a few times at the cost of the new tips I will make my money back on one repair.   :-+ :-DD


I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.

I ordered one in both standard and Ultra-Performance  :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 11:57:54 am

I also don’t understand the 3-month delay for the ISB after the tweezer are release this is going to cost you sales.  :palm: :palm:


It's a resource issue. We have a limited amount of Engineering talent and one particular Engineer is assigned to the MiniTweez. Traditionally, we do not have the Tip-Life issues on our thermal tweezer products because they are usually not used constantly throughout the day. And since we already have a Tool Stand that fits perfectly on the new MiniTweez, an ISB version is not the highest priority. But it's on the agenda as a "must-have" product, so it will arrive at some point in time.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 12:02:11 pm
One other thing who decided to use fractions on the new AccuDrive tips and Decimal on the TD-100 tips?

Sure, makes it a pain to cross the sizes  :-- :--

Ahem. I may have had some influence on that decision ... I told you I was an old fart!  :-[

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 12:29:54 pm
One other thing who decided to use fractions on the new AccuDrive tips and Decimal on the TD-100 tips?

Sure, makes it a pain to cross the sizes  :-- :--

Ahem. I may have had some influence on that decision ... I told you I was an old fart!  :-[

Aaron

By the way, I forgot to mention that the last 4 characters of the TD-100 part number correspond to the new ADS200 "Blue Series" tip part number. So a MiniWave Tip PN 1124-0032-P1 for the TD-100 Iron are the exact same geometry as the ADS200 MiniWave Tip PN 1130-0032-P1 (the "P1" means package of 1). All the standard sized tips begin with "1130" while the Ultra-Performance versions (the tips that are thicker at the end) begin with "1131" - the 1131 Tips have the same last 4 characters as the WJS "Gold Series Tips. So the ADS200 1/4” Flat Blade (6.35mm)    P/N 1131-0037-P1 has the identical shape as the WJS 100's PN 1128-0037-P1. Yep, it's confusing ...   
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on March 23, 2018, 01:51:18 pm
It's closest to the performance of a Metcal or Hakko FX951 and even beats them both in many situations. It's also close to the performance of a JBC, but JBC will beat us with some of their larger tips. The trade-off is: do you want to pay $36 a tip and $600 for soldering station, when an ADS200 will perform just as well for 98% of your applications? Well, for $11 and $12 per tip, I think PACE has a much more reasonable deal!

It's great to see an official Pace Worldwide rep actively participating here, especially with the friendly clarification of information much more than I originally expected.

I'll openly admit that one of the reasons mentioned in the quote above is why I chose a JBC CD and NASE: tips and hand pieces necessary to complete the asks I need. Most will NOT need what I have to use, but I work with items that are 0201 and smaller, having tight confines, multilayer boards having large thermal/ground planes, high component density with "hybrid technologies", and reworking/repairing within some very tight specifications necessary. Call my statement what you will, but that's just what I must work with.

Honestly, I don't regret that decision, but if I discover the options that Pace will eventually develop for the AccuDrive series will similarly fit those needs, then I'd certainly purchase an AccuDrive without hesitation. And yes... Here's a picture of the Pace stations I still have and will keep indefinitely:


Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 02:00:54 pm
Here's a picture of the Pace stations I still have and will keep indefinitely:

Ahhh ... a blast from the past! The venerable MBT250, the SMR 25 and the Pik & Paste (I hated that unit - so freakin' loud!). Thanks for your comments!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on March 23, 2018, 05:43:20 pm
While on the subject of the venerable PACE tools (and somewhat of a digression from the thread's topic), do you know why PACE discontinued their Pulse-Plating tools? It was over a decade ago, I think. Something about the regulatory issues surrounding toxic liquids?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 06:29:30 pm
While on the subject of the venerable PACE tools (and somewhat of a digression from the thread's topic), do you know why PACE discontinued their Pulse-Plating tools? It was over a decade ago, I think. Something about the regulatory issues surrounding toxic liquids?

It was 2 things. We were having a ton of problems shipping the Electroclean (for cleaning off oxides) and the essential Gold plating solutions. It was especially difficult to ship the Gold Solution which was dissolved in cyanide. It was hit or miss whether we could ship it overseas, sometimes being rejected and coming back weeks after shipment. One of our main Plating customers, the US Navy, determined the solutions were hazardous and required an expensive safety cabinet be used at all times, and key Military specifiers determined it was too much hassle to procure - they cut it from the spec. Shipping prices rose, while sales dropped to practically zero. We finally threw in the towel and discontinued the product in the mid-90's.  :'(
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2018, 07:56:18 pm
I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 23, 2018, 08:04:06 pm
I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough

Exactly right! These were designed for drag soldering, which we call "MiniWave" soldering, because it mimics miniature wave soldering. See our Process Guide page and click on "Play Video" for a 30 second demo at:

https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02 (https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02)

The spoon portion of the tip holds more solder, allowing you to install more than one side at a time.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 23, 2018, 09:55:46 pm
Since you've been around the business for a while, maybe you can recommend Pace tips which are popular for point-to-point wiring and old-fashioned chassis components, terminal strips etc.? I mostly repair and modify older audio equipment, vacuum tube electronics, some thru-hole PCBs, and a small amount of newer SMD. I'd like to use tips which will enable me to increase productivity, reduce damage to components and do neater work.

I've been using a Weller EC1002 type irons with standard ETA tips for about 25 years. Before that it was pencil irons. You know the kind where you file the tip? :D My dad actually built many ham radios and projects with those irons. I've built a Heathkit or two with them.

One problem I have is that  I have to crank up the Weller for many connections. So in the time it takes the iron to recover, the joint tends to overheat, the solder flows down before it solidifies and the joint becomes dry. Then I have to clean up drips. I'm thinking the ability to apply higher power more quickly will actually allow me to solder at lower temperatures.
 
I know it takes a knack to be good. I've seen equipment that looks like like art work which was built before modern soldering stations.

Thanks,

Larry
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 23, 2018, 10:18:14 pm
Since you've been around the business for a while, maybe you can recommend Pace tips which are popular for point-to-point wiring and old-fashioned chassis components, terminal strips etc.? I mostly repair and modify older audio equipment, vacuum tube electronics, some thru-hole PCBs, and a small amount of newer SMD. I'd like to use tips which will enable me to increase productivity, reduce damage to components and do neater work.

I've been using a Weller EC1002 type irons with standard ETA tips for about 25 years. Before that it was pencil irons. You know the kind where you file the tip? :D My dad actually built many ham radios and projects with those irons. I've built a Heathkit or two with them.

One problem I have is that  I have to crank up the Weller for many connections. So in the time it takes the iron to recover, the joint tends to overheat, the solder flows down before it solidifies and the joint becomes dry. Then I have to clean up drips. I'm thinking the ability to apply higher power more quickly will actually allow me to solder at lower temperatures.
 
I know it takes a knack to be good. I've seen equipment that looks like like art work which was built before modern soldering stations.

Thanks,

Larry

Hah!  Im in your boat...  the more i keep looking at this pace the more i feel im being sucked in.  Recommended tips for power electronics with minimal oxidizing?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 23, 2018, 10:38:20 pm
Is it even possible for Pace tips to oxidize?  ;)  Don't they have the secret sauce?
I bought my current iron (PACE) and tips about 15 years ago and am still happy with them...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 23, 2018, 11:11:53 pm
Is it even possible for Pace tips to oxidize?  ;)  Don't they have the secret sauce?
I bought my current iron (PACE) and tips about 15 years ago and am still happy with them...

Yeah, leaded solder. I'll use it until there's no alternative.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 23, 2018, 11:22:22 pm
Is it even possible for Pace tips to oxidize?  ;)  Don't they have the secret sauce?
I bought my current iron (PACE) and tips about 15 years ago and am still happy with them...

Yeah, leaded solder. I'll use it until there's no alternative.

Good for home use but I got the short end with wait for it... rhos  :--.  Meanwhile my ancient weller set is like new that i use lead on with standard cleaning techniques
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 23, 2018, 11:29:07 pm
I consider lead-free hazardous to my tools.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on March 23, 2018, 11:39:43 pm
I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough

Exactly right! These were designed for drag soldering, which we call "MiniWave" soldering, because it mimics miniature wave soldering. See our Process Guide page and click on "Play Video" for a 30 second demo at:

https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02 (https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02)

The spoon portion of the tip holds more solder, allowing you to install more than one side at a time.

PACE to everyone else translation: Hoof tip. :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2018, 11:59:51 pm
I consider lead-free hazardous to my tools.
And the flux fumes are nastier
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: joeqsmith on March 24, 2018, 03:20:46 am
The only problem I have had was one time the password and other settings became corrupt.   There was no information about how to clear it on their site.  No 24 hour hot line.  So a bit of reverse engineering required to solve it.   IMO, this is a design flaw and not to have a documented way to recover it is a fail.    It has never happened since and that iron sees a lot of use.   
 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698)

My iron is all original, including the tips.   If I buy a brand new one, is it going to be as reliable?   
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on March 24, 2018, 09:24:05 am
Aaron,

If I purchase the ADS200 from TEquipment right now with the standard tool stand, will I be able to separately purchase the ISB Tool Stand for a reasonable price at a later time?  I was going to buy a Hakko FX951, but this new Pace unit seems like a good choice as well.

**edit** found the part# info on your ADS200 page at the bottom.
"Optional Instant SetBack (ISB) Tool Stand   Optionally available as P/N 6019-0089-P1 or standard as part of ADS200 Stations P/N 8007-0579 or P/N 8007-0581"

What would the ballpark price be on the separate stand--just need to see how much more the combined price would be?

Also, can you describe the difference between the Ultra-Performance and Standard tips? In particular in terms of longevity.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 07:16:09 pm
Since there have been a bunch of questions on tip life, I thought it might be a good idea to talk about the things that will help extend the life of ALL your soldering iron tips. Most of these are common-sense soldering practices, but I thought it might be useful to some of the members of this group.

Most soldering iron tips are constructed in the following manner:

How does lead-free affect soldering? There is a higher tin content, higher melting points, tighter process window, decreased wetting, longer dwell times, duller solder joints – all these elements can affect tip life. It's been estimated that Tip life can be decreased by up to 2/3 when using lead-free!

Increased Tin Content + Higher Temperatures = Aggressive Corrosion: Lead-free solder is much more corrosive to iron-plating than standard 63/37 tin-lead alloy, especially at elevated temperatures. Higher Sn (tin) content, higher idling temperatures, greater rate of oxidation, and rapid flux degeneration all contribute to lower tip life. The most important thing to remember is the higher the tip temperature, the higher the likelihood of increased plating erosion due to iron leaching.

Oxidation is the enemy of your tip, so use low temperatures: Whether using lead-free or not, the higher the tip temperature, the more the working end of the tip will be oxidized. In practice, use the lowest possible temperature you can to do the job. 

Use optimized tip geometries: You should select the shortest and thickest tip that will allow access to the workpiece for highest heat transfer & lowest temperatures. I realize many people prefer fine-point and necked down tips as they improve access to small components and joints. However, a fine-point conical tip severely limits your heat pathway and may force you to use higher temperatures. Copper is more evenly distributed in thicker tips – thus better heat transfer. Better heat flow = lower temperature soldering. Ultra-fine conical tips have a limited heat pathway, less copper at end of tip, heavy iron at end of tip and thus less thermal transfer.

Do not apply pressure or an abrasive scrubing motion: If you are heavy handed in your soldering, you may cause stress/cracking failures in the iron plating. You should use the same pressure as you would writing with a soft #2 pencil. Also, do not scrub the lead of a component as this can lead to a scratch in the iron plating, resulting in a pit which will start the rapid dissolution of copper, eating the core away within hours, and leading to a hollow & ruined tip!

Cover the working end of the tip with solder: this helps add a protective layer of solder (which again prevents oxidation) over the sensitive iron plating.

For leaded solder, use clean, damp sulfur-free sponges: I say damp because a totally drenched sponge will drop the temperature of the tip too radically. Household sponges are also a no-no, as they contain sulfur, which will contaminate your tips! Also you might consider using distilled water as tap water contains additives & minerals that can damage a tip’s plating/reduce its life.

For Lead-Free solder, use Brass Wool: Lead-free solder uses some nastier fluxes which can be tough to remove using a standard sponge, so you may wish to use the “brass wool” cleaner (looks like a Brillo-Pad). It’s a little more abrasive, but in many cases necessary for proper cleaning of lead-free tips. If necessary, restore detinned tips with “Tip-Tinner” (that chemical you dip your tips in when all else fails) - yes, it's abrasive, but better than a detinned or dewetted tip that cannot be used..

Turn off the iron: When not in use, turn it off!

Use a soldering iron system with “Setback” or “Auto-Off” feature: As we’ve been discussing in this thread, use an iron that automatically “sets-back” the temperature to below solder melt (under 350°F/177°C). Setting the temperature below solder-melt is one of the best ways to eliminate oxidation of the tip, and thus extend tip life.

Do any of you have any other suggestions?

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on March 26, 2018, 07:30:40 pm
Do any of you have any other suggestions?

Additionally, I tend to use a "less-aggressive" tip cleaning technique when using the "brass-wool" and/or moderately moist tip cleaning sponge. I've never had the need with SAC 305 to aggressively stab the tip into brass wool or to mash the tip down on the wet sponge. I simply "sweep" the excess solder and/or contamination off of the tip, which is almost always sufficient for a clean tip to prevent major contamination.

Just my 2 cents from experience.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 07:41:01 pm
Since you've been around the business for a while, maybe you can recommend Pace tips which are popular for point-to-point wiring and old-fashioned chassis components, terminal strips etc.? I mostly repair and modify older audio equipment, vacuum tube electronics, some thru-hole PCBs, and a small amount of newer SMD. I'd like to use tips which will enable me to increase productivity, reduce damage to components and do neater work.

Thanks,

Larry

Sorry for delay in answering your question, I've been away for the weekend! If sales history is any indication, some of the more popular style tips for the ADS200 are likely to be:
The above tip styles are pretty popular so you might want to try them out.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on March 26, 2018, 07:46:48 pm
Do not run fans or equipment with fans near the iron stand.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 07:59:47 pm
Hah!  Im in your boat...  the more i keep looking at this pace the more i feel im being sucked in.  Recommended tips for power electronics with minimal oxidizing?

If you're working with heat-sinking power electronics, I recommend our Ultra-Performance Tips, which are designed with optimized tip geometries and increased thermal pipeline to deliver the maximum heat throughput. They are thicker and shorter tips, designed to transfer heat. Go to www.paceworldwide.com/ads200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/ads200) and click on the "Tip-Heater Cartridges" link at the top of the page.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 08:40:54 pm
What would the ballpark price be on the separate stand--just need to see how much more the combined price would be?

I'm hoping the combined price of the ADS200 with SetBack Tool Stand will be $270, but it could go up or down depending on a meeting we are having this Thursday. We'll be pinning down the price of the SetBack Tool Stand and combine ADS200 with SetBack on this date, so I'll give an update later this week.   

Also, can you describe the difference between the Ultra-Performance and Standard tips? In particular in terms of longevity.

The Standard Tips are based on the most popular Tip Heater Cartridge geometries used on our previous IntelliHeat controlled soldering stations (e.g. ST-50, ST-30, ST-70), while the Ultra-Performance Tips are based on the thicker and higher thermal mass WJS 100 tips. See the attached image. The Standard Tips are thinner (and cost a bit less) than the thicker Ultra-Performance Tips.

Concerning tip life, the Ultra-Performance Tips are likely to last longer, especially when compared to the fine-point tips, because the protective iron plating is much more consistent all the way around since the tip end is physically larger. Of course, this will depend upon your using the "common sense soldering practices" that I discussed below.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: NegativeONE on March 26, 2018, 09:04:19 pm
Hi Aaron, so it will be possible to buy one ADS200 with Set-back stand in UK by the end of April? What is the best option to buy: directly from Pace or you can recommended an UK distributors which will have them on stock?

Another hobby use... :)
l
Question: if I decide to buy mini-tweezers can I operate them at the same time with soldering iron without disconnecting it? Or do I need a second base unit for this ? 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 26, 2018, 09:16:01 pm
Hah!  Im in your boat...  the more i keep looking at this pace the more i feel im being sucked in.  Recommended tips for power electronics with minimal oxidizing?

If you're working with heat-sinking power electronics, I recommend our Ultra-Performance Tips, which are designed with optimized tip geometries and increased thermal pipeline to deliver the maximum heat throughput. They are thicker and shorter tips, designed to transfer heat. Go to www.paceworldwide.com/ads200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/ads200) and click on the "Tip-Heater Cartridges" link at the top of the page.

Aaron

Yup!  After looking it over I bought one last night and an assortment of tips suited to that and some others.. really like the J hook/bent style ones too for those qfns

Now just need a stand, hopefully its not to much more on its own vs packaged!  Or us forum users can get a deal ;p

Think I was at 280 out the door.  The tip price is fantastic... Probly get more once it comes in mid April or so.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 09:32:03 pm
Hi Aaron, so it will be possible to buy one ADS200 with Set-back stand in UK by the end of April? What is the best option to buy: directly from Pace or you can recommended an UK distributors which will have them on stock?

Another hobby use... :)
l
Question: if I decide to buy mini-tweezers can I operate them at the same time with soldering iron without disconnecting it? Or do I need a second base unit for this ?

The standard ADS unit will be available by the end of April, but I doubt the ADS200 with SetBack Tool Stand will be available until mid-May. Mainly because the parts for the Tool Stand all arrive during the 3rd week of April, meaning it will take time to assemble, then it takes 3 weeks to ship to UK (we ship all stock to PACE Europe via slow boat to China ...).

Concerning the best option to buy, you can equally purchase direct through our website or through a distributor. In the UK, it may be faster to buy direct, but I'd recommend you buy through the local distributor if you are located outside of the UK in Europe. If you are already buying through a PACE authorized distributor, go with that distributor. For European Distributors, see the link below:

www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/europe (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/europe)

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 26, 2018, 09:41:52 pm
Aaron, thanks for providing so much useful information. Some advice I'd never think of.

Since I do service work I'd expect to go through tips faster than is typical for a production environment with new assembly. Removing old components tends to be rough tips. Sometimes the solder joint can be 40-50 years old or more and have no idea what type of solder was used back in the day. Perhaps I should use separate tips for those jobs.

I use more than one type of solder too but always leaded types. I tend to use 60/40 on repair work or especially older stuff because I think it mixes well with older solder, as opposed to eutectic types. I used to buy Radio Shack solder because I liked the flow. I use Kester 63/37 for new clean joints and connectors microphone/ guitar cables etc. I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic solder for some higher end work.
 
Do you know if it's bad for tips to mix solder types? Are some fluxes more corrosive to the tips? Have you run into situations where certain brands of solder are more corrosive to tips?

Sorry to ask so many questions.

Thanks
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 09:47:12 pm
Question: if I decide to buy mini-tweezers can I operate them at the same time with soldering iron without disconnecting it? Or do I need a second base unit for this ?

Oops, I missed this question. Since the ADS200 is a single output system, you would have to unplug the TD-200 Iron and then plug in the MiniTweez. The unit and handpieces are "hot-swappable", meaning you can unplug the Iron and plug in the MiniTweez without having to turn off the unit. The ADS200 has been designed to stack so you could dedicate one unit to soldering and the other to MiniTweez if you wanted, but it will cost you more money, of course. See photo below.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 26, 2018, 10:03:59 pm
Aaron, thanks for providing so much useful information. Some advice I'd never think of.

Since I do service work I'd expect to go through tips faster than is typical for a production environment with new assembly. Removing old components tends to be rough tips. Sometimes the solder joint can be 40-50 years old or more and have no idea what type of solder was used back in the day. Perhaps I should use separate tips for those jobs.

I use more than one type of solder too but always leaded types. I tend to use 60/40 on repair work or especially older stuff because I think it mixes well with older solder, as opposed to eutectic types. I used to buy Radio Shack solder because I liked the flow. I use Kester 63/37 for new clean joints and connectors microphone/ guitar cables etc. I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic solder for some higher end work.
 
Do you know if it's bad for tips to mix solder types? Are some fluxes more corrosive to the tips? Have you run into situations where certain brands of solder are more corrosive to tips?

Sorry to ask so many questions.

Thanks

I use separate tips, the main one you dont want to cross is rhos vs lead...  i still have like new tips for my weller due to much to what he spelled out earlier. Also avoid being abrasive with your tips, that goes for both making the joint and cleaning afterwards. 

You might also consider using a different tip for removal of junk parts where you can be more abrasive in the removal process and not worry so much about destroying your good tip
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 26, 2018, 10:17:33 pm
I use more than one type of solder too but always leaded types. I tend to use 60/40 on repair work or especially older stuff because I think it mixes well with older solder, as opposed to eutectic types. I used to buy Radio Shack solder because I liked the flow. I use Kester 63/37 for new clean joints and connectors microphone/ guitar cables etc. I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic solder for some higher end work.
 
Do you know if it's bad for tips to mix solder types? Are some fluxes more corrosive to the tips? Have you run into situations where certain brands of solder are more corrosive to tips?

Sorry to ask so many questions.

Thanks

No problem on the questions! I think it's technically ok to mix solder types, as long as the end result is already a tin-lead alloy. Eutectic solder (63/37) has no plastic range, meaning it changes from solid to liquidus at exactly 183°C/361°F. 60/40 solder starts to melt at 183°C/361°F but is not fully liquidus until it reaches 188°C (370°F) and therefore has a plastic range of 5°C/9°F. This means that you are more likely to have a disturbed joint if you move the component or lead while it is still solidifying. So with eutectic (63/37) solder it melts within 1°F/C and you are less likely to have bad solder joints. So at its worst, you might be changing the melting point or plastic range a bit by mixing the 2 alloys together, but if you are a decent solderer, it doesn't matter.

Now let's look at the opposite situation: mixing leaded with lead-free solder - this is a definite no-no! It's of much more concern as you have just violated the pcb's RoHS status ... it is no longer complient with RoHS regulation as it is not lead-free!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 26, 2018, 10:19:20 pm

I use separate tips, the main one you dont want to cross is rhos vs lead...  i still have like new tips for my weller due to much to what he spelled out earlier. Also avoid being abrasive with your tips, that goes for both making the joint and cleaning afterwards. 

You might also consider using a different tip for removal of junk parts where you can be more abrasive in the removal process and not worry so much about destroying your good tip

Sometimes I tend pry component leads with the tip of the iron. Especially if I'm getting frustrated with a difficult job. The Weller tips have held up pretty well considering. If Pace tips last as long I'll be happy. They're reasonably priced. BTW, I've always used a wet sponge to clean the tip. I probably should change my bad habits. It may be difficult though because something about cleaning without a liquid bothers me. I have a bit of OCD. Always washing my hands. I worked with an engineer who used to clean tip of the iron on the front of his jeans.
 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 26, 2018, 11:11:14 pm
Something I forgot to ask, does the same bracket 1321-0609-P1 also fit this?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 27, 2018, 03:44:50 am
Something I forgot to ask, does the same bracket 1321-0609-P1 also fit this?

Yes, the Optional Mounting Bracket PN 1321-0609-P1 will work with the ADS200.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 28, 2018, 01:01:17 pm
I ordered one from TEquipment to give a try to!  I've been using a WES51 which takes it time flowing the pads of some SMA diodes a 700 deg F, so I'm curious to see how the Pace does with those.  I am also wanting smaller/more precise tips for 0.5mm pitch stuff and perhaps to try my luck at some drag soldering.  I like the idea of an aluminum iron - it looks nice and compact.

What is special about the 1130-0050-P1 tip (it says it is special!)?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 28, 2018, 01:29:03 pm
Your stations are out of my budget, unfortunately. It sure looks like a good station though!

When you design and test soldering tips, which solder is being used?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 28, 2018, 01:55:57 pm
When you design and test soldering tips, which solder is being used?
IMHO, if they make mil-spec products for NASA, they're sure to test with all solder compositions.
(https://s31.postimg.org/ngl0salxn/Pace_at_NASA.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 02:26:42 pm
I ordered one from TEquipment to give a try to!  I've been using a WES51 which takes it time flowing the pads of some SMA diodes a 700 deg F, so I'm curious to see how the Pace does with those.  I am also wanting smaller/more precise tips for 0.5mm pitch stuff and perhaps to try my luck at some drag soldering.  I like the idea of an aluminum iron - it looks nice and compact.

What is special about the 1130-0050-P1 tip (it says it is special!)?

It's a special version of our 1/128” Conical (0.20mm) 1130-0036-P1 Tip. We slightly beveled the ends of the extremely fine point end of the 0036 tip (generally used for micro-soldering and 0201/0402 soldering), so that it would transfer more heat. See image attached.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 02:46:01 pm
When you design and test soldering tips, which solder is being used?

All of our tips are designed to work with lead-free solder, SAC 305 in particular. All tips are plated with a protective coating of iron from 7-9mils thick, which are the minimum/maximum thickness of iron plating you want for lead-free applications. If there is too little iron plating (e.g. 4-5 mils), the tips will not last long as lead-free solder is aggressively corrosive at any temperature over solder melt. In general, the higher the tin content, the more destructive to the protective iron plating. If there is too much iron plating (11+mils), the tip will take much longer to heat up and will not respond quickly. Note that when tips are designed for lead-free use, the tips work fabulously with leaded solder and last much longer.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 28, 2018, 03:33:56 pm
Is the full user guide available yet?  I saw a link to it in the quick start, but it doesn't work.

Also, is there a minimum temp for the min-max temp range AND/OR the 3 user settings?

I don't often leave an iron on, but I figured since I was not getting the base that can sleep that I'd just change the temp manually using that 3 presets.  I could just set one of the presets to a low number like 300 deg F, etc.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 03:49:09 pm
Is the full user guide available yet?  I saw a link to it in the quick start, but it doesn't work.

Also, is there a minimum temp for the min-max temp range AND/OR the 3 user settings?

I don't often leave an iron on, but I figured since I was not getting the base that can sleep that I'd just change the temp manually using that 3 presets.  I could just set one of the presets to a low number like 300 deg F, etc.

Hey, that's an outstanding idea about pre-setting a lower temperature! Temperature range is 193-454°C (380-850°F) -- the unit comes with a default setting of 500°-800°F but this range can be changed. All Pre-Set temperatures can be changed by going into a Program Mode, so yes, you could program a pre-set for 380°F or 193°C. Not optimum for an idling temperature (better if it were a bit lower), but definitely adequate!

The full Operations Manual is being worked on as we speak and should be online by early next week.

Great suggestion on the Pre-Set!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 28, 2018, 04:38:17 pm
Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions.  No reason not to have that flexibility, right?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 28, 2018, 04:48:47 pm
Also - another question.  I noticed in the video there was a clip device used for changing tips to keep from burning your hands, etc.  Is that included with the ADS200?  I saw in some videos that you use to use a flexible heat pad it looked like.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 06:06:10 pm
Also - another question.  I noticed in the video there was a clip device used for changing tips to keep from burning your hands, etc.  Is that included with the ADS200?  I saw in some videos that you use to use a flexible heat pad it looked like.

Yes, the Tip Tool comes with the ADS200, and also includes the Silicone Pad. I much prefer the Tip Tool (it's safer and faster when changing tips) - and cringe when I see someone using that Pad! The Pad attaches to the cord, but it weighs it down. The Tip Tool stores easily in the front of the Tool Stand. With the Tip Tool, you can easily change a hot tip within 2 seconds. See attached image.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 06:07:49 pm
Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions.  No reason not to have that flexibility, right?

I will make the suggestion!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 28, 2018, 06:36:36 pm
I don't imagine the firmware is user upgradable, is it?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 06:41:28 pm
I don't imagine the firmware is user upgradable, is it?

No it's not normally user-upgradeable since we have to reprogram a component then change it out.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 28, 2018, 07:58:51 pm
Is the full user guide available yet?  I saw a link to it in the quick start, but it doesn't work.

Also, is there a minimum temp for the min-max temp range AND/OR the 3 user settings?

I don't often leave an iron on, but I figured since I was not getting the base that can sleep that I'd just change the temp manually using that 3 presets.  I could just set one of the presets to a low number like 300 deg F, etc.

Hey, that's an outstanding idea about pre-setting a lower temperature! Temperature range is 193-454°C (380-850°F) -- the unit comes with a default setting of 500°-800°F but this range can be changed. All Pre-Set temperatures can be changed by going into a Program Mode, so yes, you could program a pre-set for 380°F or 193°C. Not optimum for an idling temperature (better if it were a bit lower), but definitely adequate!

The full Operations Manual is being worked on as we speak and should be online by early next week.

Great suggestion on the Pre-Set!

Aaron

This is exactly what i am planning to do with mine till the isb stand is ready so i can push and go.. just curious.. why 380 minimum?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 08:11:53 pm
Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions.  No reason not to have that flexibility, right?

Hey alank2!

I made the suggestion for lower minimum temperature and Management loved it! Since we are in the process of tweaking the software, the decision has been made to change the low temperature limit to 350°F/177°C. It will be implemented within the next few weeks. The first generation units will flash firmware "1.1" when you turn on the power, while the updated firmware will flash "1.2". I'm shocked we made that decision so quickly, but it was a great suggestion! You get a free PACE mug and polo shirt  --- send your address info to acaplan (AT) paceworldwide (DOT) com and I'll ship them out!

Thanks again,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 28, 2018, 08:13:35 pm
Hi Aaron,

Did you ever get a detailed picture of the ISB stand?

Dean
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 28, 2018, 08:14:29 pm
Thank you Aaron; email incoming!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 28, 2018, 08:15:08 pm
Put in a request with those firmware guys to allow lower than 380 to whatever the sleep temp is in future firmware revisions.  No reason not to have that flexibility, right?

Hey alank2!

I made the suggestion for lower minimum temperature and Management loved it! Since we are in the process of tweaking the software, the decision has been made to change the low temperature limit to 350°F/177°C. It will be implemented within the next few weeks. The first generation units will flash firmware "1.1" when you turn on the power, while the updated firmware will flash "1.2". I'm shocked we made that decision so quickly, but it was a great suggestion! You get a free PACE mug and polo shirt  --- send your address info to acaplan (AT) paceworldwide (DOT) com and I'll ship them out!

Thanks again,

Aaron

So does that mean we have to send the unit in to have the flash updated? 

My Unit ships to me tomorrow and I should have it on the 2nd or 3rd of April.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 08:30:59 pm

So does that mean we have to send the unit in to have the flash updated? 

My Unit ships to me tomorrow and I should have it on the 2nd or 3rd of April.

I think so, but the Engineer involved left 1/2 hour ago so I won't know until tomorrow. It's possible it's just an EPROM that can be shipped out and snapped into a socket, but I'm not sure. I am located in PACE Engineering and Training Center in Elkridge Maryland, but the ADS200 factory is located in North Carolina, so all the firmware upgrade work is done there. I'll get back to you soon.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 28, 2018, 08:35:25 pm
Very nice to see PACE taking feedback seriously  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 08:41:55 pm
Very nice to see PACE taking feedback seriously  :-+

It usually not this easy, but the timing was absolutely perfect!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 28, 2018, 08:56:16 pm
Very nice to see PACE taking feedback seriously  :-+

It usually not this easy, but the timing was absolutely perfect!

That's awesome! Imagine if the government ran that smoothly?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 09:02:09 pm
Hi Aaron,

Did you ever get a detailed picture of the ISB stand?

Dean

Oh crap, I totally forgot! See the attached photo of the prototype. Sorry Dean.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 09:15:37 pm
Hi Aaron,

Did you ever get a detailed picture of the ISB stand?

Dean

Oh crap, I totally forgot! See the attached photo of the prototype. Sorry Dean.

Aaron

Dean,

Here is how the ISB Tool Stand plugs into the back of the ADS unit (see attached image). And here's how the ISB works: the handpiece pushes a micro-switch on the left side of the cubby/holster when it is put in the tool stand -> switch connects its output to system ground -> the microprocessor picks up the change of switch’s output then starts the ISB timing control.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 28, 2018, 09:45:51 pm
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the ISB stand pictures.

Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?

I will be receiving my unit next week and several of the tips I order will not be shipped until the end of April now I read about the firmware changes?
 
I would like to know what other changes are planned for the updated firmware and if it’s not field Flashable what’s the process going to be to get the first gen units updated?

I have a EEPROM programmer so if that’s an option I would like to get the bin file, so I can flash my own unit.

Once I get the unit I will have a look at the insides to see if flashing is possible.

Thanks,
Dean 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 09:53:07 pm
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the ISB stand pictures.

Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?

I will be receiving my unit next week and several of the tips I order will not be shipped until the end of April now I read about the firmware changes?
 
I would like to know what other changes are planned for the updated firmware and if it’s not field Flashable what’s the process going to be to get the first gen units updated?

I have a EEPROM programmer so if that’s an option I would like to get the bin file, so I can flash my own unit.

Once I get the unit I will have a look at the insides to see if flashing is possible.

Thanks,
Dean


Dean,

All good comments. We have scheduled a meeting involving the updated firmware for next week. While I can't answer all your questions right away, let me just say that we will make it right for you. If I have to, I'll send a brand new, upgraded unit out to you myself! I'll be back in touch.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 28, 2018, 10:09:52 pm
Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?

I didn't get that impression at all.  An idea was had and they said they could implement it.  win win.  Someone wouldn't even need a newer version of firmware unless they wanted that specific change.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 28, 2018, 10:29:35 pm
Now on to the firmware it gives me great concern when I read that you’re in the process of tweaking the software / firmware to me it’s starting to look like the unit has been rushed out to market?

I didn't get that impression at all.  An idea was had and they said they could implement it.  win win.  Someone wouldn't even need a newer version of firmware unless they wanted that specific change.

I dont think so either.  Although it may have cost them an ISB sale :P  If i can manually push a button and drop to the isb temp and then just push it again when i want normal that isnt so bad especially considering its ramp up timing be so short.

I'm just jelly i didnt post about it lol.. i falsely assumed it could be set that low with a program key and went on my way considering the baked in isb function

So.. mine is not suppose to ship from tequiement till... 4/20 ;p  I'd love a new eeprom chip as well if possible or a drop shipped unit with the new firmware?  That is unless that batch has it already done!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 28, 2018, 11:26:56 pm

So.. mine is not suppose to ship from tequiement till... 4/20 ;p  I'd love a new eeprom chip as well if possible or a drop shipped unit with the new firmware?  That is unless that batch has it already done!

About 200 demo units were produced and shipped to our Reps, Distributors and Sales Agents all over the world. And an additional 100 units were shipped to distributors for stock. I'm not exactly sure who received these, but if you are receiving this within the next week, you probably have the original firmware 1.1. Judging from the Apr 20th date Tequipment gave you, they must not have stock yet, so it's likely you are getting the newer version from Tequipment.

Note that I'm almost certain that it will be a simple EPROM chip that can be shipped to you, so if you receive the older firmware, it's not a problem. I'll confirm this tomorrow.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: eeval on March 29, 2018, 01:34:37 pm
Aaron - looks like tequipment has few in stock.  any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 29, 2018, 01:46:50 pm
any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?

There is no way - I had the idea yesterday - it is likely they haven't even changed the firmware yet.  Aaron said management agreed to the change yesterday.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 29, 2018, 02:11:04 pm
any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?

There is no way - I had the idea yesterday - it is likely they haven't even changed the firmware yet.  Aaron said management agreed to the change yesterday.

That and they are more or less taking pre orders.. I ordered mine a few days ago and its ship out date wont be till 4/20.  So.. as Aaron said.. most likely a 2nd batch that should hopefully have it.  If not, im sure they can easily do either a eeprom swap or a cross ship to swap the whole unit if need be and its something you really want.

I really like the idea of manual idling to just under the melt point so it solidifies and reduces the wearing on the plating which makes the tips last even longer..  that was why i was surprised to see 380 and wondered why and glad they are changing it.  It's not exactly a hobby level unit where you would have to explain that over and over on tech support if set lower so not much exposure or if someone did and abused the tip.. well pace gets to sell another tip :P
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 29, 2018, 02:17:16 pm
I see no urgent firmware requirement. Users would then over-use the front panel to select a pseudo-setback temp (leaving only 2 valid presets). Economy-minded minimalist's can drum-up an external set-back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/) without voiding a warranty, and operating an up-scale soldering station might imply our ability to create, right?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on March 29, 2018, 02:20:10 pm
Aaron - looks like tequipment has few in stock.  any ideas if these are latest firmware with lower temp?

They're definitely not the latest firmware (Version 1.2) at Tequipment. It will take at least until next week to update the code, then another week to get the EPROMs changed out. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 29, 2018, 02:57:38 pm
TEquipment has shipped one tip and the station - I should have it Tuesday to play with!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 29, 2018, 03:14:33 pm
I see no urgent firmware requirement. Users would then over-use the front panel to select a pseudo-setback temp (leaving only 2 valid presets). Economy-minded minimalist's can drum-up an external set-back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-set-back-controls/) without voiding a warranty, and operating an up-scale soldering station might imply our ability to create, right?

Potato patato.. only thing i can think of off hand that might be an issue metallurgicly would be if someone rapid cycled the transition states a lot but who in their right mind is going to do that?  As long as one of their initial set points didnt go under 380 that would avoid most folk off hand doing it unless someone went out of their way to drop under and going into program mode.

Other wise its a programmable preset.. leave the users to set what they want and use the tool as best for them :P

Edit: Actually I just had another idea that could even counter that.. the firmware is obviously update-able by them.. they could throw a rule in if someone drops down to that low preset, the cool down time doesnt start till the same time as the isb or what is safe to block rapid cycling

Edit 2: Another might be to do the rule but ramp down fast and then slow down/stop at the former 380.. , hold till a set timer is cleared then go down to 350... and really dont need the rules to work unless someone has already lowered it down once to 350 then went back up to say 650 for a quick joint and dropped back down again
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 29, 2018, 03:16:44 pm
It should be pretty easy to devise a mechanism for the setback function. The setback input only needs to be grounded to activate. 

If the barrel of the tip cartridge is at system ground then could possibly be as simple as a single conductor wire to the stand from the switch input, with a contact which touches the cartridge when it's in the stand.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 29, 2018, 03:35:32 pm
It should be pretty easy to devise a mechanism for the setback function. The setback input only needs to be grounded to activate. 

If the barrel of the tip cartridge is at system ground then could possibly be as simple as a single conductor wire to the stand from the switch input, with a contact which touches the cartridge when it's in the stand.

I've used IR sensors before to do this or a nice mechanical switch..  if you get a decent sensor its about as reliable as the mech

I'll most likely end up modding my standard stand with something.. if i do i havent decided if something basic or go for flair
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 29, 2018, 03:45:11 pm
It should be pretty easy to devise a mechanism for the setback function. The setback input only needs to be grounded to activate. 

If the barrel of the tip cartridge is at system ground then could possibly be as simple as a single conductor wire to the stand from the switch input, with a contact which touches the cartridge when it's in the stand.

I've used IR sensors before to do this or a nice mechanical switch..  if you get a decent sensor its about as reliable as the mech

I'll most likely end up modding my standard stand with something.. if i do i havent decided if something basic or go for flair

I was thinking an IR sensor complicates things. And you may not even need a switch.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on March 29, 2018, 07:27:23 pm
Talk about a hype train ;)

Been waiting for a high quality robust but affordable station for years.
So finally a decent option in the $200 bracket with real buttons plus a switch on the front!

I caved in, just ordered two stations with 12 of my favorite tips.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 29, 2018, 09:08:26 pm
Talk about a hype train ;)

Been waiting for a high quality robust but affordable station for years.
So finally a decent option in the $200 bracket with real buttons plus a switch on the front!

I caved in, just ordered two stations with 12 of my favorite tips.

Nice! What tips did you get?

These are all the ones i got for myself

Pace ADS200 8007-0578
ADS200 AccuDrive, 120 VAC with Standard Tool Stand

Pace 1321-0609-P1
KIT, Mounting Bracket

-----

Pace 1131-0051-P1
1/8" 30 Degree Chisel (3.18mm)

Pace 1131-0032-P1
MiniWave (3.05mm)

Pace 1131-0003-P1
1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30 Degree (0.40mm)

Pace 1130-0012-P1
1/32" 30 Degree Chisel (0.80mm)

Pace 1130-0016-P1
3/64" 30 Degree Bent Chisel (1.20mm)

Pace 1131-0001-P1
1/32" Conical Sharp Ext. (0.80mm)

Pace 1131-0010-P1
13/64" Chisel (5.15mm)

Pace 1131-0057-P1
5/16" Chisel (7.95mm)

Pace 1131-0037-P1
1/4" Knife Blade (6.35mm)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on March 29, 2018, 10:09:14 pm
I may go for the mounting bracket later but I've got something in mind when my rearrange my bench. I ordered the below tips. Few chisels, drag tips, pointy ones, brute force tips. One of the stations may be used for micro tweezers later.

P/N 1130-0012-P1 1/32" 30° Chisel (0.80mm)
P/N 1130-0013-P1 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm)
P/N 1130-0019-P1 1/16" 30° Chisel (1.59mm)

P/N 1130-0032-P1 MiniWave (3.05mm)
P/N 1130-0033-P1 Angled MiniWave (3.05mm)
P/N 1130-0035-P1 Angled MiniWave (2.11mm)

P/N 1130-0003-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30° (0.40mm)
P/N 1130-0050-P1 1/128" Conical, Special (0.20mm)

P/N 1130-0037-P1 1/4" Flat Blade (6.35mm)
P/N 1131-0010-P1 13/64" Chisel (5.15mm)
P/N 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm)
P/N 1131-0057-P1 5/16" Chisel (7.95mm)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 29, 2018, 10:25:47 pm
I might get a 2nd station if they bundle the tweezers with it later down the road.. almost did the angled miniwaves but figured i'd try out their regular miniwave first and give that a go
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on March 29, 2018, 10:40:49 pm
I might get a 2nd station if they bundle the tweezers with it later down the road.. almost did the angled miniwaves but figured i'd try out their regular miniwave first and give that a go

Yeah I could have picked up a few more, but it's not a huge deal to order a few extras later. I'm sure someone here eventually will buy the whole set and show it off like those massive Wiha sets. Wait a sec didn't Dave do that? ;D
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on March 30, 2018, 03:06:30 pm
I agree 100%, and we'll be adding tips in the near future. By the way, you should check out our "MiniWave" style tips, which are essentially Bevel tips that have a "well" built into them - they look like a spoon but transfer heat really well.
these might also be good for drag soldering, if the edges are sharp enough

Exactly right! These were designed for drag soldering, which we call "MiniWave" soldering, because it mimics miniature wave soldering. See our Process Guide page and click on "Play Video" for a 30 second demo at:

https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02 (https://www.paceworldwide.com/pacenter/process-guides/i-qfp-02)

The spoon portion of the tip holds more solder, allowing you to install more than one side at a time.

PACE to everyone else translation: Hoof tip. :)
Everyone except Ersa, which calls them PowerWell.  :palm:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on March 30, 2018, 07:18:16 pm
Well it doesn’t look like I will have my unit and several tips until 4/5/2018 it was shipped on 3/29/2018
 
I will update the group once I received it and put if through server repairs I have.

I Hope everyone has a Happy Easter!  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 30, 2018, 07:20:56 pm
Looking forward to reading the user reviews as people receive their units. Can always allocate a bigger budget for quality tools ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on March 31, 2018, 01:56:57 am
Looking forward to reading the user reviews as people receive their units. Can always allocate a bigger budget for quality tools ;)

They have sold a few on tequipment.net that plus the 6% EEVblog discount there if you can get it would be sweet, 17 stations left at the time of writing this and going low stock on certain tips.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on March 31, 2018, 03:13:30 am
I plan on getting a new station.  I'll wait for the new firmware. Also waiting to see what the price of the ISB stand will be. And I gotta figure out which tips I want. All these decisions.  :-//
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: 2N3055 on March 31, 2018, 11:30:09 am
@PACE-Worldwide

Aaron,

I have a question.. How would you compare new ADS200 to  existing WJS100 station??
They seem very similar to me...

Thanks!!

Best regards,
Sinisa

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: unmaker on March 31, 2018, 01:22:42 pm
Hello Aaron,

This most likely is too early to ask but I'm curious as to what extent AccuDrive technology will be applied to future Pace stations/handpieces? As already mentioned there will be AccuDrive versions of the ST-50, TD-100, and MT-100, but will there be AccuDrive versions of say the ST-100 and/or MBT 350?

Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:

https://streamable.com/97vzi

Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT: Issue resolved thanks to post #192
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 31, 2018, 02:16:37 pm
Hello Aaron,

This most likely is too early to ask but I'm curious as to what extent AccuDrive technology will be applied to future Pace stations/handpieces? As already mentioned there will be AccuDrive versions of the ST-50, TD-100, and MT-100, but will there be AccuDrive versions of say the ST-100 and/or MBT 350?

Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:

https://streamable.com/97vzi

Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Welcome to EEVblog. FWiW, that is the oddest 1st posting I've ever seen here on the forum..  :-//  Nice equipment but it looks like your seller lost the original knob or the inside insulator clip and didn't include that info on the ebay listing.. Why wouldn't you just take a picture and send it into support@paceworldwide.com?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on March 31, 2018, 04:09:45 pm
Looking forward to reading the user reviews as people receive their units. Can always allocate a bigger budget for quality tools ;)

They have sold a few on tequipment.net that plus the 6% EEVblog discount there if you can get it would be sweet, 17 stations left at the time of writing this and going low stock on certain tips.

you totally can ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on March 31, 2018, 04:58:40 pm
I got a very generous gift package from Pace today - thank you Aaron.  You guys are super!!  Really looking forward to getting the station from TEquipment on Tuesday.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: 2N3055 on March 31, 2018, 06:00:58 pm
Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

That knob has a cap. Pop the cap, there is a screw underneath it to tighten the mandrel to the pot..


Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: unmaker on April 01, 2018, 11:58:47 am
Hello Aaron,

This most likely is too early to ask but I'm curious as to what extent AccuDrive technology will be applied to future Pace stations/handpieces? As already mentioned there will be AccuDrive versions of the ST-50, TD-100, and MT-100, but will there be AccuDrive versions of say the ST-100 and/or MBT 350?

Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:

https://streamable.com/97vzi

Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Welcome to EEVblog. FWiW, that is the oddest 1st posting I've ever seen here on the forum..  :-//  Nice equipment but it looks like your seller lost the original knob or the inside insulator clip and didn't include that info on the ebay listing.. Why wouldn't you just take a picture and send it into support@paceworldwide.com?

Thank you for the welcome! I've been a lurker of these forums for several years actually and if it weren't for these forums I would most likely be stuck with one of those Chinese 4-in-1 soldering stations from Amazon :phew:. Initially I thought Aoyue was top of the line soldering equipment  :-DD but after plenty of google research I learned better with Pace being talked about in these forums  :-+. I got my MBT 350 for such a steal because it was being sold for "Parts/As Is" and it wouldn't even turn on. Turns out I just had to replace the fuse and it was good to go  ;D. My MBT 350 has treated me very well and the only time I ever have an issue with it is when the TD-100 becomes almost unbearably hot when I have to crank up the temperature while working on large ground planes. This makes the ADS200 so very appealing. As for contacting Pace support, I planned on doing that eventually but I wasn't in a hurry since I don't even have a Thermojet handpiece. I figured I'd just throw in my question here since a Pace representative was actively replying to posts.



Off topic but I've got an issue with my MBT-350. The black knob that adjusts the air flow for Thermojet handpieces is completely loose. Here is a video demonstrating the issue:

Nice demonstration. Can you manipulate it fine without the knob? That almost looks like a very thin shim would fix that. Have you tried a thin piece of tape on the shaft and sliding the knob gently back on?

I'll leave it up to Aaron if he has expert opinion.

I wasn't able to turn it without the knob although I tried only with my fingers. I'm sure there was a better alternative to that. I do however appreciate the suggestion!




Any idea how to fix this? I got this station for a steal on ebay and this was the only real flaw. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

That knob has a cap. Pop the cap, there is a screw underneath it to tighten the mandrel to the pot..


Regards,

Sinisa

Thank you very much Sinisa! I had no idea it was that simple. It now seems to turn exactly as it should   :-+. Now I just need to figure out how to come up with $400+ for a TJ-70 and some nozzles... :'(
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on April 01, 2018, 01:31:44 pm
Now I just need to figure out how to come up with $400+ for a TJ-70 and some nozzles... :'(

I used to own a TJ-70 over 20 years ago and it was a great tool for the time and then tried a TJ-85 a few years ago. Despite their design differences, I noticed the performance is practically the same, yet the TJ-85 is much cheaper. My business needs transitioned to repairing/reworking technology mostly made today, which quickly limited their uses (which is why I eventually sold them).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 01, 2018, 05:28:09 pm
Is the ADS200 manufactured in the US?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 01, 2018, 07:58:48 pm
I was hoping the Pace Tip Tool was included, that was great decision. I missed it initially while looking through the quick start manual. We can always swat flies with the Hot Grip pad in Australia so it's not a total waste to include it ;).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=407516;image)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: JTY on April 02, 2018, 03:17:38 am
Is the ADS200 manufactured in the US?

I assume it is, based on the "Made in USA" shown in their brochure, https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Pace_ADS200_-_Brochure.pdf
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 02, 2018, 03:26:34 am
Is the ADS200 manufactured in the US?

I assume it is, based on the "Made in USA" shown in their brochure, https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Pace_ADS200_-_Brochure.pdf

North Carolina, Aaron mentioned it a few times

Shock:  Yeah that was a nice include... just curious how big is the fly swatter?  :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 02, 2018, 11:05:13 am
Shock:  Yeah that was a nice include... just curious how big is the fly swatter?  :-DD

Well this is the comparison from the brochure so I would say medium to large flies no problem.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 02, 2018, 12:23:34 pm
If you do the Tony Robbins Fire Walk, you can probably change tips with your bare hands. >:D

Seriously, I have silicone pot holders but I found them to be too slick. So I still use a dish towel to remove hot pans from the oven.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 02, 2018, 01:36:36 pm
Shock:  Yeah that was a nice include... just curious how big is the fly swatter?  :-DD

Well this is the comparison from the brochure so I would say medium to large flies no problem.

OMG it really is a fly swatter! hahahahahha... yeah i'll keep that out for the mozzies in my backyard
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 02, 2018, 08:22:36 pm
Sorry for the delay in answering your questions the past few days. I was incommunicado for the entire weekend -- at the WiFi-less in-laws house for Easter with the slowest internet connection ever!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 02, 2018, 08:53:49 pm
Sorry for the delay in answering your questions the past few days. I was incommunicado for the entire weekend -- at the WiFi-less in-laws house for Easter with the slowest internet connection ever!

Your participation is greatly appreciated! Thank you.
I hope folks can contain their questions to the threads topic, and not derail it with things the Pace support staff could tackle separately.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 02, 2018, 10:06:15 pm
@PACE-Worldwide

Aaron,

I have a question.. How would you compare new ADS200 to existing WJS100 station??
They seem very similar to me...

Thanks!!

Best regards,
Sinisa

That's because they are very similar. The ADS200 is a similar high power station like the WJS 100, with 120 Watts of power, the same all-metal case and similar transformer but there are some definite improvements:

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on April 03, 2018, 12:34:47 am
Thanks for the info Aaron. If I may, I'd like to enquire on a couple of areas.

Tip Variety: We are using the identical high-mass optimized tip shapes/geometries as the WJS 100 tip cartridges, but we have added 20 of the thinner, more popular standard tips that were available for our previous, non-high-powered stations (ST 50, ST 70, ST 30). While they may look the same, they ADS Blue Series Tips are not compatible with previous IntelliHeat or SensaTemp controlled stations  :-[

I noticed there's also these series of tips for the "non-WJS" TD-100, which I've experienced as quite useful: https://paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-tips/td100-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips

I've never seen them for the WJS 100, which dare I say... influenced a decision I mentioned earlier in this thread. I personally hope some of these eventually transition to the ADS200.

It costs much less than the WJS 100! The ADS200 is only US$239/€ 225/£199 each vs WJS 100 US$360/€ 325/£265 each!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at the US portal, it appears the ADS 200 combo is also priced less than the current pricing of the ST 50 w/o ISB cubby, which is currently priced at US$314.13.

Thanks again for all of the great information and correspondence so far. For all of the current and upcoming features, I'll eventually add an ADS 200 or likewise future "AccuDrive" station to my equipment setup.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 03, 2018, 12:43:32 am
There should at least be tweezers sometime this summer and I agree with the other chip removal tips.. those are nice to have and hope they make the 2nd round of tip design/production.

Your not seeing things either with the price, they slashed the cost of the unit and the tips.. hell of a deal.  Throw in you got a dedicated mfg rep for this forum practically and your not going to beat that. 

Got 3 weeks to go on mine coming in x_x, hoping some of the other guys getting theirs this week can do some early reviews
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: unmaker on April 03, 2018, 05:03:35 am
Now I just need to figure out how to come up with $400+ for a TJ-70 and some nozzles... :'(

I used to own a TJ-70 over 20 years ago and it was a great tool for the time and then tried a TJ-85 a few years ago. Despite their design differences, I noticed the performance is practically the same, yet the TJ-85 is much cheaper. My business needs transitioned to repairing/reworking technology mostly made today, which quickly limited their uses (which is why I eventually sold them).

Thank you for sharing that! The TJ-85 is definitely cheaper and the nozzles are as well. It still seems a bit expensive because the foot pedal alone, which is required, is around $140. The most cost effective solution for myself would be to find one of the older Sensatemp ones on ebay, along with a Sensatemp to Intelliheat adapter, to see whether a thermojet handpiece will suit my needs or not. Performance wise, I don't think there will be too much of a difference compared to the Intelliheat thermojet handpieces. If that's not adequate, I'll go with the Quick 861DW.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 04, 2018, 12:48:35 pm
It arrived yesterday and being on a rush firmware project for someone, I didn't get to open until early this morning!  Compared to my WES51, this thing feels and weighs like a tank!  It is really impressive and feels solid.  The aluminum iron feels/looks great, but I won't have time to try it out until later.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 04, 2018, 02:56:14 pm
That's a nice VFD.. each time I see one I kick myself for flipping one off the bench a year ago..
(https://s31.postimg.org/d8p7hsmhn/JBC-_Envy.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 04, 2018, 03:00:45 pm
I'm a VFD junkie - I don't know what it is about those glowing characters!!!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 04, 2018, 03:20:48 pm
If there's TEA group, there should be help for other addictions.. it's not fair.  I still get sad dreams over this one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/trying-to-find-vdd-on-4-line-by-96-point-vft/).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 04, 2018, 03:31:02 pm
It arrived yesterday and being on a rush firmware project for someone, I didn't get to open until early this morning!  Compared to my WES51, this thing feels and weighs like a tank!  It is really impressive and feels solid.  The aluminum iron feels/looks great, but I won't have time to try it out until later.

It looks huge! Must be perspective distortion caused by the focal length of the camera lens.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on April 04, 2018, 03:43:57 pm
That's a nice VFD.. each time I see one I kick myself for flipping one off the bench a year ago..
(https://s31.postimg.org/d8p7hsmhn/JBC-_Envy.jpg)

That's quite funny!  :-DD

On a serious note, I'd never spend money on ANY piece of gear for the purpose of "envy." So much "expensive" gear I tried over many years only to find their features don't rationalize the ROI for my business. The JBC CD (which hilariously enough, the display is like a "CD Player") was a tough purchase but one that had the features I absolutely determined were necessary, and with the work I do, it's already paid for itself.

Now, the ADS200 is really showing how Pace is very serious about improvements over its previous cartridge based offerings and way more! If Pace can keep the momentum rolling, it will definitely be a major game changer! And yes, I'm planning on adding one to my gear very soon!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on April 04, 2018, 04:00:17 pm
By participating in this torum Pace has hit the right type of a crowd. Certainly is going to help them with sales.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 04, 2018, 05:17:50 pm
By participating in this torum Pace has hit the right type of a crowd. Certainly is going to help them with sales.

Definitely.. our guys at the shop want to see mine when it comes in already to try out side by side a hakko
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 04, 2018, 10:20:12 pm
By participating in this torum Pace has hit the right type of a crowd. Certainly is going to help them with sales.

Definitely.. our guys at the shop want to see mine when it comes in already to try out side by side a hakko

Start with this test first on the Hakko's case.

(http://i.imgur.com/CBod9SG.gif)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 04, 2018, 10:30:51 pm
My quick review so far is that it is working great for me.  I did a couple of really tiny SMD resnet's today to see how small I could go and had no problem getting them done.  I was looking at the Hakko FX951 and the add on FM2032 for "micro soldering" until I found this and decided to try it instead.  It works for microsoldering just fine for me with the small compact aluminum iron handle and the much cheaper precision tips.  I also made one of my typical 1206 part sized boards with a tqfp44 and a mini USB jack with its small leads with no problems.  The chisel trip I tried was really good at part placement where I heat the pad and place the part using the chisel as a stop for horizontal movement.  Made in the USA, less costly, USA support and no extra iron to buy=win win for me.  I'll try to do a more formal review later with some pics if I get a chance.  Initial impression is good and I am picky.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 05, 2018, 12:20:52 am
Stay picky - we want to hear from you! BTW, does the handle stay cool like they say? (important for me..)

I just watched the TS-100 review with Louis Rossmann live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).

*To get an idea of how quick people are settling for budget-bargain-basement iron's (with poor tips), it's worth a view.
https://bit.ly/2qb0fMs (https://bit.ly/2qb0fMs)

**His post review (some corrections). IMHO, TS-100 users suffer from gadget love ignoring a poor tip ecosystem and quality.
https://bit.ly/2GBjitH (https://bit.ly/2GBjitH)

*** Edit - Links changed to bit-ly (YT links distract Pace thread focus..)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 05, 2018, 12:25:49 am
I didn't notice it at all, so for sure it didn't get hot.  I'll take notice next time I use it.  My old WES51 gets hot after awhile.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 05, 2018, 04:02:51 am

I was just watching the TS-100 review with Louis Rossman live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).
 

I read somewhere that users think TS100 tips are better quality than T12 tips. But they also cost around $10. Priced as if the TS100 is top name in the  industry. IMO it's a bit of a novelty and convenient as a portable iron. But doesn't take the place of a good high quality bench station.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 05, 2018, 11:26:46 am

I was just watching the TS-100 review with Louis Rossman live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).
 

I read somewhere that users think TS100 tips are better quality than T12 tips. But they also cost around $10. Priced as if the TS100 is top name in the  industry. IMO it's a bit of a novelty and convenient as a portable iron. But doesn't take the place of a good high quality bench station.
Yup, likely the reason Dave doesn't take this FAD too seriously (it smells like :bullshit: with hundred cash-hungry copy-cat Asian mfg's selling much, but producing nothing of any quality).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VEGETA on April 05, 2018, 12:07:16 pm
I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.

That would be a nice video, but I suggest you do one for -100$ like the cheap (and reliable) Chinese stations. It could be 2 videos like the multimeter shootout (50$ and 100$).

Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 05, 2018, 01:35:59 pm
I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.

That would be a nice video, but I suggest you do one for -100$ like the cheap (and reliable) Chinese stations. It could be 2 videos like the multimeter shootout (50$ and 100$).

Looking forward to it.
Given that Dave has a finite amount of time, how can "reliable" be established in a shootout?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 05, 2018, 03:48:14 pm
Mike has the first video up. Looks like he has found 3 DOA tips (out of the 11 so far received).
Sort of expecting a bit of a postmortem or at least a measurement of the tips but perhaps he was saving it for another video :D

Aside from a problem with a few tips looks like it melts solder well! Excited!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42sa3wkQUIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42sa3wkQUIE)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 05, 2018, 03:55:12 pm
I've only tried 4 tips so far, but all of them seem to work fine and melt solder.  Looking forward to the video later when I get a chance to watch it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 05, 2018, 04:04:29 pm
I've only tried 4 tips so far, but all of them seem to work fine and melt solder.  Looking forward to the video later when I get a chance to watch it.

I just read Mike's comments below the video, Pace has contacted him already to do failure analysis on them. Could just be really unlucky at this stage.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 05, 2018, 04:13:01 pm
Quote from: Mike said on youtube
Pace contacted me bright and early in the morning. They are not only replacing the tips but a factory service rep is hand delivering them to me. They want the defective tips back to do failure analysis on them. As was expected from Pace the customer service is great. Not just great, who else would hand deliver replacements. He said the two that did not work were most likely from a very early batch that did have a problem which was corrected. The third one that quickly looses heat is going to get dissected to determine what happened to it.?

Ok so it's down to 1 out of 11, that deescalated quick.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on April 05, 2018, 04:21:58 pm
Is it me or the way tips are stored in the iron caddy pose a risk of injury?  You can seriuosly injure you hand/palm if not careful. Same is with JBC. I store tips tilted sidewise in the caddy tip container to minimize scratching or poking my hand accidentally.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 05, 2018, 04:25:48 pm
I've only tried 4 tips so far, but all of them seem to work fine and melt solder.  Looking forward to the video later when I get a chance to watch it.

I just read Mike's comments below the video, Pace has contacted him already to do failure analysis on them. Could just be really unlucky at this stage.

Hope so, mine is also from tequipment but 2 weeks out or so.  Guess i'll need to do a full examination and confirm the collection im getting is in good order.

Trial by fire, hopefully cross shipping any bad initial tips will go smoothly.  3 fails right out of the gate would suggest an early mfg problem that creeped in with at least the batch te got
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on April 05, 2018, 04:26:43 pm
Is it me or the way tips are stored in the iron caddy pose a risk of injury?  You can seriuosly injure you hand/palm if not careful. Same is with JBC. I store tips tilted sidewise in the caddy tip container to minimize scratching or poking my hand accidentally.

With the position of the station in Mikes video that could be possible, however... I place my stations and stands in positions that almost eliminates the possibilities of equipment damage or personal injury. Of course, something else I've seen done is where people use a separate tip cubby that mounts on top of the station.

Just my experience.  8)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 05, 2018, 04:27:29 pm
Quote from: Mike said on youtube
Pace contacted me bright and early in the morning. They are not only replacing the tips but a factory service rep is hand delivering them to me. They want the defective tips back to do failure analysis on them. As was expected from Pace the customer service is great. Not just great, who else would hand deliver replacements. He said the two that did not work were most likely from a very early batch that did have a problem which was corrected. The third one that quickly looses heat is going to get dissected to determine what happened to it.?

Ok so it's down to 1 out of 11, that deescalated quick.

Oh wow that's nice of them, i wonder if they are able to isolate them in TE's stock and pull em then.. might explain why i saw some date slippage earlier today on my shipment
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 05, 2018, 05:31:32 pm
Is it me or the way tips are stored in the iron caddy pose a risk of injury?  You can seriuosly injure you hand/palm if not careful. Same is with JBC. I store tips tilted sidewise in the caddy tip container to minimize scratching or poking my hand accidentally.

Little to no risk unless you put the stand (cubby) where you are reaching over constantly. They are easy to grab from the side. I think he brought his stand forward to fit in frame while filming.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 05, 2018, 05:47:06 pm
Re: video (about 12:04) it looks like the tip sensor gave incorrect feedback in getting the big tip to 800F in 3 seconds - did it seem too fast? The number Aaron gave was 5 I think (unless turning it on goes direct to setback temp while user changes keypad)  :-//
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 05, 2018, 06:01:32 pm
Not the best first impressions in Shock's video, but I can look past that. I'm certain any faulty tips would be replaced swiftly!

The bigger problem is getting tips that are faulty without you knowing, i..e perform sub-par, giving you a wrong impression of what the tool is capable of.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VEGETA on April 05, 2018, 06:57:46 pm
I'm planning a US$150 station shootout, sadly this one at US$250 is a tad outside that.

That would be a nice video, but I suggest you do one for -100$ like the cheap (and reliable) Chinese stations. It could be 2 videos like the multimeter shootout (50$ and 100$).

Looking forward to it.
Given that Dave has a finite amount of time, how can "reliable" be established in a shootout?

I meant that today we have reliable Chinese cheap soldering stations instead of unreliable stuff like those which plugs straight to mains or usb iron or... etc.

What he should do is gather famous ones that are less than 50$ and do a shootout for them.

That is my suggestion... he can take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 05, 2018, 07:04:38 pm
Re: video (about 12:04) it looks like the tip sensor gave incorrect feedback in getting the big tip to 800F in 3 seconds - did it seem too fast? The number Aaron gave was 5 I think (unless turning it on goes direct to setback temp while user changes keypad)  :-//

700F is 5s according to Mike in the APEX video. Aaron said all tips 5-10s (so far I guess).
Yeah it wasn't heated up but had plenty of time before he soldered. Looks like it was a slow warmer probably a element problem because the thermal-couple I think would feedback to the station.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 05, 2018, 09:34:57 pm
Stay picky - we want to hear from you! BTW, does the handle stay cool like they say? (important for me..)

I was just watching the TS-100 review with Louis Rossman live, and he liked it for the money. When he finds the tips stay black and corroded after 1 week, he'll start to think seriously about about what Pace thinks about tip cladding QC. Buy crap, get the same. I can't hardly wait until my Pace arrives... I like Christmas (but this will be better, I can burn my ancient Weller).

*To get an idea of how quick people are settling for budget-bargain-basement products, it's worth a view.
]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao39bPEyok4] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao39bPEyok4)

**His post review (some corrections). IMHO, TS-100 users suffer from gadget love ignoring a poor tip ecosystem and quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71R8OksmpWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71R8OksmpWw)

Thanks for the links, according to Louis Rossman, final opinion: “Highly recommended”. Hmm...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 05, 2018, 10:27:35 pm
Mike has the first video up. Looks like he has found 3 DOA tips (out of the 11 so far received).
Sort of expecting a bit of a postmortem or at least a measurement of the tips but perhaps he was saving it for another video :D

Aside from a problem with a few tips looks like it melts solder well! Excited!


Unfortunately, they seem to be having an issue with tips. I still plan on getting a Pace Station when they get the bugs worked out. I was waiting for the new firmware anyway. As some have pointed out, they deal with the industry and are committed to getting it right.  They aren't some Bangood seller.  I get a kick out of the commenters with doomsday scenarios. That's the internet for you.

I'm glad they can still compete globally and offer a product that's a workhorse. That's what USA is about. It's a shame that more American companies aren't still doing it.   
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on April 05, 2018, 10:37:33 pm
I just got an email saying the tips are a bit delayed and therefore I won't see my iron until the 18th.

Oh well.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 05, 2018, 10:46:42 pm

Thanks for the links, according to Louis Rossman, final opinion: “Highly recommended”. Hmm...

Do you think Louis Rossman is throwing out his Hakko stations?  Does he know about the quality and lifespan of the tip cartridges after playing with it for half an hour? This may be okay for a hobbyist to use. But I do service work and I gotta have tools and equipment that I know are gonna work every time I turn them on. I'd use an FX-888D before I used a TS100 every day because they're reliable. 

I sometimes work for a guy who uses cheap tools and $12 soldering irons. He loves to substitute cheap parts and he's always doing recalls. No thanks.   
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 05, 2018, 10:51:12 pm

Thanks for the links, according to Louis Rossman, final opinion: “Highly recommended”. Hmm...

Do you think Louis Rossman is throwing out his Hakko stations?  Does he know about the quality and lifespan of the tip cartridges after playing with it for half an hour? This may be okay for a hobbyist to use. But I do service work and I gotta have tools and equipment that I know are gonna work every time I turn them on. I'd use an FX-888D before I used a TS100 every day because they're reliable. 

I sometimes work for a guy who uses cheap tools and $12 soldering irons. He loves to substitute cheap parts and he's always doing recalls. No thanks.

Do you own a TS100?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 05, 2018, 11:22:03 pm

Do you own a TS100?

Do you?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 05, 2018, 11:27:47 pm

Do you own a TS100?

Do you?

Answering a question with a question?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: blueskull on April 05, 2018, 11:58:55 pm
What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 06, 2018, 12:16:46 am
I just got an email saying the tips are a bit delayed and therefore I won't see my iron until the 18th.

Yeah to be expected anyway, it's literally only been out a week.
What tips did you go for?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 12:40:33 am
I received my new system today and the first two tips I tried have the same CHP error.

The problem for me is the tips are not seating all the way in the handle! i just stop by to check the thread and seen your problems.

Now I will need to test all 17 of the tips I purchased.

I did find that if I pulled the tip out and reinserted it pushed a little harder on the tip it would seat but made a funny sound once it seated.

Going to check my other tips now. :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 06, 2018, 12:57:30 am
What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?
Sorry, it's my fault for posting that :palm:  I'm concerned for budget novices now treating "our most crucial tool in electronics" like a disposable gadget. Meanwhile, pro's (like Louis R.) are saying almost nothing about tip ecosystem quality vs. bench/shop productivity.
Please predict where this will lead: With T-12 tips coming to market from hole-in-the-wall sources everywhere, who guarantee's them? Who stands to loose if quality slips? Who measures plating thickness or does thermal cycling to certify quality?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 06, 2018, 01:05:34 am
I did find that if I pulled the tip out and reinserted it pushed a little harder on the tip it would seat but made a funny sound once it seated.

Don't force it in too hard they don't require that much effort. Are you saying that you have some tips running now though?

What tips did you end up getting? It might help others by listing the tips you think have problems if it's only happening to a few, if happening on all tips more likely a problem with the handle.

Keep in mind they have shipped a few hundred units of the first run in total so you are going to see a few problems here and there, it's a brand spanking new product.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 01:11:18 am
I did find that if I pulled the tip out and reinserted it pushed a little harder on the tip it would seat but made a funny sound once it seated.

Don't force it in too hard they don't require that much effort. Are you saying that you have some tips running now though?

What tips did you end up getting? It might help others by listing the tips you think have problems if it's only happening to a few, if happening on all tips more likely a problem with the handle.

Keep in mind they have shipped a few hundred units of the first run in total so you are going to see a few problems here and there, it's a brand spanking new product.

Yes I have some tips working I think I have found part of the problems give me a few I am taking some pictures and will post in a few.

All my tips seem hard to insert and I might have figured that out also.

I am not worried at all Pace will make this right I was so happy to have a Pace back on my bench I have a JBC but needed another system and just did not want to spend the money on another JBC. :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 06, 2018, 01:20:59 am
Yes I have some tips working I think I have found part of the problems give me a few I am taking some pictures and will post in a few.

All my tips seem hard to insert and I might have figured that out also.

I am not worried at all Pace will make this right I was so happy to have a Pace back on my bench I have a JBC but needed another system and just did not want to spend the money on another JBC.

Cool and please post the part numbers, if you think it there might be an electronic problem with the tip can you also do a resistance measurement and then compare it to a similar working (but cold) tip?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 01:29:15 am
Can you look down into the handle and see if you see a rubber grommet. It seems to move around in my handle like it fell out of a slot or is torn.

I think that is what is cause some of the problems with my unit have a look at this picture it's the best I could get.

(https://s26.postimg.org/uiisod85h/2018-04-05_21.06.51_Crop.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/uiisod85h/)

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 06, 2018, 01:45:35 am
What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?
Sorry, it's my fault for posting that :palm:  I'm concerned for budget novices now treating "our most crucial tool in electronics" like a disposable gadget. Meanwhile, pro's (like Louis R.) are saying almost nothing about tip ecosystem quality vs. bench/shop productivity.
Please predict where this will lead: With T-12 tips coming to market from hole-in-the-wall sources everywhere, who guarantee's them? Who stands to loose if quality slips? Who measures plating thickness or does thermal cycling to certify quality?

Cliff, I love ya, but must agree with you. You are an old FART. I can say that, since I’m one as well. But I think regarding this topic, I’m a bit more open minded.

To “labjr”, if you searched my posts, you probably already knew I indeed recently purchased a TS100.

What I’ll say to you both, reflecting my own personal opinions of course, and anyone else is: 

It seems hard if not impossible to form a definitive opinion on a product that one does not either own or have personally used. A very few, members here have voiced such opinions recently, for whatever reason. I believe in this case it is a disservice to the many newbie solder users like myself. Not everyone can afford what someone can, or have the same requirements for soldering projects.

Speaking for myself only, a hobbyist at best, I don’t need a professional soldering station with its potential advantages. And while I can afford a Hakko 951, or a Pace ADS200, both seemingly good deals, I don’t NEED one. So for me to get into the new world of direct drive temp sensing tips, having a much lower cost alternative to a full up bench soldering station is a good thing. And for the many that like me, don’t need or require a more expensive station having a lower cost version of a direct drive tip system, or specifically simply don’t have the MONEY for such, having a low cost alternative is yet another good thing. As well as another feature that must be mentioned, is the battery operated ability this unit has over a bench unit. Not something I have currently have much use for, but certainly a huge plus for many.

Sure, like many I base a good part of my buying decisions on articles and reviews. Oddly enough, I have yet to read or watch a bad review of the inexpensive TS100 soldering iron. Can’t recall anyone saying the available tips are not good, or get brown etc., some have reported long life, and equally as good as Hakko T-12 tips. In fact the only negative things I’ve read are from posters that never owned or used one. Not surprising, this gets into fanboy territory.

As far as folks practically begging our Dave Jones to review a TS100, he made a very logical response in one thread; “why, so I can confirm your purchase?” And he is SPOT ON, we all like to believe our hard earned money went for the best product we could afford at the time. I don’t need to see anymore reviews, just remember the TS100 has been on the market for over 1.5 years, there are plenty of reviews, as well as opinions. I’ve watched and read most of them, and was surprised if not shocked, not on the positive reviews, but by the experience and knowledge of some of those reviewers. Most of them with tons more solder expertise then I will ever have, and maybe you?

I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station. As a fairly good product researcher, I’ll say this, while this product has been out for a decent amount of time, I would hope to assume a Hakko 951, Pace ADS200, would last and perform for a longer period, based on previous product longevity and initial cost. But since these are NEW products we can’t say for sure, though a good bet perhaps, we can only assume. And from reports of actual long term owners, the smaller tips designed and sold for this are a non issue, as good as Hakko T12 tips. Those are real world users, some with as much or more experience then some here. And some of those owners, have in fact favored a TS100 over their previous bench stations, many of those costing much, much more. You can argue all of the above, longevity, egonomics, tip selection, customer support, etc. But for someone on a low budget, you can’t argue the price point. What you get for your money, is something every individual will have to decide for themselves, and should not be effected by those with no first hand knowledge.

Let me also state, I’m not now or ever have been a “fan boy” of any consumer product, or brands. That’s simply a road to disappointment! If like many here, I had to solder professionally, or solder a lot, I would probably buy the Pace ADS200, as I dislike the Hakko temp adjust interface. Why buy those? Well, the two units mentioned should, by company history, last longer, hopefully be more robust with all day use, more tip selections and hopefully have better customer support. If you have the budget, these both seem like solid performers. Are there downsides to a TS100, well if you need to save money, you KNOW the answer to that. Life, like consumer electronics is full of compromises. Nothing I found hard to overcome, but how much or how little you want to be involved in the products you choose based on your own criteria, is up to the individual. Depending on the package you order, all of the mentioned products here can be used out of the box. Besides additional tips, you may need to buy some additional inexpensive products to get better performance from a TS100, like a $25 24 volt  power supply, if you don’t already have an old compatible laptop supply. The Hakko 951 comes with the tip temp sleep stand I believe, the similar Pace iron stand is extra. I bought a separate stand from Hakko, for approximately $20. I’d rather not put my TS100 on the table! So the discussion should end up being about the ability of the tool to do the job for the required price point.

Flip side, one could afford 3-4 TS100’s over these two dedicated bench stations.

But with that said, so far I don’t see any proven reasons to dissuade those on a shoe string budget not to get into the newest technology direct drive tip sensing irons, like a TS100. I don’t see the need to bash other viable devices, especially ones people have no first hand experience with, just as Dave said, to “verify” their own purchases. That’s a kids game. Try and be happy with whatever you decide to buy, remembering the next model TS200, and ADS300, will somehow be BETTER.

Now please, so we can all stay GROUNDED, I love to hear from the real “ole timers”, that built and soldered for many years, with those old branding irons, it serves to remind me, just how good we have it now a days!



Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 06, 2018, 01:48:19 am
Can you look down into the handle and see if you see a rubber grommet. It seems to move around in my handle like it fell out of a slot or is torn.

I looked inside mine, but I don't see the rubber grommet at all.  Maybe I can't see it, but I just see the contacts at the bottom.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 06, 2018, 01:57:42 am
What has TS100 to do with this PACE station? Those are completely different market sections. There are people buying JBC, and there are people buying clone 936, and there are people buying something in between, ranging from TS100, FX888/WES51 to this entry level PACE, then maybe Metcal. Just keep your own dick in your own vice and who cares if the others buy anything else?

You are 100% right and I apologize for getting into a stupid debate. I wrote earlier on trying to keep the thread on topic, and not about old unit “knobs” etc. Sorry, I’m just following this thread as this Pace unit is very interesting as it competes price wise with the Hakko. For now, I will have to make do with my toy TS100. Sorry for off thread topic posts.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 06, 2018, 02:12:18 am
And while I can afford a Hakko 951, or a Pace ADS200, both seemingly good deals, I don’t NEED one.

Good, Cliff was only pointing out it's refreshing to see an affordable professional station at $206 shipped (which is a big drop in price) and not more made for China type products (which are going up in price). Since this station is 120W it's not really comparable to anything else around at the same price or cheaper, so it wouldn't make sense to compare the products.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 06, 2018, 02:18:12 am
MacMeter - Thanks.. (nice thoughtful writing too).

blueskull - sorry, to kill this distraction I changed the links to the Rossmann review.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: blueskull on April 06, 2018, 02:26:56 am
Good, Cliff was only pointing out it's refreshing to see an affordable professional station at $206 shipped

This is truly impressive. The closest comparable Chinese unit with decent building quality from a known brand is Quick 3205, and that's a $270 unit, besides the Quick 3205 is NOT a cartridge unit, so it still suffers from heater to tip thermal resistance.

I don't know how Pace managed to get the price of a 120W cartridge style soldering station to $206 while still get it made in US, but whatever they did, it was brilliant.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: joeqsmith on April 06, 2018, 02:48:35 am
The only problem I have had was one time the password and other settings became corrupt.   There was no information about how to clear it on their site.  No 24 hour hot line.  So a bit of reverse engineering required to solve it.   IMO, this is a design flaw and not to have a documented way to recover it is a fail.    It has never happened since and that iron sees a lot of use.   
 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698)

My iron is all original, including the tips.   If I buy a brand new one, is it going to be as reliable?

Looks like the PACE rep decided not to answer my question about reliability.   

I've been using the Intelliheat series and really like the Minitweeze.  If I get a new station, it's going to have these. 

I am curious, do the new PACE irons still requires the elements to be burned in before use?   There used to be a heat cycle you had to follow before using them or their life was shortened.   My old ST45 can automatically perform the burn-in cycle so there is no need to manually run it. 

Also, I ran a little test using Dave's rebranded BM235 to measure the tip temperature of this old iron for MacMeter.  I would assume under no load the new PACE is at least as stable and my old one.   
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-bm235/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-bm235/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 02:52:00 am
Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.

So, I pulled the tip again and reinserted it and this time it did push all the way in but was tight. The tip worked just fine after that time.

The second tip that would give me the CHP error did the same thing once I got the tip to seat all the way it works fine.

There must be something wrong with my handle because it’s just too damn hard to insert the tips….

I have a feeling what looks like a grommet in the handle in not in the right location or has been pulled loose.

I will be call Pace in the morning. |O

Look at these pictures one is of a tip that worked right the first time and the others are of the tip that did not work right the first time.

(https://s26.postimg.org/x3odc6v1x/2018-04-05_20.57.54_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/x3odc6v1x/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/5hllr5og5/2018-04-05_22.20.35_Crop_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5hllr5og5/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/n6dcj5q11/2018-04-05_20.58.46_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/n6dcj5q11/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 06, 2018, 03:24:03 am
And while I can afford a Hakko 951, or a Pace ADS200, both seemingly good deals, I don’t NEED one.

Good, Cliff was only pointing out it's refreshing to see an affordable professional station at $206 shipped (which is a big drop in price) and not more made for China type products (which are going up in price). Since this station is 120W it's not really comparable to anything else around at the same price or cheaper, so it wouldn't make sense to compare the products.

Indeed, they are two different products. And while some like me, may find an inexpensive TS100 totally capable of doing the occasional job I may require, it’s use for full time work can be debated, not my interest.

And as far as what Rossman uses for his repair business, I doubt a TS100 will be replacing his Hakko 951 anytime soon. But his review and follow up shows what new technology can even offer a newbie on a budget. Fortunately for me I can afford any station you can think of, but I’m not into wasting money on something I don’t need to use on a daily basis. I like that a USA manufacturer can compete with a long time player like Hakko, who seemingly does NOT listen to their customers at all. There is NO excuse for a 1980’s interface on an 888 that’s called “D” for digital. I hope Pace’s new offering embarrasses Hakko, and causes them market share. Yes, at work I use the Hakko 888D, let’s say the cost is about equal, I prefer my home TS100, over it.

And as Rossman learned from his online viewers, with a handle adapter, one can use original Hakko T12 tips. While folks can argue handle ergonomics, it’s nice to see a new device that does not require a proprietary, more expensive tips to function or add improvements. Which brings me to my last point (maybe:) I’m one of the first to jump on the lack of Chinese product quality control. My biggest complaint is the use of FAKE battery capacity ratings, but maybe more importantly their unapologetic use of FAKE safety stickers and logos. Hence the reason I avoid fakes and clones, and am able to afford to pay more for original products.

So my last point is, while many Chinese products are rip offs of good designs, clones, copies, fakes, whatever, there are a very, very few, Chinese products that are in fact new designs, using the latest technologies. Sure hard to find, hard to sift through the internet haze, but I don’t think it’s intelligent to always dismiss all Chinese products as dangerous junk. Until MINODSO offered the TS100, no one else has marketed an inexpensive product quite like this, certainly not in the portable soldering iron market, they own that now. Granted, they do themselves a great disservice with allowing all the rebranding crap, but I’ve been monitoring the Chinese electronics market for the past few years, and these folks would clone their own brand toilet paper if the could, and since they can, they probably do! The Chinese do have some good machinists and equipment to produce quality products, but overall they are lacking in innovation, and the desire perhaps due to money, to get away from cloning.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 06, 2018, 04:06:46 am
I don't know how Pace managed to get the price of a 120W cartridge style soldering station to $206 while still get it made in US, but whatever they did, it was brilliant.

That is with the EEVblog 6% off by the way (and tequipments free shipping). But even at $220 it's a no brainer.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 06, 2018, 04:10:41 am
Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.

So, I pulled the tip again and reinserted it and this time it did push all the way in but was tight. The tip worked just fine after that time.

Can you tell us the part number of the tip that was a bit wonky, just in case we need to keep an eye out for tip issues? Thanks for the photos now we know what to look for.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 04:12:03 am
Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.

So, I pulled the tip again and reinserted it and this time it did push all the way in but was tight. The tip worked just fine after that time.

Can you tell us the part number of the tip that was a bit wonky, just in case we need to keep an eye out for tip issues? Thanks for the photos now we know what to look for.

I have a few I will post in a few have some more pictures of the handle problem coming in a min.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on April 06, 2018, 04:12:56 am
I hope Pace’s new offering embarrasses Hakko, and causes them market share.

The Hakko is half the price. At least in the US.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on April 06, 2018, 04:20:08 am
I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station.

It doesn't.
And anyone with professional soldering experience can attest to that without even having owned one. It's obvious.
It may have the performance of a more expensive iron, but in term of usability compared to a professional bench iron, it's chalk and cheese.
The bloody things doesn't even come with a power supply, a proper cable, or a stand. Now sure, you might be able to cobble together a half decent setup yourself with it, but to compare that DIY solution to a proper bench station solution that is professionally engineered out of the box is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 04:32:56 am
Ok so the problem with my unit is for sure the handle and could have been caused by the quality control problem on the tips not being fully assembled.

Pace will need to address the tip assembly problems. :--

So, I took my hand piece apart to see what the problem was and in fact the rubber grommet had been pulled out it’s just a friction fit in the handle and I think poor design.  :--

Look at the pictures and you will see that there is a cone /cup in the plastic that the grommet fits in and then when the handle is assembled with the black plastic nut on the rear of handle it wedges the grommet down to the aluminum body of the handle.

In my case it looks like when I first inserted the first tip it had pushed the grommet out of the cone / cup in the plastic. From the looks of the grommet it looks like it started to roll on to itself getting in the way of the tips seating all the way down. So, when I pulled the tip back out it rolled back the grommet into the cone / cup and on the second try the tip body slide by and seated right.

The grommet acts as a friction ring to hold the tip body.

If the back nut loosens up it will allow the grommet to move around in the handle not sure if this is the same design as the TD100 handles but I don’t like the design.  |O

I would think that it should have had a little high temp silicone grease applied to the grommet so it’s not a dry fit seems like a lot of drag on the grommet when inserting the tips.

I will be calling Aaron in the morning to get some new grommets to replace the one in my handle that is now nicked up. :wtf:

Also, I am not sure what the metal tail is sticking out of the connector but it doesn’t look right to me? Let me know what you think it’s in the last two pictures.

(https://s26.postimg.org/6ro0k051x/2018-04-05_23.24.48.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ro0k051x/)(https://s26.postimg.org/4n3nitvol/2018-04-05_23.20.02.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4n3nitvol/)(https://s26.postimg.org/6ro0jza6t/2018-04-05_23.18.46.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ro0jza6t/)(https://s26.postimg.org/yf0py3at1/2018-04-05_23.21.59.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yf0py3at1/)(https://s26.postimg.org/4zv1p1vyt/2018-04-05_23.21.35.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4zv1p1vyt/)(https://s26.postimg.org/9yik3jx6t/2018-04-05_23.12.58.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9yik3jx6t/)(https://s26.postimg.org/v866eesx1/2018-04-05_23.13.00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/v866eesx1/)(https://s26.postimg.org/6ewmdrpc5/2018-04-05_23.15.53.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ewmdrpc5/)(https://s26.postimg.org/6ro0jyur9/2018-04-05_23.16.49.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6ro0jyur9/)(https://s26.postimg.org/4zv1p2j45/2018-04-05_23.16.54.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4zv1p2j45/) 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 06, 2018, 04:47:10 am
Is the part of the connector sticking out, possibly a contact to ground the aluminum handle?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 06, 2018, 04:56:05 am
I hope Pace’s new offering embarrasses Hakko, and causes them market share.

The Hakko is half the price. At least in the US.

I’m comparing the HAKKO 951 to the new Pace 200, since they both use the new style tips. The Hakko 888D, would be around half at approximately $95.00 US with the older style tip technology. Since the Pace seems aimed at the same market price point as the Hakko 951, if I were choosing between the two, I would buy the Pace, if only for the interface differences I mentioned. I’ve never used any Pace gear, but do use an 888D.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: blueskull on April 06, 2018, 04:57:59 am
The Hakko is half the price. At least in the US.

And half the power and far less selection of premium tips (spoon, ultra fine, etc.).
With Hakko, you don't get good stuff with T18.

When it comes to T12, genuine Hakko branded irons are no longer cheap.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 04:58:16 am
Here are some pictures of the inside of the unit should be no problem replacing the firmware once the new one is available.
(https://s26.postimg.org/z8dbr5bth/2018-04-05_17.14.11.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/z8dbr5bth/)(https://s26.postimg.org/w1is7ijnp/2018-04-05_17.11.22.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/w1is7ijnp/)(https://s26.postimg.org/5gg9by9kl/2018-04-05_17.14.25.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5gg9by9kl/)(https://s26.postimg.org/nw0q9bded/2018-04-05_17.14.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nw0q9bded/)(https://s26.postimg.org/rse25aqo5/2018-04-05_17.14.49.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/rse25aqo5/)(https://s26.postimg.org/wea6dn4hh/2018-04-05_17.14.56.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/wea6dn4hh/)(https://s26.postimg.org/3onagz5md/2018-04-05_17.15.26.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3onagz5md/)(https://s26.postimg.org/mgz5kkhg5/2018-04-05_17.15.35.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/mgz5kkhg5/)(https://s26.postimg.org/8okqog5yt/2018-04-05_17.16.33.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8okqog5yt/) (https://s26.postimg.org/kdoqcf4n9/2018-04-05_17.16.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/kdoqcf4n9/)(https://s26.postimg.org/xulovbhjp/2018-04-05_17.17.03.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xulovbhjp/)


Also a few pictures of the stand it looks like once the parts are available you should be able to purchase just the switch assemble and make up your own cabling.

(https://s26.postimg.org/7c31n3b9h/2018-04-05_17.25.38.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7c31n3b9h/)(https://s26.postimg.org/wi3ztxk9h/2018-04-05_17.25.46.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/wi3ztxk9h/)(https://s26.postimg.org/57iom01x1/2018-04-05_17.26.10.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/57iom01x1/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 05:08:31 am
Is the part of the connector sticking out, possibly a contact to ground the aluminum handle?

Have a look at this picture

(https://s26.postimg.org/3jol4ewx1/2018-04-05_23.16.54_Notes.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3jol4ewx1/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 06, 2018, 05:26:32 am
I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station.

It doesn't.
And anyone with professional soldering experience can attest to that without even having owned one. It's obvious.
It may have the performance of a more expensive iron, but in term of usability compared to a professional bench iron, it's chalk and cheese.
The bloody things doesn't even come with a power supply, a proper cable, or a stand. Now sure, you might be able to cobble together a half decent setup yourself with it, but to compare that DIY solution to a proper bench station solution that is professionally engineered out of the box is ridiculous.

I believe I covered a few of the differences you mention concerning usability, long term reliability, tip selection, customer support, etc., so I won’t repeat them. Oh wait, I just did. As far as “cobbling”, yeah, that took me an hour, if I had a 24 volt laptop supply here, I could have skipped power supply research time, or if I were happy with just the included 19 volt supply. Bought a Hakko stand, I’m sure most users here have more then one, but if you were just getting started, you would most likely want to add that, 5 minutes devoted to that. Biggest deal is probably not wanting to use a power supply cable with the 2.5mm plug as your iron cord. Now most of the users here could make their own silicone iron lead with their eyes closed, and may have some silicone cable from an old test lead laying around, and a 2.5mm barrel connector. Since my TS100 kit came with a nice soft short silicone XT60 to 2.5mm cord (designed for direct connection to a portable battery pack), I simply bought a short adapter cable, solved that issue with a click of the mouse. Honestly I spent much more time trying to find fuses for my EEVBLOG BM235 meter when it was first released. No longer an issue, since you now sell them on your site.

I never took on the subject of comparing this iron versus that iron, home hobby use or dedicated bench station. However, depending on the end users need, I don’t believe it’s “ridiculous” to compare them at all. And from all the online noise generated by these tools, I’m obviously not alone. I think there is a place for both these tools.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 06, 2018, 08:28:56 am
Ok last post for the evening need to get some sleep.

So, I was repairing a HDMI board this evening with the new station and using some solder wick and the iron just stopped working it was like it went into standby the display started to flash 350 and then I think it dropped to 345 and just keep flashing I tried to adjust the temp up and nothing. :--

I had to power the unit off and then back on to get it working. :--

This thing was not ready to be released yet there are still things that need to be sorted out maybe a firmware will fix the issue I had but I am kind of bummed out. :palm:

I know Pace will get this all figured out, but I had expected better from Pace. :-BROKE

I was able to get the HDMI board repaired and when the iron works it works well with the big tips it’s close to the JBC I have.

I like the length of the handle the cord is a little bigger than the JBC. Oh and the Pace handle stays cooler than the JBC it the work I was using it for this evening.

(https://s26.postimg.org/8y15h4679/2018-04-05_17.30.04.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8y15h4679/)(https://s26.postimg.org/xraphsk2t/2018-04-05_17.30.11.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xraphsk2t/)(https://s26.postimg.org/s34eqvsl1/2018-04-05_17.30.39.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/s34eqvsl1/)(https://s26.postimg.org/xejbbgwmd/2018-04-05_17.28.29.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xejbbgwmd/)

Once Pace gets this all figured out it will be a better buy than the JBC.

You can get the Pace Station and a ton of tips over just get a couple tips with the JBC.

Night
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 06, 2018, 10:46:01 am
The last pic is good.. The JBC's flying cable holder and ridiculously large handle strain relief is sure to win some awards for tipsy, bench space monster. IMHO, tech stylist's went over-the-top. Pace also wins in fingers-to-tip distance (but anyone's MMV  :-+ )

** Edit (after driving my wife in the #$*# snow.. it's back in April no less! >:( )
   I thought about that handle a bit more from those nice pics... Thanks! (not photo-shopped, just a move)
(https://s31.postimg.org/c6plcnmwr/Pace-_JBC-handles-_SBS.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 06, 2018, 12:27:12 pm
Thanks for the lovely breakdown dolivas27!  I'm sure that will come in handy for the rest of us.. wasnt exactly planning on it to that degree since its pace but i'll be inspecting mine as well when it comes in.

Unseated tips with that groove + that rubber o ring.. not a good thing.. i agree that most likely fouled it up since the space gives the tip two edges to apply against the ring and pull/rip it right out

Question: did the unseated tip once it had connector pushed down on it all the way, did it stay or was it a weak connection where further insertion cycles will just cause it to come out again and cause the same issue?

I wonder with tip cycling in and out if that joint on the tip weakens to where it will then start wearing that o ring out till it jams up.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 06, 2018, 12:47:13 pm
I believe it just pisses people off, that an inexpensive Chinese product can approach the usability of a more expensive dedicated solder station.

It doesn't.
And anyone with professional soldering experience can attest to that without even having owned one. It's obvious.
It may have the performance of a more expensive iron, but in term of usability compared to a professional bench iron, it's chalk and cheese.
The bloody things doesn't even come with a power supply, a proper cable, or a stand. Now sure, you might be able to cobble together a half decent setup yourself with it, but to compare that DIY solution to a proper bench station solution that is professionally engineered out of the box is ridiculous.

lol... i watched part of rossmann's video and was going wtf when i saw him putting that thing into a bench psu..  i saw that thing on banggood a few times as well and just gave it a gander and then immediately laughed it off

why even fuck with all that when you can get a basic wes51 used for less than 50 bucks and they are built like tanks that just last?  But a beginner isnt going to know that bit either and will surely buy the contraption just for coolness factor and then their welds will most likely always be bunk and they just shot themselves in their own foot

While on one hand i agree with blue about keeping your own dick in your own vice... i dont really agree about that when it comes to newbies getting dealt a bad hand but that goes with any trade in one way or another... got to pay to play and sometimes education doesnt come cheap
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on April 06, 2018, 02:49:33 pm
(https://s26.postimg.org/nw0q9bded/2018-04-05_17.14.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nw0q9bded/)

A socketed PLCC on a modern, cost optimized product?

Interesting choice.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 06, 2018, 03:09:31 pm
(https://s26.postimg.org/nw0q9bded/2018-04-05_17.14.36.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nw0q9bded/)

A socketed PLCC on a modern, cost optimized product?

Interesting choice.
My guess is since they've not been a high-volume mfg before this, they're using previous gen parts to get the ball rolling. Looks like tons of room to reduce a BOM here... Target #1 could be that approx. 150VA split-bobbin transformer (I love it, but it's gotta be over $50 per 1000).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 06, 2018, 03:17:13 pm
It allows them to swap out the EEPROM or perhaps uC.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 06, 2018, 05:44:02 pm
One of the 8 pin chips, U6 appears to be a 93C46 serial EEPROM. It's soldered in, so I don't imagine it holds the main firmware, as you wouldn't be able to swap it in the field.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 06, 2018, 06:15:10 pm
That's for user settings, so the PLCC beside it is uC with firmware inside. On another note, the cap is a good KMG brand 105c and oddly enough, the 7805's heat-sink is fastened by a beefy slot-screw and star-lock washer. They obviously build these like tanks! *Using the ULN2003a as a display driver seems like using sledge when a framing hammer would suffice.. and could this be 4oz. copper? It looks like a PCB thick enough to withstand hammer-like button presses of some big Navy Seal. Again, lots of room to whittle down BOM costs and still achieve pro-sumer grade and super easy to repair. I like it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PA4TIM on April 06, 2018, 06:32:22 pm
It can be cheaper to use components you already use. If they make this in larger numbers they get a better price and lower the cost for the whole range. And maybe now  they can use the same tools etc .

Pace has a good name in the professional world, I think they are just careful not to damage that by producing junk.  I think many companies who have the big Pace stations also have a need for cheaper and/or simpeler stations but a decent quality. This way they keep the competition out and maybe have a way to reach new customers that have potential for their big toys.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 06, 2018, 06:45:53 pm
Hey! Our cool flying Dutchman (with fancy shop goggles) passes 1000 posts! Congrats!
When I first saw your custom headgear, I knew I had to subscribe to your channel.. and a mighty fine shop too!  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 06, 2018, 07:25:00 pm
That's for user settings, so the PLCC beside it is uC with firmware inside. On another note, the cap is a good KMG brand 105c and oddly enough, the 7805's heat-sink is fastened by a beefy slot-screw and star-lock washer. They obviously build these like tanks! *Using the ULN2003a as a display driver seems like using sledge when a framing hammer would suffice.. and could this be 4oz. copper? It looks like a PCB thick enough to withstand hammer-like button presses of some big Navy Seal. Again, lots of room to whittle down BOM costs and still achieve pro-sumer grade and super easy to repair. I like it.

Thanks for pointing out all the nice features. Simple but rugged. I don't need an OLED screen. It's not a TV. To be honest, I don't really need hot-swappable tips, but wanted the quick recovery of integrated heater & thermocouple in the tip. I look forward to getting something that's built like a brick $#!t house. That's the way tools should be. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 07, 2018, 12:21:56 am
Ok back to testing the unit out this evening and I have figured out why the unit went to 350 yesterday and would not respond until I powered the unit off and then back on.

Here is what the manual states but for me it does not go back up after the sponge is touched or using the temperature up and down buttons. I guess yesterday when I started to wick I was at the 30-minute mark and the unit went into auto setback.

Quote
Automatic Setback Timer

7. The Digital Display now shows the stored Automatic Setback time as "S-X" (x=0
thru 9). Time is shown as tens of minutes (e.g., "S-3" equals 30 minutes). A display
of "S-0" indicates that Setback is disabled. Choose one of the following:
• Press and release the Program Key ( ) to keep the currently stored
Temperature Setback time.
• Adjust the stored Temperature Setback value using keypad. ( )
• Press and release the Program Key ( ) to proceed to the next step.

What is Temperature Setback? To preserve tip life and save energy, the system can be programmed to
automatically set its Tip Temperature to a lower set point (adjustable during step 14) after a selectable period of
inactivity ( factory setting of 30 minutes). As received from the factory, this feature is enabled at 30 minutes and
temperature of 177°C (350°F). There are 3 ways to exit Temperature Setback; pressing the Scroll Up or Scroll
Down keys ( ), flipping the power switch off then on again, or holding the tip against a damp sponge. Upon
exit of the Temperature Setback, the unit will resume normal operations and the handpiece heat back up to the
Set Temperature.

I did not have time today to contact Aaron, but I did just send him a message to see where I go from here.

I should have waited for the ISB stand / kit me personally I think it is a must have but I just couldn’t wait. Once the stand is available I will be ordering it.

If anyone has the unit can you check to see if after 30 minutes of idle time the unit goes in to setback and you can bring it back by touching the sponge.

Sorry but for now I have to go back to my JBC I have work to get done.

Thanks,
Dean 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 07, 2018, 12:45:19 am
Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: blueskull on April 07, 2018, 12:54:16 am
Target #1 could be that approx. 150VA split-bobbin transformer (I love it, but it's gotta be over $50 per 1000).

Why don't they use a toroidal transformer? I found this online, literally first result from Google: http://www.acdcshop.gr/toroidalmainstransformer150w2302x17v-p-8789_en.html (http://www.acdcshop.gr/toroidalmainstransformer150w2302x17v-p-8789_en.html)

This is cheaper than even AliExpress price.

But still, the transformer price can be further lowered by using SMPS, but I doubt the total price will drop. If the iron tip is designed for AC operation (like some JBC), you need an inverter to drive AC from SMPS DC output, that increases cost.

Therefore, I think the overall cheapest solution would be using a toroidal mains transformer.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: dolivas27 on April 07, 2018, 01:17:06 am
Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.

That has been discussed earlier in the thread see post #39 and Pace is changing the firmware to allow this.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 07, 2018, 01:28:57 am
Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
On the other hand, thermal expansion coefficients of the copper core and iron tip cladding are unequal, so tip life may be much shorter with larger swings in temp. (at least, this document shows it). So is there a physicist in the house?

IMO, software setback will be just below solder-melt temp to stop the solders corrosive action on the tip. I doubt they would even allow swings down to 100C if they're going uphold a reputation - See link: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 07, 2018, 01:30:59 am
Target #1 could be that approx. 150VA split-bobbin transformer (I love it, but it's gotta be over $50 per 1000).

Why don't they use a toroidal transformer? I found this online, literally first result from Google: http://www.acdcshop.gr/toroidalmainstransformer150w2302x17v-p-8789_en.html (http://www.acdcshop.gr/toroidalmainstransformer150w2302x17v-p-8789_en.html)

This is cheaper than even AliExpress price.

But still, the transformer price can be further lowered by using SMPS, but I doubt the total price will drop. If the iron tip is designed for AC operation (like some JBC), you need an inverter to drive AC from SMPS DC output, that increases cost.

Therefore, I think the overall cheapest solution would be using a toroidal mains transformer.

Pretty sure some older Pace models used toroids. Probably depends what they can source.  Keep in mind. They probably have to be certified, etc. They're not building a DIY project.  I wouldn't use a switching supply regardless.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 07, 2018, 01:37:27 am

IMO, software setback will be just below solder-melt temp to stop the solders corrosive action on the tip. I doubt they would even allow swings down to 100C if they're going uphold a reputation - See link: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby)

There is probably a point of diminishing returns after you get below the melting point.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 07, 2018, 01:40:29 am
Quick question regarding set back temp. I see the Pace comes with the set back temp set to 350 F. Obviously just below the melting point of 60/40 lead solder. But I’m wondering, since these new style tips come back up to desired set temp very quickly, would setting the set back temp even LOWER, potentially add even more life to the tip? For example, choose 100 F Instead, small trade off in time, seconds perhaps. Would only be logical if temps even lower then 350 F, actually do increase tip life longevity. THANKS.
On the other hand, thermal expansion coefficients of the copper core and iron tip cladding are unequal, so tip life may be much shorter with larger swings in temp. (at least, this document shows it). So is there a physicist in the house?

IMO, software setback will be just below solder-melt temp to stop the solders corrosive action on the tip. I doubt they would even allow swings down to 100C if they're going uphold a reputation - See link: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby)

Thanks, it was more of a theoretical question, not a feature request, which you got! I have an iron that can be set as low as 50F. and then wondered, what would an ideal low temp be, if speed of recovery were not a factor. Interesting point about the potential downside of using larger temperature swings, though I have no clue, hence my question.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 07, 2018, 02:19:53 am
I heard that vacuum tubes in radio station equipment back in the day, lasted far longer(many years) by leaving it constantly powered on than when they hot-cold cycled it. Far less failures.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 07, 2018, 02:30:47 am
What you are looking for is thermal shock.  They are changing the firmware to allow the lowest user set able set point to be the same as the ISB temp of 350F/177C and thats about it.  Once you have solidified/frozen the molecules in place thats all you need to pro long your tip life.. if you start dropping down lower you start causing more than needed transition strain/stress between the differing metal layers which can induce thermal cracking and the larger the cracks just like a road.. the bigger the pot holes get eventually

Edit: there are other alloys like Tin/Bismuth that transition at 138C but thats rarer in actual use i think.. everything else is getting more into rohs alloys that are 220Cs+ so 350F/177C is a good minimum number to work with
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on April 07, 2018, 02:52:52 am
What you are looking for is thermal shock.  They are changing the firmware to allow the lowest user set able set point to be the same as the ISB temp of 350F/177C and thats about it.  Once you have solidified/frozen the molecules in place thats all you need to pro long your tip life.. if you start dropping down lower you start causing more than needed transition strain/stress between the differing metal layers which can induce thermal cracking and the larger the cracks just like a road.. the bigger the pot holes get eventually

Edit: there are other alloys like Tin/Bismuth that transition at 138C but thats rarer in actual use i think.. everything else is getting more into rohs alloys that are 220Cs+ so 350F/177C is a good minimum number to work with

THANKS, seems logical, Cliff was on the right path. I’ll stick with 350F for my set back temp. Learn something new here almost daily!

SORRY, hate to sidetrack threads, but this seemed “almost” on topic. :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on April 07, 2018, 02:35:10 pm
Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.

I'm kind of disconcerted by this. I wonder if I should cancel my order.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: jagw on April 07, 2018, 03:35:58 pm
Ok back to testing the unit out this evening and I have figured out why the unit went to 350 yesterday and would not respond until I powered the unit off and then back on.

Here is what the manual states but for me it does not go back up after the sponge is touched or using the temperature up and down buttons. I guess yesterday when I started to wick I was at the 30-minute mark and the unit went into auto setback.


I did not have time today to contact Aaron, but I did just send him a message to see where I go from here.

I should have waited for the ISB stand / kit me personally I think it is a must have but I just couldn’t wait. Once the stand is available I will be ordering it.

If anyone has the unit can you check to see if after 30 minutes of idle time the unit goes in to setback and you can bring it back by touching the sponge.

Sorry but for now I have to go back to my JBC I have work to get done.

Thanks,
Dean

I also have one of the first units.  No problems at all with my tips or handle.  The iron works great and the build quality appears excellent.

I do however have the same issue with the iron not sensing usage to avoid always triggering setback.  Also when going into setback it also does not reset by touching the sponge.  It does reset with the arrow key though.   I thought all this should work without the ISB stand.

When my unit is first turned on, the firmware version of 1-0 flashes up.  I see the users manual is already referenced to version 1-2.  I wonder if these issues are already resolved in 1-2?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 07, 2018, 04:14:38 pm
Ok the first tip I installed gave me the CHP error, so I pulled the tip and tried to reinsert it but could not get it to seat with the little tip tool they provided.

I'm kind of disconcerted by this. I wonder if I should cancel my order.

A pace rep reads this forum and actively engages folks, considering they are fast to respond to their initial issues if prompted i wouldnt worry about it.  The rubber o ring and the end of the tip not being compressed in on some is the only thing ive seen to give me pause but if it fouls up im sure they would send parts or flip the entire piece for dissection

jaqw, if you msg arron they will send you an updated chip if need be
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on April 08, 2018, 08:30:23 am
I also have one of the first units.  No problems at all with my tips or handle.  The iron works great and the build quality appears excellent.

I do however have the same issue with the iron not sensing usage to avoid always triggering setback.  Also when going into setback it also does not reset by touching the sponge.  It does reset with the arrow key though.   I thought all this should work without the ISB stand.
I have an Ersa i-Con nano, which uses the same method for determining usage to avoid setback. The situation that gets annoying on occasion is when it’s begun to enter setback (so it’s expecting a temp drop), and then a joint only needs a small amount of heat, so it just thinks it’s still dropping to setback. Plunging it into the brass wool sometimes is enough to wake it up, but usually it’s easier to just press a button. (The “big” i-Con models use an accelerometer in the handle to determine disuse, which is probably more reliable.)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 08, 2018, 01:52:22 pm
Ok so the problem with my unit is for sure the handle and could have been caused by the quality control problem on the tips not being fully assembled.
Pace will need to address the tip assembly problems.

They have already discovered a batch issue in some tips, so may have lead to unexpected problems and could be resolved already. As long as Pace knows about it, to know what to look for when testing.

I do however have the same issue with the iron not sensing usage to avoid always triggering setback.  Also when going into setback it also does not reset by touching the sponge.  It does reset with the arrow key though.   I thought all this should work without the ISB stand.

Aaron from Pace advised:

"The default setting is the unit will automatically “set back” the temperature to 350°F after 30 minutes of inactivity, then shut off the power to the TD-200 Handpiece 60 minutes after it goes into SetBack."

"The built-in Setback works like this: If you have the Setback Timer set for 60 minutes, the system senses that the unit is not in use and starts a clock timer that lowers the temperature after it senses no thermal load or activity for 60 minutes. It will react and reset the timer if it senses more than 10° or 15°F variance. For example, if you touch the sponge it drops the temp significantly and resets the timer to 60 minutes again."

"The unit detects thermal loads very quickly, but this depends upon the shape and mass of the tip. Generally, lower mass tips detect a load faster than the high-mass tips, but both are still sensing temperature change within 1 second."


Should be easy to test, if it doesn't come out of setback after holding it on a moist sponge for a second or two, likely either the station has switched off the handle or you have a setting problem.

When my unit is first turned on, the firmware version of 1-0 flashes up.  I see the users manual is already referenced to version 1-2.  I wonder if these issues are already resolved in 1-2?

The only change in 1.2 as far as we are aware was to allow the temp (and presets) to be set as low as 350°F/177°C. This would allow you to use a preset as a setback (if you wished).

As of a week ago there were only 100 in stock or customers hands, the rest were for their sales channel. Pace obviously will resolve further problems as they arise since it's early days still. I'd expect them to tweak the firmware until everything is spot on.

From what we have seen so far no reason not to get stuck in and start using it. Still waiting for mine, it's looking like I'll be in the next batch so will have to wait.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: jagw on April 08, 2018, 02:14:29 pm

Should be easy to test, if it doesn't come out of setback after holding it on a moist sponge for a second or two, likely either the station has switched off the handle or you have a setting problem.

From what we have seen so far no reason not to get stuck in and start using it. Still waiting for mine, it's looking like I'll be in the next batch so will have to wait.

I have tested it repeatedly.  I can see the display drop 10-15 degrees on the wet sponge, yet no wake-up.
I am using the iron in the meantime.   I will wait a bit and see if any other issues arise before requesting an update though.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 08, 2018, 02:33:24 pm
I have tested it repeatedly.  I can see the display drop 10-15 degrees on the wet sponge, yet no wake-up. I am using the iron in the meantime.   I will wait a bit and see if any other issues arise before requesting an update though.

Might pay to go through your station and copy down the settings you are using along with the tip part number and see if someone here can replicate it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 08, 2018, 02:34:16 pm
Mikes update on his initial tip problems, looks like all has been resolved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnksq77FB_g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnksq77FB_g)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 08, 2018, 02:37:19 pm
Pace ADS200 operation manual is online now. (https://www.paceworldwide.com/support/manuals/solder-desolder-conductive-rework)

Direct link (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200%20Operation%20Manual%20april%206th_0.pdf)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 08, 2018, 03:18:29 pm
I have an Ersa i-Con nano, which uses the same method for determining usage to avoid setback. The situation that gets annoying on occasion is when it’s begun to enter setback (so it’s expecting a temp drop), and then a joint only needs a small amount of heat, so it just thinks it’s still dropping to setback. Plunging it into the brass wool sometimes is enough to wake it up, but usually it’s easier to just press a button. (The “big” i-Con models use an accelerometer in the handle to determine disuse, which is probably more reliable.)

I think it's more likely to be a programming error than a detection issue. Such as an improperly nested subroutine or an error in the number specified for the temperature difference which resets the countdown timer. I don't believe previous models have the issue. And it would seem more likely that it would falsely detect use when it wasn't being used, rather than what's happening here. If someone is soldering for thirty minutes it seems virtually impossible not to detect a drop in temperature one time.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: jagw on April 08, 2018, 03:30:38 pm

Might pay to go through your station and copy down the settings you are using along with the tip part number and see if someone here can replicate it.

Dolivas27 in post #285 had the same issue on the Pace ADS200.   I suspect a firmware problem here also.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 09, 2018, 05:49:55 pm
I wanted to give you an update on the status of the ADS200. We are still making some changes to the firmware and examining the tips that came back from Mike's Radio Repair. We will also e taking a detailed look at dolivas27's Station & tips. I'll get back to you with an update soon. Just be assured that if you have any issues with the ADS200, we are committed to making it right for you. Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 09, 2018, 06:37:08 pm
Aaron - I've tested the 4 tips I've been using so far and all of them are right on the correct temperature.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 10, 2018, 05:13:22 pm
Has MSRP been established for the ADS200 with setback stand?

Will the switch and cable assembly for the ISB stand be available separately for those who wish to retrofit their stands?

Thanks

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 10, 2018, 05:28:42 pm
Has MSRP been established for the ADS200 with setback stand?

Will the switch and cable assembly for the ISB stand be available separately for those who wish to retrofit their stands?

Thanks

Yes, but only for the US (120VAC) version: ADS200 PN 8007-0579 $265 each. Will have Euro and GBP (UK) pricing for 230 VAC versions soon as well as ISB Tool Stand PN 6019-0089-P1. It should be something equivalent but don't have the specifics yet.

Aaron

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: unmaker on April 12, 2018, 02:33:39 am
Upon reading about the issues others have had with their TD-200 I decided to inspect my own TD-100. I had not even realized it, but the rubber grommet inside my TD-100 had come out of place and was shoved way down into the handpiece.  I had to get a pair of tweezers to pull it out and in that process it became a bit damaged. The other issue I had was one of my tips would not heat up like others have experienced with their TD-200. I have two 1126-0633-P1 tips; one works and the other doesn't. I took a video to demonstrate the issue:

https://streamable.com/ixiua (https://streamable.com/ixiua)

They look very much like the new ultra performance TD-200 tips but are actually a part of Pace's "Diamond Series" tips that can be used with their TD-100 and HTD-100 handpieces (I believe the HTD-100 is discontinued). This design, with the increased thermal mass near the end of the tip, was also used in Pace's "Gold Series" tips for use with their WJS-100 station. So I wonder if anyone has experienced this issue with a "Gold Series" tip? I also have other Diamond tips and have not tried them all yet. 

http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf (http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf)

I've included some pictures here:

https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO (https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 12, 2018, 11:26:04 am
FWIW, it appears the hi-temp o-rings are sold in packages of 5 (ask for part #1213-0090-P5 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1213-0090-P5/Soldering-Accessories/)). Text: This O-Ring is used to secure the tip and forms a protective seal to ensure the electrical connections in the TD-100 are always clean.  They will will wear out with normal use from the tip being inserted and pulled out and need to be replaced periodically.

Aaron, are these O-rings compatible (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td100-replacement-o-rings-pkg-5)? (TD200 is not listed under "Works with these handpieces" info..)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 12, 2018, 12:06:12 pm
FWIW, it appears the hi-temp o-rings are sold in packages of 5 (ask for part #1213-0090-P5 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1213-0090-P5/Soldering-Accessories/)). Text: This O-Ring is used to secure the tip and forms a protective seal to ensure the electrical connections in the TD-100 are always clean.  They will will wear out with normal use from the tip being inserted and pulled out and need to be replaced periodically.

Aaron, are these O-rings compatible (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td100-replacement-o-rings-pkg-5)? (TD200 is not listed under "Works with these handpieces" info..)

Yes, they are the very same. And you are correct, the O-Rings (as we call them) do wear out. The positioning of them matters to a degree, but as long as they hold your tip in place and the tip doesn't fall out, you're good.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 12, 2018, 12:22:15 pm
Upon reading about the issues others have had with their TD-200 I decided to inspect my own TD-100. I had not even realized it, but the rubber grommet inside my TD-100 had come out of place and was shoved way down into the handpiece.  I had to get a pair of tweezers to pull it out and in that process it became a bit damaged. The other issue I had was one of my tips would not heat up like others have experienced with their TD-200. I have two 1126-0633-P1 tips; one works and the other doesn't. I took a video to demonstrate the issue:

https://streamable.com/ixiua (https://streamable.com/ixiua)

They look very much like the new ultra performance TD-200 tips but are actually a part of Pace's "Diamond Series" tips that can be used with their TD-100 and HTD-100 handpieces (I believe the HTD-100 is discontinued). This design, with the increased thermal mass near the end of the tip, was also used in Pace's "Gold Series" tips for use with their WJS-100 station. So I wonder if anyone has experienced this issue with a "Gold Series" tip? I also have other Diamond tips and have not tried them all yet. 

http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf (http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf)



I've included some pictures here:

https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO (https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO)

I can see from the date code on the tips that the top tip shown in your image (the darker looking one) is from 2007 and the bottom one (the tip that no longer works) is from 2006. So both are fairly old. Can you tell me when that tip stopped working? Did the tip fail immediately or after a few years of use? Note that Diamond Tips are heavily coated (over 10 mils) with iron plating which can outlast the plating life. But it is hard to say what caused the failure, certainly not the O-Ring unless it was so loose in the TD-100 handpiece that it slipped out and dropped on a hard floor (which can short out the heater wires).

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 12, 2018, 03:13:16 pm

Yes, they are the very same. And you are correct, the O-Rings (as we call them) do wear out. The positioning of them matters to a degree, but as long as they hold your tip in place and the tip doesn't fall out, you're good.

Aaron

Do you recommend greasing or lubricating the O-ring?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on April 12, 2018, 03:26:43 pm

Yes, they are the very same. And you are correct, the O-Rings (as we call them) do wear out. The positioning of them matters to a degree, but as long as they hold your tip in place and the tip doesn't fall out, you're good.

Aaron

Do you recommend greasing or lubricating the O-ring?

At the present time, we don't add any lubricant at all, so it's not recommended. I doubt that a tiny bit would hurt anything, but the idea is for the O-Ring to grip the tip so that it does not fall out. So adding lubricant might make it too slippery. The secondary function of the O-Ring is to prevent gaseous flux vapor from fouling the gold contacts (a problem, especially with heavy RMA fluxes in our initial prototypes way back when), which it does beautifully.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 12, 2018, 05:55:44 pm
I wouldnt add lube either unless its extremely tight but even then you might just want a replacement o ring that they could send you for a couple of bucks to get a 5 pack.. if it was still too tight then it could be a machining error being a few thou off and might be worth a call to pace.

Also important note about lube and o rings... they must be matched or over time you will destroy the o ring. Using incompatible lube on an o ring seal is a big no no
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 12, 2018, 07:11:12 pm
Thanks,

After I thought about it, I figured it probably wouldn't be a good idea. Over time, silicone grease may migrate down the cartridge and foul up the tip or contaminate your work.

I don't use polish containing silicone on my lacquer finished guitars for similar reasons. According to one manufacturer, it works it way through the finish into the wood and you can't get it out. Then refinish work becomes difficult because nothing will bond properly.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on April 14, 2018, 06:31:04 pm
Whatever happens, I'd rather wait longer and get something reliable than to be a beta tester and having to potentially deal with customs and shipping and returns and whatever. (customs = nightmare)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on April 14, 2018, 07:58:02 pm
I used mine yesterday for a couple of hours and it got everything done.  The only issue I am having is that it goes to sleep when it shouldn't.  Hopefully they will get that fixed in the next version.  I'm going to disable it in options for now (sleep=0).  I use the button to lower the temp to 380 anyway.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: unmaker on April 15, 2018, 12:30:03 pm
Upon reading about the issues others have had with their TD-200 I decided to inspect my own TD-100. I had not even realized it, but the rubber grommet inside my TD-100 had come out of place and was shoved way down into the handpiece.  I had to get a pair of tweezers to pull it out and in that process it became a bit damaged. The other issue I had was one of my tips would not heat up like others have experienced with their TD-200. I have two 1126-0633-P1 tips; one works and the other doesn't. I took a video to demonstrate the issue:

https://streamable.com/ixiua (https://streamable.com/ixiua)

They look very much like the new ultra performance TD-200 tips but are actually a part of Pace's "Diamond Series" tips that can be used with their TD-100 and HTD-100 handpieces (I believe the HTD-100 is discontinued). This design, with the increased thermal mass near the end of the tip, was also used in Pace's "Gold Series" tips for use with their WJS-100 station. So I wonder if anyone has experienced this issue with a "Gold Series" tip? I also have other Diamond tips and have not tried them all yet. 

http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf (http://www.gsaservice.com/PACE_Diamond_Series_Soldering_Tips.pdf)



I've included some pictures here:

https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO (https://imgur.com/a/l7OLO)

I can see from the date code on the tips that the top tip shown in your image (the darker looking one) is from 2007 and the bottom one (the tip that no longer works) is from 2006. So both are fairly old. Can you tell me when that tip stopped working? Did the tip fail immediately or after a few years of use? Note that Diamond Tips are heavily coated (over 10 mils) with iron plating which can outlast the plating life. But it is hard to say what caused the failure, certainly not the O-Ring unless it was so loose in the TD-100 handpiece that it slipped out and dropped on a hard floor (which can short out the heater wires).

Aaron

Thank you for your input. Unfortunately earlier today the working tip dated 2007 stopped working midway through soldering. These tips were included with the used MBT-350 I got off ebay and I've been using the tip dated 2007 since November 2017. The one dated 2006 I've not been able to use at all. The seller claimed a few of these tips were unused including the two shown in the video. They appeared unused but since I'm not the original owner I can't say for certain. Maybe they were dropped before like you've mentioned but definitely not by me. I bought additional tips from TEquipment and they all work fine. They are dated 2016/2017.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on April 17, 2018, 10:13:00 am
Yes, but only for the US (120VAC) version: ADS200 PN 8007-0579 $265 each. Will have Euro and GBP (UK) pricing for 230 VAC versions soon as well as ISB Tool Stand PN 6019-0089-P1. It should be something equivalent but don't have the specifics yet.

Aaron

Dear Aaron

Could you give us a notice here when ADS200 becomes available in EU, and from which suppliers.

Regarding this topic.
I did not understand bashing of JBC. In my company we use JBC equipment all the time. Never had problems with oxidizing tips.
They have great collection of cartridges, and they all work great. The units are practically indestructible.

However JBC is extremely overpriced, and I am not a kind of person that would cheap out on tools. I have no problem in paying for quality.
For me personally the deal breaker is the fact that middle range stations from JBC cannot be used with both iron and tweezers. You need 2 stations for that.
There is now DI-D2 model from JBC but this I think a new addition, that supports both iron and tweezers, however only the station without any hand-piece costs about 450-470euro on batronix and that is kind of a crappy move from JBC.

When i read that ADS200 will have support a new model of tweezers I was sold immediately, and decided to wait a little unit this unit comes out. I canceled my JBC order.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 17, 2018, 11:41:45 am
elektropionir, sorry for the catchy thread title. IMHO, only small group of owners (mostly on the first page) had poor experience with their tips. Accurately controlling 250w tips on an ergonomic iron requires a good company to do it reliably  :-+  However read the comments from Pace, they know who their competition is.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 17, 2018, 04:24:46 pm
Internet forums tend to be that way. People mostly report great experiences or they slam you with bad ones. Not much in between. Some will criticize a low cost product that happens to be a good value because it doesn't perform exactly like the super expensive model they're used to. And they're probably less likely to forgive a bad experience with expensive products.

I receive emails for service work that I do. I find that some people are much more demanding now than they were thirty years ago. They expect the best service, instantly, for the lowest cost. Sometimes when you help them, you don't even get the courtesy of a reply.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 17, 2018, 04:51:46 pm
Internet forums tend to be that way. People mostly report great experiences or they slam you with bad ones. Not much in between. Some will criticize a low cost product that happens to be a good value because it doesn't perform exactly like the super expensive model they're used to. And they're probably less likely to forgive a bad experience with expensive products.

I receive emails for service work that I do. I find that some people are much more demanding now than they were thirty years ago. They expect the best service, instantly, for the lowest cost. Sometimes when you help them, you don't even get the courtesy of a reply.

I've noticed that in general as well... just a flat out lack of manners

manners maketh man
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ironcurtain on April 18, 2018, 07:43:33 am
From people owning a Hakko 951 at US prices... I have a chance to buy a real, non fake, discounted kit with extra handles and other goodies... At 300 with four extra tips, tip holder, and extra hand piece.

Would it make sense to lose the chance to bring it with me to Europe and wait for the ADS200? Are prices and release dates even confirmed? I won't have the chance to be stateside for a while due to personal reasons.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on April 18, 2018, 08:36:52 am
ironcurtain,

I'm in your boat, as I want to replace my Edsyn 971. I would get the sweet deal on the Hakko right now. If you find that you really need the extra power of the ADS200 (40 more watts?) plus the instant set-back feature, etc--buy it later. I don't believe that there is something you won't be able to do w/the 951, and it kinda seems like it's early days for the ADS200--with some exciting things coming down the road (ISB/Tweezer/etc)...a bird in the hand...as they say.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ironcurtain on April 18, 2018, 09:01:54 am
Agreed, I think the 951 with a properly sized transformer will be perfect for my needs, and altogether come at a much better price. I will report on how this goes... EU prices just SUCK.
I will check if the whole thing fits a box I can either take with me or send through USPS...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 18, 2018, 12:58:58 pm
From people owning a Hakko 951 at US prices... I have a chance to buy a real, non fake, discounted kit with extra handles and other goodies... At 300 with four extra tips, tip holder, and extra hand piece.

Would it make sense to lose the chance to bring it with me to Europe and wait for the ADS200? Are prices and release dates even confirmed? I won't have the chance to be stateside for a while due to personal reasons.

One site has the ADS200 listed at the same price for either 120v or 220v models.  I guess you have to decide if you can wait or not.

Even here, Hakko charges extra for their 220v model. And you can't change the voltage on the 120V model. 

I'm assuming the line voltage for the Pace is not switchable internally?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 18, 2018, 03:15:01 pm
Quote
Even here, Hakko charges extra for their 220v model. And you can't change the voltage on the 120V model.

Looks like the Pace ADS200 with instant setback stand at list price may come in cheaper than the closest competition (at even their on special price).

But it's really an easy decision, Pace makes production level gear and you can tell they have gone to work on the handle to get things just right. I think the interface, enclosure and stand has stood the test of time.

It looks on the surface to consolidate several Pace products, if this will be a successor to the Pace Intelliheat TD-100 alone there is roughly 140 something different tips available, including a pile of specialty removal and blade tips which come in handy for BGA and rework. Will be interesting to see where this Accudrive line heads.

One site has the ADS200 listed at the same price for either 120v or 220v models.  I guess you have to decide if you can wait or not.

That is about about $30 less than the European list price (in US dollars) and if you can dodge the tax that is super cheap.

Quote
I'm assuming the line voltage for the Pace is not switchable internally?

Pretty sure they aren't otherwise it would say, but they are 50/60Hz compatible and from the image that GreyWoolfie posted a while back the FX-951 is not both 50/60Hz.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 18, 2018, 04:21:17 pm

Pretty sure they aren't otherwise it would say, but they are 50/60Hz compatible and from the image that GreyWoolfie posted a while back the FX-951 is not both 50/60Hz.

I don't think the line frequency is critical in this case. Dual voltage transformers usually have two primary windings which are wired in series or parallel for 220v or 120v respectively. I guess it saves cost to use a single winding. Hakko apparently does it so they can have different pricing in various markets.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 18, 2018, 06:49:45 pm
I don't think the line frequency is critical in this case.

For the USA as the situation is reversed, it makes very little difference. For other countries running especially cheap or poorly spec'd 110/120V 60Hz transformers from places such as China on 50Hz, it's not the best idea.

US made 60Hz transformers (historically) are a different story, they normally have some degree of headroom (possibly due to materials, quality and rated tolerance) which may offset the ~20% loss when running at 50Hz. US made transformers rated for both 50/60Hz though are the best way to go to avoid issues.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 18, 2018, 07:09:39 pm
I don't think the line frequency is critical in this case.

For the USA as the situation is reversed, it makes very little difference. For other countries running especially cheap or poorly spec'd 110/120V 60Hz transformers from places such as China on 50Hz, it's not the best idea.

US made 60Hz transformers (historically) are a different story, they normally have some degree of headroom (possibly due to materials, quality and rated tolerance) which may offset the ~20% loss when running at 50Hz. US made transformers rated for both 50/60Hz though are the best way to go to avoid issues.

That makes a good case to stay away from knock-offs. The Chinese seem to be unable to make anything of value without supervision. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 18, 2018, 08:28:24 pm
That makes a good case to stay away from knock-offs. The Chinese seem to be unable to make anything of value without supervision.

Not so much that but is more a function of the production triangle: good, fast, cheap.. pick two

China is fast and cheap so there is your answer.. its a good rule of thumb no matter where you go
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 18, 2018, 08:31:15 pm

It looks on the surface to consolidate several Pace products, if this will be a successor to the Pace Intelliheat TD-100 alone there is roughly 140 something different tips available, including a pile of specialty removal and blade tips which come in handy for BGA and rework. Will be interesting to see where this Accudrive line heads.


This has been my thinking as well, they can consolidate production lines, boost specific part volume, and drive out cost that way and is their real money maker out of this
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: ironcurtain on April 19, 2018, 04:34:38 am
What site is listing the 230v model at the same price? (pm maybe)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 19, 2018, 04:51:56 am
What site is listing the 230v model at the same price? (pm maybe)

Says "Special Order". So probably not in stock. I imagine TEquipment will also carry it, when it becomes available.

https://www.jensentools.com/pace-8007-0580-ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-220v/p/489-217 (https://www.jensentools.com/pace-8007-0580-ads200-accudrive-soldering-station-220v/p/489-217)

https://www.jensentools.com/search?q=ads200 (https://www.jensentools.com/search?q=ads200)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 19, 2018, 10:17:11 am
Europe isnt due to go to production till mid May or so, id expect to see listings show up in the next week or two
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 19, 2018, 01:17:45 pm
Europe isn't due to go to production till mid May or so, id expect to see listings show up in the next week or two

Here is what Aaron said earlier. Not that international shipping and customs is an exact science :)

The standard ADS unit will be available by the end of April, but I doubt the ADS200 with SetBack Tool Stand will be available until mid-May. Mainly because the parts for the Tool Stand all arrive during the 3rd week of April, meaning it will take time to assemble, then it takes 3 weeks to ship to UK (we ship all stock to PACE Europe via slow boat to China ...).
Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 19, 2018, 01:34:11 pm
I was thinking he was here in the US and would take it back with him. If you aren't here it's probably easier to wait and see what the price will be from a European distributor.
Title: Newest Pace ADS200 production station
Post by: Shock on April 24, 2018, 07:52:20 pm
Aaron,

Feel free to update us when the 230V model and ISB stands are out for distribution in the UK and USA. There are a few people waiting in a holding pattern to get their hands on one.

Am keen to know also when the firmware's sorted, I myself don't have a problem with a firmware upgrade as I know the PCB, but it would to be good to know when it's cleared so we can unequivocally tell people they can pull the trigger.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: jagw on April 24, 2018, 09:33:28 pm
+1 on the stable firmware.   Also when do you expect the backordered tips to start showing up.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on April 26, 2018, 12:34:56 pm
Distributors in Australia have been waiting on Pace to provide pricing information... which was supposed to happen two weeks ago!

There must be supply and  manufacturing issues still going on behind the scenes?

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on April 26, 2018, 01:18:57 pm
or.. AU distributors maybe not that excited about downward price adjustments on existing competitive stock (https://www.mektronics.com.au/pace-st50-solder-station-w-td-100-soldering-iron.html)?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on April 26, 2018, 09:41:21 pm
Pace only did a limited production run on the first outing. Looks like they are going to be busy at the "dwarven forge" for quite some time.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on April 28, 2018, 12:34:16 am
Pace only did a limited production run on the first outing. Looks like they are going to be busy at the "dwarven forge" for quite some time.

Mine finally came in a couple days ago, works like a champ.. too bad only one of my tips was with it lol

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on April 28, 2018, 02:36:55 am
I think a little patience is in order. I'd rather wait a bit longer than have to deal with a problem. And I'm in the USA.

TEquipment has three left in stock. Eight were sold this week. Thus, they probably won't ship new stock until they get the bugs worked out and solve any QC issues with the tips. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: eeval on May 07, 2018, 12:44:25 pm
Hello just checking in on the setback stand and firmware update?  are these available now?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on May 07, 2018, 01:04:08 pm
Hello just checking in on the setback stand and firmware update?  are these available now?

Far as I can tell, we're still waiting. TEquipment is completely of stock and I've seen no new announcements anywhere. I'm thinking they're being a little more thorough this time with testing and QC before "going gold".
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on May 07, 2018, 07:25:33 pm
Has this thread jinxed the ADS200 by calling it a "JBC killer"?

All smartphones branded by media and fans as "iPhone killer" only managed to kill themselves...  >:D
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on May 07, 2018, 09:50:46 pm
Has this thread jinxed the ADS200 by calling it a "JBC killer"?

All smartphones branded by media and fans as "iPhone killer" only managed to kill themselves...  >:D
Not stupersticious are you?  :scared:  FWIW, Pace would be analogous to Apple in this case (albeit with an iffy product launch..)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on May 07, 2018, 09:55:47 pm
FWIW, Pace would be analogous to Apple in this case (albeit with an iffy product launch..)
Why? The thread did not declare JBC a Pace killer, so Pace can't be Apple. Pace is more like Nokia.  :box:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on May 07, 2018, 10:01:29 pm
Has this thread jinxed the ADS200 by calling it a "JBC killer"?

All smartphones branded by media and fans as "iPhone killer" only managed to kill themselves...  >:D
Not stupersticious are you?  :scared:  FWIW, Pace would be analogous to Apple in this case (albeit with an iffy product launch..)

No Pace would have to be the Android model here.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on May 08, 2018, 02:07:09 pm
Subbing for updates  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on May 08, 2018, 11:04:55 pm
Hello just checking in on the setback stand and firmware update?  are these available now?

Far as I can tell, we're still waiting. TEquipment is completely of stock and I've seen no new announcements anywhere. I'm thinking they're being a little more thorough this time with testing and QC before "going gold".

More than that by just watching my order and knowing some others that ordered it looks like they recalled the initial release batch.  So no.. not apple, they dont want whatever defect it was getting to far out there.

That said i got mine a few weeks ago with a 1/8 chisel that works just peachy. Very nice upgrade from my basic weller. Literally just got the mount bracket a few minutes ago from ups.  I'd rather wait for the rest of my tips than be suspicious of them dying on me so i dont really mind.

That said would love to know what happened with them if anyone hears something from pace
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: CustomEngineerer on May 09, 2018, 04:54:10 am
Subbing for updates  :-+

Notify button at top and bottom of page should also perform same functionality without wasted post.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Stavos122 on May 11, 2018, 09:38:12 pm
At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors.  Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC.  Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour.  Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept).  Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor.  Hand soldering going mainstream.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on May 11, 2018, 10:27:30 pm
At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors.  Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC.  Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour.  Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept).  Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor.  Hand soldering going mainstream.

The tips are supposed to be low cost as well, ~$11USD compared to $22USD for Hakko T15 tips. Unless you're implying they won't last long, which would be counter to Pace's history.

I was going to get a FX-951, but the ADS200 is the same price, has 60% more power, cheaper tips, and should be higher quality. Definitely going to get a the Pace once the firmware and tip quality issues are fleshed out.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: jagw on May 11, 2018, 10:52:42 pm
At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors.  Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC.  Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour.  Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept).  Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor.  Hand soldering going mainstream.

These are made in the US.   I suspect they are banking on existing tooling and economies of scale because many components seem to be similar or the same as their other products.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Stavos122 on May 12, 2018, 02:53:24 pm
At a retail price of $239 Pace is probably selling them at about $150 to distributors.  Seems too low for a quality unit that would compete with a precision brand like JBC.  Productions costs in China are on the rise and their workers are no longer making $0.50/hour.  Maybe they are planning to make up the low unit cost in tips (i.e. inkjet printer concept).  Maybe they hope to sell at least one unit to every eevblog subscriber and their neighbor.  Hand soldering going mainstream.

These are made in the US.   I suspect they are banking on existing tooling and economies of scale because many components seem to be similar or the same as their other products.

Wow I did not realize Pace makes their soldering stations in US.  Even if "makes" means all components / modules are coming in from China and it takes them 5 minutes to put them together.  The fact that it will have Made in the USA on the label at this price point is impressive.   
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on May 20, 2018, 03:44:34 pm
Any updates? I pre-ordered mine over two months ago.  ???
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on May 20, 2018, 04:09:37 pm
Any updates? I pre-ordered mine over two months ago.  ???

Not heard anything, we are all in the same boat.
I ordered a refill for my Pace fiber cleaning tool to tide me over.

(https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_thumb/1100-0232_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on May 21, 2018, 02:27:08 am
Looks like a rebrand of a cleaning tool from Eraser Co.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on May 21, 2018, 11:21:59 pm
Looks like a rebrand of a cleaning tool from Eraser Co.

The Eraser Co. versions are somewhat similar in concept, however I believe Pace actually have made those Fibreglass/Sponge cleaning tools for at least 25 years (at least that's how long I've had mine). They're for sale by themselves as well as included with the PRC2000 sets: https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/tip-maintenance-station- (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/tip-maintenance-station-)

 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on May 23, 2018, 10:09:32 pm
TEquipment now lists the Pace ADS200 with setback stand. Maybe coming soon! Though not quite the same discount as the bare-bones model.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on May 23, 2018, 11:35:20 pm
TEquipment now lists the Pace ADS200 with setback stand. Maybe coming soon! Though quite not the same discount as the bare-bones model.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
Even with ISB stand, that $265 MSRP still looks very competitive. Who else delivers 120watts in that range?
Perhaps the long delay is because they're so serious on production-level perfection.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on May 24, 2018, 12:20:47 am
TEquipment now lists the Pace ADS200 with setback stand. Maybe coming soon! Though quite not the same discount as the bare-bones model.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323 (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/ADS200-8007-0579/Soldering-Stations/?b=y&v=126323)
Even with ISB stand, that $265 MSRP still looks very competitive. Who else delivers 120watts in that range?
Perhaps the long delay is because they're so serious on production-level perfection.

Tequipments sale price is $252 for the ISB combo so that is $237 if they do the EEVblog discount, and free US shipping. That's pretty sweet :D.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knapik on May 24, 2018, 08:27:01 am
For being as poor as I am, I am rather interested in this new soldering station. I'm a bit disappointed with my current one and wouldn't mind (too much at least) investing for something which should be future proof.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mavu on May 24, 2018, 11:21:54 am
I have a decision problem:

wait until this becomes available in europe for a decent price, or go for the Unisolder DIY approach.

Any comments?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on May 24, 2018, 12:28:42 pm
I have a decision problem:
wait until this becomes available in europe for a decent price, or go for the Unisolder DIY approach. Any comments?

I considered the Unisolder when it first came out, if you use a high power handle that has a decent tip range you don't need to consider multiple handle compatibility though, so seemed a bit of a waste and of extra effort.

So then I was considering "high end" high power handle of about $100 and DIY my own power supply and user interface with adjustable temp, put it in a nice case, controls where I like them etc.

Really Pace have done the same thing here with the ADS200, way cheaper in time and effort than DIY and hits all the marks, a nice user interface, metal construction. There is nothing really not to like about it. Tip range, price, company, and based on their past series the Accudrive range has room to expand. Big red LEDs is like icing on the cake for me.

I've ordered a couple so am looking forward to that, will run two handles and try the tweezers later when they are done.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on May 25, 2018, 10:24:29 pm
I had some downtime today, so I spoke with the TEquipment rep that handles Pace line. He said no ETA yet. So I'll keep waiting and hope my Weller doesn't die in the meantime. It's over 20. A while back, I had to cut and shorten the cord at the strain relief.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on May 27, 2018, 01:51:34 am
Dyaxxis,

How are those cleaning tools used?  Sponge vs Fiberglass? 

Also, speaking of fiberglass, I was thinking of buy a fiberglass cleaner/scratch brush for removing flux, but then I read about how messy and dangerous they can be (with out goggles), is there a decent flux tool besides these scratch brushes?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on May 27, 2018, 02:33:01 am
How are those cleaning tools used?  Sponge vs Fiberglass?

Essentially, they were designed by Pace to use with a brushing motion to clean off "speciality tips", like the "IC" removal tips. Here's a nice video which shows how they can be used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0wI-5YZQm4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0wI-5YZQm4)

Over the years, I've actually learned much cheaper, milder, yet very effective methods to clean my soldering iron tips. Believe it or not, I use this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk)

Only difference is that I use a high-temp silicon pad with piece of "low-lint flux residue removal fabric" if I think a Kimwipe would not be sufficient.

Also, speaking of fiberglass, I was thinking of buy a fiberglass cleaner/scratch brush for removing flux, but then I read about how messy and dangerous they can be (with out goggles), is there a decent flux tool besides these scratch brushes?

Unless there's absolutely no alternative, I personally am not too keen on using abrasive techniques to remove "dried/hardened" flux. I use a safe solvent along with a Kimwipe or a "disposable lint-free cloth."
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on May 27, 2018, 07:45:04 pm
Also, speaking of fiberglass, I was thinking of buy a fiberglass cleaner/scratch brush for removing flux, but then I read about how messy and dangerous they can be (with out goggles), is there a decent flux tool besides these scratch brushes?
Removing flux residue with a fiber brush? No. Use flux remover solvent.
The fiberglass brush is for cleaning corrosion on surfaces that will not be soldered, like battery contacts.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on May 28, 2018, 03:19:40 am
The fiber pencils are the best scratch tools for PCB tracks. The Pace one is good for eyelets, turrets etc or roughing up larger areas and cleaning clingy crap/rubbish off solder tips. It's not affected by heat and easy to use so fits it's purpose and a fairly low abrasive when just wiping with a light touch.

For old rosin flux on the PCB pure IPA works but it doesn't instantly melt, you have to add a bit of rubbing or use a small brush to loose it up. Rosin won't just evaporate off either but when sticky it's easier to dilute it and remove with a bud or wipe/cloth, if it's very dilute it can be rinsed away.

The commercial flux removers may have IPA but will likely have additional more aggressive solvents in the mix as well. If you wanted to control what you are using or DIY you can make your own cocktail.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on May 28, 2018, 02:17:59 pm
The fiber pencils are the best scratch tools for PCB tracks. The Pace one is good for eyelets, turrets etc or roughing up larger areas and cleaning clingy crap/rubbish off solder tips. It's not affected by heat and easy to use so fits it's purpose and a fairly low abrasive when just wiping with a light touch.

For old rosin flux on the PCB pure IPA works but it doesn't instantly melt, you have to add a bit of rubbing or use a small brush to loose it up. Rosin won't just evaporate off either but when sticky it's easier to dilute it and remove with a bud or wipe/cloth, if it's very dilute it can be rinsed away.

The commercial flux removers may have IPA but will likely have additional more aggressive solvents in the mix as well. If you wanted to control what you are using or DIY you can make your own cocktail.

I watched that entire long video again, as those Pace tools fascinate me. It seems for large odd size tips the fiber pen is a good option, but for my normal size tips, don’t see how a fiber pen is any better then the Hakko flux coated brass pads.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on May 28, 2018, 02:44:06 pm
Over the years, I've actually learned much cheaper, milder, yet very effective methods to clean my soldering iron tips. Believe it or not, I use this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqf2RhRINk)

What is "gold brillow tip cleaner" ?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on May 28, 2018, 03:38:58 pm
What is "gold brillow tip cleaner" ?
My guess is that the video creator meant an ordinary "brass wool" tip cleaner. Brillo™ is a brand of kitchen scouring pads.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on May 28, 2018, 04:13:50 pm
These:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on May 28, 2018, 05:17:41 pm
So how's that innovating in any way... People have been using brass wool for years. Is the innovation in wiping the tip with cloth after tinning? I must be missing something.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on May 28, 2018, 05:23:30 pm
So how's that innovating in any way... People have been using brass wool for years. Is the innovation in wiping the tip with cloth after tinning? I must be missing something.

The graphic text says it was a “SECRET” method.  :palm:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on May 28, 2018, 10:19:18 pm
The videos I posted earlier are NOT mine, but I do find them informative, even if not necessarily viable for everyone.

Now, I like the fact that the ADS200 unit and current tip line are an excellent value, however... I use special tip shapes in my current set that are similar to what is seen in Marc Seigel's Pace video and almost all of them are considerably more expensive than their conventional shaped counterparts. I hope that the AccuDrive special tips would be much cheaper than what's currently available for other irons, but I'll have to wait and see.

Regardless of price, I tried a similar method to what's in the John Gammel video and all of my tips have lasted almost twice as long than before, yet I been able to reduce my tip cleaning consumable use and costs significantly.

Just my experience.  8)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on May 28, 2018, 10:50:15 pm
What exactly is informative in the above video? It shows a tip being wettened and then wiped with some sort of material that the blurry video does not allow to see what the wipe material may be made of. There is no brass wool in the video at all. Unless it was an April fool, i fail to see how one can find it a useful video.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on May 28, 2018, 11:12:40 pm
What exactly is informative in the above video? It shows a tip being wettened and then wiped with some sort of material that the blurry video does not allow to see what the wipe material may be made of. There is no brass wool in the video at all. Unless it was an April fool, i fail to see how one can find it a useful video.

It works well for myself a few others and if it doesn't for you so be it. End of story.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on May 29, 2018, 12:38:13 am
The material is a Kimwipe, based on my knowledge of IPC techniques (you can see it used in other videos).
It is recommended to wipe over an empty trash bin as solder may fall down.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on May 29, 2018, 02:30:59 am
The material is a Kimwipe, based on my knowledge of IPC techniques (you can see it used in other videos).
It is recommended to wipe over an empty trash bin as solder may fall down.

Yeah you want to wipe off and away from the tip, same for brass wool. I believe he is just using a dry wipe in this case. I've cleaned cold tips with IPA but I'm not sure how wise it is to do with a hot tip.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on May 30, 2018, 11:10:33 pm
The material is a Kimwipe, based on my knowledge of IPC techniques (you can see it used in other videos).
It is recommended to wipe over an empty trash bin as solder may fall down.

Yeah you want to wipe off and away from the tip, same for brass wool. I believe he is just using a dry wipe in this case. I've cleaned cold tips with IPA but I'm not sure how wise it is to do with a hot tip.

It will auto ignite at around 400C ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on June 02, 2018, 04:32:36 am
I'm not too sure if Aaron from Pace would be able to confirm or not, but since I'm awaiting AccuDrive hot-tweezers and blue series special tips, I'm very curious if one of several future AccuDrive stations would be similar to the ST 115.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: wrinklehead on June 07, 2018, 03:24:01 pm
Has there been any movement in getting the various issues fixed.  I'm looking for a new soldering station and wondering if this is safe to order yet...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on June 07, 2018, 09:44:22 pm
Who knows? I put in an order two months ago with a local supplier and I still don't have anything. PACE hasn't been updating anything here.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 08, 2018, 04:28:07 pm
Has there been any movement in getting the various issues fixed.  I'm looking for a new soldering station and wondering if this is safe to order yet...

When Tequipment has stock it's a good indicator the ball is rolling again. This second batch should have the first models coming with optional instant setback stands. Worth waiting for in my opinion.

Here is another picture to drool over in the meantime.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2018, 09:50:46 am
So I haven't really been following this saga. Did Pace ever say what the problem with the tips was and how they fixed it?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 09, 2018, 11:37:44 am
So I haven't really been following this saga. Did Pace ever say what the problem with the tips was and how they fixed it?

Mike from MikesRadioRepair (https://www.youtube.com/user/trclubricants/videos) purchased 11 tips with his station and 3 had probs. Pace identified that 2 were from a very early batch that had a known and resolved issue. The other tip had a heating capacity problem and they were going to do failure analysis on it. So it was more like 1 out of 11 tips had to be looked into.

It didn't seem to be the entire range or a design type prob since Mikes tips were replaced the next day. But no they havn't mentioned what it was, it doesn't look too serious though as his replacements seem to work fine.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on June 09, 2018, 01:20:36 pm
Not sure about the tips but the Pace rep at Tequipment told me they made a change to the machining of the handpiece. Not sure why the long silence. Maybe they're taking the time to be positive that it's all corrected so they don't have any more issues with the roll-out.  The internet tends to be pretty ruthless when it comes to public relations.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on June 09, 2018, 09:12:54 pm
Not sure about the tips but the Pace rep at Tequipment told me they made a change to the machining of the handpiece. Not sure why the long silence. Maybe they're taking the time to be positive that it's all corrected so they don't have any more issues with the roll-out.  The internet tends to be pretty ruthless when it comes to public relations.

Interesting... wonder if they will send me one once they get it rolling again.. although mine seems fine.  The rep happen to say what they changed with it?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on June 10, 2018, 12:09:04 am

Interesting... wonder if they will send me one once they get it rolling again.. although mine seems fine.  The rep happen to say what they changed with it?


He didn't say. When I asked why their was no ETA, he explained briefly that there were a few minor issues. The hand-piece being one of them. Also firmware changes to the base unit and a small percentage of early production tip cartridges which we already knew about. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on June 11, 2018, 08:26:49 pm
So, of the issues I have read about the unit so far, there is the QC on the tips--something that they will probably "iron" out in the manufacturing process.

Secondly, the rubber O-ring/gasket that is friction fit inside the handpiece not staying in position, moving around, etc (first mentioned in post# 266 by Dolivas) -- are thing going to re-design this?

Finally, we have the firmware upgrade to lower the minimum temperatur as well as being able to buy the unit with the instant setback stand--that should just be a matter of time.  Is that about everything?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on June 12, 2018, 01:44:31 am
Perhaps the machining of the handpiece was tweaked because the o-ring seal? Of course I'm speculating.

I think the firmware also had a bug in where the setback function wasn't working properly.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on June 14, 2018, 03:20:59 am
This extended wait is a killer!

It would be nice if Aaron from Pace could update us.
(Can anyone local in the USA drop in and suggest that?)

But, I appreciate he may not want to get bogged down in answering endless questions on a forum like this, and he may have been directed from above to STFU until it's officially sorted and re-released.

Will have to look at alternatives soon.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on June 14, 2018, 03:25:16 am
They are 4 months late. JBC must be laughing.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 14, 2018, 05:10:07 am
They are 4 months late. JBC must be laughing.

Oh look another potential Pace customer unhappy with JBC firmware, tips, design, reliability, price, marketing hype, customer service. :D

It's actually more like 6 weeks so far. In the USA they weren't going into large scale production and do the instant setback stand until April.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on June 16, 2018, 07:10:28 pm
A simple message like "we're redesigning X because we made a mistake" would be a lot better than silence.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on June 17, 2018, 02:09:53 pm
They are 4 months late. JBC must be laughing.

Oh look another potential Pace customer unhappy with JBC firmware, tips, design, reliability, price, marketing hype, customer service. :D

It's actually more like 6 weeks so far. In the USA they weren't going into large scale production and do the instant setback stand until April.

How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on June 17, 2018, 03:32:36 pm
Maybe he's on early summer holidays? I'll shoot off an email , maybe we'll get better info.. Happy fathers day!!  :-+

FWIW, I too have been waiting to retire some old friends:
(https://s22.postimg.cc/jti0zvqvl/For_Sale-_Weller-_Lil-dandy.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on June 17, 2018, 05:00:23 pm
How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
As I wrote earlier. This thread jinxed it. You can't say you are going to kill the market leader without killing yourself.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on June 17, 2018, 06:04:54 pm
How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.
As I wrote earlier. This thread jinxed it. You can't say you are going to kill the market leader without killing yourself.
Superstition's are not for EE's. My question's in the title, but feel free to explain that unqualified "market leader" statement..
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on June 17, 2018, 06:30:03 pm
My question's in the title, but feel free to explain that unqualified "market leader" statement..
It's in the title.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 17, 2018, 06:41:09 pm
How is it 6 weeks when their ad was saying "available in March" ? We are at mid June today.

Perhaps you missed that they were shipping US units in March and April to customers. Dealers were showing stock in March as well. The US April batch that was to follow was obviously put on hold. From what Aaron was indicating, the earliest they would have possibly shipped them anyway was the end of April (with ISB stands).

So more like ~6 weeks delay from when you said that, not 17 weeks (4 months).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on June 17, 2018, 07:37:46 pm
My question's in the title, but feel free to explain that unqualified "market leader" statement..
It's in the title.
Perhaps you see it, but killing some gaudy looking fad is how I prefer to see it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on June 17, 2018, 08:09:22 pm
It get's here when it does.  It's obviously taking longer than they intended. I don't think they owe everyone a weekly update.

After reading some of the comments, here and elsewhere, I wouldn't blame them for not posting until it's ready to roll.

If you want to know that badly then call Pace and ask.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on June 17, 2018, 08:17:14 pm
Perhaps you see it, but killing some gaudy looking fad is how I prefer to see it.
Hakko is the gaudy looking fad with its weird color combinations.
Pace is the seventies looking things with slotted screws.
JBC is the stuff that works and is delivered.
 :box:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on June 18, 2018, 07:32:52 pm
To All EEVBloggers:

From: Aaron Caplan, PACE Worldwide

Finally, an update from PACE on the status of the ADS200 & Tips!

First of all, I’d like to thank you all for you for your patience and support, as we certainly were premature in our production predictions. I am so sorry for the delay and lack of update information, but it looks like we’re finally ready to reggae!

PACE Worldwide is happy to report that we are back in production on the ADS200 Soldering Systems and AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges! As many of you already know, out of an abundance of caution, we had suspended production 2 months ago as a small percentage of our AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges did not meet our exacting standards for quality. This issue has now been resolved and does not affect any current ADS200 Systems already in the field.

Please see the attached pdf Memo, which explains every thing you need to know about the ADS200. I have also attached current price lists in 3 different currencies.

Again, I thank you for your patience. Feel free to contact me directly at acaplan [AT] paceworldwide [DOT] com if you have questions or need additional information.

Best,

Aaron


Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 19, 2018, 06:45:41 am
Awesome news Aaron and appreciate the update. I imagine Pace is working overtime manufacturing tips and will sell them like hotcakes once the ball starts gaining momentum again.

Today I got around to cleaning and loading my Pace fiber cleaning tool. Along with the Pace tip tool these have to be my top two favorite soldering accessories of all time.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=459433;image)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on June 19, 2018, 08:22:54 pm
Aaron,

thanks for the updates regarding the production changes for the tips and the updated firmware. Do you have any info regarding the re-design of the o-ring in the handles because they were coming unseated and/or binding the tip cartridges that some users experienced?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mavu on June 20, 2018, 11:23:02 am
I wanted to give you an update on the status of the ADS200. We are still making some changes to the firmware and examining the tips that came back from Mike's Radio Repair. We will also e taking a detailed look at dolivas27's Station & tips. I'll get back to you with an update soon. Just be assured that if you have any issues with the ADS200, we are committed to making it right for you. Thanks for your patience.

Hi,

I managed to get my hands on a early unit, and it probably still has the early firmware.
Is there a way to see the firmware version?
Will I be able to update the firmware somehow?

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 20, 2018, 11:27:29 am
I managed to get my hands on a early unit, and it probably still has the early firmware.
Is there a way to see the firmware version?
Will I be able to update the firmware somehow?

Read the first pdf it tells you exactly what to do if you want a firmware update kit.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mavu on June 20, 2018, 03:42:41 pm
I managed to get my hands on a early unit, and it probably still has the early firmware.
Is there a way to see the firmware version?
Will I be able to update the firmware somehow?

Read the first pdf it tells you exactly what to do if you want a firmware update kit.

Thanks! I didn't expect anything to be in there that was not in the post.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on June 20, 2018, 07:10:39 pm
Awesome news Aaron and appreciate the update. I imagine Pace is working overtime manufacturing tips and will sell them like hotcakes once the ball starts gaining momentum again.

Today I got around to cleaning and loading my Pace fiber cleaning tool. Along with the Pace tip tool these have to be my top two favorite soldering accessories of all time.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=459433;image)

(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2dha69z.jpg)

I just ordered one of these Pace fiber tools from TEquiptment in NJ. What is that rope like material? Doesn’t look like the plastic type scratch pen fibers, more like a fire proof rope material. Like the material welders use.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on June 20, 2018, 08:44:01 pm
What is that rope like material?
Looks like heat resistant braided cable sleeving(*), cut to length, bundled and held together using black shrink tubing.

(*) the kind of sleeving you can find protecting the wires from the heating element inside a soldering iron.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on June 20, 2018, 10:59:05 pm
I just ordered one of these Pace fiber tools from TEquiptment in NJ. What is that rope like material? Doesn’t look like the plastic type scratch pen fibers, more like a fire proof rope material. Like the material welders use.

The tools about 8mm wide at the opening. Not sure what the braid is made from exactly, it's like a fine woven cloth. To touch it feels like a soft bristled tooth brush with less flex.

It has fairly low abrasive properties but works well at wiping hot crap away. I just tested it buffing up some lightly oxidized nickel and it took me about 20 brisk strokes, way more aggressive than I would on an iron tip. So it does have abrasive qualities but it's largely up to the user. As I mentioned before you can use it on turrets, eyelets etc, no problem.

Edit: Ignore the gap in the aluminum, I haven't closed it properly as I've had the fibers out a few times looking at them. They are a snug fit in the tool, which is what you want.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=460261;image)

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on June 21, 2018, 03:08:40 pm
For those interested, I placed an order for a unit with the setback stand through Tequipment. A sales rep told me Pace will be shipping the units to Tequipment on June 29, so I'm not expecting to get mine until the 2nd week of July.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on June 21, 2018, 04:15:37 pm
Aaron,

thanks for the updates regarding the production changes for the tips and the updated firmware. Do you have any info regarding the re-design of the o-ring in the handles because they were coming unseated and/or binding the tip cartridges that some users experienced?

The O-Rings were not the problem. It was the machining of the handpiece metal itself. A few of these handpieces got out before we resolved the problem, which has now been taken care of. All TD-200's are now 100% inspected. If you are having issues with the O-Rings, you probably have one of the bad handpieces. Please send a request for replacement to acaplan[AT]paceworldwide[dot]com and I'll get you a new TD-200 handpiece.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on June 21, 2018, 04:20:21 pm

I just ordered one of these Pace fiber tools from TEquiptment in NJ. What is that rope like material? Doesn’t look like the plastic type scratch pen fibers, more like a fire proof rope material. Like the material welders use.

The Fiber Tool is actually made of a coated & woven fiberglass that is relatively low abrasive.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on June 21, 2018, 04:36:08 pm
Great to hear everything is resolved! I'm excited to get a new station.  :)

BTW that fiber tool reminds me of a chalk holder the teacher used at school. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the idea? I'd never seen one until someone posted it here. Is that to clean the iron or the PCB?

 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on June 21, 2018, 04:51:34 pm
Great to hear everything is resolved! I'm excited to get a new station.  :)

BTW that fiber tool reminds me of a chalk holder the teacher used at school. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the idea? I'd never seen one until someone posted it here. Is that to clean the iron or the PCB?

 

It IS a chalk holder (and an expensive one at that)! It's definitely designed to clean large surface mount tips, but you can use it on any tip. Sometimes if you are using a thermal tweezer with large square or bladed tips (to remove SOICs, PLCCs or large QFPs), the shaped tips have to be cleaned and then retinned with fresh solder. These tips are so large (over 1x1" each) that the normal brass wool or sponge won't effectively reach the inner working surfaces of the tip. So you used the Fiber Brush to wipe the excess solder off the inside of the tip. 

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on June 22, 2018, 06:36:37 pm
Great to hear everything is resolved! I'm excited to get a new station.  :)

BTW that fiber tool reminds me of a chalk holder the teacher used at school. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the idea? I'd never seen one until someone posted it here. Is that to clean the iron or the PCB?

 

It IS a chalk holder (and an expensive one at that)! It's definitely designed to clean large surface mount tips, but you can use it on any tip. Sometimes if you are using a thermal tweezer with large square or bladed tips (to remove SOICs, PLCCs or large QFPs), the shaped tips have to be cleaned and then retinned with fresh solder. These tips are so large (over 1x1" each) that the normal brass wool or sponge won't effectively reach the inner working surfaces of the tip. So you used the Fiber Brush to wipe the excess solder off the inside of the tip. 

Aaron

The price at $19 US, was not too bad the extra $8 shipping at TEquipment, a bit much. But I just got an update email from them, won’t ship for a MONTH! The product link does not show “out of stock”, I assume this is not their normal business shipping policy.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on June 22, 2018, 06:48:11 pm

The price at $19 US, was not too bad the extra $8 shipping at TEquipment, a bit much. But I just got an update email from them, won’t ship for a MONTH! The product link does not show “out of stock”, I assume this is not their normal business shipping policy.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/)

The default for Tequipment is out of stock. If it's in stock, then it will show how many.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on June 22, 2018, 06:51:47 pm

The price at $19 US, was not too bad the extra $8 shipping at TEquipment, a bit much. But I just got an update email from them, won’t ship for a MONTH! The product link does not show “out of stock”, I assume this is not their normal business shipping policy.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/1100-0232-p1/Soldering-Accessories/)

The default for Tequipment is out of stock. If it's in stock, then it will show how many.

Thanks, I guess I could have ordered it directly from China myself and saved $$$. Oh well....
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mavu on June 23, 2018, 07:10:29 am
Hi

I managed to get my paws on a ADS200 with the auto sleep stand and I'm thinking about making a little video review.

If anyone has any specific questions or things you want tested, I'll see if I can do them in a video.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on June 23, 2018, 11:11:51 am
If anyone has any specific questions or things you want tested, I'll see if I can do them in a video.
Inside pics please..  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on June 23, 2018, 03:21:31 pm
Hi

I managed to get my paws on a ADS200 with the auto sleep stand and I'm thinking about making a little video review.

If anyoneme has any specific questions or things you want tested, I'll see if I can do them in a video.

I'm wondering which firmware your station has?

Doesn't need to be in the video, but I'd like to know if the tip of the iron is at the same ground potential as the GND pin of the setback switch mini din connector. Thus confirming my theory that Setback can be activated by merely touching the tip of the iron to a single conductor wire connected to the SWITCH input pin of the mini din connector.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: bsudbrink on June 23, 2018, 07:08:12 pm
I hope that no one minds this post as this thread seems to have the attention of most Pace heads...

I first got into Pace when, through a trade, I got a lifetime supply of SensaTemp handpieces and tips (first pic).  So, as good deals came up or budget allowed I have acquired other stations and handpieces.  My lab has been exclusively Pace for a number of years.  Anyway, I have recently come to the conclusion that I have much more than a lifetime supply of these Sodr-Pens.  I still have 17 unused and none of the four I use regularly show any signs of failing.  Among the few SensaTemp items I have never managed to pick up, I'd like to get a ThermoJet and a couple of nozzles and maybe a foot pedal.  I've never used either but would like to give them a try.  If someone would like to trade either of those (in good shape) for three or four brand new Sodr-Pens, please let me know.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on June 23, 2018, 08:13:06 pm
I hope that no one minds this post as this thread seems to have the attention of most Pace heads...

I first got into Pace when, through a trade, I got a lifetime supply of SensaTemp handpieces and tips (first pic).  So, as good deals came up or budget allowed I have acquired other stations and handpieces.  My lab has been exclusively Pace for a number of years.  Anyway, I have recently come to the conclusion that I have much more than a lifetime supply of these Sodr-Pens.  I still have 17 unused and none of the four I use regularly show any signs of failing.  Among the few SensaTemp items I have never managed to pick up, I'd like to get a ThermoJet and a couple of nozzles and maybe a foot pedal.  I've never used either but would like to give them a try.  If someone would like to trade either of those (in good shape) for three or four brand new Sodr-Pens, please let me know.
No prob, and nice stash.. Maybe get additional traction by posting in the buy/sell/wanted area too  :-//
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on June 26, 2018, 12:02:37 am
To All EEVBloggers:

From: Aaron Caplan, PACE Worldwide

Finally, an update from PACE on the status of the ADS200 & Tips!

First of all, I’d like to thank you all for you for your patience and support, as we certainly were premature in our production predictions. I am so sorry for the delay and lack of update information, but it looks like we’re finally ready to reggae!

PACE Worldwide is happy to report that we are back in production on the ADS200 Soldering Systems and AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges! As many of you already know, out of an abundance of caution, we had suspended production 2 months ago as a small percentage of our AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridges did not meet our exacting standards for quality. This issue has now been resolved and does not affect any current ADS200 Systems already in the field.

Please see the attached pdf Memo, which explains every thing you need to know about the ADS200. I have also attached current price lists in 3 different currencies.

Again, I thank you for your patience. Feel free to contact me directly at acaplan [AT] paceworldwide [DOT] com if you have questions or need additional information.

Best,

Aaron


Woohoo this is fantastic news.. i got a 1-0 humming right along with one tip.. at least it was a multi purpose useful tip lol

ill have to msg for a new chip when i get a chance.. ill also have to try out my hand piece once my full assortment of tips get here.. i havent had reason to pull and insert with only the one tip :p
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: drojf on June 30, 2018, 05:21:59 am
Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)

"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).

EDIT: I think Mektronics is more expensive than other places, we'll see how the prices go. But if you were desperate to buy one right now, you could.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knapik on June 30, 2018, 09:39:45 am
Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)

"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).

Ouch.... I was hoping that it would be in line with the Tequipment price at ~400 Aussie, but I certainly can't justify $600. Sounds like I might have to wait until it goes on sale one day then.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on June 30, 2018, 11:45:46 am
Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)

"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).
Yes, I noticed that a few days ago.
AUD$597.15 (inc GST) ~ USD$442.

That's the "Australia Tax" at work.

I'm waiting for Oritech and Upton to list it, to see what they will be asking for it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on June 30, 2018, 06:13:52 pm
Australians - Mektronics now have the ADS200 (with instant setback stand) listed here: https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html (https://www.mektronics.com.au/soldering-rework/pace-stations/pace-ads200-station-230-vac-with-instant-setback-tool-stand-8007-0581.html)

"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).

EDIT: I think Mektronics is more expensive than other places, we'll see how the prices go. But if you were desperate to buy one right now, you could.
IMHO, the new models price drop would make some distributors nervous about pricing a new 120w station under their current inventory (eg: Mektronics has the 90watt ST-50 selling for slightly less). One would hope when AU vendors reduce inventory investments on the older ST series, they'd be comfortable enough to drop the ADS200 down closer to MSRP.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 01, 2018, 12:41:53 am
"Availability: 1-2 weeks delivery", $596 AUD (their site lists $542 excluding GST).

Yes, I noticed that a few days ago.
AUD$597.15 (inc GST) ~ USD$442.

That's the "Australia Tax" at work.

Ouch, I thought Quebec was bad!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 01, 2018, 01:05:59 am
Ouch, I thought Quebec was bad!
Yes, and don't forget, the Aussie dollar is close to parity with the Canadian dollar.
So AUD$597 = CAD$581
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 01, 2018, 11:30:46 am
Baltersice reviewed the new Pace in the second half of his latest video (starts ~4:30) with some serious 01005 soldering..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 01, 2018, 01:46:50 pm
 :-DD  As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: gabinetex on July 01, 2018, 05:28:41 pm
Well, here in Europe the only place selling it have it at 355€, while the JBC BT2BWA is 289€.
https://www.welectron.com/Soldering-Stations (https://www.welectron.com/Soldering-Stations)
So the JBC:
-Is 65€ Cheaper
-Has a rotary encoder for the temp (I like my knobs)
-The iron going to sleep when in the holder is not an optional Extra.

I fail to see how is this a "JBC killer", apart from the JBC tips being more expensive (25€ vs 15€).





Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 01, 2018, 06:20:25 pm
Well, here in Europe the only place selling it have it at 355€, while the JBC BT2BWA is 289€.
https://www.welectron.com/Soldering-Stations (https://www.welectron.com/Soldering-Stations)
So the JBC:
-Is 65€ Cheaper
-Has a rotary encoder for the temp (I like my knobs)
-The iron going to sleep when in the holder is not an optional Extra.

I fail to see how is this a "JBC killer", apart from the JBC tips being more expensive (25€ vs 15€).

The Pace ADS200 list price is 225€ with standard stand and 250€ with instant setback stand, so not sure on their prices but as mentioned a few posts back they might be clearing stock. Even without a setback stand the iron can still go to sleep in the standard stand.

The JBC you're comparing is an analog station, if you think it's better value and love the dial etc go for it. Here is the thread on the JBC BT2BWA (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/anyone-know-of-a-teardown-or-review-of-jbc-bt-2bwa/).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 01, 2018, 06:22:42 pm
:-DD  As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..

I watched Marco/Baltersices previous video a day ago and wondered if he was doing a Pace ADS200 review. He said something about keeping "Pace" with all the progress in the industry :).

I think him making a station is a waste of time now. The effort it would take to make a decent chassis was enough to put me off. As I see it the Unisolders purpose (a low cost way to run a high end iron) was really a hole filled by the ADS200.

I've got a feeling he sold the Weller to offset the cost of buying an ADS200 as well, I mean you don't sell your workhorse without backup. He should dump the Chinese one as well, it looks more ridiculous every time I compare the two.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 01, 2018, 06:50:10 pm
The Pace should become popular because of the low cost of ownership and consumables. Although there may be a market for a 3rd party front panel/control PCB with a fancier UI.

Unisolder must be too difficult for a newbie to build if experienced engineers say it's not easy. Most who want to build them probably don't yet have the skills or equipment to build them. That's why they're looking to build something cheap. Would be far more popular if preassembled PCBs were available.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 02, 2018, 03:02:29 am
Marco's size comparison's better than my edited pic.. Pace almost never has strain relief issues, maybe JBC can learn a little (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/jbc-ad2700-not-heating/).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on July 02, 2018, 11:39:26 pm
Just got my replacement rom chip $$ thanks pace!

That was a nice video by Marco.. i got that same andostar, wonder what that uv optic he bought for it was
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 03, 2018, 05:12:42 am
:-DD  As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Best line in the whole episode. :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: baltersice on July 03, 2018, 07:03:00 am
wonder what that uv optic he bought for it was
Polarization filters https://www.ebay.com/itm/282571649127 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/282571649127)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 03, 2018, 05:22:00 pm
:-DD  As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Best line in the whole episode. :)
I split my gut laughing at "Oh... not that" (the glowing mega-iron)
https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723)

*edit: In 2-days this got over 22,000 views.. I hope Welectron understands video editing IS work and gives him a fair discount.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Elasia on July 03, 2018, 09:49:45 pm
:-DD  As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..
Best line in the whole episode. :)
I split my gut laughing at "Oh... not that" (the glowing mega-iron)
https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=723)

*edit: In 2-days this got over 22,000 views.. I hope Welectron understands video editing IS work and gives him a fair discount.

I busted up at this bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg&feature=youtu.be&t=830 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erKCA71q7cg&feature=youtu.be&t=830)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 05, 2018, 07:17:20 am
Was going to order directly from the Pace website.
USD$280 for shipping to Australia.
LOL!!!!!

That's for one unit, not a dozen or so.
I don't think so.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 05, 2018, 07:51:46 am
What's that, a fisher price? Is it for kids? Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on July 05, 2018, 10:49:16 am
Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
Attached to the floating heatsink with a old fashioned slotted screw and nut. Manufacturing can't be very efficient...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 05, 2018, 11:30:58 am
Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!
Attached to the floating heatsink with a old fashioned slotted screw and nut. Manufacturing can't be very efficient...
There are a lot of US armed forces and adjunct industries that use Pace equipment, that's why the best part (their tip ecosystem) has historically been so high in quality. On the 7805, I would imagine that Pace would make military sales points sounding like, "see a basic 7805 that you can even buy in Timbuktu runs the whole show" and, "you can swap most critical parts with just a basic screwdriver" or "just carry some PLCC's in an antistat bag, and you can swap the whole dang computer in less than 60 seconds".

Did you notice the costly Class-2 split bobbin transformer? or the red LED's? (for many years an aviation standard, now changing to Green/Blue. ( see: http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/issues/35_10/features/Cockpit-Lighting-Choices_11065-1.html (http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/issues/35_10/features/Cockpit-Lighting-Choices_11065-1.html) )

Take a look again, the rest of the board is mostly SMD. When he said "the main board's weirdness knows no bounds", I thought the clash of old world and new world tech had to be some kind of military sales pitch.
https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=792 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=792)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 05, 2018, 12:52:06 pm
The KISS principle could be applied here. If it aint broke don't fix it. I think over-engineered products tend to fail more frequently. ie Toyota has far fewer electrical problems than BMW or Mercedes.
 
I wish I still had that old Maytag washer. You know, the one that needed new belts every 10 years?

BTW, I once asked my doctor what he thought of the health-grades website. He told me people either write great reviews or bad ones. But they usually don't write about average experiences.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 05, 2018, 12:58:11 pm
What's that, a fisher price? Is it for kids? Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!

Pace is quite conservative on aesthetics and if you compare it against the Intelliheat series you will see where they are going. But ultimately it's a production station and not a huge departure from the military like design used in previous models, including having the 7805 in that exact same spot.

In terms of convenience having up to 120W in a high quality station, moving to the aluminum iron for operator comfort, improving heating control etc, lowering the cost of ownership, seems quite a step forward.

The alternatives at $200 seem to be anemically soldered designs with tips over twice the cost, half the performance and questionable work life, so yeah easy math for me. Times change, now everything plastic at that price looks cheap and nasty.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 05, 2018, 01:05:13 pm
What's that, a fisher price? Is it for kids? Ohhh, top notch 7805 in there, well done Pace!

That is an insult to Hakko. Noone can beat Hakko on Fisher Price user experience.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 05, 2018, 03:15:20 pm
I think Pace is more like the Tonka Trucks of the 60's  :-DD

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 07, 2018, 02:46:37 am
In 6-days Marco Reps got >25,000 views and 359 comments on the Pace, I think he'll pass 100k subscribers by years-end.
(...unless Dave nabs him with an editing position in Sydney  :-+ )   I think a video chat with him and Dave would be fun.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 07, 2018, 03:04:29 pm
In 6-days Marco Reps got >25,000 views and 359 comments on the Pace, I think he'll pass 100k subscribers by years-end.

I'll stay on the conservative side of 100k. I don't have the full stats but he had approx 8% subscriber growth last month.

I like his channel, very entertaining. Looking forward to seeing if he does a display mod, how it improves his soldering skills :).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on July 09, 2018, 05:45:28 pm
My Tequipment ship date keeps slipping. It was originally July 6, then July 13. Now it's July 17. I'm not expecting that one to hold...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 09, 2018, 07:22:30 pm
My Tequipment ship date keeps slipping. It was originally July 6, then July 13. Now it's July 17. I'm not expecting that one to hold...

Tequipment typically shows stock numbers on their website which is a good indicator when they are about to deliver. What tips did you end up ordering?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on July 10, 2018, 02:40:10 pm
My Tequipment ship date keeps slipping. It was originally July 6, then July 13. Now it's July 17. I'm not expecting that one to hold...

Tequipment typically shows stock numbers on their website which is a good indicator when they are about to deliver. What tips did you end up ordering?

That I know. I was talking to a sales rep who said they only had 9 units on order that would arrive 6/29, so I placed my order to secure one. I ordered the 1/64" bent conical, 3/64" and 1/32" 30deg chisel, and 1/8" UHP chisel. I use the bent conical 95% of the time with my Hakko.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on July 11, 2018, 01:46:27 am
:-DD  As a side benefit: Pace prevents a lot of unnecessary suffering in the stock photography business..

The chick working on the mobo while incurring 3rd degree burns just cracks me up....
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: hrbngr on July 11, 2018, 02:21:52 am
I'm really hoping a few more thread followers buy this unit so that we can get some feedback on tip selection, usage, pros and cons. Also, TEquipment might have decent stocking levels on the station w/ISB and a good tip selection by the fall. Do they do a Black Friday Sale or is the eevblog discount still gonna beat that?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 11, 2018, 01:19:23 pm
At least TEquipment have some of the standard tool stand variants in stock.

Australian retailers can't even place an order with Pace.   |O
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 11, 2018, 10:03:39 pm
Looks like Pace is now moving to Aluminum irons on their existing Intelliheat series stations as well. They have a new TD-100A (https://paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/soldering-irons/td100a-aluminum-tipheater-cartridge-iron-with-tool-stand) iron which will come standard on the MBT 350 and 351 stations and be compatible with select ST and WJS stations that took the TD-100.

(https://paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_thumb/td100a%20and%20standard%20cubby%20smaller%20web.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: masiman on July 12, 2018, 01:17:57 am
First post.  Looking to try as hobby with my kids on keyboards and Arduino.  I am new to soldering and am trying to find the differences between the ADS200 and some of the, I assume, older PACE stations (ST's and WSJ100).  Pro/Con?

Apologies if too generic, noob.  Hints to searches beyond 'PACE ADS200 vs' and youtube reviews, surprisingly few on the WSJ100.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: masiman on July 12, 2018, 01:29:51 am

Apologies if too generic, noob.  Hints to searches beyond 'PACE ADS200 vs' and youtube reviews, surprisingly few on the WSJ100.

...I think I found what I was looking for in the earlier pages of this thread.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on July 12, 2018, 03:11:52 am
The pros for the ADS200 vs other Pace stations are:
1. Calibration is not required when changing tips. The WJS100 and MBT will detect tip removal and indicate that you need to perform calibration (by changing its LED from green to amber).
2. Availability of both compact Standard blue cartridges (1130- series), and high heat capacity Ultra Performance blue cartridges (1131- series), both able to heat at 120 watts.
The WJS100 is only compatible with the High Power gold cartridges (1128- series), a smaller selection.
The other Intelliheat stations are compatible with the Standard (1124- series) and long-life Diamond coated (1126- series) black cartridges, which is the largest selection.
3. more attractive price

Cons:
1. Unlike the Intelliheat ST, MBT, and WJS100 stations, the ADS200 can (currently) only be used with the TD200 soldering iron handpiece. In particular, it is not compatible with any of the Pace tweezer tools like the MT-100, which the WJS100 is able to use. The MBT stations with vacuum and hot-air support can use the widest range of tools, including older SensaTemp tools with a cable adapter.

The other tools you can use with a ST or MBT are:
TD100 cartridge soldering iron
PS90 tip soldering iron
MT100 mini tweezer
TT65 ThermoTweez large tweezer for large SMD components
TP100 ThermoPik tweezer with vacuum pickup
TP65 ThermoPik large tweezer with vacuum pickup
TJ85 ThermoJet air pencil
TJ70 ThermoJet large air pencil
SX100 SodrXTractor desoldering tool

See https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ProductOverviewEng_F.pdf (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ProductOverviewEng_F.pdf)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 12, 2018, 03:15:20 am
Apologies if too generic, noob.  Hints to searches beyond 'PACE ADS200 vs' and youtube reviews, surprisingly few on the WSJ100.
...I think I found what I was looking for in the earlier pages of this thread.

The Pace WJS100 is the older Intelliheat series. Unless you already own one it's more beneficial and lighter on the pocket to own a new Pace ADS200 Accudrive.

The ADS200 is a robust professional level station and would be perfect for kids to learn on with supervision. It has easy to replace tips, a low "tip to work" distance, plus a reasonably short handle so it's suitable for both kids and adults.

From Paces track record they don't compromise on quality, they still manufacture their products in the USA and are known to last a long time. The tip selection is currently about 40 different tips and will increase if demand requires it. I've taught absolute beginners and I recommend to start on one tip and master the basics and work with more tips as you get used to them, three or four tips covers most situations. People typically limit tip spending to their budget. Hope that helps.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/teaching-to-solder-how-young-is-too-young/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/teaching-to-solder-how-young-is-too-young/)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 12, 2018, 05:31:49 am
Just a couple of other things. There is a "Temperature Limits" and "Password" feature that can be used to prevent other users from turning up the temperature to ridiculous settings. As some of the finer tips are quite sharp it's not suitable to leave them laying around or in the iron stand (pointing up) where children are reaching across or in an area where they play.

https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_Operation_Manual%20_%2013-Apr-2018.pdf (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_Operation_Manual%20_%2013-Apr-2018.pdf)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: masiman on July 12, 2018, 03:02:20 pm
Wow, thanks all!!  I appreciate the responses to a noob.  I think the ASD200 will probably be overkill for us, but I do really enjoy nice tools.  I will be placing order with TE.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 12, 2018, 11:49:15 pm
Wow, thanks all!!  I appreciate the responses to a noob.  I think the ASD200 will probably be overkill for us, but I do really enjoy nice tools.  I will be placing order with TE.

No problem, personally I don't think an overkill. Just the best choice for value for money. On the subject of tips again you will need to buy some with the station, make sure you add them to your order.
 
I took a little action shot photo here to help you out. Proper technique is to size the tip close to the size of joint (a land on the pcb) you are soldering. It's a personal choice and dependent on what you are soldering but here is a quick guide.

A chisel is a good choice for a through hole joint and the 3/32” 2.38mm tip (shown in image) looks a good fit for the left and center joints, in a pinch it can be used for slightly larger joints. For the right side surface mount joint something half the size would be more appropriate. For very fine surface mount joints look at even smaller tips. A bent conical/chisel is useful especially for approaching surface mount joints from the side.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=475157;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=475859;image)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: masiman on July 13, 2018, 12:44:30 pm
I ordered the ADS200 with setback stand from TE yesterday. They are currently out of stock but should be in soon.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 14, 2018, 12:03:22 am
I ordered the ADS200 with setback stand from TE yesterday. They are currently out of stock but should be in soon.

The 1/32" 0.80mm tip is considered a fairly fine tip. For working on your old auto electronics and equipment I would go to a 3/32” 2.38mm chisel tip and even a 1/8" 3.18mm chisel tip in addition. Those three tips are a good start, and as I said in my previous post just size the tip to the joint.

Going larger than 1/8" 3.18mm may be the best choice for soldered lugs and connections, it all depends on what size you're doing. The decision to pick the standard or the higher wattage ultra performance tips (https://paceworldwide.com/ADS200/) is up to your personal preference. When you order check you are using the correct prefix for which type you want (1130 or 1131).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: masiman on July 14, 2018, 12:59:00 am
The 1/32" 0.80mm tip is considered a fairly fine tip. For working on your old auto electronics and equipment I would go to a 3/32” 2.38mm chisel tip and even a 1/8" 3.18mm chisel tip in addition. Those three tips are a good start, and as I said in my previous post just size the tip to the joint.

Going larger than 1/8" 3.18mm may be the best choice for soldered lugs and connections, it all depends on what size you're doing. The decision to pick the standard or the higher wattage ultra performance tips (https://paceworldwide.com/ADS200/) is up to your personal preference. When you order check you are using the correct prefix for which type you want (1130 or 1131).

Thank you Shock.  I will call tomorrow and see if they can add to my unshipped order.  I am guessing the standard tips(1130) will be perfectly adequate for what we will do in the near future.

There is also solder and  flux in the order as I pm'd you.  The sales tech explained to me about the benefits of using lead vs lead-free in exposed environments like a vehicle.  I understood it when he said it but I can't remember which is better.  No worries though, more fun research and learning.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 14, 2018, 03:25:58 am
Thank you Shock.  I will call tomorrow and see if they can add to my unshipped order.  I am guessing the standard tips(1130) will be perfectly adequate for what we will do in the near future.

It's your choice, the standard tips are plenty powerful enough for most work, if you use the correct size tip. I ordered 3 out of my 12 tips (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1465523/#msg1465523) ultra performance, mainly to get a couple of beastly sized tips for soldering heatsinks to large ground planes.

There is also solder and  flux in the order as I pm'd you.  The sales tech explained to me about the benefits of using lead vs lead-free in exposed environments like a vehicle.  I understood it when he said it but I can't remember which is better.  No worries though, more fun research and learning.

I do rework/repair with lead, and since my wife is not an RoHS inspector I'm good. If you are an employee or producing a product etc, lead free is the way to go. But personal preference otherwise.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 15, 2018, 02:10:48 am
I've just ordered an ADS 200 w/ISB hand piece stand. Only desire I'd like to see soon would be a "chip tip" to work with 0201 component removal, or even a well designed tip for 01005 parts, however I'll address that eventually directly with Pace. Very eager to test out the proposed new tweezer design, but I'm going to just wait and see when Pace will get around to releasing them.

I still intend to own and operate my JBC CD station, so I'll try to find the time to create some sort of comparative review between the two. My work demands shift dramatically, so I'll need to see when an open time will permit. I actually work with quite a bit of IPC Class 3 J-STD-001 operations (along with A-610, 7711, 7721, etc.) so depending on time and work demand constraints, I may just make simple comparative observations in the respective rework environment.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 15, 2018, 03:47:16 am
I've just ordered an ADS 200 w/ISB hand piece stand. Only desire I'd like to see soon would be a "chip tip" to work with 0201 component removal, or even a well designed tip for 01005 parts, however I'll address that eventually directly with Pace. Very eager to test out the proposed new tweezer design, but I'm going to just wait and see when Pace will get around to releasing them.

You mean similar to the 0201 Chip Removal Tip for the TD-100 iron (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips/0201-chip-removal-tip-0534)?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 15, 2018, 04:10:19 am
You mean similar to the 0201 Chip Removal Tip for the TD-100 iron (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td100-smt-and-specialty-tips/0201-chip-removal-tip-0534)?

Exactly. I've used these tip shapes with several irons and systems I've owned over several years because of very tight confines where no other tool would work efficiently and without damaging/inadvertently reflowing nearby components. I currently use similar tip types with my JBC T245 handle and removal has been very quick, precise, and without perceptible damage.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knotlogic on July 16, 2018, 01:30:39 pm
Probably more a question for Aaron, but what's the difference between the bevel tip (1130-0011-P1) and the chisel (or conical) tips?  The picture on the website looks similar to the conical tips, but I always thought bevel tips were the same as chisels.

Also do the Pace Miniwave tips have that little depression on the face of the tip?

Was really tempted to pick one up earlier this year because I thought my Metal had finally died on me.  Fortunately it appears to have been just the handpiece.  Still tempted though.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: masiman on July 16, 2018, 02:03:12 pm
I added the other tips to the order, all 1130’s.  The 0013 was out of stock but I should be fine with the other four in the short term
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 16, 2018, 02:50:39 pm
Probably more a question for Aaron, but what's the difference between the bevel tip (1130-0011-P1) and the chisel (or conical) tips?  The picture on the website looks similar to the conical tips, but I always thought bevel tips were the same as chisels
A bevel is a conical tip that's had the pointy end cut off on an angle. Makes a single oval face, where a chisel/screwdriver shape has 2 flat sides.

(https://i.imgur.com/8laoDSX.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 16, 2018, 09:41:29 pm
Probably more a question for Aaron, but what's the difference between the bevel tip (1130-0011-P1) and the chisel (or conical) tips?  The picture on the website looks similar to the conical tips, but I always thought bevel tips were the same as chisels.

A Bevel has a face cut across the tip. Chisels have two faces. Conical tips are just a taper. The 1130-0011-P1 has a 60 degree face cut across, this older image from the TD-100 series shows it a little clearer.

(https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_list/4-0011.JPG)

Also do the Pace Miniwave tips have that little depression on the face of the tip?

Yes you can see it on the 0.083"/3.05mm Miniwave, 1130-0032-P1 and in this video.

(https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_thumb/1130-00032-P1%20Final.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNp0pASpgOI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNp0pASpgOI)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 17, 2018, 12:46:53 pm
Apparently Dave is getting too close to his Pace  :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FrVOXitrVk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FrVOXitrVk)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knotlogic on July 17, 2018, 02:28:38 pm
Thanks!  Now to wait for the reviews.  :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 17, 2018, 04:05:31 pm
Also do the Pace Miniwave tips have that little depression on the face of the tip?

Hi knotlogic,

See Shock's reply to your question about bevel vs. chisel tips, as he explains it well.

Miniwave tips are specifically designed for drag soldering across multiple leads. The spoon-shaped "depression" is key to the way any Miniwave (also called hoof or drag soldering) tip works. You fill the cavity with solder and it acts like a quill pen, replenishing the solder as it drags across multiple leads. A bevel type tip will also work well for drag soldering, but you'll have to add solder much more often. We call it the Miniwave because the tip acts as a miniature wave soldering machine.

By the way, PACE is the originator of Miniwave technology, which was accidentally discovered in the late 80's by one of our applications engineers. He was experimenting with drag soldering using a beveled tip, and found that a spoon shape allowed him to solder 4-sided QFPs and PLCCs (new at that time) on all 4-sides without adding additional solder to the tip. The Miniwave cavity was quickly adopted by Metcal and ERSA, and later by most other soldering iron manufacturers. Too bad we didn't try to patent it!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 17, 2018, 06:16:41 pm
I have one for my Ersa and it’s great. They are not only good for SMD, but also for other things where you want to prevent excess solder from collecting, such as tinning small stranded wire.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 18, 2018, 11:30:02 am
So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.

The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2018, 11:54:16 am
TLDL;
It's not nearly as good thermally as the JBC CD-B, good 20+ degC difference in capability at low temp, I was very surprised. So much for "delivers unsurpassed thermal performance"  :-//
So no JBC killer, unless price is your sole driving factor.
Well built though and pretty sexy.
The display has some random number and overshoot weirdness.

(video may not be processed yet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYQpCkCHkIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYQpCkCHkIs)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 12:25:28 pm
Sounds like crap, then. But that's OK, they can't make 'em anyways!  :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: glarsson on July 18, 2018, 12:59:13 pm
Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 01:07:16 pm
 :palm:

It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly, decode keypresses, and update a display. And that layout, like Dave says, is rubbish.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2018, 01:11:19 pm
Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?

Yes, I found it a bit annoying actually, unlike the JBC one which you don't even really notice. Probably worth saving the $30 and going without it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 01:12:51 pm
So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.

The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.

As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:

www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors)

Or you can buy direct from PACE's website:

ADS200 with Standard Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)

ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2018, 01:15:15 pm
:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly

I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2018, 01:18:04 pm
So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.

The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.

As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:

www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors)


Tequipment have stock at least.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 18, 2018, 01:20:12 pm
I think the first version of the firmware had a more stable display, as in, you didn't see the fluctuation as often, so I prefer the latest version even if it does show the overshoot a bit more and is a bit more jumpy.  I find that better than such a stable display where it never leaves the set temp because you don't really see what is going on with the tip.

Dave - did you also check the tip temp of the JBC during the test, it is probably bang on, but that would have been nice to verify as well since we are doing a low temp test.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 01:25:59 pm
:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly

I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.

You are correct. Like all other soldering iron manufacturers (including JBC, Hakko, Ersa and Weller), we use temperature display dampening software. This is because if you saw the real-time temperature fluctuations at the sensor level, it might throw you into an epileptic fit with all the temperature variation shown on the display.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 01:31:23 pm
:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly

I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.

Then why does it appear to run "cold" with the same power as the JBC? Something's off at the P term seems to me.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 18, 2018, 01:33:04 pm
Tequipment have stock at least.
Nope!
Not even TEquipment currently have the ISB model (albeit 120VAC version) either, hence my original question.
They show 10 units with the standard stand, and no ISB units.

Anyway... after months of waiting, I'm now considering the JBC.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 18, 2018, 01:50:25 pm
As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:

www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors (http://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors)

Or you can buy direct from PACE's website:

ADS200 with Standard Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)

ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200 (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200)
Thanks Aaron.
I've been across everything since April, and was aware of the issues.
Tried ordering directly from Pace last week, but the price comes up as $0.00
That's a bargain!

But USD$280 for freight to Australia?
Don't think so!

:-(

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 02:00:09 pm
I've been across everything since April, and was aware of the issues.
Tried ordering directly from Pace last week, but the price comes up as $0.00
That's a bargain!

But USD$280 for freight to Australia?
Don't think so!

:-(

LOL ... yes, we just put the ADS200 webpage up last week, so we may not have entered the pricing at that time. It's up now though. Concerning the $280 shipping, I think you might consider purchasing through our Australian distributor Mektronics as we are restricted as to how we can ship overseas (only Fedex and UPS, I believe). This is because we sell direct as a convenience to the customer but we much prefer you buy through an authorized distributor. So you'll probably get a better shipping deal from Mektronics:

MEKTRONICS Australia
Website: www.mektronics.com.au (http://www.mektronics.com.au)
Email: sales@mektronics.com.au

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 18, 2018, 02:10:25 pm
The other question I have as well is how do we know we are comparing apples to apples - setting two units to 270 could mean two entirely different things depending on the way they regulate temperature.  One unit might consider 270 the average temperature with temps going higher than that and the other unit might consider 270 the maximum temperature and it tolerates being pulled down below that, but is designed to not go much above it so its average is actually lower than what it is set for.  How could one test for tip temp during use to get a graph of actual performance - that would be the final word i would think!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on July 18, 2018, 02:18:14 pm
Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.


I'm guessing we won't hear anything for a bit until they get their ducks in a row. It looks like I pulled the trigger too early buying a unit. Tequipment just shipped the ISB, so I'm probably going to eat the shipping costs and return it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on July 18, 2018, 02:21:06 pm
Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.


I'm guessing we won't hear anything for a bit until they get their ducks in a row. It looks like I pulled the trigger too early buying a unit. Tequipment just shipped the ISB, so I'm probably going to eat the shipping costs and return it.

If their firmware is like their TO-220 placement, you guys are in trouble. The amount of time this is taking you'd think they're trying to install a web browser in there. It's a soldering iron. That's their main product.  |O
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 18, 2018, 02:30:54 pm
The other question I have as well is how do we know we are comparing apples to apples - setting two units to 270 could mean two entirely different things depending on the way they regulate temperature.  One unit might consider 270 the average temperature with temps going higher than that and the other unit might consider 270 the maximum temperature and it tolerates being pulled down below that, but is designed to not go much above it so its average is actually lower than what it is set for.  How could one test for tip temp during use to get a graph of actual performance - that would be the final word i would think!
Marco Reps' review suggested the sensor may be further away from the tip, so this may explain the pace (no pun intended) at which they decided to recover in software. He noted no overshoots, just moderate and accurate recovery. Perhaps Pace could offer a menu option for aggressive thermal management, but that could end-up decreasing the famous life of the Pace tip-cladding.. Indeed, it does seem like apples and oranges, but firmware in part, may be able to flatten the user experience.

*edit: Added Marco Reps tip cutaway angles (still doesn't explain why competitors tips cost so much and don't last..)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 02:50:21 pm
Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.
I've sent the video to our Engineers for review. We've done performance tests against competitive units and fared excellently in most cases. But note that it was never our intention to design a "JBC Killer" ... we just wanted to produce a solid, low cost, reliable soldering station that could be purchased by everyday technicians, yet withstand the rigors of intense production soldering, without costing an arm and a leg. As Dave mentioned in his review, perhaps a better comparison would be against the Hakko 951. From a cost of ownership basis, JBC is double the price for the initial cost and more than double the price of our tips, so we need to have realistic expectations. We will be successful in 90-95% of the applications, and against the competition, even JBC, in standard applications. As shown in the video, our build quality is second to none and is designed to last 10-20 years, typical for a PACE Station. Our new TD-200 handpiece is superior to the JBC, Hakko Metcal, et al: tip-to-grip is excellent (the shorter the tip-to-grip, the better fine control, especially under a microscope), ergonomics are great, and our new Cool Touch technology works! Ask Dave about the temperature of the JBC handle at higher temperatures and I think you'll find it gets extremely hot in any extended use situation - JBC now ships the handle with a large foam grip to lessen the heat issue, but I believe it ruins the otherwise solid ergonomics of the JBC iron. All in all, the feedback we've received from recent customers has been overwhelmingly positive and I think you should all give the ADS200 a try!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 03:05:16 pm

Marco Reps' review suggested the sensor may be further away from the tip, so this may explain the pace (no pun intended) at which they decided to recover in software. He noted no overshoots, just moderate and accurate recovery. Perhaps Pace could offer a menu option for aggressive thermal management, but that could end-up decreasing the famous life of the Pace tip-cladding.. Indeed, it does seem like apples and oranges, but firmware in part, may be able to flatten the user experience.

Cliff,

You are correct about the placement of the sensor. JBC's is minutely closer to the front end of the tip, allowing for a slightly faster recovery, but it ends up costing you big bucks as they are super expensive to manufacture this way. Again, we are not trying to "beat" JBC, we are simply trying to provide a high-performance (despite Dave's comparison, the ADS200 is powerful) and affordable soldering station.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 18, 2018, 03:26:52 pm
Our new TD-200 handpiece is superior to the JBC, Hakko Metcal, et al: tip-to-grip is excellent (the shorter the tip-to-grip, the better fine control, especially under a microscope), ergonomics are great

Very true! The moment i tried the handpiece at a tech show i instantly knew that. JBC iron is far from that comfy feeling in your hand.

All in all i think the hardware is capable. the firmware should be able to address the noted deficiencies.  But there should be a way to update the firmware by the user.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 18, 2018, 03:28:26 pm
Three more things to add.

I do agree that you can't judge a product against one that is twice its price, well at least not often.  There is sometimes that upset where a product half the price performs as well in every way, but it is probably more reasonable to be pleased if a product performs as well in some ways if it is half the price.  It is certainly possible that the JBC has tighter or better regulation and that would be a benefit, but it is also certainly possible that the JBC allows you to set a lower temperature and it is thinking "average temp" instead of "maximum temp".  If you look at their website, they sell this as a feature that puts them above their competition, that you can set the temp lower, but my question is if you truly compare the tip temps under use, how does that relate to the actual tip temperatures being executed.  Since it is a sales point for them, I do have to wonder what the real deal is/temps are.  A comparison where you have the ADS200 set 20 or 30 degrees higher may be inline with the JBC at a lower setting as far as actual tip temps, this is entirely possible.  It is also possible that the JBC has better temperature regulation.  What I wonder is which (temperature or regulation) is more responsible for the results of Dave's test...  I suppose you could say both when you are testing at the edge.

I use my ADS200 under a microscope 90%+ of the time and the short tip distance is great.

The third thing is that Pace has more than impressed me on customer service.  It is a big thing for me, but when a company goes out of their way to take care of their customer, I notice.  I'll be honest, I'm not easy to please as my expectations for customer service are high.  So many companies could care less about their customers or customer service so this is not a trivial thing.  Their attitude with me has always been completely positive and how can they please their customer.

For me, the bottom line is in its price point, does it excel and do what you are looking for it to do.  I came from a WES51 and I loved that iron.  The ADS200 is a definite improvement in many ways, especially tip selection.  I tried the FX-888 that everyone loves and was very disappointed with it.  I know many love it, but I thought my WES51 was better in every way.  I almost pulled the trigger on a FX-951 and was thinking about getting the microsoldering iron for it, but went with the ADS200 instead, so I can't comment about how the FX-951 would stack up against it, but I'm very satisfied with the ADS200.  I would love to see a FX-951 vs ADS200 review someday, that would apples to apples price wise.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 04:22:24 pm
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 18, 2018, 04:28:31 pm
TLDL;
It's not nearly as good thermally as the JBC CD-B, good 20+ degC difference in capability at low temp, I was very surprised. So much for "delivers unsurpassed thermal performance"  :-//
So no JBC killer, unless price is your sole driving factor.
Well built though and pretty sexy.
The display has some random number and overshoot weirdness.
Yeah, that PCB layout is kinda weird, but the overall construction quality looks amazing!!!

I'm not sure why the 15 sec setback delay is an issue — isn't that just making sure it doesn't go into setback when you're just setting it down for a second?

I would love to see this station pitted against the Ersa i-Con series. The "full" i-Con models are 120W and use non-cartridge tips, but use a quite precision machined heater core and tips, and the heater goes deep into the tips. Distance-to-tip is also very small. (The "little" i-Con models, the nano and pico, are 80W peak. The nano actually uses the same heater as the big ones, just driven at lower voltage. The pico actually uses a different heater.) Even the little ones have a power bargraph, much like the JBC. They also have configurable power profiles — low avoids any overshoot, so heats gingerly. High heats aggressively and may have significant overshoot. Medium is… a happy middle ground. (I have the nano, and it's a lovely station, but its build quality, while very good, just can't compare to this Pace, which is actually priced about the same.)


Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 18, 2018, 04:31:13 pm
JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
How do the PACE tips compare in this regard to the Ersa tips? I'm just a hobbyist so I'm sure any tips would last forever for me, but everything I've heard is that Ersa's tips last freaking forever. Is this also due to a thicker iron plating?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on July 18, 2018, 04:36:02 pm
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)

Dave has an obsession with fine tuning his tip temperatures rather than getting on with soldering.

My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.

I think a Metcal in the lab might give him an aneurysm.

He's got a point about the imperial tip sizes, though. Do everyone a favour, dual label them on the tip and package as well.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 04:38:18 pm
JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
How do the PACE tips compare in this regard to the Ersa tips? I'm just a hobbyist so I'm sure any tips would last forever for me, but everything I've heard is that Ersa's tips last freaking forever. Is this also due to a thicker iron plating?

To be honest, I'm not sure about Ersa, as we don't compete with them in the States too much. But our UK facility has probably done testing on them so I'll get back to you. I suspect they optimize for lead-free and are thus heavily plated, like PACE, and that's the reason they last so long.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 04:40:42 pm

He's got a point about the imperial tip sizes, though. Do everyone a favour, dual label them on the tip and package as well.

That is a good point. I will bring it up to the production people!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 04:48:35 pm
Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…

I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on July 18, 2018, 04:49:54 pm
Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…

I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...

Concerns about people blowing them up by not being smart enough to look for a switch?

Dual primaries shouldn't be all that much more expensive.. and a switch is a couple bucks at most (in small quantity no less).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 18, 2018, 04:55:56 pm
Isn't dual primary type just a matter of winding them with two conductors at the same time (so turn-count matches) and then soldering 4 lugs instead of 2?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 18, 2018, 05:06:59 pm
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)

High temps are good if you like to have on the tip a totally oxidized solder "paste" that can't flow, if you prefer a beautiful shiny melted alloy that can, around 300°C is the way to go.

  • JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.

That must be why JBC tips last, literally, decades (when cleaned with moist sponges).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 18, 2018, 05:13:34 pm
To be honest, I'm not sure about Ersa, as we don't compete with them in the States too much. But our UK facility has probably done testing on them so I'll get back to you. I suspect they optimize for lead-free and are thus heavily plated, like PACE, and that's the reason they last so long.
Yeah, Ersa seems nearly non-existent in USA, and wildly expensive when it does appear! (Whereas here in Europe, it's fairly common and affordable, and it's Hakko that's marked up like crazy.)

Speaking of facilities, what do you guys still do in Maryland? I vaguely recall that you've got a facility in Elkridge (which I used to live near), and used to be headquartered in Silver Spring (where I lived briefly)! :D

Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…

I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
Cool!

I mean, for that matter, other than capacitors failing, why don't soldering stations use switch mode power supplies? Those eliminate the issue of having to set a voltage. (I have witnessed careless people forget to switch the input selector to 230V and then plug it in, so I definitely can see how that's a concern, as Monkeh pointed out!)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 05:25:55 pm
Speaking of facilities, what do you guys still do in Maryland? I vaguely recall that you've got a facility in Elkridge (which I used to live near), and used to be headquartered in Silver Spring (where I lived briefly)! :D

Yes, I'm located at the Elkridge Maryland site. It's our Engineering and Training Center. However, all ADS200's and tips are manufactured in our main North Carolina factory, not here. We only produce Fume Extraction and higher-end BGA rework equipment here.

Cool!

I mean, for that matter, other than capacitors failing, why don't soldering stations use switch mode power supplies? Those eliminate the issue of having to set a voltage. (I have witnessed careless people forget to switch the input selector to 230V and then plug it in, so I definitely can see how that's a concern, as Monkeh pointed out!)

I'll check it out! Thanks for the comments!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 18, 2018, 05:39:38 pm
For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 18, 2018, 05:42:54 pm
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.

That's been my experience as well. Despite the advances in conductive soldering equipment technology, tried and true soldering/rework techniques are paramount.

With that mentioned, I do actually use the absolute lowest temperature I can, which means I have been very successful reworking with a 270°C/518°F temp setting. I do this when I can without an IR preheater or with an IR preheater when I feel pre-heating is warranted. The alloys I use allows me to do this with the equipment I have. As usual, there's a wide variety of situations where this setting is completely unrealistic, but I think the idea here is to use the lowest tip temperature possible for each job.

My personal opinion is Pace is an absolute outstanding company with almost everything they do and the ADS200 is another example of that excellence.  8)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 18, 2018, 05:47:10 pm
Lowest temp is not always ideal - higher temps can heat to melting point faster ( talking about thermal paths outside the iron) , so less exposure time. Trying to get the lowest temp possible will usually be counterproductive.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 05:51:38 pm
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.

That's been my experience as well. Despite the advances in conductive soldering equipment technology, tried and true soldering/rework techniques are paramount.

With that mentioned, I do actually use the absolute lowest temperature I can, which means I have been very successful reworking with a 270°C/518°F temp setting. I do this when I can without an IR preheater or with an IR preheater when I feel pre-heating is warranted. The alloys I use allows me to do this with the equipment I have. As usual, there's a wide variety of situations where this setting is completely unrealistic, but I think the idea here is to use the lowest tip temperature possible for each job.

My personal opinion is Pace is an absolute outstanding company with almost everything they do and the ADS200 is another example of that excellence.  8)

Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process. That being said, the inertia of bench techs, production operators and their supervisors is to turn the temperature up to maximize throughput and minimize the time it takes to reflow the solder (in either an assembly, rework or removal operation).  Concerning the low temperatures used, even back in the eutectic Sn/Pb solder days, our guidance during our training classes was to start everyone out at 316°C or 600°F with solder that melted at 183°C (361°F). I believe Dave was using a Pb-free solder with a melting point of 227°C (441°F) at 270°C? I can’t think of anyone that solders at such a low temp using lead-free solder ... except maybe Dyaxxis? ;-)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 18, 2018, 05:57:31 pm
For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
 
Rotate handle :-DD Yeah, the cord tends to form in one direction, but it's supple enough to quickly form to a new position ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Monkeh on July 18, 2018, 05:58:13 pm
In terms of comparing the ability to deliver power at the set temperature, I guess it's a not-entirely-ridiculous test, but it doesn't really have any bearing on actual soldering performance.

<320C is silly and just leads to spending all your time turning the temperature up and down for different joints.

Technique is far more valuable than varying temperature.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 18, 2018, 06:17:42 pm
Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process. That being said, the inertia of bench techs, production operators and their supervisors is to turn the temperature up to maximize throughput and minimize the time it takes to reflow the solder (in either an assembly, rework or removal operation).  Concerning the low temperatures used, even back in the eutectic Sn/Pb solder days, our guidance during our training classes was to start everyone out at 316°C or 600°F with solder that melted at 183°C (361°F). I believe Dave was using a Pb-free solder with a melting point of 227°C (441°F) at 270°C? I can’t think of anyone that solders at such a low temp using lead-free solder ... except maybe Dyaxxis? ;-)

To each their own, but then again... there's a variety of factors that DO NOT always allow me to remain at that range. To correct my own misstatement, I'll rephrase by saying "the lowest, most effective temperature possible along with the most optimal dwell time along with tip shapes and other techniques to yield the most reliable joint possible." It's not always a "one technique does all", so I do adjust my temps according if/when necessary.

So, if you are able to solder a joint at a very low temperature, but that solder joint isn't reliable, then I believe you're NOT soldering at the "lowest temperature possible."

Now, I haven't trained directly at Pace's headquarter training facilities, but I was trained with the films/videos in the very late 80's/early 90's (even from the early ones with presenter Paul "Weatherman" Anthony). And yes, your techniques are what I refer to as "de facto" training techniques, but again... procedures may change "when we leave the training room..."  8)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: jagw on July 18, 2018, 06:20:50 pm
I have been using my ADS-200 daily since it was delivered in April with the original rev 1-0 software.

It is an amazing value for the money and one rock solid piece of equipment.   Support from Pace had been responsive while sorting out the early issues (which in reality caused me no downtime whatsoever).

Yes, like anything, it has some very minor flaws, but certainly nothing that is costing me any performance or productivity.  For me it is a great tool.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 06:23:48 pm
For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
 
Rotate handle :-DD Yeah, the cord tends to form in one direction, but it's supple enough to quickly form to a new position ;)

We looked at the possibility of a freely rotating tip. Our final design was influenced by Engineering & time-to-market concerns. First of all, there are many customers that love our stationary tip design, and we have yet to receive one complaint about this on our older stations. For example, many of our military customers require a non-rotating tip to deal with conformally coated and bonded components (you gently turn the handle along with custom 4-sided tips to break the bond under surface mounted components), which won't work on say, a Metcal handpiece. But the rotating "feature" was reconsidered when Engineers estimated it would take over a year to redesign/manufacture/test the tips and resulting iron, which would have delayed introduction of the ADS200 by up to 18 months.

My own preference is for a non-rotating tip, but hey, I'm a PACE-guy!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 18, 2018, 06:27:36 pm
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko. (heh, I guess my lingo shows a few grey hairs..)  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn7eW-5MPNw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn7eW-5MPNw)

Give a like, and consider subbing to the channel (they may even be on our EEVblog YouTubers list.. Bulah?)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 18, 2018, 08:06:05 pm
Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?
Marketing terminology I guess. FWIW, my Weller gear reminds me of this (WD1 base unit had user settable timers), but add in the optional setback stand, and even more settings come into play.

Makes it rather customizable, but also a bit confusing. Definitely RTFM territory.

But note that it was never our intention to design a "JBC Killer" ... we just wanted to produce a solid, low cost, reliable soldering station...[snip].

As Dave mentioned in his review, perhaps a better comparison would be against the Hakko 951. From a cost of ownership basis, JBC is double the price for the initial cost and more than double the price of our tips, so we need to have realistic expectations. We will be successful in 90-95% of the applications, and against the competition, even JBC, in standard applications.
From what I see, it does need a few kinks worked out in software, but you've otherwise accomplished that IMHO. The comparison between the ADS200 and FX-951 is certainly valid for those in the US/CAN market. Harder in other markets, but I'd really like to see it paired against an Ersa i-Con 1 or 2 (150W using conventional plated tips).

As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).

For example, the 600F/316C for low temp cases, 700F/371C for the vast majority of soldering cases, and 800F/427C for the really high demand stuff was commonplace in lead-based processes for this purpose. And the fact that 315C, 325C, and 350C are the standards I've seen for lead-free alloys, this still seems to be the case (though 350C seems to be the most common).

Either way, the set temps are at least 100C above the alloy's melting point (i.e. 183C for 63/37 or 217C for SAC305).

Bit of a side note, I'd rather see metric sizing than imperial for tip labels as I find it easier to picture 2.4mm than 3/32".
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 18, 2018, 09:28:11 pm
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.

When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos. It is hard to find anything more stupid then wasting digital content space this way. In this case it was 18 minutes of unboxing and 4 minutes of review.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 09:29:59 pm
 :-DD
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.

When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos. It is hard to find anything more stupid then wasting digital content space this way. In this case it was 18 minutes of unboxing and 4 minutes of review.

 :-DD !!!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 18, 2018, 09:37:01 pm
I'd like to judge for myself, my unit has been paid since three months up here in Montreal.

When are units heading up here?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 09:39:12 pm
I'd like to judge for myself, my unit has been paid since three months up here in Montreal.

When are units heading up here?

Which distributor did you buy from?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 18, 2018, 09:47:24 pm
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.
When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos..
Novice YouTubers often take bad user reviews personally and have to start somewhere..  :-+ 
(not everyone's a Teflon like Dave 8) IMHO, most EE's and tech's are introverted and camera-shy - we take what we can get..)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 18, 2018, 09:49:57 pm

Which distributor did you buy from?

Accessotronik.

TIA!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 10:01:24 pm

Which distributor did you buy from?

Accessotronik.

TIA!

Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada. I doubt serious it's their fault, probably a delay on our side as we're playing catch up with all the orders. Several key distributors have ordered hundreds of ADS stations and thousands of Tips since production restarted in early June, which has bogged us down. I'll check it out and get back to you!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 18, 2018, 10:04:31 pm

Which distributor did you buy from?

Accessotronik.

TIA!

Dont they claim they have it in stock? I checked just yesterday.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 10:07:06 pm


Dont they claim they have it in stock? I checked just yesterday.

Hmmm ... I'll check it out with the owner and see if it somehow slipped through the cracks.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 18, 2018, 10:12:43 pm

Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada.

Then they better educate themselves on Customer Service. My experience with them was rough. Can you imagine placing a WEB order, waiting several days , no order shipping, no nothing, sending email inquiries to only receive  "I am away at a conference and will process your order after my return" type of reply. PoS company. It is what, one man show? Do they want make sales or rub their arrogant asses in chairs at conferences.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 18, 2018, 10:18:35 pm
The one with the ISB stand is "In stock soon. Order now to get in line. First come first served."
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 10:19:26 pm

Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada.

Then they better educate themselves on Customer Service. My experience with them was rough. Can you imagine placing a WEB order, waiting several days , no order shipping, no nothing, sending email inquiries to only receive  "I am away at a conference and will process your order after my return" type of reply. PoS company. It is what, one man show? Do they want make sales or rub their arrogant asses in chairs at conferences.

This is very unusual for Accessotronik. They have at least 10 employees, 2 locations and people on the road throughout Canada. Likely a fluke from my experience.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 18, 2018, 10:40:08 pm
What Dave says is true, whenever I swap tips in my SL2020 I often have to adjust rotation a bit further left or right.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 18, 2018, 10:41:01 pm
The one with the ISB stand is "In stock soon. Order now to get in line. First come first served."

Alex,

I just contacted the owner and he will take care of it. Again, I suspect this more of a PACE issue as the ADS200 with ISB Tool Stands were the last items to be cleared for shipment in June. Expect a call or contact from a Accessotronik Representative named Fred Gravel tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience (darn, I hate having to say this so much!)

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 12:28:03 am
As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).

I'm not suggesting that You turn down the temp and sacrifice the quality of the joint, I thought that was obvious? (maybe not it seems)

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 12:32:56 am
Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process.

I did not imply that you should turn down the temperature such that it sacrifices soldering quality, I thought that was obvious?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 19, 2018, 12:33:19 am
If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2018, 12:39:46 am
I would say yes...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 19, 2018, 12:48:12 am
Why has Dave's video been taken down?

No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dubbie on July 19, 2018, 12:50:45 am
I got 5 mins in before it was yanked.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 19, 2018, 12:59:31 am
I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on July 19, 2018, 02:02:20 am
I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
As heat transfers from the tip to the work, the tip cools, and the sensor then detects the cooling, and the MCU then sends more power to the heater.
But, if there is no solder bridge because the temperature of the work is below reflow, heat can't move out of the tip, so the sensor stays hot, and power doesn't increase. It's the same reason that you can't solder with a dry tip and need to touch the solder to the tip before feeding it onto a pad.
The tip geometry, composition, and plating determine the thermal resistance, RT in °C/W: the temperature difference required per watt of heat transfer. On a workpiece with a heavy ground, more heat transfer is needed to keep the solder molten, so the tip must be hotter.
One of Pace's comments indicates that their tips are higher RT compared to JBC, because they have heavier plating.
In other words, it's a false belief that you can keep a low tip temperature on any kind of work, just because you have the ability to supply high power. The RT means that the minimum usable tip temperature is always higher for heavier workpieces.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 19, 2018, 02:13:15 am
From the video, it seems to me the PACE control loop is taking too long to update power as an ƒ(temp), in the scope you can see the JBC feeding more power every few (mains) cycles, in the PACE it's more like only a couple times/second or so instead. That may be too slow if the rate at which the ground plane cools the tip is faster than that.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 02:45:24 am
I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?

Because the thicker iron plating has higher thermal resistance and therefore the temperature of the solder on the ground plane is much lower, so the tip is effectively "dropping" that temperature. Just like the old style contact tips have a higher thermal resistance again. It's the basic resistor-thermal analogy. I prefer the lowest thermal resistance in the tip I can get, so that the displayed temperature is at least closer to the actual joint temperature. Tip life be damned. But as always, YMMV.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 02:49:02 am
Why has Dave's video been taken down?
No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?

No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 03:13:15 am
If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?

Yes. No matter how good your soldering iron and tip, the actual temperature of the joint always drops due the unavoidable thermal resistance.
Cue the Metcal induction fanboys...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: helius on July 19, 2018, 03:49:42 am
"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".
Just ad lib, you could be talking about setpoint accuracy, setpoint variance, ready time from standby, recovery time, overshoot, or energy efficiency: these are all thermal performance parameters. Different users will weigh these factors differently, according to their preferences and needs.

For both thermal conductivity and total heat delivery, it's very hard to match a Weller D550 with a solid 12ga. copper wire! But such a tool has limited application to modern electronics.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 19, 2018, 04:00:08 am
Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 19, 2018, 04:21:00 am
Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story. Great ergonomics handpiece and low oxidating tips will do it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 06:04:04 am
Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story.

Problem is that's a really long term experiment. I don't know of way to accelerate it that would realistic?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 06:06:37 am
"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".

Sure, but few people are going to argue that temperature drop on the the tip (a.k.a tip thermal resistance) isn't one of the main criteria for determining thermal performance.
Indeed, soldering irons are split into two design camps (three if you include induction based tips like Metcal) entirely based on this concept alone.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 19, 2018, 06:32:15 am
Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=479234;image)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: presjar on July 19, 2018, 10:23:22 am
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 10:36:49 am
Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.

So they do stack!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 10:37:41 am
Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.

Not cheap to get one here in Oz, like $500 or something.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 10:39:16 am
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Hakko have basically the same mark-up here. i.e. the FX-951 is $542 AUD ex GST
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 19, 2018, 10:45:28 am
Dave your power meter froze it seems while measuring the JBC.
Did you notice any slight temp overshoot while measuring the JBCs recovery on the thermometer?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 19, 2018, 10:53:16 am

So they do stack!

Here ya go!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on July 19, 2018, 11:02:47 am

So they do stack!

Here ya go!

PACE is thinking!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 11:05:30 am
So they do stack!
Here ya go!

Nice!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 19, 2018, 11:17:38 am
No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.

Hi Dave,

As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2018, 11:55:46 am
As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.

Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.

Quote
Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".

And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 19, 2018, 11:59:52 am
As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.

Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.

Quote
Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".

And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.

"We deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance": ... there I said it! But I won't market that, heh heh heh.

Watching the new version right now!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 19, 2018, 12:08:33 pm

...As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

Aaron

That's a very valid point Aaron. In regards to the JBC manual, they do have a temp adjustment procedure as well as a notice when changing cartridge types. I actually follow this procedure dependent upon my individual experience to attempt to reduce the variation observed in alank2's pictures (as well as the +5 C difference in Dave's revised video). It is a bit of a hassle, but I'm okay with it.

It's good to see that the ADS 200 (which I have on order  8)) can achieve the precise set tip temp right out of the box, as well as having a "Temperature Match" feature. I'd really like to see how AccuDrive works without accessing that feature when changing between significantly different tip types. I'm positive that the ADS will regulate the temp very close to the set temp, but I'll need to wait until Pace offers AccuDrive "specialty tips" to test this feature.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 19, 2018, 12:22:04 pm
Hi Dave,

Just watched the video, and I think it's a fair and balanced review! Thanks for the revisions!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 19, 2018, 12:30:09 pm
So they do stack!
Here ya go!

Nice!

What I like about seeing those two units "stacked" with each other has me thinking about this...

For the Pace Worldwide North American web portal, there's a simple comparison I've made:


Yeah, I know... not really "apples-to-apples" comparison amongst distinct features between all of the units in the list, but it's nice to see how 2 ADS 200's could work out much cheaper than the previous technology units. 8)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 19, 2018, 01:07:08 pm
Loved the sponge recovery testing Dave!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 19, 2018, 01:15:11 pm
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

How strict is Australian customs? Have someone ship you a "used" one with very low miles.  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 19, 2018, 01:20:29 pm
Loved the sponge recovery testing Dave!

Someone has a job flattening sponges?  ;D
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 19, 2018, 01:22:24 pm
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

How strict is Australian customs? Have someone ship you a "used" one with very low miles.  :-+
..or maybe Jonestronics will have a deal, didn't someone say they currently have an overstock on tips?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 19, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

Presjar,

Sorry I missed your entry. Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397.  Mektronics must then ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus you have to add on duty, taxes, Customs etc. After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 19, 2018, 07:36:29 pm
How does active rectification work on this station? Does anyone have a schematic?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 19, 2018, 07:43:03 pm
There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
*edit - 4 of these: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf (https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 19, 2018, 07:45:59 pm
There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
Cliff is correct.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 19, 2018, 08:06:44 pm
There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
*edit - 4 of these: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf (https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf)

But how is it driven? :). I wonder if there is something better (=cheaper) than lt4320...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Gary.M on July 19, 2018, 10:46:13 pm
There's a good argument here for a serious distributor to bite the bullet and ship a pallet load of them by ocean freight. It is significantly cheaper.
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

Presjar,

Sorry I missed your entry. Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397.  Mektronics must then ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus you have to add on duty, taxes, Customs etc. After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 19, 2018, 11:04:38 pm
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 20, 2018, 12:11:13 am
Pretty cool, looks like I'm getting mine tomorrow, with 3 extra freebie tips of my choice.  :-+

Thanks Aaron!

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 20, 2018, 12:19:14 am
Pretty cool, looks like I'm getting mine tomorrow, with 3 extra freebie tips of my choice.  :-+

Thanks Aaron!

Great ... My understanding is that is was indeed PACE's fault, they ordered the ADS200 with ISB Tool Stand in mid June and just received them yesterday! Accessotronik is really a great group of people to work with.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 20, 2018, 12:21:27 am
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.

That's a pretty amazing price!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: blueskull on July 20, 2018, 02:40:58 am
Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story. Great ergonomics handpiece and low oxidating tips will do it.

One excellent point of JBC is that its thermal recovery is EXTREMELY fast. So it can afford to go to full sleep every time being put in its cradle and then recover in seconds.

My JBC Nano literally gets to soldering temperature within the time from I lift it from its cradle to I swing my arm back to work piece.

https://youtu.be/d_FZ3nMMnpI
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 20, 2018, 02:56:31 am
I have a feeling we'll be seeing 3rd party firmware and even 3rd party drop-in PCB's for the ADS200.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: EEVblog on July 20, 2018, 03:43:26 am
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.

Or spot on 30% and they just want to clear them out and not carry it any more?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knapik on July 20, 2018, 04:34:34 am
Dunno about that, a few months ago I saw that the same JBC irons were on sale for about the same price at Mektronics. They seem to have sales for their soldering irons kinda often? I know the fx-951 was on sale pretty recently too.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 20, 2018, 05:32:25 am
As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).
I'm not suggesting that You turn down the temp and sacrifice the quality of the joint, I thought that was obvious? (maybe not it seems)
It was actually.  :)

My comments had to do with keeping such a low temp on the pad/hole so long that the epoxy bond between the FR4 and copper foil broke free, despite the low temp setting. Subsequently allowing an operator, such as myself, to tear pads & traces off the PCB.  :palm:

FWIW, this isn't a hypothesis. BTDT and burnt the box of T-shirts. Top quality US made PCB's, so can't blame it on crap boards. Just my shitty skills at that time.  |O

Worse yet, I missed this fact at first during the beginnings of my first professional job, thus amplifying the probem (process engineering fell under my purview). :-[ I was so fortunate that others in the company spotted what was going on and explained to me where I'd gone wrong. Not just by an explanation, but by both demonstration as well as full access to an SEM to show me what was truly going on via cross-sections.  :phew: I learned so much at that time....  ;D

FWIW, the company involved was Martin Marietta, just prior to the transition to Lockheed Martin (I replaced a 42yr. veteran* who quite literally gave his entire professional life to the company = was given the choice to "take it or you get nothing" retirement options).  :--

I learned so much more than I could ever pass on I expect. Not many of them left, which truly makes me sad (not only great engineers, but some of the best human beings I've ever had the privilege of having known).  :(

* This may not mean squat to anyone else, but I miss you old man. You went too soon. :'(
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 20, 2018, 07:58:08 am
Great video presentation. Well done. But...

I hate these kinds of reviews, because without ever having even used it, one can't possibly know the first thing about how well the thing solders, how well the setback works, how hot the handle gets (when it's actually soldering things and pumping out the watts), or how good is the tip selection. It turns into so much opinion. Unfortunately, you would actually have to have a lot of soldering to do to really get a feel, and most people just don't have that need on a regular basis.

Hilarious the "hi, hi, hi" bit. That is annoying for sure. But you don't look at the display when you are actually soldering. One of my T12 clones flashes random numbers while heating up, and I never held that against it. One of my Hakko clones showed perfectly linear and insanely quick ramp up to the set temp, pretty much flipping through every single degree on the way up. Which was obviously a complete farce. About 10 seconds after it hit the set temp, you might actually be able to melt solder.



Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 20, 2018, 11:22:08 am
Hello!

Good video by Dave as usual but I would like to point few things, after waiting for this product to come out for some time now...

1) Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.

2) Iron plating thickness "issue" claim is absolute bullshit unless you are using your soldering iron to dig holes in your garden.
At work, I use JBC iron that is on all the time. I have bunch of tips that are 4-5 years old and they are still in good condition despite heavy use. I have large size tips that I use to burn trough litz wire insulation or trough Triple insulated wire all the time. I often apply a lot of pressure to push the thick trafo pins out of large copper surfaces and so far I have not damaged or destroyed a single tip.
I would expect similar lifetimes from both JBC and Pace.

2.5) JBC tips are affordable. They are already between  20-30 euro, however there are constant offers from suppliers, as well as different shops on ebay in EU that offer them for under 20Euro.

3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...

3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.

4) Handles... I like the handle design but "improving" or claiming indestructibility, or implying that competition's product is feeble and just falls apart is nonsense. JBC handles are very strong and thin. They also offer different grips you can attach and I find them quite comfortable.

Anyways, I am a little bit disappointed by this product, from a reputable company. It would do the job, but it just does not look like a well developed product.
Presently JBC is a better offer for money at least in EU.

Furthermore,

Someone mentioned using wide-range SMPS in soldering stations. I believe companies that produce soldering stations are not up to such challenge. While it is possible, and they could blow any current product out of the field in terms of speed of response, and temperature stability and controllability, they would have to deal with very complicated EMC and safety standards, and most likely they would not do it well.
Furthermore, they would have to change their temperature control method (it would become very complicated), because SMPS do not like high AC loads. Output caps would suffer and limit the lifetime of device drastically. It is far from impossible, but many fail at simple 50Hz-Triac method that current controlled SMPS would be like asking for a space-x rocket from a corner store bakery.
50Hz trafo is a very reasonable approach, simple because it is robust, safe and cheap.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on July 20, 2018, 12:49:30 pm

3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...

3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.


I don't know who you are, but I like you already. I feel the same way. It's a soldering iron. You can write a dead-easy round robin program to monitor keypresses, process input information, set display, set force values, and it would all fit into maybe 3K. The PCB design looks ... unskilled. Definitely someone on their first few PCBs ever.

Then again, large companies that make toaster ovens also can't seem to debounce rotary selector switches correctly, companies that make microwave ovens can't make a reliable keypad, washing machines that flash error codes that aren't in the manual, etc...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 20, 2018, 01:13:26 pm
Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.

It's supposed to be 225 euro list price for the 230V standard model. Dealers are possibly just listing it for whatever price they want to at the moment. Noone was even comparing it to a JBC anyway just the power spec is similar. Dave took that from this thread (that Cliff made up) and ran with it on his video. Cliff could have wrote Apple iWatch killer for all the difference it makes.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Simon on July 20, 2018, 01:22:53 pm
They seem to have used a lot of.... parts. why an active rectifier? just PWM the element and measure the temperature the ADC in most micro-controllers would surely suffice? and a bit of consideration to board layout. Were there vent holes in the back at the top? one set of holes will not be the most effective.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 20, 2018, 01:38:11 pm
They seem to have used a lot of.... parts. why an active rectifier? just PWM the element and measure the temperature the ADC in most micro-controllers would surely suffice? and a bit of consideration to board layout. Were there vent holes in the back at the top? one set of holes will not be the most effective.

Yes it has vent slots at the rear as well.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 20, 2018, 01:38:53 pm
Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.

It's supposed to be 225 euro list price for the 230V standard model. Dealers are possibly just listing it for whatever price they want to at the moment. Noone was even comparing it to a JBC anyway just the temp spec is similar. Dave took that from the title of Cliffs thread. Cliff could have wrote Apple iWatch killer for all the difference it makes.
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 20, 2018, 01:43:18 pm
I can't help but wonder if the thermal performance could be improved with a better designed control circuit?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 20, 2018, 01:58:17 pm
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).

I'm not telling you to, but it does draw a lot of attention from JBC users though :scared:.

I wasn't interested in a JBC at all when I was considering the Pace. It's not because it was JBC. I don't like fancy hard to replace blue displays, stand being anchored to the side of the station, price and tip cost. I also prefer if gear has jelly bean parts least I need to repair it easily out of warranty.

That's not hating on JBC, it's just not what I wanted. I also wanted a dual iron station so I made a compromise and got two ADS200s.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 20, 2018, 02:09:37 pm
Hello!

Good video by Dave as usual but I would like to point few things, after waiting for this product to come out for some time now...

1) Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...

2.5) JBC tips are affordable. They are already between  20-30 euro, however there are constant offers from suppliers, as well as different shops on ebay in EU that offer them for under 20Euro.
You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?

3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...
What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?

The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.

3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.
Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.

Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)

And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.

4) Handles... I like the handle design but "improving" or claiming indestructibility, or implying that competition's product is feeble and just falls apart is nonsense. JBC handles are very strong and thin. They also offer different gripsrt. you can attach and I find them quite comfortable.
Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.

Someone mentioned using wide-range SMPS in soldering stations. I believe companies that produce soldering stations are not up to such challenge. While it is possible, and they could blow any current product out of the field in terms of speed of response, and temperature stability and controllability, they would have to deal with very complicated EMC and safety standards, and most likely they would not do it well.
Furthermore, they would have to change their temperature control method (it would become very complicated), because SMPS do not like high AC loads. Output caps would suffer and limit the lifetime of device drastically. It is far from impossible, but many fail at simple 50Hz-Triac method that current controlled SMPS would be like asking for a space-x rocket from a corner store bakery.
50Hz trafo is a very reasonable approach, simple because it is robust, safe and cheap.
I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.

SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)

And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: 2N3055 on July 20, 2018, 03:20:47 pm
I think JBC has more aggressive D part of PID.. It probably has more of an overshoot. Also it poses the question if there is such thing as too fast recovery..
There are stations now that deliberately make temp recovery slower, to minimize thermal shock on components. Some Ersa stations have a three level setting for thermal recovery inertia..

I think Pace is good enough for general work, on par or slightly better than Hakko. Good choice of tips and good tip prices.

JBC tips are very expensive, they sell tips for tweezers individually..

But , more or less, you can get Ersa, or Hakko or PACE and get a good tool.
What I want to see if this ADS200 station will accept thermal tweezers.

With every manufacturer, tweezers demand different power unit. If this PACE ADS200 will accept micro tweezers, and you give a good choice of inexpensive tweezer tips... That's a winner.
LED display is awesome. User interface is meh, adequate...

So for me if there will be good and affordable tweezers that I can connect directly to ADS200 power unit so I don't have to buy separate PSU is a winner..
Also, nobody makes power unit with two iron sockets, but with a switch, to select iron 1 or 2 only one at the time. Todays units are so fast, you could switch back and forth with a switch.
If you release tweezers for ADS200 I might just buy ADS200 and tweezers and make something like that externally...


Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 20, 2018, 04:04:53 pm


With every manufacturer, tweezers demand different power unit. If this PACE ADS200 will accept micro tweezers, and you give a good choice of inexpensive tweezer tips... That's a winner.
LED display is awesome. User interface is meh, adequate...

So for me if there will be good and affordable tweezers that I can connect directly to ADS200 power unit so I don't have to buy separate PSU is a winner..
Also, nobody makes power unit with two iron sockets, but with a switch, to select iron 1 or 2 only one at the time. Todays units are so fast, you could switch back and forth with a switch.
If you release tweezers for ADS200 I might just buy ADS200 and tweezers and make something like that externally...

Thanks for the comments. A new Thermal Tweezer is in the works but will not be available until at least Oct/Nov and will only work on the ADS200.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on July 20, 2018, 04:57:32 pm
So I guess "No JBCs were harmed in the making of this thread. This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events, locales, and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual unsurpassed thermal performance is purely coincidental."
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 20, 2018, 06:45:43 pm
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...

Well we are comparing SOME prices, and I like to compare prices that I would be charged, not some wishlist wholesale prices. I think that is fair.
We were told it would be around 200USD or 200Euro. And so far I have not seen these prices anywhere. Presently this product costs as much as JBC in EU and in AU, so I think the comparison is fair.

If Pace becomes 100Euro in the future, i would recommend it as an incredible value for money, but now it is just not!

You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
Please send me a link to a 10 Euro chisel Pace tip?
And yes, tip price of 20-30 euro IS affordable. An engineer lives and dies by his tools, so 20E is nothing for a tool that you will use for years if not decades. I love to have good selection of tips for all jobs.

What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
Modern uController offers many advantages, that I do not have time or desire to go into here. But more importantly, using an obsolete micro and quite frankly wasting money on unnecessary components elsewhere is a statement of just simply bad and unprofessional level of design. At the very best, done by someone inexperienced.

It should be fixed already. I do not want to re-flash my tools, or have weekly updates. Again, it is a soldering station, not a smartphone...

Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.

Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)

And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.


I will not comment on your personal taste or preference, but you just used "strawman" logical fallacy by assuming I want JBC style interface.
I was not commenting on JBC display or ERSA, or WELLER... I said the user interface is dated. I have seen dirt cheap Chinese products with proper interface and a clear display, so it CAN be done for a price. (one more advange of using modern uControllers)

Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
It was a slight hyperbole but not much. One of their advertising point in their materials is "THE QUALITY", as well here it was mentioned many times about the effort of redesigning the handle completely. While I appreciate attention to details, it somehow feels like they have missed many, and I say many a weak spots of this product.
Again it is evidence of amateurism.


I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.

SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)

And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)

Wrong again. Actually to get a professional level SMPS, well tested and reliable, and to make it for a price. To pass approvals and safety test, takes about 1-1.5 years of work of one or two competent engineers.

You are suggesting they should simply replace 50Hz trafo with a fixed output voltage, wide input range SMPS designed by 3rd party. That might be too expensive, AND/OR would require heavy filtering on the output of the smps and the result would still be sh*t with compromised limited lifetime. I was talking about AC load not AC output current, but ok, pulsed load if you wish...
It is far from unsolvable problem, it is matter of money spent of filtering, but standard of the shelf power supplies would have a lot of trouble with 100Hz pulse load because output caps would see entire ripple current.
It is very hard to find a well designed SMPS in the class D amps now that you mentioned it.

A smart way to do this would be to incorporate SMPS controll loop into the control of the tip temperature. You would have a current output smps, that is controlled by a temperature control loop. And all this could even be done digitally with the modern uController.
That is why I said they would have to change their temperature control method.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 20, 2018, 07:01:15 pm
I'm not entirely impressed by the Pace's construction, but the lower TCO due to the tips being reasonably priced and probably longer lasting is very attractive. When you get to the nicer bits of kit, it's all about TCO. The initial purchase price really isn't that relevant.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: 2N3055 on July 20, 2018, 08:00:06 pm
Welectron:

Ultra 1131-0055-P1 (6.35mm Chisel)13.82 €
JBC C245-966 Soldering Tip 6.5x1.7mm Chisel 21.43 €

Ultra 1131-0008-P1 (1.20mm 30° Chisel)13.82 €
JBC C210-008 Soldering Tip 1.3x0.6mm Chisel 29.33 €

So yes there is difference, especially if you want to buy a collection of tips
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 20, 2018, 08:14:27 pm
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...

Well we are comparing SOME prices, and I like to compare prices that I would be charged, not some wishlist wholesale prices. I think that is fair.
We were told it would be around 200USD or 200Euro. And so far I have not seen these prices anywhere. Presently this product costs as much as JBC in EU and in AU, so I think the comparison is fair.

If Pace becomes 100Euro in the future, i would recommend it as an incredible value for money, but now it is just not!
Nobody said it would be $200. The MSRP is around $240 and the street price so far is between $220-240. You are basically angry that they didn't meet a price point that you imagined in your head.

Edit: Here's the link to Pace's actual statement on prices: "The ADS200 is only US$239/€ 225/£199 each vs WJS 100 US$360/€ 325/£265 each!" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1468988/#msg1468988)

What their regional distributors do is out of their control. Yeah, it sucks that many of them mark things up insanely, but it's not Pace's fault. (Believe me, this stuff angers me all the time, I live in Switzerland, famous for high markups. At least it's gotten better over the past 25 years…)

You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
Please send me a link to a 10 Euro chisel Pace tip?
And yes, tip price of 20-30 euro IS affordable. An engineer lives and dies by his tools, so 20E is nothing for a tool that you will use for years if not decades. I love to have good selection of tips for all jobs.
Tips aren't the part you use for decades. They're consumables, and you may need lots of them.

What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
Modern uController offers many advantages, that I do not have time or desire to go into here. But more importantly, using an obsolete micro and quite frankly wasting money on unnecessary components elsewhere is a statement of just simply bad and unprofessional level of design. At the very best, done by someone inexperienced.
If you're unwilling to list any advantages of a modern MCU, then I'm unwilling to accept your argument.

It should be fixed already. I do not want to re-flash my tools, or have weekly updates. Again, it is a soldering station, not a smartphone...
Agreed that the firmware seems a bit rushed. It also seems they're running into issues due to this being their first foray into lower cost markets, and thus suddenly being exposed to the different expectations of the hobbyist user group.

Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.

Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)

And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.


I will not comment on your personal taste or preference, but you just used "strawman" logical fallacy by assuming I want JBC style interface.
I was not commenting on JBC display or ERSA, or WELLER... I said the user interface is dated. I have seen dirt cheap Chinese products with proper interface and a clear display, so it CAN be done for a price. (one more advange of using modern uControllers)
You said it was dated, and I basically agreed. My question was basically as to whether the new interfaces are actually superior, because I think they're often not.

Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
It was a slight hyperbole but not much. One of their advertising point in their materials is "THE QUALITY", as well here it was mentioned many times about the effort of redesigning the handle completely. While I appreciate attention to details, it somehow feels like they have missed many, and I say many a weak spots of this product.
Again it is evidence of amateurism.
You keep calling them inexperienced and amateurs, but they've been in this business for 60 years.

I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.

SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)

And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)

Wrong again. Actually to get a professional level SMPS, well tested and reliable, and to make it for a price. To pass approvals and safety test, takes about 1-1.5 years of work of one or two competent engineers.

So… what am I wrong about? LMAO. Sounds to me like you like to cry "WRONG" for the fun of it, completely unrelated to factual accuracy.

Are you saying it's cheaper, faster, and safer to design a PSU in-house than to outsource it to a specialist company? Yeah, right. I have a bridge to sell you…

You are suggesting they should simply replace 50Hz trafo with a fixed output voltage, wide input range SMPS designed by 3rd party.
I asked about it because I am curious as to why soldering stations have remained with linear power supplies while nearly every other type of product has moved to SMPSs, which have many advantages. It's a valid question.

Your followup comments imply to me that you continue to be not on the same page, I think we're discussing very different things somehow. I don't think you've really understood my point.

That might be too expensive, AND/OR would require heavy filtering on the output of the smps and the result would still be sh*t with compromised limited lifetime. I was talking about AC load not AC output current, but ok, pulsed load if you wish…
Again: what the fuck does an "AC load" mean? A heater is a resistive load, it's neither inherently AC nor DC.

Why would it need heavy filtering? A resistive heater has a ton of thermal inertia, so there's really no need for heavy filtering at all.

It is far from unsolvable problem, it is matter of money spent of filtering, but standard of the shelf power supplies would have a lot of trouble with 100Hz pulse load because output caps would see entire ripple current.
It is very hard to find a well designed SMPS in the class D amps now that you mentioned it.
Hahahah yeah, right. Then how come power supplies routinely handle exactly such loads?

A smart way to do this would be to incorporate SMPS controll loop into the control of the tip temperature. You would have a current output smps, that is controlled by a temperature control loop. And all this could even be done digitally with the modern uController.
That is why I said they would have to change their temperature control method.
You mean using tip temp feedback directly in the SMPS control loop? That'd be interesting for sure. More complicated than anything I envisioned, but presumably more efficient.

Oh, here we go again with the "modern MCU" schpiel… give it a rest.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 20, 2018, 08:48:13 pm
It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.

Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how  "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 20, 2018, 09:56:22 pm
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 20, 2018, 10:02:49 pm
I think JBC has more aggressive D part of PID.. It probably has more of an overshoot. Also it poses the question if there is such thing as too fast recovery..

Idk, but not having overshoot was a marketing program of JBC. They even produced some plots, you can google their report.

PS poor jbc, looks like people really try hard to find flaws in their irons just because of provoking thread title.

PPS I'm happy user of a t12 clone :P
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 20, 2018, 10:06:09 pm
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Well, it’s obvious, you’re going to have to order another. That one is taken.  (Beautiful kitty, by the way!! <3 )
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 20, 2018, 10:10:17 pm
It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.

Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how  "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 20, 2018, 10:13:00 pm
Nothing wrong with a linear power supply. In fact, I prefer a linear supply and Class A amplifiers too. Linear supplies are simple and reliable. Who cares about efficiency? Not me. I feel like I'm getting more for my money when there's a heavy transformer inside. All the top brands of soldering stations still use linear supplies.

SMPS power supplies are more complicated and have reliability issues, EMI problems etc. Judging by the failures I've seen, they're hard on filter caps and they fail catastrophically. All those cheapo T12 clone stations use SMPS supplies. No thanks.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Fsck on July 20, 2018, 10:13:20 pm
It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.

Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how  "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.

I think it's also that not very many of us are using them as production irons so we're not blowing through the plating as quickly.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 20, 2018, 11:15:27 pm
Quote
"No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...

This is not just harsh, it's a little-off base. We just watched Dave open up multiple sealed tips, set the temp, and BAM. Like magic, they measured within 1 degree of the set temp. That is impressive, in itself. Sample of only what, 2? or 3? But they hit the mark. Hakko made a station that did this (I don't know if it was as spot on), but they needed to put a barcode on the different sized/shaped tips. And last I checked, they dropped the whole idea.

Then the modern micro thing? Firstly, what does that matter? Second, which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC? Finally, why in the world do you think the hardware is causing the temp to jump? What makes you think the temp is jumping, at all? As far as anyone knows, simply from watching this video, the iron was doing exactly what it was supposed to. It could be a software thing that affects only the display.

Can you tell us what you have used USB interface for on your JBC?

As far as iron plating and set temp, there's only 2 things that I care about, here. Yes, like Dave, I aim for the lowest temp that works, properly, for the task at hand. But as far as "damage to components," that is typically not even on my radar. The temp is only one part of the equation (and set temp isn't equal to the temp the joint gets!). The other part is dwell time. So when the joint flows, you remove the iron. It's not rocket science.

Back to the 2 thing that matter. The reason for the lowest temp that works is tip life and how fast does the tip crust over and oxidize. So at this temp..

1. How long do the tips last?
2. How often do I have to stop and clean the tip due to oxidation and/or burnt flux to keep it working?

You have to do a lot of soldering to find out.

Pace traditionally makes irons for production work. To put in perspective, Metcal/Thermaltronics recommend their 700F series tips for general purpose including leadfree. The average set temp (probably depending on tip size/shape) is? Wait for it.... 370C. Metcal are also well regarded in production soldering environments.

The fact that JBC will melt the leadfree on a big ground plane at 285C (with a beastly huge tip)? Unless the tip lasts significantly longer and requires less frequent cleaning, it's nothing but a fancy parlor trick.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 20, 2018, 11:59:42 pm
First of all, that is one nice kitty :)

@Tooki

You are right regarding the price. I did not check the advertised numbers for some time. I remembered it was around 200E. So it was 225E. However current prices are what they are.
I was commenting on what I see online regarding offers. And so far there is only one store that is holding these (welectron !?), until today I did not know this shop, but they have Pace. Are there any others that currently have ads200 in stock.

Quote
You are basically angry that they didn't meet a price point that you imagined in your head.

You are assuming my state of mind and my motivations. Please do not do that because I do not get emotionally invested in a simple commodity or into internet discussions. It is a stupid soldering station not cure for cancer. I was simply commenting on one aspect of what was advertised vs delivered.

You asked a question of using SMPS in soldering stations. It is perfectly valid question. I asked myself that previously as well..

There are a LOT of drawbacks to using smps, not the least of which is that they are complicated.
Compared to 100-200W standard 50Hz trafo, SMPS will almost always be more expensive and less efficient.

Older soldering stations as well as JBCs have one active component, a triac, or in  this new PACE mosfet bridge that is much more efficient but still nice and simple to control. They do not even need a heatsink for the bridge since they switch them at 0V crossing.

SMPS will have between 3-5 switching components, and all of them will have more losses. Radiated and conducted noise are going to be much higher and subject to become a problem over time...

Standard SMPS has around 200 components. As you said, there is no chance they could assemble them inhouse. They would have to source them from 1 company, while they can get their trafo from 100 companies produced to their specifications. SMPS might have to be custom made by the supplier to fit their housing, and it is hard to find a supplier willing to do that job since approvals will have to be redone, unless volumes involved are very high.
Prices of the trafos will probably not change while prices of SMPS are not as stable. Lead times during past 2 years are insanely high for magnetics as well as semiconductors...

Simple trafo has a good power factor. It is much more safer and more reliable. It will work in 100 years as well as it works today. No lifetime limiting elcaps. One elco usually found is powering a micro, and other low power electronics. From a volume point of view for 100ish W 50Hz trafo might even be smaller.

I believe you misunderstood my comment about filtering, it has nothing to do with thermal mass of the tip...

Heater is a fixed value, and output of the PSU is a fixed voltage. For duty cyle 100% lets say that is 100W. if you want to lower the power to 10W, you switch it with 10% duty cycle. In switching moment the output elko will see high peak current (I called it ac load because from the PSU side you will see those AC peaks trough the output elkos, while I admit pulsed load is better term it might be due language), despite being 10W only the ripple of the elkos will be the same. For higher switching frequencies losses and problems rise exponentially.

@KL27x
Stm32 and dsPICs have internal 16bit micro, and if your thermocouple amplifier is solid, you will get the same "magic" :)
You do not need USB, but you get it for free, so your customers can update the firmware when you publish it. No way to update pace.


Pleasant weekend!

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 21, 2018, 12:28:14 am
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
I see you've similar lab assistants.  :o  >:D

If I can get the lot to settle just long enough for a photo, I'll post it. Unfortunately, mine are both clever and camera shy enough that this will be a tough task.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 21, 2018, 12:32:30 am
Elecktropionir: Obvious circuit/PCB design guy. Am I right? Just put the little bits on there, and then those other dudes just make the rest happen. :)

(Also, when I see the display/temp thing, I'm super inclined to think it's software, not hardware.) :)

Good weekend!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 21, 2018, 12:51:56 am
Quote from: elektropionir on Today at 07:59:42 pm (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=102389.msg1688600#msg1688600)
@KL27x
Stm32 and dsPICs have internal 16bit micro, and if your thermocouple amplifier is solid, you will get the same "magic" :)
You do not need USB, but you get it for free, so your customers can update the firmware when you publish it.
No way to update pace.

I think Aaron covered that in #55 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1464603/#msg1464603) (and maybe another thread?). When required, they send it along with PLCC tweezers.

*edit Another post over on EEV#1106 here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1685777/#msg1685777 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1685777/#msg1685777)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 21, 2018, 01:15:08 am
If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 21, 2018, 02:25:55 am
I actually love the user interface (button, up, down) and LED display.  If you look in Dave's video, you can always see the ADS200 clearly and JBC's screen though an advanced one with more info on it, is a pain to read.  I think the UI is clean, simple, and solid.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Dyaxxis on July 21, 2018, 04:00:44 am
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).

Nah! You're good! It's just a title for good kicks and a good way to see how any and all manufacturers will do their very best!  :-+

I'm just rolling with it.  8)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 21, 2018, 06:27:35 am
Thanks, Taz is a gentle giant of a cat. He likes everything except being brushed, if you can tell.

I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.

1) It does deliver tons of heat. If you ignore the display jumping around and just use the thing, it does provide great thermal performance. I tried melting solder onto a piece of double sided copper clad, using a 13/64" Ultra tip. It's faster than my Hakko 936 set to the same 700F. But the 936 is melting the solder too, just a bit slower. Using the huge 5/16" Ultra tip I was able to almost instantly melt solder onto a Canadian dime.

2) It heats up in seconds, my Hakko takes tens of seconds.

3) While the iron is small and light, the cord weighs more than the iron. Feels a bit odd. But it fits nice in the hand and the distance to the tip is much better for smaller work than the 936.

4) The ISB cord is shorter than the iron cord. I put my Hakko station on a shelf and keep the iron on the desk, but with the PACE this is not possible because the ISB cable is so short. If the ISB connector were on the front... (It's probably easy to transplant the connector from the rear)

5) The stand is good, it's really not that hard to get the iron to land correctly to trigger the switch. I agree with whoever said it should have been done through the iron cord, but what do I know.

6) The power supply is large and heavy. You can insert the iron cord easily and the unit doesn't move. It does look a bit odd, on the one hand you have the large cast bezel and the extruded case, but the front panel is just a piece of sheet aluminum. On the other hand it'll make adding the ISB connector to the front easier, unless the PCB is in the way inside. The power switch feels a bit cheap, not as robust as the Hakko's. The bezel is also a carry handle of sorts.

Overall I'm happy, some firmware weirdness needs to be fixed IMO, the jumping display just doesn't inspire confidence.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 21, 2018, 08:27:38 am
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.

You are correct sir.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 21, 2018, 08:56:30 am
I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.

I like the power switch, anythings better than reaching around the side or over the back and a pain if it blocked by other gear.

One solution for the ISB cord is to DIY up an extension, it's probably hard to account for all situations when it comes to length. In the past I left my stands and station at the back of the table, but bring the stand forward if I must. I'm still deciding on the final resting place for the new stations as I now I have a few more mounting options to try out.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on July 21, 2018, 09:16:06 am
If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting  :popcorn:

As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.

You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 21, 2018, 10:07:47 am
So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: MacMeter on July 21, 2018, 10:26:19 am
So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.

I understand it was not designed into this model, but I think any manufacturer these days that have any onboard electronics that control the products performance, settings, etc., would be wise to consider adding such a low cost somewhat “future proof” ability.

I wasn’t thrilled when I found out there were firmware updates on my BM235 DMM, but no way to upgrade, other then buying another, then another. It was my fault as I never thought DMM’s were ever upgraded. I love it, it’s my #1 meter, but as I’ve grown older, unless I have some real need for an electronics product immediately, I have learned to be more patient and besides reading and watching reviews etc., I usually WAIT awhile and no longer desire to get the first ones off the assembly line. This more mature approach has paid off so many times. It’s good insurance to avoid buyers remorse!

I will say, that at least Pace has the replacement chip option for those few without a computer to do a firmware update, but I don’t think that would be the norm, and they could save some cash with downloadable firmware.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 21, 2018, 04:00:21 pm
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 21, 2018, 04:44:21 pm
If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting  :popcorn:

As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.

You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.

We hear you ... this was something discussed and will be implemented in future stations.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 21, 2018, 05:12:37 pm
WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=480854;image)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 21, 2018, 05:16:51 pm
WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/?action=dlattach;attach=480854;image)

Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 21, 2018, 05:23:22 pm
Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...

 :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 21, 2018, 06:23:18 pm
Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

Multiples of 5, not powers.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 21, 2018, 07:05:30 pm
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 21, 2018, 07:47:38 pm
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 21, 2018, 07:53:22 pm
There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount.  Too much can be distracting.  Too little can not be informative enough.  I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 21, 2018, 10:26:22 pm
^+1
I have done production soldering for several years, now.

Why do they use a 17 bit ADC despite 5 degree resolution of temp setting? Despite the 1 degree resolution of the display? Those things don't matter.

In production soldering you don't look at a display. And you don't need to adjust the temp to a tenth of a degree or even 1 degree. The human operator makes the final adjustment to his own technique after the best setting is found for the task at hand. What matters is consistency and repeatability, so that once the groove has been found, it doesn't change, and the iron behaves as expected throughout the other 1000 of the same operation. When soldering stations do the soldering by themselves, then they can bother adjusting temp down to a tenth of a degree... without turning knobs or pressing buttons... and they won't need a display to see where they're at. Until then, the best way an iron can behave is simply to be as consistent as possible, down to as fine a resolution as possible, day in day out, without drifting with time or temp or humidity... and it doesn't matter if that shows up on a display or not. As a production solderer, there are only 2 reasons to have a display at all. 1. To aid in adjusting the temp and/or to quickly return to previous known settings and 2. To debug in the event of problems with the station.

That Pace uses 17 bit ADC and doesn't have a USB port just shows their priorities are pretty much correct for their traditional market. They are working at improving the part that matters. Whether they succeeded or not, only time will tell. But I find it impressive that Dave took two random tips and they both measured spot on. If you can replace a worn tip with a new one, and it behaves exactly the same as before, that would be pretty nice.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 22, 2018, 08:08:06 am
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

1) Discussion was about MCUs not having 17bit ADCs. I question this is needed. 10 or 12 bit ADC would do the job. Jelly bean MCUs have it.

2) It doesn't display to that resolution, so, yes, 9bit is fine. In fact, if it rounds to 5deg C, then even 8bit ADC would do the job (assuming ADC is only for display and control loop is analog).

3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away. Also, ADCs with a lot of resolution are harder to make them properly working. They easily pick up noise from environment, power rails, etc. Even 12bits is not easy to utilize (as stm32 demo boards show, I've seen noise up to 3 LSB).

Just in case, I'm not saying they are doing it wrong or something. I just like to discuss the design and learn something from it. There can be non-design reasons to make the station this way. May be they just had tons of these 17bit ADCs for free and decided to use them. Or they just wanted reduce design costs/time and put parts with overkill specs, who knows.

BTW how does AccuDrive works? Everyone says "wow, it is spot on", but I'd want to know details. Because may be Dave received a special calibrated unit with pre-selected tips.

PS any hi-res photos of the PCB available? Want to see how active rectification works... I have two ideas how it can work (e.g., using comparators to switch mosfets, or a self-driving circuit if load is resistive).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 22, 2018, 11:00:06 am
Quote
3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away.
A soldering station isn't a temperature measuring device. None of the resolution is necessarily discarded. It doesn't need to be displayed, because the display doesn't do any soldering. Presumably, that high resolution ADC is used to improve response and temp stability. If it is only there to put a number on a screen, and the temp control loop doesn't use it, well that would a pretty big joke. Let's hope for Pace that this isn't the case.

Some of the Metcal stations don't even have a temp display or adjustment capability. The user input and display have a resolution of 1 bit. It's on or off. But every bit of resolution that the Curie RF system produces (which is infinite, since it's analog) is put to work. In the Metcal, the further the tip drops in temp, the more it increases in skin resistance, and the more power gets put into the tip. something like that, anyhow. If you wanted to do that digitally, you have to differentiate to some level of resolution. How much will matter? Well, enough is enough, but more can't hurt. 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 22, 2018, 11:35:46 am
Quote
3) No point in having more data if it is thrown away.
You don't seem to understand the post I made just previous to yours. A soldering station isn't a temperature measuring device. None of the resolution is discarded. It doesn't need to be displayed, because the display doesn't do any soldering.

I'm questioning 1) how many ENOB they can get from the circuit 2) if there is a digital control loop or analog (you claim it is digital, are you sure?).

Just in case, a 17bit ADC supplied from 5V has 0.038mV step. Good luck getting this resolution and precision in a circuit supplied from a 7805 regulator (or whatever there, I don't have access to fast Internet to check what was there) with no shielding and layout considerations. It's a resolution of a 5.5 digit DMM. I don't remember seeing lm399 on the board. Also, ADC with high resolution are slow. So, definitely resolution was not a reason to put a 17bit ADC.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 22, 2018, 11:45:02 am
You make good points.

If the temp control loop doesn't use those bits, well that would be curious. Maybe it IS just for show.. :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 22, 2018, 11:47:07 am
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...
I think the issue isn’t the granularity (1 degree or 5 or 10), but rather the display update rate and the hysteresis. A value that’s switching between 280 and 285 every second is every bit as annoying as one flapping between 283 and 284. It depends on the display type, but on an LED display, an update rate faster than about 8-10 updates per second becomes impossible to read. Somewhere between 3-7 is my personal preference for most devices. (Non-TFT) LCDs are slower, so 3-5 is about the max for them to remain legible. On a soldering station, I’d lean towards a gentler rate like 3/sec.

But hysteresis is the critical thing here: Let’s assume 5 updates per second. If the setback logic is maintaining 280F ±2F (actual tip temp), then you might set the hysteresis to 2 degrees, so that it won’t update the display until the temp actually leaves the 278-282F range, and then you update in 1 degree steps.

There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount.  Too much can be distracting.  Too little can not be informative enough.  I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.
In actual practice, 5 degrees granularity is more than enough for soldering. But as a nerd, somehow, I like seeing the individual degrees! :P





Since we’re on the topic of display annoyance: I think I’d find the blinking setback to be very distracting. I wonder whether there’s enough CPU cycles left to do fancy effects like dimming the display (or gently “throbbing” it) when it’s in setback — or doing something with the Ready LED, like turning it yellow or throbbing it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 22, 2018, 12:01:18 pm
BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used :)

Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 22, 2018, 12:14:21 pm
Some observations: TC500ACOE is not so costly, it lists as a $2.50 part (est. 1000's price). Date sheet header says designer can trade resolution for speed, but no more than 10sps. Marco Reps investigation shows unbuffered 120hz DC to the tip..

*edit - Opps forgot, here's the index to the point he made: https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=843
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 22, 2018, 12:35:00 pm
TC500ACOE

Wait, but that's not ADC. It's an ADC _frontend_. Now it's getting really weird...

Marco Reps investigation shows unbuffered 120hz DC to the tip..

You mean 100Hz? (He's in Germany, afaik, so should be 50Hz mains) Uhm, so, I guess, there is no control to fets at all, are they connected like this? https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/203315/storing-the-the-charge-from-a-mosfet-bridge-rectifier . But then I wonder why rectifying at all? Why not drive iron from AC?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 22, 2018, 12:54:41 pm
There's also an ICL7660A to run +- 5V to that front-end..
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: alank2 on July 22, 2018, 02:00:57 pm
I don't know too much about these things, but when it comes to temperature regulation and PID loops, wouldn't more resolution/precision offer superior control, irregardless of the display?  Could the ADC resolution be primary there to drive control?  Maybe this is obvious..
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 22, 2018, 03:09:22 pm
BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used :)

Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.


I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.

Kits would probably need too much support.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 22, 2018, 04:57:34 pm
BTW, consider making a series of "performance tips" with better heat transfer (and shorter tip life). It's a win-win: 1) better performance 2) people will have to buy more tips from you if they want performance 3) less coating material used :)

Another idea: sell the station as a kit. I'd love to assemble one by myself.


I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.

Kits would probably need too much support.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.

Kits would be a horrible idea for Pace. Just way too much aggravation, potential damage to their reputation, and increased costs (they're not Heathkit, which is long gone).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 22, 2018, 06:09:47 pm
I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 22, 2018, 07:30:18 pm
Just watched Marco Reps's video. Afaik, there is no "active" rectification, just mosfets connected in "ideal diode" configuration. Which is fine.

The station switches heater at zero crossing. This means decisions are made at the rate twice the line frequency. So, in the worst case there is a delay of 10ms. Why I'm saying this? Just to say that even a slow SMPS would work just fine (I'm not sure they are really slow as some users report here). But, again, doesn't really matter.

Concerning display and other fancy features. It is true they are not essential for soldering. But noobs like me like them. So, it's just a matter of target market. Also would make possible to change profiles, preset temperatures, etc easier (ersa with configuration on sdcard is a joke).

I personally like rotating encoders with push button. Minimalistic and convenient.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 22, 2018, 08:15:59 pm
Just watched Marco Reps's video. Afaik, there is no "active" rectification, just mosfets connected in "ideal diode" configuration.
Not so fast, take a look at 15:25 (https://youtu.be/erKCA71q7cg?t=843 ) bottom left is right under the mosfets. I couldn't get a good enough look at the tiny part number, but Z1 and Z4 could be dual zener's who's tab could be under uC control.

*edit - those are ZXMN4A06G n-ch mosfets, if that makes any sense (it might have been easier with p-ch?).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 22, 2018, 09:13:45 pm
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 22, 2018, 09:21:19 pm
I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
I wasn't aware the SD card was usable for that.

Seems a bit of a PITA though vs. the rotary encoder with button operated menu system in the bigger siblings.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 22, 2018, 09:52:34 pm
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
You have good eyes! I'm still curious where Vin for the 7805 comes from (it won't boot without it..) The body diodes?

*Edit - In future model updates etc..
If Pace considers a single transformer with dual winding's, they might consider internal wiring only, since a station incorrectly strapped for 120v on 240v would require 80v mosfets and good crowbar to protect (yet again another reason for SMPS as some have suggested).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 23, 2018, 12:50:04 am
I don't like how small the sponge cubby is. Solder blobs fly out all the time. The sponge is half the size of the Hakko 936's.

Really don't like this.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Bud on July 23, 2018, 01:23:50 am
JBC sponge is also tiny.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 23, 2018, 01:25:55 am
JBC sponge is also tiny.

I probably wouldn't like it either.  :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on July 23, 2018, 01:44:36 am
No brass wool holder on the Hakko 936 stand, so 90s ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 23, 2018, 02:39:23 am
If you'd rather use a sponge only, then why not just remove the brass wool box so you can install a larger one?

Or is there some technical reason preventing this that I'm not seeing in the photos?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: gabinetex on July 23, 2018, 07:36:24 am
Not to mention,  JBC sponge-life is notoriously short. They get corroded, I heard somewhere.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 23, 2018, 11:02:58 am
I don't know what came over me to do this this morning, but here we are. I'll finish up later.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 23, 2018, 06:23:44 pm
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Finally uploaded a few photos. Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/post-a-picture-of-a-cat!/msg1694750/#msg1694750) in the Post a picture of a cat! thread.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 23, 2018, 08:17:06 pm
Quote
Concerning display and other fancy features. It is true they are not essential for soldering. But noobs like me like them. So, it's just a matter of target market. Also would make possible to change profiles, preset temperatures, etc easier (ersa with configuration on sdcard is a joke).

I personally like rotating encoders with push button. Minimalistic and convenient.

A company that does not have experience with encoders should not be using them for this. Months or years later, when the encoder wears in and the device becomes buggy or even unusable is too big a liability for this. Additionally, a rotary encoder just keeps spinning. A pot, you don't have to look at, which the pot is much preferable to me for a soldering iron control. (Absolute encoders are a thing; a very expensive thing). And finally, no matter how fast is your fancy micro, if you turn a given encoder too fast, it is going to miss steps.

Another problem is the issue of when the encoder actually fails. The parameters of an electric encoder are very specific, and they must be accounted for in the software. If the part can no longer be sourced 10+ years down the line, your station could turn into a paperweight, for practical purposes. Replacing with a different encoder even with the same number of detents could prove problematic due to different bounce characteristics and whatnot. Barring hours of tweaking and debugging and hacking. It may be possible to account for this in the software, in the first place, at least if your micro has speed and resources to dedicate to this. But considering how many devices I own where the designer can't even get the originally specc'ed encoder to work, properly, this is not realistic to just assume as a given. Having tinkered with encoders, myself (with less than 100% reliability, admittedly), I suspect to account for wider range of replacement parts, it might require significant compromise, such as in regards to max rpm that can be detected (at least without user interface to change parameters, which not only takes "work" for the user, but is going to be difficult to do when the only user input is not working).

Save encoder for navigating menu that is more complicated than temp up or down. It might look cool when Marco Reps does it. But anyone who were to rely on that station will eventually curse the design choice.

This is not a TS-100; nor is the TS-100 the future of soldering irons.  :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 23, 2018, 08:53:26 pm
A company that does not have experience with encoders should not be using them for this
[skip]

I think you are exaggerating problems. Anyway, you can say the same about pretty much everything, including buttons. They can become obsolete, they miss pushes, you have to look at it, etc. Just buy parts with standard footprint from a reputable supplier, that's the secret. Reliability data is to be found in the datasheet.

BTW, there are other components that can become obsolete. Like, that ADC, etc.

> your station could turn into a paperweight, for practical purposes

That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).

PS Do you propose to build all the equipment only with push buttons and 7-segment leds? Otherwise I don't really see the point. Most tools on my bench have screens, etc. I see no point replacing them with something without screens and encoders.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on July 23, 2018, 10:17:59 pm
The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?

Warranty void, huh?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 23, 2018, 10:20:24 pm
The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?

Warranty void, huh?

YEP, I'm tellin' on you ...!  ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: tooki on July 23, 2018, 10:23:01 pm
I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
I wasn't aware the SD card was usable for that.

Seems a bit of a PITA though vs. the rotary encoder with button operated menu system in the bigger siblings.
I think it’s on purpose, so that in production it can’t be dicked around with.

This post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/considering-a-soldering-station-which-one/msg754342/#msg754342) (which is actually a reply from me to you in another thread! :p)  has a screenshot of the software for the nano/pico so you can see the options.

[Edit: corrected URL]
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: nanofrog on July 23, 2018, 10:37:46 pm
The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?

Warranty void, huh?
:-DD

Much nicer solution than splicing the ISB cable.  :-+

Perhaps PACE could sell an extension cable for those that need it?

I think it’s on purpose, so that in production it can’t be dicked around with.

This post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/considering-a-soldering-station-which-one/50/) (which is actually a reply from me to you in another thread! :p)  has a screenshot of the software for the nano/pico so you can see the options.
Could well be the reason they went that way vs. a USB port.

No explanation of Energy that I saw in the screenshot, but I presume there's a README file that comes with the software and/or thoroughly spelled out in the manual.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 23, 2018, 11:08:25 pm
Quote
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.

When you change a pot, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's gonna do SOMETHING. The wrong encode can speak complete gibberish as far as the specific device is concerned. This is not the same thing as a button failing. You can replace a switch with anything, even if the footprint doesn't work you can jumper it in and stick it somewhere.

Quote
I think you are exaggerating the problem.
My Korad PSU is an example. Worked perfectly for about 6 months or maybe a year. Now it is a struggle to change the voltage. It goes down, perfectly. When turning it up, it often goes down... very, very quickly. So you end up taking 2 steps forward 50 steps back. So 1 turn CCW reduces voltage by 10 steps... 1 turn to the CW turns the voltage down by 100's of steps.  This is what makes the encoder failure so bad. It's not like you just have to press a shoddy button a few extra times until it works. It can get to where you can't steer the boat to where you need it to go, because it only has 2 flavors of wrong. This has happened to several electronics devices I have owned. I have 3 presets on there I use, but I can't easily adjust the temp.

Quote
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair
Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer. I can't get an encoder to work as responsively and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code. There's a break point that is easily reachable by manual turning of the knob where steps are missed or interpreted wrong. And all kinds of stupid stuff CAN happen when I inadvertently turn the knob partway through a step and let go. I'll have to revisit that, later. Eletromechanical contacts make bounce, and it is possible this bounce can be indistinguishable to a digital input pin from an actual valid encoder output if you want high responsiveness). And even replacing the encoder, I'm not going to waste my time for that work, considering the first one didn't last a year. Even if identifying the exact one is possible. I have thought of replacing it with a micro that outputs a clean encoder signal (and controlling that micro with regular button switches). But the time to do that vs the $ to buy a new one, it's gonna be a long time before I encounter enough shoddy encoder programming before that pays off for the time. And I always seem to have a bigger fish to fry.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on July 23, 2018, 11:15:19 pm
With something like this, you can pull the microcontroller and write your own code.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TL866II-Plus-USB-minipro-Programmer-10-Adapter-EEPROM-FLASH-AVR-MCU-PIC-SPI/173088232681?hash=item284cdcd4e9%3Ag%3AYBwAAOSwygtan1UH&_sacat=0&_nkw=minipro+programmer+adapter&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313&LH_TitleDesc=0%7C0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/TL866II-Plus-USB-minipro-Programmer-10-Adapter-EEPROM-FLASH-AVR-MCU-PIC-SPI/173088232681?hash=item284cdcd4e9%3Ag%3AYBwAAOSwygtan1UH&_sacat=0&_nkw=minipro+programmer+adapter&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313&LH_TitleDesc=0%7C0)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 23, 2018, 11:53:39 pm
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.

I agree with this, had problems with this in the past. Requires some thinking when replacing.

Yet again, using your logic I can say ADS200 is a very unreliable product. Here how a real soldering iron should look like: https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pensol-sl963/soldering-irons-and-guns/sorny-roong-industrial/ (https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pensol-sl963/soldering-irons-and-guns/sorny-roong-industrial/) . No "moving" parts -- less chances to brake it. No unreliable leds, switches, transformers, buttons, plugs, etc. Just pure reliability. If tips are obsolete, one can make new once from a thick copper wire. Heating wire is also not a problem. There is no distracting display. It's a perfect tool for post-apocalypse era.

My Korad PSU is an example

It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke. This doesn't mean anything (scientifically speaking sample size is too small).

Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer, even I can't get an encoder to work as reliably and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code).

Just use this algorithm: https://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/rotary-encoder.html#Taming_Noisy_Rotary_Encoders (https://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/rotary-encoder.html#Taming_Noisy_Rotary_Encoders) . I tried it, works like a charm, no skipping, jumping, etc on a cheap and noisy Chineese encoder (sometimes there are more than 100 bounces per click). Or use a ready library (although nothing worked for me, so I had to roll my own).

Anyway, I think you projecting too much personal bias on this.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: KL27x on July 23, 2018, 11:55:34 pm
Yes, I have personal bias. I'm a production solderer. If you think the TS-100 is a well-designed tool, you have a different bias.

I'll check out that algorithm when I have time. I have plenty of devices I have to depend on which use encoders. And in most cases, they work fine. But I believe you are inevitably going to run into issue. Where if you turn the knob at just the right frequency, it will output noise that looks the same as a valid output when viewed through a digital filter. You will more than likely end up with a compromise that either can drop a true positive or let through a false negative every blue moon. The gray code is very simple, maybe too simple.

Quote
It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke.
The ADS is a cheap soldering station. Same price bracket. You increase the cost of parts and the complexity and hold to a low price point, and something might give. For something that only outputs 2 signals, relative up or relative down, with no absolute position/measure, the electromechanical encoder is relative pain in the rear. And I wouldn't go out of my way to incorporate an encoder (for the first time) in something where 2 buttons does just as good of a job. You would have to do a lot of testing before you know what may happen 5 years down the road. Not to say that an encoder knob can't be fun or cool or increase the enjoyment of the user. I'd just get more enjoyment knowing it will work and/or be easy to fix when it doesn't.

Here's an example: I have a name-brand router with an amazing speed control. You can belt out a pretty good rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb on it by tweaking the speed dial. It maintains constant speed in the cut, even at low speed. I have a different brand that is made in the same factory, but without the speed control; it has just a simple power dial. Functionally, the fancy speed control doesn't matter. The other router just spins up to a higher idle RPM when it's not cutting. You might argue that it will burn the wood at the beginning of the cut, but this is just theory and it has zero practical effect. The fancy one actually has a functional downside. It produces more heat at lower speed settings. Extended use at low speed setting without cooldown will actually kill the thing; says so in the manual. Yes, the fancy one is cooler and more fun to use. I love it. But I'm not a professional woodworker, and it doesn't matter to me if my router breaks or I have to give it a rest. So while yes, people are willing to pay more money for it, and it makes them happy, this doesn't mean it will produce better results, nor increase efficiency/productivity, nor be more reliable. For a production soldering station, my own bias is towards reliability, efficiency/productivity, and operational/maintenance cost. When you do something as a job*, it doesn't matter the bells or whistles. After 2 months, you won't notice them. When you hear that perfect pitch constant hum, it won't be cool, anymore. You'll want to throw it in a river, quit your job, and become a hobo, just like with any other router. But if/when it breaks and you lose a days work on it, your mood will be even worse when you're pulling an allnighter or working over the weekend after buying a new router, let alone twiddling with a godforsaken eletromechanical encoder.

*If it's monotonous and repetitive. And production soldering has to be monotonous and repetitive. It's too expensive (too many chances for mistakes) when it is not.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: JonM on July 24, 2018, 04:08:34 am
My ADS200 arrived late this afternoon, a full month (June 22 - July 23) since ordering it from TEquipment. Two weeks were probably spent in transit. I live 240 miles from the Pace factory but the ADS200 was shipped from Oregon, 3000 miles away. In any case it looks like TEquipment has a few in stock, at the moment.

I got the ISB stand, and these tips:

 1131-0055-P1 1/4" Chisel (6.35mm)
 1131-0008-P1 3/64" 30 Degree Chisel (1.20mm)
 1130-0026-P1 1/16" 30 Degree Bent Chisel (1.59mm)
 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30 Degree Chisel (2.38mm)

All of them seem to work. I think that I would prefer the bent tip to be conical rather than a chisel, I see that there is such an option and will order it at some point. It is a very fine point though.

The ADS200 replaces a Hakko FX888 (old analog, not D). Before that I had a series of Weller and Ungar soldering "stations".

My needs are minimal, I certainly do not solder every day. Besides the obvious advantages of instant heat and accurate temperature control, being able to change hot tips is fantastic. I probably only used two different tips on the Hakko, but I would often power it up and only realize that the wrong tip for the job was installed after the tip was at temperature.

I was able to solder a wire to a large piece of 0.6 mm thick of copper sheet using the 6.35 mm tip at 343C with no problem. That is great, in the past I would have had to pull out a huge direct AC mains connected iron to do that. I also soldered headers on several breakout boards and all went well.

Like Dave, the fractional inch descriptions on the tip tubes drive me (an older American) crazy. I wrote the metric equivalent on my tubes, but I will probably keep them on the stand since I have a limited number. At least Pace does include the widths in mm in their literature.


Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 24, 2018, 11:19:05 am
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
You have good eyes! I'm still curious where Vin for the 7805 comes from (it won't boot without it..) The body diodes?

*Edit - In future model updates etc..
If Pace considers a single transformer with dual winding's, they might consider internal wiring only, since a station incorrectly strapped for 120v on 240v would require 80v mosfets and good crowbar to protect (yet again another reason for SMPS as some have suggested).

I watched the video, and I think you are right, there must be a 5th mosfet somewhere (probably in the ground line) that switches the heater on or off at 0V crossing after rectification.
That means they have losses on 3 Rds_on at all time.
They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 24, 2018, 11:53:48 am
@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 24, 2018, 11:55:07 am

They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 24, 2018, 01:28:56 pm

They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
Seems true.. and Dave's traces would suggest gating times can as be short as one half cycle (see attached traces). Still, it doesn't answer my other question: What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?
Gees-Loius... I just may have to open mine up...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 24, 2018, 02:45:24 pm
What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?

I have two ideas

1) there is a separate rectifier, but I don't see it.

2) FET bridge supplies  two paths: one is to the tip, and another one to [beefy diode s560, big capacitor and 7805].
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 24, 2018, 02:47:18 pm
@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..

That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.

It does not, simple charge pump and few bipolar transistors would would do wonderfully. Or if you are really inventive, connect the source of your analog switch to ground and trafo outputs and tip heater to drains, but in that case care must be taken about powering low power electronics...
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 24, 2018, 03:08:34 pm
Those mosfets can pass up to 7a (as per datasheet), so unless I misunderstood you, that bridge supplies the tip..
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 24, 2018, 04:09:08 pm
That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...

It doesn't make sense to use fet bridge just to supply 7805: 1) current is too small 2) total voltage drop won't be smaller as 7805 will drop down to 5v. So, no benefits. Looking at traces, I think they go the handpiece connector.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 24, 2018, 06:44:38 pm

Perhaps I was unclear.
What I am saying is the fact that they need rectified signal for 7805 has nothing to do with rectifying the power for the heater. That was the crux of my comment.
If the mosfet bridge is connected as it was described on the previous page, it is always active and you always have rectified voltage, so they probably take power from there, but not necessarily. It is absolutely unimportant.

Do they take the signal after the bridge, or do they take just one diode before the bridge, to make a half wave rectifier for 7805, it makes no difference to an overall impression of inefficient design of first rectifying and then separately controlling the heater element.

And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 24, 2018, 07:09:01 pm
And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.

There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view) (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15))
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on July 24, 2018, 08:20:31 pm
Pace tip's are fully grounded and the TC is in series* with the heater. It would seem single samples must be taken across the shunt ~90 degrees after on-time zero crossings, but not more than 10sps is available on that ADC. The numbers weigh-in heavily for accuracy so, maybe that's the side benefit of having 17-bits?

Another question could be how do they measure the TC when the bridge is not gated? or do they have to? maybe the firmware auto-learns every tip by dynamic profiling (IE curves change, depending on thermal mass).

*edit - 25c resistance is generally ~4.3 ohms for high mass tips and ~4.0 for the standard. Cord ground to tip shell is milliohm's.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 25, 2018, 12:25:04 am
Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.

Quote
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.

And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?

This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on July 25, 2018, 03:58:58 am
Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.

Quote
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.

Probably in a month or 2. We're working on a a few minor tweaks. We also would like to wait a bit to see if customers find other bugs. Rather than send out 4 revisions in 3 months, we would rather wait a short period of time to see if any other issues come up, then send out a combined Rev "1-3". Make sense?

And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?

This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.

The way it works is this:
  • First of all, make sure you know the version of your software/firmware, by switching on the power button, which will immediately flash the firmware version. At this time it is "1-2".
  • Wait for PACE to announce a software revision, as it's more likely that your request could slip through the cracks since a "1-3" revision is still likely to be at least a month or 2 away.
  • Go to www.paceworldwide.com/contact-us (http://www.paceworldwide.com/contact-us), and fill out the form with your request for an the latest firmware revision for the ADS200. You might want to mention the software revision currently on your ADS unit.
  • Make sure you include a good mailing address.
  • You could also request revised software through your authorized distributor, in your case Mektronics, but note that it's up to the distributor to determine whether you are charged for shipping.
  • PACE will send a new PLCC-44 with new software along with a chip puller, free of charge.

Hope this helps,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 25, 2018, 06:38:19 am
I wish it had a usb port or sd card slot for doing upgrades.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: exe on July 25, 2018, 10:33:11 am
I'm planning a US$450 station shootout.

Please include Chinese t12 clones.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: VK4GHZ on July 26, 2018, 08:29:38 am
Well, I've ordered a JBC CD-2BE.
It was only $5 more than the ADS200, and comes with two tips.
(As much as I dislike the integrated JBC stand, and preferred the separate stand that the ADS200 has.)

I'm afraid the AUD$542 + GST pricing in Australia doesn't make the ADS200 attractive enough, considering the JBC unit is a mature product with a good track record.

I'm sure the ADS200 will, in time, build a huge fan base especially in the USA, but it really needs to be priced accordingly in other regions.
If the ADS200 were sub AUD$400 here, then it would be a no-brainer.

I'd like to say a big thank you to Aaron for his participation in this topic.
It's not everyday you get a company rep that keeps existing and potential new customers updated like he has on a forum like this.
I have no prior experience with JBC products, but Pace customer service will be hard to beat.

Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knapik on July 26, 2018, 09:10:58 am
Don't blame you, the current price listed for Mektronics is a bit out of my price range, otherwise I would've bought one myself. One day when I'm not busy, I'll try out their "100% price match guarantee" and report if I had any success or not.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: elektropionir on July 26, 2018, 04:08:29 pm
And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.

There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view) (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15))


Sorry for the late reply. I am quite busy these days....

The project you attached is really interesting, I haven't seen it before, I like the simplicity of that design. That was obviously done by competent designer....
Regarding the bold part of your comment, i think it is really not as complicated as you assume.

I have never seen pace tips, but I do assume they have similar approach like JBC, with 3 terminal cartridge where one pin is shared connection of heater/thermocouple. 
I cannot really see well on the video. Then they would need to do measurements only during off periods of the heater.

1) It would be a piece of cake for analog designer to design an amp circuit for measuring in the high branch, however there is another very simple solution with a small compromise.

2) If you limit yourself to measuring only during negative half-periods of the current from the trafo, you can keep lower mosfet (M4) off so current will not flow, and turn higher mosfet (M2) on during measuring. This would bring one pin of your heater to ground level, where you can then have your signal referred to analog ground for measuring.
This would simplify your amp design significantly, and I think 50/60Hz frequency for temperature control is more than enough.

Take care.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: knapik on July 29, 2018, 01:06:43 pm
Seems like element14 have the station listed on their website now, but without any stock. The prices are $480 AUD with the ISB stand, and $430 without.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on July 31, 2018, 04:37:50 am
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge: http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png (http://i.imgur.com/yEGGmMC.png) .

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.

Good call on the bridge.

I too was curious about how the controller works, so I decided to keep my unit and try and figure it out. I started tracing the signals over the weekend and am about halfway done; I have the ADC and MCU left.

I've attached a PDF of what I have now with some scattered notes. (Yes, the schematic is poorly laid out and messy. I'll clean it up when things start to make more sense.) I'll update the thread when I make some more headway. Hopefully somebody will find it useful.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on August 03, 2018, 01:16:48 am
Here is my latest effort. I'm leaving for the weekend, so I wanted to post this so people can think it over.

I have traced out almost all of the tracks. There are a few vias that disappear into the inner layers, so that'll take some time to figure out if they actually go somewhere I haven't mapped yet. I also need to clean up the op amp and heater drive schematics.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on August 03, 2018, 01:56:23 am
Hope Aaron doesn't pop a head-gasket on those schematics..  :scared:
Title: Mektronics sale
Post by: drojf on August 03, 2018, 01:59:15 am

The ADS200 is on 'sale' at Mektronics, so now the price is $499 (excluding GST. Was $543 previously).

PRICES BELOW EXCLUDING GST (i'm pretty sure element14 also excludes GST, correct me if I'm wrong)

Mektronics, with ISB: $499 ('sale')
(Not available yet!) Element14, with ISB: $481
(Not available yet!) Element14,   NO ISB: $435

edit: Mektronics has an ebay account, where the ADS200 costs $576.35 inc GST and free shipping. You can use the PENNY5 discount code to get it for $547.53 inc shipping (or any other ebay voucher you happen to have).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on August 03, 2018, 03:47:41 am
It's for uhh.... educational purposes only  ::)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on August 03, 2018, 03:50:06 am
Hope Aaron doesn't pop a head-gasket on those schematics..  :scared:

I can't imagine someone making a station of the same quality and support for less. Though, I suspect it won't be too long before someone makes a drop-in replacement PCB with a fancy OLED display and custom firmware. Probably increase sales if it becomes a popular unit to mod.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on August 03, 2018, 03:54:53 am
BTW TEquipment has lowered the price of the ADS200 with ISB stand to $243.80  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Shock on August 03, 2018, 05:27:40 am
BTW TEquipment has lowered the price of the ADS200 with ISB stand to $243.80  :-+

Tried the EEVblog 6% off discount code on top of that? Should work as I think they honor it on almost every other deal.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on August 13, 2018, 01:15:05 am
I finally got around to looking at this again and doing some measurements. There is just one via that I can't tell if I found where it went or not. I had to use the 4-wire probes to figure out the current shunt circuitry as the previous iteration didn't make sense. I have a couple of observations/questions about the design.

1. The MCU reset circuitry is rather complex especially considering the data sheet just suggests connecting a cap to VDD.
2. There is a good 0.4V sag on the 5V power rail while the heater is on. The sag is seen in the digital signals. I'm a bit surprised by this since there is the 1000 uF cap. Edit: It's only 20mV. I had a grounding issue.
3. Why have a flip flop control the PNP which controls the NPN which in turn controls the P-channel for heater power? Why not have the flip flop drive the NPN?
4. There is a NTC thermistor in the hand piece just below the bottom of the cartridge. I assume this is for cold-junction compensation. I haven't worked out the LM317 is doing with the thermistor, though.
5. I don't see where/how the current shunt is actually used to measure cartridge current. The op amp circuit doesn't permit it, and the multiplexer is usually passing the cold-junction analog signal while the heater is on, not the thermocouple/current shunt signal. I actually got the over current error message when I accidentally shorted the 5V and ground rails while probing.
6. Concerning the large temperature jumps shown in Dave's video, the only time I see the thermocouple voltage jump is when the heater is on which is expected for a series heater and thermocouple. I would not expect Pace to be making temperature measurements while the heater is on. While the heater is on for an extended period of time, e.g. turning on for the first time, the multiplexer does pass the thermocouple analog signal to the ADC so perhaps Pace does make thermocouple measurements which would cause the temperature to jump.  :-//
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on August 13, 2018, 02:42:23 am

2. There is a good 0.4V sag on the 5V power rail while the heater is on. The sag is seen in the digital signals. I'm a bit surprised by this since there is the 1000 uF cap.


That's surprising. How low does the VAA +30V supply go when the heater is on?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on August 13, 2018, 03:01:44 pm

2. There is a good 0.4V sag on the 5V power rail while the heater is on. The sag is seen in the digital signals. I'm a bit surprised by this since there is the 1000 uF cap.


That's surprising. How low does the VAA +30V supply go when the heater is on?

Off the top of my head I measured ~32V unloaded and 30V when the heater is on. I am going to remeasure all of the rails tonight since I have my doubts about something. I will update later.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on August 13, 2018, 03:29:52 pm
Matches my unloaded numbers. ANSI 120VAC can go as high as 126V (too close for comfort with 33.5v on 35v cap). Marco Reps says there's drop-in switch-mode parts for the 7805.. Would switching noise play well with the ICL7660 and op amps?

BTW, my 7805 is 30c cooler now..  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: mbless on August 14, 2018, 12:05:00 am
Matches my unloaded numbers. ANSI 120VAC can go as high as 126V (too close for comfort with 33.5v on 35v cap). Marco Reps says there's drop-in switch-mode parts for the 7805.. Would switching noise play well with the ICL7660 and op amps?

BTW, my 7805 is 30c cooler now..  :-+

Yes, 35V is too low. Today I measured 33V unloaded and 31V loaded. Plus it is right next to the large heat-generating 7805 :scared:.

I personally wouldn't change to an switch mode without a linear post regulator due to noise concerns. I remeasured the 5V rail and got about 20mV drop while the heater was on. I had a grounding issue before that was showing much higher voltage drop.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on August 14, 2018, 02:31:24 am
Matches my unloaded numbers. ANSI 120VAC can go as high as 126V (too close for comfort with 33.5v on 35v cap). Marco Reps says there's drop-in switch-mode parts for the 7805.. Would switching noise play well with the ICL7660 and op amps?

BTW, my 7805 is 30c cooler now..  :-+

Yes, 35V is too low. Today I measured 33V unloaded and 31V loaded. Plus it is right next to the large heat-generating 7805 :scared:.

I personally wouldn't change to an switch mode without a linear post regulator due to noise concerns. I remeasured the 5V rail and got about 20mV drop while the heater was on. I had a grounding issue before that was showing much higher voltage drop.
Whew..!  I'm glad. Since Pace gifted mine, I didn't figure I even had a warranty (especially now with all my mods)

Trivia: This Pace is so dedicated, it works during severe brown-outs.. in fact, it can solder at 33% of normal mains  :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: labjr on August 14, 2018, 03:58:16 am
Quote

Trivia:
This Pace is so dedicated, it works during severe brown-outs.. in fact, it can solder at 33% of normal mains  :-DD

I don't see how that's a selling point. I've never experienced a brown-out while soldering. If I did I'd be in the dark, most likely trying to disconnect anything of value from the mains.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on August 14, 2018, 07:20:53 am
I personally wouldn't change to an switch mode without a linear post regulator due to noise concerns.

Have a look at Recom DC to DC converters they have low noise replacements for the 7805.
This is the one I was looking at (for another application) but they do them in higher input voltages as well.

R-785.0-0.5
https://mouser.com/datasheet/2/468/R-78xx-0.5-958374.pdf
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on August 14, 2018, 11:56:08 am
Quote

Trivia:
This Pace is so dedicated, it works during severe brown-outs.. in fact, it can solder at 33% of normal mains  :-DD

I don't see how that's a selling point. I've never experienced a brown-out while soldering. If I did I'd be in the dark, most likely trying to disconnect anything of value from the mains.
That was humor (based on Vin/Vout that 7805 has to drop..)  ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on August 14, 2018, 01:18:31 pm
Wow, did treez design that thing? Looks almost improvised.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on August 14, 2018, 02:31:01 pm
Wow, did treez design that thing? Looks almost improvised.
That's a compliment.. isn't he due to finish primary school soon?  :-//
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on September 01, 2018, 02:51:04 am
Testing driving 1.3 firmware today, display update's smooth (no more hi-lo or too fast to read stuff). I can clearly read overshoot-undershoot values, but even soaked sponge-dunking, it's not off by more by 12c during a 2 second recovery.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on September 06, 2018, 01:11:43 pm
Update. During the last week I caught a glimpse of chatter between beta testers and responsiveness of the software team. I even had a nit-pick over ISB wake-up and Pace included that too. I don't know when I'll receive my next PLCC, but they do listen  :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 06, 2018, 02:32:48 pm
Update. During the last week I caught a glimpse of chatter between beta testers and responsiveness of the software team. I even had a nit-pick over ISB wake-up and Pace included that too. I don't know when I'll receive my next PLCC, but they do listen  :-+

Cliff,

They'll be an update probably by early next week, so you should receive a new PLCC Chip (and chip puller) by the week after.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on September 11, 2018, 08:18:29 pm
Update. During the last week I caught a glimpse of chatter between beta testers and responsiveness of the software team. I even had a nit-pick over ISB wake-up and Pace included that too. I don't know when I'll receive my next PLCC, but they do listen  :-+

Cliff,

They'll be an update probably by early next week, so you should receive a new PLCC Chip (and chip puller) by the week after.

Aaron
Aaron I'm not so concerned for that update.. I am more concerned for Pace families braving the arrival of Hurricane Florence!
Please take care down there!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on September 12, 2018, 06:17:38 pm
@PACE-Worldwide
When you guys will ship the product that includes this update to distributors? Is it another couple months?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 13, 2018, 05:30:24 am
@PACE-Worldwide
When you guys will ship the product that includes this update to distributors? Is it another couple months?

Distributors are notified and provided with new chips when the updates are officially released. But I'll post a notice here with instructions on how to obtain an update firmware revision (which are provided to existing customers free of charge), probably next week.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on September 13, 2018, 05:51:25 am
Honestly i do not believe many distributors would enthusiastically open hundreds of boxes and change the firmware chips, unless they are maybe obligated to do so by contract with Pace.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 13, 2018, 11:50:35 am
Honestly i do not believe many distributors would enthusiastically open hundreds of boxes and change the firmware chips, unless they are maybe obligated to do so by contract with Pace.

Unfortunately, you are correct. But since these are simple tweaks to the firmware that enhance usability, it won't matter that much except to the most discerning customer. In any case, if a customer requests an update, they will receive the new set of chips.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: glarsson on September 13, 2018, 11:54:02 am
Why not upgrade through the USB port?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on September 13, 2018, 11:55:09 am
Why not upgrade through the USB port?

I don't think it has a USB port.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 13, 2018, 11:57:30 am
Why not upgrade through the USB port?

I wish the ADS200 had a USB port! But it does not. You have to unscrew the front panel, remove a socketed PLCC chip, then replace with the new firmware chip. Yep, we acknowledge it's a hassle.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: glarsson on September 13, 2018, 12:55:07 pm
I know about the missing USB port. I just don't know why Pace is making it more difficult and expensive for itself. Firmware update by pulling chips, slotted screw and nut (not production friendly) to attach voltage regular to heatsink and so on. Weird.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 13, 2018, 02:06:12 pm
I know about the missing USB port. I just don't know why Pace is making it more difficult and expensive for itself. Firmware update by pulling chips, slotted screw and nut (not production friendly) to attach voltage regular to heatsink and so on. Weird.

Not weird at all. We were able to achieve the extremely low price point of the ADS200 by using the same basic pc board for multiple products, simply by adding or subtracting certain components. So this board is used in several other products such as our desoldering stations. It's a proven board design that has been ultra reliable since 2009. That's why there seems to be a huge amount of space on certain parts of the pcb. The extruded case is also used in multiple products. Adding new elements to the design (i.e. USB port) would add significant cost to the overall product, so we decided it was better (and far less costly to the customer) to go with the older design. Make sense?

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on September 13, 2018, 02:09:23 pm
Once the product matures , the usb port will not be needed. I never used USB on my JBC station since bought it maybe 3 of 4 years back. I do not think was any upgrade repeased which was worth doing it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: alank2 on September 13, 2018, 02:11:32 pm
I agree; and as long as Pace is willing to send out a chip update at no charge I certainly don't mind changing it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: glarsson on September 13, 2018, 02:39:39 pm
But what about the screw holding the heatsink? The cost of upgrading it to a more production friendly variant (e.g. Torx) would be low and would reduce production cost.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 13, 2018, 02:54:04 pm
But what about the screw holding the heatsink? The cost of upgrading it to a more production friendly variant (e.g. Torx) would be low and would reduce production cost.

I'll send the message to our Engineering.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 14, 2018, 03:54:33 pm
I've order a unit for myself at TEquipment, but it's stuck somewhere in US due to the odd way they do shipping into Canada :(
Anyhow, it just occured to me - in case of any warranty issues, does anyone knows if PACE has any representation/service workshop in Canada, or stuff will have to be shipped into US should any problem appear? If the latter is the case, shipping costs of turnaround for a base unit due to weight will likely be a significant fraction of a unit retail price.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on September 14, 2018, 03:58:41 pm
I've order a unit for myself at TEquipment, but it's stuck somewhere in US due to the odd way they do shipping into Canada :(
Anyhow, it just occured to me - in case of any warranty issues, does anyone knows if PACE has any representation/service workshop in Canada, or stuff will have to be shipped into US should any problem appear? If the latter is the case, shipping costs of turnaround for a base unit due to weight will likely be a significant fraction of a unit retail price.

Maybe they would let you remove and send in the main board since there isn't much else to go wrong?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 14, 2018, 04:17:36 pm
I've order a unit for myself at TEquipment, but it's stuck somewhere in US due to the odd way they do shipping into Canada :(
Anyhow, it just occured to me - in case of any warranty issues, does anyone knows if PACE has any representation/service workshop in Canada, or stuff will have to be shipped into US should any problem appear? If the latter is the case, shipping costs of turnaround for a base unit due to weight will likely be a significant fraction of a unit retail price.

Outside of the US, we sell and service through our local authorized distributors in that country. But since you are buying through Tequipment, a US company, it complicates it a bit because you have have to either deal directly with PACE or Tequipment in the States if there is a problem. It's easier to deal with Arbell or Accessotronik (our primary Canadian distributors) as they can easily replace items then get PACE to reimburse, than to deal long distance with a US company. But no distributor is going to want to support a customer who bought from his competitor. I realize that you may get a better deal by purchasing through a US distributor, but you do risk incurring those shipping costs and turn-around lead times if you decide to do so. On the bright side, it's rare that we have to fulfill warranty claims where we require the customer send back the product as this is time consuming and costly to both the customer and PACE.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 14, 2018, 04:38:56 pm
Thanks for your quick response!
Outside of the US, we sell and service through our local authorized distributors in that country. But since you are buying through Tequipment, a US company, it complicates it a bit because you have have to either deal directly with PACE or Tequipment in the States if there is a problem. It's easier to deal with Arbell or Accessotronik (our primary Canadian distributors) as they can easily replace items then get PACE to reimburse, than to deal long distance with a US company. But no distributor is going to want to support a customer who bought from his competitor. I realize that you may get a better deal by purchasing through a US distributor, but you do risk incurring those shipping costs and turn-around lead times if you decide to do so.
Actually my decision to order at Tequipment didn't have anything to do with the price. I've checked both these distributors' websites, and the former one (Arbell) didn't seem to have ADS200 in stock, while the latter's website did not inspire much confidence (not working currency switch - I couldn't figure out if the price they are showing is in US or Canadian dollars), so TEQ was the only one that actually had a working website which they actually wanted their customers to use, had units in stock and shipping charges were not that large. I will admit that it was a bit of an impulse buy after my current soldering station called quits on me in the middle of the soldering - normally I'd called Accessotronik to sort out all questions (especially so since they seem to have a location in Toronto, which is about 1 hr drive away from me). Oh well, it's too late now - money are paid, the stuff is shipped and is stuck somewhere in IL for the last couple of days, but I hope it will make its way to me eventually.

On the bright side, it's rare that we have to fulfill warranty claims where we require the customer send back the product as this is time consuming and costly to both the customer and PACE.
Well I guess I will have to find out at my own expense if once-revered "Made in USA" quality is still worth anything nowadays ;)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 14, 2018, 04:43:18 pm
Thanks for your quick response!

Well I guess I will have to find out at my own expense if once-revered "Made in USA" quality is still worth anything nowadays ;)

We'll make it worth your while!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on September 14, 2018, 04:48:31 pm
Accessotronic only has a guy in Toronto, not equipment stock. The warehouse is in Montreal i believe.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 19, 2018, 01:58:36 am
Finally received the unit and tips today. Didn't have time to give it a good run yet (just soldered few things mostly to see if it's working OK), but so far so good.
BUT - I wasn't impressed with the packaging. I don't know if it's PACE's fault, TEQ, Borderfree, or DHL, but the packaging leaves something to be desired. The main unit's bag was all torn apart and pieces of it were just dangling on the corners of unit, the tips (they were shipped in a separate box with just them and big airbags) were out of their plastic tubes and all over the box. I had to fish one of the tips from under the carton flap on the bottom of the box. After such treatment it was somewhat ironic to see that some of the tubes contained soft cushions seemingly to protect fine tips ;D

But to PACE's credit, despite some obviously brutal treatment the unit and tips received on their way to me everything seems to work great and the main unit looks undamaged! So hats off to PACE - that unit is built like a tank and acts like one too! :-+

I have one question though - I couldn't figure out what the stuff on attached photo is for. I tried to download the manual, but the link to user manual on your product page (https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200) is broken and leads to nowhere (404). I've found a link to user manual in the quickstart guide, but there is nothing regarding these things. I know this is quite possibly a really dump question, or maybe my brain doesn't work well that late in the evening, but still I would like to know what it's for ::)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 19, 2018, 02:26:38 am
Finally received the unit and tips today. Didn't have time to give it a good run yet (just soldered few things mostly to see if it's working OK), but so far so good.
BUT - I wasn't impressed with the packaging. I don't know if it's PACE's fault, TEQ, Borderfree, or DHL, but the packaging leaves something to be desired. The main unit's bag was all torn apart and pieces of it were just dangling on the corners of unit, the tips (they were shipped in a separate box with just them and big airbags) were out of their plastic tubes and all over the box. I had to fish one of the tips from under the carton flap on the bottom of the box. After such treatment it was somewhat ironic to see that some of the tubes contained soft cushions seemingly to protect fine tips ;D

The Main Box with the unit is PACE's packaging so we take full responsibility the crappy packaging. But the box of tips is TEquipment's responsibility, as they pull the tips from stock and then box them up.

I have one question though - I couldn't figure out what the stuff on attached photo is for. I tried to download the manual, but the link to user manual on your product page is broken and leads to nowhere (404). I've found a link to user manual in the quickstart guide, but there is nothing regarding these things. through the holes and secured on the inside of the Stand with the thumb I know this is quite possibly a really dump question, or maybe my brain doesn't work well that late in the evening, but still I would like to know what it's for ::)

That set of hardware for attaching the provided Tip & Tool Stand to either side of the ADS200 Power Supply, and can also be used to mate multiple Tip & Tool Stands together. If you look on either side of the Tool Stand, you'll see 2 holes - the screws are inserted through the outside holes and secured with the plastic thumbscrews inside the Tool Stand (they should only be half-tightened at this point). The head of the screws are then slid from the back of the unit through the "T-Slot" Extrusions on either side of the Power Supply. Then the thumbscrews are fully tightened and voila, your Tool Stand is firmly connected to the Power Supply rather than free standing! Frankly, only about .05% of customers actually attach the Tool Stand to the side of the unit, as it's much more flexible to use them free-standing, but we include the hardware anyway, just in case.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 19, 2018, 02:49:28 am
The Main Box with the unit is PACE's packaging so we take full responsibility the crappy packaging.
To be honest, the main unit looks like it doesn't need any bag around it as it's so durable :-+  I guess it just rubbed against holding carton pieces which did not hold the unit secure enough to withstand the rigors of shipping. I didn't find any damage, it just looked a bit like...what I expect a cheap-ass chinese soldering station to look like if you know what I mean. The power of first impression and all that ::)
 
That set of hardware for attaching the provided Tip & Tool Stand to either side of the ADS200 Power Supply, and can also be used to mate multiple Tip & Tool Stands together. If you look on either side of the Tool Stand, you'll see 2 holes - the screws are inserted through the outside holes and secured with the plastic thumbscrews inside the Tool Stand (they should only be half-tightened at this point). The head of the screws are then slid from the back of the unit through the "T-Slot" Extrusions on either side of the Power Supply. Then the thumbscrews are fully tightened and voila, your Tool Stand is firmly connected to the Power Supply rather than free standing! Frankly, only about .05% of customers actually attach the Tool Stand to the side of the unit, as it's much more flexible to use them free-standing, but we include the hardware anyway, just in case.
Thanks, you might want to add this information into user manual specifically for dumbasses like me ::) I actually do prefer it free-standing too due to the way things are laid out on my desk.
Last question - my work desk is somewhat crowded, so ISB cable goes near exhaust vent of desktop reflow oven which blows out hot air for a short time during cooldown phase of reflow profile. Is that cable temperature-resistant (like pencil's cable is), or I will need to rearrange my stuff somehow to make sure it doesn't get anywhere near where hot air can be?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 19, 2018, 02:55:32 am

Last question - my work desk is somewhat crowded, so ISB cable goes near exhaust vent of desktop reflow oven which blows out hot air for a short time during cooldown phase of reflow profile. Is that cable temperature-resistant (like pencil's cable is), or I will need to rearrange my stuff somehow to make sure it doesn't get anywhere near where hot air can be?

That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 19, 2018, 03:03:33 am
That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.

Aaron
Thank you very much for your prompt responses - I really appreciate this! This is very refreshing after dealing with manufacturers on the other side of the globe, with usual turnaround times of a day due to time zone difference! :-+
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on September 19, 2018, 05:53:09 am
That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.

Aaron
Thank you very much for your prompt responses - I really appreciate this! This is very refreshing after dealing with manufacturers on the other side of the globe, with usual turnaround times of a day due to time zone difference! :-+

What tips did you get Asmi?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 19, 2018, 12:49:10 pm
What tips did you get Asmi?
1/128" Conical (0.20mm) - 1130-0036-P1
1/32" 30 Degree Chisel (0.80mm) - 1131-0012-P1
1/16" 30 Degree Chisel (1.59mm) - 1131-0019-P1
1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30 Degree (0.40mm) - 1131-0003-P1
13/64" Chisel (5.15mm) - 1131-0010-P1

I do a lot of super fine components (like 0201, 0402 and DFN/QFN/QFP with 0.4 or 0.5 mm pitch), so most of these tips are quite fine.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 19, 2018, 03:21:31 pm
That's a great question! I have no idea but I'll test it out tomorrow when I get to PACE and get back to you. I really don't know.

Aaron
Thank you very much for your prompt responses - I really appreciate this! This is very refreshing after dealing with manufacturers on the other side of the globe, with usual turnaround times of a day due to time zone difference! :-+

Hi asmi,

I tested out the ISB Tool Stand cord this morning by applying the TD-200 Iron set at max temp (850°F/454°C) and touching the cord for 15 seconds. Yep, it's heat resistant and was not damaged in any way. According to our engineers, the wires are sheathed in the very same burn-proof ESD-safe silicone sleeves that we use on all our other handpieces.

By the way, concerning the fine point tips you use, you may want to try out our 1/128"/0.20mm Conical, Special Tip Heater Cartridge PN 1130-0050-P1:

www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td200-standard-blue-series-tips/1128020mm-conical-special-tip-heater-cartridge (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/td200-standard-blue-series-tips/1128020mm-conical-special-tip-heater-cartridge)

This tip is almost identical to the 1/128" Conical Tip Heater Cartridge PN 1130-0036-P1 you are using, but it has been slightly beveled on the working end so that it transfers heat better and was designed specifically for a hearing aid manufacturer for 0201 soldering. When you look at the photo, you really can't tell but that subtle modification makes a difference.

Aaron 
 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on September 19, 2018, 04:21:00 pm
I tested out the ISB Tool Stand cord this morning by applying the TD-200 Iron set at max temp (850°F/454°C) and touching the cord for 15 seconds. Yep, it's heat resistant and was not damaged in any way. According to our engineers, the wires are sheathed in the very same burn-proof ESD-safe silicone sleeves that we use on all our other handpieces.
Thanks for the update! It's good to know!

By the way, concerning the fine point tips you use, you may want to try out our 1/128"/0.20mm Conical, Special Tip Heater Cartridge PN 1130-0050-P1:
I will look into this, but I think I will have to wait for these to show up in stock at your canadian distributors because paying 42 CAD for shipping of 15 CAD item don't seem sensible to me. And it's not currently in stock at TEQ anyway.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: xtech on September 28, 2018, 11:41:28 am
Can I use MT-100 MiniTweez with ADS200? This was mentioned in this thread but I've never seen any confirmation on Pace homepage.

Second question: are there any tips included in the 8007-0580?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on September 28, 2018, 12:36:45 pm
Can I use MT-100 MiniTweez with ADS200? This was mentioned in this thread but I've never seen any confirmation on Pace homepage.

Unfortunately not. The MT-100 MiniTweez is only compatible with "IntellHeat" powered PACE handpieces, meaning it has a different connector and runs on older PACE stations (ST 30, ST 50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350). The ADS200 uses "AccuDrive" temperature control, which uses a different connector. Also, while IntelliHeat powered tip-heater cartridges look almost identical to AccuDrive Tips, they both run on completely different voltages. Thus, if you plug an IntelliHeat Tip Cartridge into an AccuDrive TD-200 Handpiece, the IntelliHeat cartridge will work for a time ... then burn out within hours. We had to completely redesign the internal structure of ADS Tip Cartridges to achieve the higher wattage of AccuDrive Tips (80 versus 120 Watts).

On the positive side, we have a completely redesigned/much improved AccuDrive version of the MT-100 MiniTweez handpiece in development that will be available in late Jan ... Can't give you details yet but the prototype looks awesome! 


Second question: are there any tips included in the 8007-0580?

At the present time, none of our ADS200 configurations come with tips. Since the ADS200 is very price sensitive, we did not want to add an extra $11 (£9/€11) to the list price. In the next few months, we are planning to introduce a version of the ADS200 that comes with 3 tips.

Hope this answers your questions.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Dhekhanur on September 29, 2018, 08:07:30 pm
I know there is the option to add the self-made ISB later to the stand but is an "upgrade kit" or spare part(s) available to convert a standard stand to an ISB model by pace as a spare stand would be useless for me? Whether due to lack of interest, no demand or something else I seem to be able to get a non-ISB model very quickly but ISB model would have to be ordered from the states (230V).
thanks for your time
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 02:50:01 pm
I know there is the option to add the self-made ISB later to the stand but is an "upgrade kit" or spare part(s) available to convert a standard stand to an ISB model by pace as a spare stand would be useless for me? Whether due to lack of interest, no demand or something else I seem to be able to get a non-ISB model very quickly but ISB model would have to be ordered from the states (230V).
thanks for your time

Hi Dhekhanur,

While we were late in producing the ISB version of the ADS200, it has been readily available since the end of June. So this is likely a decision made on the part of our authorized distributor in Finland (Prodi Oy, if that is the distributor you are using). They simply stocked up on the non-ISB model rather than buy the ISB version, which seems to be gaining some popularity. I will contact our UK office, to discuss with the European Regional Sales Manager and get back to you.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 04:06:58 pm
I know there is the option to add the self-made ISB later to the stand but is an "upgrade kit" or spare part(s) available to convert a standard stand to an ISB model by pace as a spare stand would be useless for me? Whether due to lack of interest, no demand or something else I seem to be able to get a non-ISB model very quickly but ISB model would have to be ordered from the states (230V).
thanks for your time

Hi Dhekhanur,

While we were late in producing the ISB version of the ADS200, it has been readily available since the end of June. So this is likely a decision made on the part of our authorized distributor in Finland (Prodi Oy, if that is the distributor you are using). They simply stocked up on the non-ISB model rather than buy the ISB version, which seems to be gaining some popularity. I will contact our UK office, to discuss with the European Regional Sales Manager and get back to you.

Aaron

I contacted the PACE UK Office, and The ADS200 with ISB Tool Stand (230VAC) PN 8007-0581 is available direct from our paceworldwide.com website (definitely in stock) or via Farnell (sales@farnell.co.uk). If you buy direct from PACE, you will have to register by going to any product page and pushing the blue button on the right that says "Login/Register here ...".

If you have any questions please contact the PACE Europe LTD offices at

PACE Europe, LTD
11 Holdom Avenue
Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire
MK1 1QU, United Kingdom
+44 1908 277666
dwinship@paceworldwide.com

Hope this helps,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on October 01, 2018, 04:30:06 pm
Any reason Pace doesn't make the ISB switch/cable assembly available as an upgrade or replacement part?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 04:37:19 pm
Any reason Pace doesn't make the ISB switch/cable assembly available as an upgrade or replacement part?

Yes, we do. The Instant SetBack (ISB) Tip & Tool Stand for TD-200 (and TD-100A) PN 6019-0089-P1 is compatible with any PACE station that has an ISB connector on the back panel of the power supply (ST 30, ST50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350 and ADS200):

www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A)

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on October 01, 2018, 04:40:53 pm

Yes, we do. The Instant SetBack (ISB) Tip & Tool Stand for TD-200 (and TD-100A) PN 6019-0089-P1 is compatible with any PACE station that has an ISB connector on the back panel of the power supply (ST 30, ST50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350 and ADS200):

www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A)

Aaron

I meant just the switch and cable assembly.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 04:52:13 pm

Yes, we do. The Instant SetBack (ISB) Tip & Tool Stand for TD-200 (and TD-100A) PN 6019-0089-P1 is compatible with any PACE station that has an ISB connector on the back panel of the power supply (ST 30, ST50, ST 70, ST 100, MBT 301, MBT 350 and ADS200):

www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instant-setback-tip-and-tool-stand-for-td200-and-TD100A)

Aaron

I meant just the switch and cable assembly.

Oh sorry. No, we don't make that available although there were some discussions of making one available.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: dkggpeters on October 01, 2018, 07:28:01 pm
On the positive side, we have a completely redesigned/much improved AccuDrive version of the MT-100 MiniTweez handpiece in development that will be available in late Jan ... Can't give you details yet but the prototype looks awesome! 

Hopefully this does not continue getting pushed out.  Was hoping for Oct/Nov, but Jan will do.

What is the current firmware version?  And is a new one going to be issued soon?  I just received a unit and waiting to see if I should request new firmware now or just wait a bit.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 07:35:13 pm
On the positive side, we have a completely redesigned/much improved AccuDrive version of the MT-100 MiniTweez handpiece in development that will be available in late Jan ... Can't give you details yet but the prototype looks awesome! 

What is the current firmware version?  And is a new one going to be issued soon?  I just received a unit and waiting to see if I should request new firmware now or just wait a bit.

We are about to announce a Firmware Rev "1-4" later on in the week. At that time, I will give instructions as to how any PACE customers on EEVBlog with Rev 1-1, 1-2 or 1-3 can obtain a free upgrade.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Dhekhanur on October 01, 2018, 07:41:46 pm
Hi Aaron,
Thanks for the quick reply. I am sorry to hear that there is no official way to convert a standard TD-100A/TD-200 stand to an ISB model (I do not count purchasing the isb stand a conversion as what i meant was indeed cable and pcb/switch only). I expected this to be the case but nevertheless it never hurts to ask.

At the time I checked the ISB version of the ADS200 was not stocked by Farnell however it seems it now is so thanks for that.

Lastly is there a sheet or list of all consumeables compiled for the ADS200 specifically even if the customer may not treat it as such. The O-rings come to mind. In this case. (in contrast to the obvious sponge and brass wool.

Added later: While you may or may not be able to confirm this is a SX-100 analogue planned for the accudrive equivalent of the st-115 or st-75 or whatever
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 08:34:02 pm

Lastly is there a sheet or list of all consumeables compiled for the ADS200 specifically even if the customer may not treat it as such. The O-rings come to mind. In this case. (in contrast to the obvious sponge and brass wool.

Added later: While you may or may not be able to confirm this is a SX-100 analogue planned for the accudrive equivalent of the st-115 or st-75 or whatever

Please see the attached ADS200 Price Lists (see below) including current list pricing for all 4 currencies we sell into including US$, £, € and what we call "Export" pricing which is US$ pricing in Asia (this includes Australia & New Zealand). The TD-200 O-Ring PN 1213-0090-P5 (pkg of 5 each) is not on any of the lists but has list pricing of US$3.57/£2.84/€3.50 and "Export" pricing of US$3.80 per pack of 5:

www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td200-td100a-and-td100-replacement-o-rings (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/spare-parts/td200-td100a-and-td100-replacement-o-rings)

Concerning the SX-100, there will likely be an analog created for our upcoming new rework station that will replace the MBT 350, but this is "on the drawing board" and whether an AccuDrive version is designed will not be decided upon until 2nd quarter, next year.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Dhekhanur on October 01, 2018, 08:45:19 pm
Thank you for the quick reply. It is exciting to hear you guys working on a successor to the MBT-350 even if I myself as a hobbyist will never have a use case for it.

First of all please give yourself a pat on the back as your contributions in this thread in particular has conviced me that when I need a soldering station the Pace ADS200 will be the leading candidate in my mind.

Secondly thanks for reposting the price sheets of tips and stations but maybe I confused spare parts with consumables as those are what I was expecting. Maybe it might be worth it to make a list or speadsheet or whatever to list all currently compatible spare parts for the ads200 not neccessarily with prices just the title and product number would help a lot as the spare parts section of the website well let's say it could be improved upon
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 01, 2018, 09:23:14 pm
Thank you for the quick reply. It is exciting to hear you guys working on a successor to the MBT-350 even if I myself as a hobbyist will never have a use case for it.

First of all please give yourself a pat on the back as your contributions in this thread in particular has conviced me that when I need a soldering station the Pace ADS200 will be the leading candidate in my mind.

Secondly thanks for reposting the price sheets of tips and stations but maybe I confused spare parts with consumables as those are what I was expecting. Maybe it might be worth it to make a list or speadsheet or whatever to list all currently compatible spare parts for the ads200 not neccessarily with prices just the title and product number would help a lot as the spare parts section of the website well let's say it could be improved upon

We're working on a brand spanking new website that is due to be launched in January to improve upon the rather inadequate spare parts situation on our site. Right now our website is built on a very old platform called Drupal, which is extremely outdated and the site is extremely difficult to modify. But we hear you and will strive to make it better ... Thanks for the comments!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Dhekhanur on October 02, 2018, 01:36:55 pm
Thanks, that's the best news ever.

If you are taking requests for the new site here I have a suggestion for you to think about: While I'm not your target demographic as a hobbyist please consider contrasting the different handpieces on the new site as currently I have no idea what they excel at, are merely good at and for which you should consider this other handpiece. The different tweezers and hot air pencils spring to mind.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: dkggpeters on October 10, 2018, 12:22:22 pm

We are about to announce a Firmware Rev "1-4" later on in the week. At that time, I will give instructions as to how any PACE customers on EEVBlog with Rev 1-1, 1-2 or 1-3 can obtain a free upgrade.

Aaron

Any status on the update?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 10, 2018, 12:43:01 pm

We are about to announce a Firmware Rev "1-4" later on in the week. At that time, I will give instructions as to how any PACE customers on EEVBlog with Rev 1-1, 1-2 or 1-3 can obtain a free upgrade.

Aaron

Any status on the update?

I'll have something for you later on today.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 11, 2018, 01:29:14 pm
ADS200 Firmware Update Rev 1-4 now available

Finally, I’m getting ready to send out a new “1-4” ADS200 firmware PLCC-44 chip. If you would like to try it out, free of charge, please send me a message with a good shipping address and email. Also mention if you need a Chip Puller to remove the PLCC, as I will provide that too. See the attached ADS200-chip-change.pdf file I have attached below for installation instructions. It's pretty straight forward.

The differences between Rev 1-3 (only sent to a few beta testers) and Rev 1-4 are minimal but the differences between Rev 1-1 or 1-2 are significant. The new firmware takes care of several nagging issues reported in EEVBlog:
Shipping to US customers is a breeze, but outside of the US may take more time as we have to gather customs paperwork, etc.

I think you'll like the changes in the ADS200, so message me if you want the new chip sent!

Best,

Aaron





Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: hrbngr on October 16, 2018, 02:24:25 am
Aaron,

thanks for the update on the firmware. In your opinion, what would be a good time frame to wait for TEquipment or similar sites to be shipping ADS200 units with Rev 1-4 firmware already installed?

I have personally been waiting for TEquipment to get a few more tips in stock before placing my order, so I don't mind waiting a bit longer before my purchase.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Moises on October 17, 2018, 06:10:12 am
Msg sent Aaron :)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: dkggpeters on October 23, 2018, 07:37:20 pm
Aaron,

Thank you very much for sending the firmware update and goodies.   Much appreciated.  Everything works perfectly.

Dave
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: asmi on October 23, 2018, 09:15:45 pm
Sent PM too. I hope it's not too late ::)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 24, 2018, 12:53:33 am
Sent PM too. I hope it's not too late ::)

It's never too late!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PixieWrestler on October 25, 2018, 05:01:28 pm
I’ve been looking for a good station for a new robotics program.  Since these will be used by numerous kids who are new to soldering, they have to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t mind paying for quality, but, since we need multiple stations, the tips need to be be durable and reasonably priced. It came down to the Hakko fx888d or Pace ads200.

I bought an ADS200, it appeared to be overshooting the temp, but then I saw Dave’s video. Hopefully the new firmware will address this.

Now I just need to get some different tips, I have a lot of projects stacked up to solder and test.

Thanks for the excellent forum, it is invaluable. I finally created an account so I can hopefully give something back!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 25, 2018, 06:45:07 pm
I’ve been looking for a good station for a new robotics program.  Since these will be used by numerous kids who are new to soldering, they have to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t mind paying for quality, but, since we need multiple stations, the tips need to be be durable and reasonably priced. It came down to the Hakko fx888d or Pace ads200.

I bought an ADS200, it appeared to be overshooting the temp, but then I saw Dave’s video. Hopefully the new firmware will address this.

Now I just need to get some different tips, I have a lot of projects stacked up to solder and test.

Thanks for the excellent forum, it is invaluable. I finally created an account so I can hopefully give something back!

The new "1-4" firmware should resolve the display overshoot issue. I'll be send a new Chip out next week.

Thanks,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on October 25, 2018, 11:10:17 pm
I’ve been looking for a good station for a new robotics program.  Since these will be used by numerous kids who are new to soldering, they have to be reliable and easy to use. I don’t mind paying for quality, but, since we need multiple stations, the tips need to be be durable and reasonably priced. It came down to the Hakko fx888d or Pace ads200.

Congrats PixieWrestler, I think you made a good choice. The ADS200 has the extra power availability, doing connectors or any high thermal mass joints will be a breeze. As the kids improve in skill, perfect iron for fine smd work and good ergonomics for small hands (and adults).

What country is your program based in?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PixieWrestler on October 26, 2018, 05:16:39 am

Congrats PixieWrestler, I think you made a good choice. The ADS200 has the extra power availability, doing connectors or any high thermal mass joints will be a breeze. As the kids improve in skill, perfect iron for fine smd work and good ergonomics for small hands (and adults).

What country is your program based in?

Thanks Shock!  We are in the USA. I am very impressed with Pace’s response to the minor nuisance of the temp display.
For the first unit, I didn’t get the auto setback upgrade, I can’t decide if that is something we’ll need for the additional units.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on October 26, 2018, 08:27:09 am
Thanks Shock!  We are in the USA. I am very impressed with Pace’s response to the minor nuisance of the temp display. For the first unit, I didn’t get the auto setback upgrade, I can’t decide if that is something we’ll need for the additional units.

It just gives you more flexibility for stop/start soldering. Now with the 1-4 firmware it's configurable so that instant setback can be set to go low temp immediately as you return the iron. The other advantage is you pull the iron out of the stand and it tells the station it's go time again (as opposed to cleaning the tip or pressing a button). People who always tin their tips properly before returning the iron to the stand might prefer it as well.

It's not essential but you could always try it and if you don't like the stand tethered to the station disconnect or remove the cable later.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on October 26, 2018, 04:09:29 pm
Does anyone know if current stock at TEquipment contains the latest firmware?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on October 26, 2018, 06:05:32 pm
I called TEquipment. They confirmed with Pace that the recent shipment shipment of ADS200 with instant setback stand DOES contain the most recent firmware.

BTW their website shows no stock but they actually have 16 units. Maybe call to confirm if you wish to place an order.

 
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 29, 2018, 07:45:39 pm
I called TEquipment. They confirmed with Pace that the recent shipment shipment of ADS200 with instant setback stand DOES contain the most recent firmware.

BTW their website shows no stock but they actually have 16 units. Maybe call to confirm if you wish to place an order.

Sorry for the delay in answering this ... was at 2 Trade Shows the last 2 weeks, so I've been shirking my duties. In any case, I called TEquipment this morning, and they confirmed that they only have the newest versions of ADS200. So all the stock they have at the present time should have Firmware Rev 1-4.

Again, please message me if you need the latest firmware Rev 1-4, and I'll ship it out.

Thanks again,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: hrbngr on October 29, 2018, 11:12:55 pm
labjr/Aaron,

thanks for the updates on TEquipment inventory for the newest firmwar ADS200s. A question for the those that purchase from them, do u know if there will be any sort of Black Friday sale (based on previous years) that might surpass the regular forum discount?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on October 30, 2018, 01:26:05 am
labjr/Aaron,

thanks for the updates on TEquipment inventory for the newest firmwar ADS200s. A question for the those that purchase from them, do u know if there will be any sort of Black Friday sale (based on previous years) that might surpass the regular forum discount?

Aaron mentioned a while ago that the margins are pretty tight on the Pace ADS200, but you could try hitting Evan up from Tequipment.net who is the on the forum here, to see if there is any special above our regular 6% off and free shipping he can do. Who knows he might be able to throw in a free tip or something.

Evans username on the forums is tequipment (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=690) I think he has email notifications on so should see he has been messaged.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: joeqsmith on October 30, 2018, 01:55:30 am
How are the tweezers coming along?   The blue rubber on the ones I use are now shot.  The rubber has started to fall apart and it's very sticky.   I looked on PACE's site along with Jensen Tools to get a new set and it seems that no parts are available for the tweezers beyond the tips.  At $200, I would expect to be able to maintain them.   Hope when/if you produce tweezers for the new station, you keep that same size and feel plus offer replacement parts.   
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on October 30, 2018, 02:26:07 am
How are the tweezers coming along?   The blue rubber on the ones I use are now shot.  The rubber has started to fall apart and it's very sticky.   I looked on PACE's site along with Jensen Tools to get a new set and it seems that no parts are available for the tweezers beyond the tips.  At $200, I would expect to be able to maintain them.   Hope when/if you produce tweezers for the new station, you keep that same size and feel plus offer replacement parts.

You're right about the lack of replacement parts for the MT-100. But we do have replacement grips for your handpiece. It's called the MT-100 Lead-Free Soft Grips PN 1119-0177-P2 ($41.47 pair) and they only come in "lead-free green" color as we can no supply the original blue colored grip.

We are still working on an ADS200-compatible thermal tweezer that will be introduced at late January's IPC Apex Show in San Diego.

I'll pass your comments on to the PACE team.

Thanks,

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on November 06, 2018, 11:55:34 am
Just upgraded the firmware of my ADS200 stations to 1-4 thanks Aaron and Pace!
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: knapik on November 15, 2018, 04:41:10 am
Looks like I finally got my new toy in the mail ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/VuZ6weO.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: VEGETA on November 15, 2018, 06:24:57 am
Just a simple question guys, what is the benefit of this one over Hakko fx-888d?

I got the hakko as a present from my brother which is gonna replace my beloved Chinese Yihua 908 station... I wonder what are the benefits of this Pace one over the famous hakko? remember the huge price difference.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: helius on November 15, 2018, 06:58:11 am
Just a simple question guys, what is the benefit of this one over Hakko fx-888d?

The ADS200 uses tip-heater cartridges, where the heater and temperature sensor are built into the tip. The cartridges are only made by Pace, but they are quite affordable compared to some brands ($11 each). Replacing cartridges is very fast as they plug into the handle.

The Hakko FX888D tips are separate from the heater, so the control loop is looser. This has different tradeoffs, for the tips are cheaper and available from multiple vendors in different countries (the same tips as the old Hakko 936). Hakko sells tips for $9.50 each, and they are less from other companies (Plato sells them for less than $5 each). The heat recovery is slower and replacing tips is more work (you need to loosen a nut and remove a sleeve to take the tip off). The Hakko has half the heating power, with 65W compared to 120W, so it can't perform as well on boards with very large heatsinks. For most jobs the Hakko is suitable, some users just prefer higher performance.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on November 15, 2018, 08:17:09 am
I wonder what are the benefits of this Pace one over the famous hakko?

The Hakko FX888D is 65W and plastic construction with low cost tips. It has a fairly small desk footprint.

The Pace ADS200 is twice as powerful at 120W and has far superior tip heating/accuracy/swapping/work distance/power saving features. It is all metal construction, easy to operate and has an ergonomic cool touch handle. Uses cartridge tips which contain the heater, which are also comparatively low cost and well under the competition. Pace stations are designed to take additional handpieces, such as the tweezers they are releasing next year.

The difference between the two (and even the Hakko FX951, 70W station) is quite noticeable. They both solder but even if on a limited budget the Pace ADS200 is the way to go and worth saving up the extra $100 for in my opinion.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: VEGETA on November 15, 2018, 08:26:04 am
I wonder what are the benefits of this Pace one over the famous hakko?

The Hakko FX888D is 65W and plastic construction with low cost tips. It has a fairly small desk footprint.

The Pace ADS200 is twice as powerful at 120W and has far superior tip heating/accuracy/swapping/work distance/power saving features. It is all metal construction, easy to operate and has an ergonomic cool touch handle. Uses cartridge tips which contain the heater, which are also comparatively low cost and well under the competition. Pace stations are designed to take additional handpieces, such as the tweezers they are releasing next year.

The difference between the two (and even the Hakko FX951, 70W station) is quite noticeable. They both solder but even if on a limited budget the Pace ADS200 is the way to go and worth saving up the extra $100 for in my opinion.

Well, for me and many others, I don't do heavy soldering jobs thus Yihua 908 did the job nicely for me for more than a year now. I wasted the chisel tip which is what I use most, thus I can buy 5 of it for 2$.

However, I always wanted a Hakko fx-888D and finally my brother gave it to me as a gift. I could buy it though since it is just 90$ but shipping was very expensive to Jordan. He resides in Dubai so he got it cheaply and just took it with him to Jordan.

So, it is not worth extra 120$ to get the Pace one in my opinion... for me of course.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on November 15, 2018, 08:30:21 am
Looks like I finally got my new toy in the mail ;D

Congrats! Nothing like a new firestick to bash around :)
I ended up with a few extra tips to try out and have some double ups. If you want a couple send me a PM and I'll put them in a small post bag for you.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: knapik on November 15, 2018, 09:23:05 am
Looks like I finally got my new toy in the mail ;D

Congrats! Nothing like a new firestick to bash around :)
I ended up with a few extra tips to try out and have some double ups. If you want a couple send me a PM and I'll put them in a small post bag for you.

Unfortunately, for some reason it took Mektronics a month to actually ship it to me. I also asked if it was possible to get a discount on the ~$550 list price, and I had to go through some convoluted process where they changed the price on the website itself temporarily just so I could buy it and then change it back after I did. All that and a few days later it went on sale for the same price ???

Are you sure you're willing to just give away your extra tips to me?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on November 15, 2018, 10:20:19 am
Are you sure you're willing to just give away your extra tips to me?

Yeah I have a few spares and some consumables as well. I'll send you a PM.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: salavat on November 17, 2018, 01:32:26 am
Aaron,

I was very excited to learn about new ADS200 station, which would be excellent price/performance device. (I think) pricing is important in the ADS200 offering, thus I am curious to what extent you have influence over the pricing of your distributors?

The reason for asking is that your Russian distributor sells ADS200 with standard tool stand for 364 USD at current exchange rate, which is way off from European pricing at your Finnish distributor, and 40 % above the tequipment pricing (without 6% discount for eevblog members).... at that price point (I believe) ADS200 with instant set back stand is getting quite close to JBC compact station....
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on November 17, 2018, 02:21:51 am
Aaron,

I was very excited to learn about new ADS200 station, which would be excellent price/performance device. (I think) pricing is important in the ADS200 offering, thus I am curious to what extent you have influence over the pricing of your distributors?

The reason for asking is that your Russian distributor sells ADS200 with standard tool stand for 364 USD at current exchange rate, which is way off from European pricing at your Finnish distributor, and 40 % above the tequipment pricing (without 6% discount for eevblog members).... I that price point (I believe) ADS200 with instant set back stand is getting quite close to JBC compact station....

I would say PACE has about a 25% influence over pricing, which isn’t much. In the US, it is actually illegal to dictate prices to distributors. It is considered to be a form of price-fixing. We can “highly recommend” or “strongly suggest” that a distributor lower their prices if we think they are gouging customers. But distributors set their own pricing, and usually do so based on a set discount PACE provides against a published list price. I don’t know why distributors in Russia charge more for PACE product as I am not directly involved in that side of the company, but I suspect their costs (shipping/duties/tariffs, etc) are far higher than Tequipment’s, a distributor located about a 6 hour drive from PACE’s factory in NC. It would not surprise me if the shipping cost of an ADS200 box were US$75-$100 by the time it gets to Russia, whereas it’s only $4/box for Tequipment, who buy at least 50-100 units at a time. The Finnish distributor is likely willing to make less margin than the Russian distributor but that's just opinion, I really don't know.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: salavat on November 17, 2018, 02:50:25 am
Quote
I would say PACE has about a 25% influence over pricing, which isn’t much. In the US, it is actually illegal to dictate prices to distributors. It is considered to be a form of price-fixing. We can “highly recommend” or “strongly suggest” that a distributor lower their prices if we think they are gouging customers. But distributors set their own pricing, and usually do so based on a set discount PACE provides against a published list price. I don’t know why distributors in Russia charge more for PACE product as I am not directly involved in that side of the company, but I suspect their costs (shipping/duties/tariffs, etc) are far higher than Tequipment’s, a distributor located about a 6 hour drive from PACE’s factory in NC. It would not surprise me if the shipping cost of an ADS200 box were US$75-$100 by the time it gets to Russia, whereas it’s only $4/box for Tequipment, who buy at least 50-100 units at a time. The Finnish distributor is likely willing to make less margin than the Russian distributor but that's just opinion, I really don't know.

Aaron, thanks for reply. For your information - there is 0 % (zero) custom duty on soldering stations (just checked). Of course, there is a VAT 18%, which is neutral, since it is paid by importer on the border, then distributor (importer) is reimbursed by customers who pay 18% VAT but from the retail price (which is obviously higher).

As transportation costs are concerned - I am (as private individual) pay something like 14 USD per kilo for air delivery, for business customers carrying loads and boxes, pricing starting from 3 USD per kilo (real figure).

So, probably, you can figure out what makes Russian prices so interesting)).
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 14, 2018, 03:49:38 am
I'm wondering why the 1/8" 30 Degree Chisel tips are more expensive than the other tips in both the Standard and the Ultra Series?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on December 14, 2018, 05:29:50 am
I'm wondering why the 1/8" 30 Degree Chisel tips are more expensive than the other tips in both the Standard and the Ultra Series?

The short answer is they cost us more to manufacture. Standard 1/8"/3.18mm 30° Chisel Tip PN 1130-0051-P1 and it's Ultra-Performance version PN 1131-0051-P1 were originally custom created for a specific customer, and I think we had to perform some secondary operation (like extra plating) to manufacture the tips to specification. It other cases, it's simply harder to plate and manufacture the tip (Knife-Tips and ultra-fine point tips are an example), so those cost more too, which will be reflected in a higher list price. In general, if the tip shape requires a secondary operation, the price will go up.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on December 18, 2018, 06:13:38 pm
Notice to All:

By now, many of you have seen Dave's latest soldering station related video: EEVBlog #1160 - Weller Responds! concerning the safety of the Weller 1010.

I just wanted you to know that the fuse in the back of the ADS200 is in the primary side of the transformer for safety. On all of our products, we have always had a fuse (or circuit breaker) as the first items on the Mains. Since the Weller 1010 is more of a budget station, I suspect they probably omitted the fuse as a cost-cutting measure. If you look at the ADS200 back panel image attached, you'll note PACE even supplies an extra fuse (not that you'll ever need to use it)!

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: The3DE on December 26, 2018, 08:14:43 pm
Does anyone know how the ADS200 compares to the Hakko FX-951, with both being around the same price? I'm mostly concerned with performance.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: floobydust on December 26, 2018, 09:50:57 pm
Notice to All:

By now, many of you have seen Dave's latest soldering station related video: EEVBlog #1160 - Weller Responds! concerning the safety of the Weller 1010.

I just wanted you to know that the fuse in the back of the ADS200 is in the primary side of the transformer for safety. On all of our products, we have always had a fuse (or circuit breaker) as the first items on the Mains. Since the Weller 1010 is more of a budget station, I suspect they probably omitted the fuse as a cost-cutting measure. If you look at the ADS200 back panel image attached, you'll note PACE even supplies an extra fuse (not that you'll ever need to use it)!

Aaron

Can you comment on what safety approvals the station actually has. I don't see anything mentioned in the documentation/website about agency approvals or a certification label on the product. Nice to mention ESD standards though.
I could not find Pace soldering stations listed in the UL on-line certifications database.

I look to ensure a product is not "designed to" or "meets requirements of" but has instead has been assessed by an accredited agency when it comes to safety.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: PACE-Worldwide on December 27, 2018, 12:47:04 am
Notice to All:

By now, many of you have seen Dave's latest soldering station related video: EEVBlog #1160 - Weller Responds! concerning the safety of the Weller 1010.

I just wanted you to know that the fuse in the back of the ADS200 is in the primary side of the transformer for safety. On all of our products, we have always had a fuse (or circuit breaker) as the first items on the Mains. Since the Weller 1010 is more of a budget station, I suspect they probably omitted the fuse as a cost-cutting measure. If you look at the ADS200 back panel image attached, you'll note PACE even supplies an extra fuse (not that you'll ever need to use it)!

Aaron

Can you comment on what safety approvals the station actually has. I don't see anything mentioned in the documentation/website about agency approvals or a certification label on the product. Nice to mention ESD standards though.
I could not find Pace soldering stations listed in the UL on-line certifications database.

I look to ensure a product is not "designed to" or "meets requirements of" but has instead has been assessed by an accredited agency when it comes to safety.

All of our Soldering Stations are CSA/CE approved, which is equivalent to UL approval.

Aaron
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on December 27, 2018, 03:07:57 am
Adding an ISB micro-switch is not so easy unless Pace wants to sell these little stainless plates (with threaded holes). As I am always curious, I just had to "take-a-gander" with calipers ready. Here's an idea of what I'm 100% sure no-one will want to fabricate:  SS 0.75 mm THICK (If this thing was Asian crap, soft metal would be used..)

MICRO-SWITCH: 1.6 mm HOLES x2 at 6.0 mm SPACING
Red Lines in mm on 2 attached pics:
A - 4.6
B - 7.7
C - 25.1
D - 24.3
E - 20.7
F - 4.0
G - 13.3
H - 3.0
I - 20.0
J - 3.8
K - 17.6
L - 2.4
M - 7.9
N - 6.6
O - 19.5
P - 6.0
Q - 9.0
R - 18.9
S - 9.1
Still don't know why I posted this, but obviously I had time without chestnuts roasting by an open fire..   :-DD
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on December 27, 2018, 05:15:06 pm
Does anyone know how the ADS200 compares to the Hakko FX-951, with both being around the same price? I'm mostly concerned with performance.

I don't think there is anything the Hakko FX-951 does better. The Pace ADS 200 is built from more expensive materials (metal rather than plastic), higher power, more accurate and faster heating, requires no calibration, has an easier interface and clearer display. The Paces iron aside from being aluminum is shorter and doesn't require padding to dissipate heat, or expensive plastic tip holders.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 28, 2018, 03:56:57 am
I need a new soldering station and I'm considering the ads200 since I had a good experience with a second hand pace (clearly beaten up but worked like a champ) but i'd like the ability to swap it to 230V if I ever move to a different country -- is there some way of getting this one serviced if I ever need to change the voltage? (Maybe swap out the transformer?)

I really wonder why there's no built in switch. Would it really have cost a lot more?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 28, 2018, 05:27:39 pm
Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 28, 2018, 05:35:28 pm
Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.

Probably easier to use a step-down transformer.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: helius on December 28, 2018, 06:07:39 pm
As much as I prefer devices that you don't have to buy over again when moving from the US to Europe or back, there may be components besides the transformer that are specialized for each region in a modern soldering station. The control loop needs to run every AC half-cycle, and it may need different coefficients for 100 Hz and 120 Hz, so this would mean a different ROM.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 28, 2018, 06:10:10 pm
Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.

Probably easier to use a step-down transformer.


No fun in that

Also a good safe step down transformer is more expensive than a new soldering iron

The engineer in me bristles at having two transformers when a switch could do the job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 28, 2018, 06:43:53 pm

No fun in that

Also a good safe step down transformer is more expensive than a new soldering iron

The engineer in me bristles at having two transformers when a switch could do the job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Voltage converter transformers are a dime a dozen on ebay. You can get a 2,000 watt one on eBay for $55 and use it for other 120V equipment too. Doesn't have to be anything special. It's a transformer for gosh sakes!

I suppose could add another primary winding or unwind some of the secondary.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on December 28, 2018, 07:56:25 pm
Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
You can find a bit more about the transformer in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660)

There is enough space to fit a ~90VA transformer inside (120va is not required since Pace only uses full power sporadically)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 28, 2018, 08:09:19 pm
You can find a bit more about the transformer in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660)

There is enough space to fit a ~90VA transformer inside (120va is not required since Pace only uses full power sporadically)

So one could wind a new secondary and leave the existing secondary disconnected?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 28, 2018, 09:08:47 pm

No fun in that

Also a good safe step down transformer is more expensive than a new soldering iron

The engineer in me bristles at having two transformers when a switch could do the job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Voltage converter transformers are a dime a dozen on ebay. You can get a 2,000 watt one on eBay for $55 and use it for other 120V equipment too. Doesn't have to be anything special. It's a transformer for gosh sakes!

I suppose could add another primary winding or unwind some of the secondary.

If I'm going to do this I'm going to do this truly hackish way. Also I don't trust those shitbox ebay transformers, especially not with mains electricity on the line. I don't trust myself either, but I'm reckless.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: 2N3055 on December 28, 2018, 09:11:11 pm
Looking at the teardown videos, 230V station seems to have windings in series. It might be dual voltage trafo, just no switch.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 28, 2018, 09:15:50 pm
Looking at the teardown videos, 230V station seems to have windings in series. It might be dual voltage trafo, just no switch.

Interesting. Would be cool if a Pace employee could confirm -- I'm happy to make a little mod inside.

Hell, this is EEVBlog forums: anyone know the specs on the transformer? I can buy a DPDT 110/240V switch for like $5 and can probably find dual-primary transformers if the secondary is a standard voltage like 24VAC.
You can find a bit more about the transformer in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/my-first-pace-ads200-victim/msg1700660/#msg1700660)

There is enough space to fit a ~90VA transformer inside (120va is not required since Pace only uses full power sporadically)

Nice, this is very helpful. i was looking at 120-160VA toroids and they are like $60 which is expensive but not new soldering iron expensive.

Maybe I missed it but what does it output on the secondary? 12VAC?


As much as I prefer devices that you don't have to buy over again when moving from the US to Europe or back, there may be components besides the transformer that are specialized for each region in a modern soldering station. The control loop needs to run every AC half-cycle, and it may need different coefficients for 100 Hz and 120 Hz, so this would mean a different ROM.

Yeah this would be the bad case, but I question what engineer would not simply abstract this and simply deal with zero-crossing points (I'm assuming some kind of triac control into the iron?) You already have to deal with whatever grid instability there is anyway.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: 2N3055 on December 28, 2018, 09:34:11 pm
It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 28, 2018, 10:19:22 pm
It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.

Awesome. I think I can cram a https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d)

and then drill some holes for the DPDT slide switch.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 29, 2018, 02:37:16 am
It may be easier to mount a square transformer like a Hammond 185F24

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/185F24-BULK?qs=jVNfTZ92j2tcQKKtg76oOQ%3D%3D (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/185F24-BULK?qs=jVNfTZ92j2tcQKKtg76oOQ%3D%3D)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: 2N3055 on December 29, 2018, 09:10:48 am
E/I transformers with separated bobbins have higher class insulation.
They are prefered for this kind of use. Trafo that labjr mentioned looks really good for this.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Cliff Matthews on December 29, 2018, 03:52:31 pm
It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.

Awesome. I think I can cram a https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d)

and then drill some holes for the DPDT slide switch.
Be aware that putting that 4.1 amp toroidal transformer into the case,  may cause an increase of ~2 volts AC and present up to 40 volts DC at the regulator (max allowable) and likely require a larger heat sink.. To avoid cooking the regulator with your new transformer (and maybe the whole PCB), drop the input to the regulator by 5 to 10 volts. You could do it easy with a series string of 1N400x diodes or a 7805 and a 10 ohm 2-watt resistor in current limiter configuration.

The default Pace transformer presents 33v to the regulator (at 120vac line) and almost 35v (at max 126vac line). Too close for comfort.. There's plenty of room for a larger heat sink (see attached pic)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 29, 2018, 04:50:32 pm
I'm surprised someone has not yet made a fancy drop-in control board for the ADS200?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: floobydust on December 29, 2018, 07:30:27 pm
Where is the firmware history for the ADS-200?
This fellow upgrades from 1.2 to 1.3 to stop temperature display readings from wandering around.
It's a socketed PLCC MCU swap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHY2X6eG26I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHY2X6eG26I)
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on December 29, 2018, 08:36:44 pm
I bought mine from Accessotronics (Ottawa) 3 weeks ago and it came with v1.4
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: hrbngr on December 29, 2018, 10:33:50 pm
Aaron,

Is 1.4 now the current firmware?

Also, I have not seen any discussions on this recently, but how has the tip/holder redesign worked out?  I remember that some early adopters were having trouble w/the gasket in the handle coming out of position and causing the tips to not fit properly--was this completely resolved?

thanks.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: mbless on December 29, 2018, 10:37:53 pm
I'm surprised someone has not yet made a fancy drop-in control board for the ADS200?

I made my own that uses a buck converter + LDO instead of the linear regulator with heatsink. I also switched to a TFT screen so I had to make a new front panel. It's been taking forever to finish the firmware since I don't have a lot of free time for it.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 30, 2018, 02:45:51 am
It is simple 24V transformer, albeit of good quality.

Awesome. I think I can cram a https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Triad-Magnetics/VPT24-4170?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvwUzoUXIIvyTw34uqMHR%252buIg1%2f%2fV2UEN4%3d)

and then drill some holes for the DPDT slide switch.
Be aware that putting that 4.1 amp toroidal transformer into the case,  may cause an increase of ~2 volts AC and present up to 40 volts DC at the regulator (max allowable) and likely require a larger heat sink.. To avoid cooking the regulator with your new transformer (and maybe the whole PCB), drop the input to the regulator by 5 to 10 volts. You could do it easy with a series string of 1N400x diodes or a 7805 and a 10 ohm 2-watt resistor in current limiter configuration.

The default Pace transformer presents 33v to the regulator (at 120vac line) and almost 35v (at max 126vac line). Too close for comfort.. There's plenty of room for a larger heat sink (see attached pic)

Well yeah that's the peak equivalent of 24VRMS. For a given transformer the ratio is fixed so unless I suddenly get a 135V/270V mains (bigger problems!) it'll always be under 40V. On top of that that's just the peak voltage so it's only going to need to dissipate that for a small section of the cycle. I guess I could whack in a diode, but why bother?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 30, 2018, 03:00:47 am
I'm surprised someone has not yet made a fancy drop-in control board for the ADS200?

I made my own that uses a buck converter + LDO instead of the linear regulator with heatsink. I also switched to a TFT screen so I had to make a new front panel. It's been taking forever to finish the firmware since I don't have a lot of free time for it.

This is super cool. Would you mind sharing more? I think pace could really use an engineer that understands UI design. I really don't understand why this sucker costs $250. Grab a decent switcher that outputs 24V, a couple of power FETs to handle switching and a $1 micro to handle the control of the LCD + power. I guess the R&D behind the handpiece and tips is a worth a good amount but the ts-100 shows that you can make entire tip-heater cartridge system for < $100. At the end of the day it's "just" a temperature controlled heating element. I'm sure Pace has 60+ years of experience for a reason, but it's fun to speculate.


Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: tooki on December 30, 2018, 03:14:55 am
There are a lot more things that go into the cost of a product than the parts, or even R&D. Logistics, design validation, certification, overhead, marketing, warranty fulfillment, and doubtless many more I’m not even thinking of.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 30, 2018, 04:00:26 am
The ADS200 station seems like a bargain. The comparison to TS100 is not apples to apples. That thing is sold on ebay and Alibaba. It runs on batteries or an AC adapter which has to be purchased separately. It's probably not certified for commercial use. It's made in China. Probably wouldn't stand up to use for production line. Got a neat OLED display though!

Pace is made in USA. They have great support. So the UI is a bit old fashioned. It gets the job done. And leaves hobbyists with motivation to devise some good after-market mods.

Any out there think they can make it cheaper and actually do it for a livelihood?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on December 30, 2018, 06:20:36 am
 It is a very good price for the technology used. I am very happy with the purchase and price.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Shock on December 30, 2018, 07:58:06 pm
Is 1.4 now the current firmware?
Also, I have not seen any discussions on this recently, but how has the tip/holder redesign worked out?  I remember that some early adopters were having trouble w/the gasket in the handle coming out of position and causing the tips to not fit properly--was this completely resolved?

In the 1.4 firmware it includes a smoother single digit temp control and display, the heating profile was also improved on. I'm running this and works well for me, Pace did a good job.

Tip and iron problem was solved almost straight away. Unless you were in the very first batch it won't affect you.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 30, 2018, 08:10:23 pm
There are a lot more things that go into the cost of a product than the parts, or even R&D. Logistics, design validation, certification, overhead, marketing, warranty fulfillment, and doubtless many more I’m not even thinking of.


It's a basic soldering station. Pace has over half a century of experience. If they aren't making a huge net margin something is wrong. It's not rocket science.

I am happy to pay for it, I like paying for American engineering that will outlive me. But for $250 I expect things like "switchable voltage" or "firmware upgrades that don't need a chip mailed to me" or "Tft screen".

None of those would take a huge amount of extra engineering, since the Chinese have apparently been able to figure that out at a fraction of the cost.

Would be a fun project.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: Bud on December 30, 2018, 08:30:42 pm
Yes,yes, please go ahead and do it and share with us how it goes, and do not forget about plating the tips your fun project will be worthless without.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 30, 2018, 09:17:56 pm
Obviously the margin has been cut the be more competitive with Hakko etc. So they reused the basic design of the old stations. Though, not sure why they didn't use a dual voltage transformer? Maybe has to do with protecting foreign markets? But then again Euro price sheet shows nearly identical prices. I bet Hakko does it for that reason.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 30, 2018, 09:36:34 pm
Yes,yes, please go ahead and do it and share with us how it goes, and do not forget about plating the tips your fun project will be worthless without.

 ::)  :clap:

Man you need to be less of a dick. In fact, Unisolder shows that it can be done by hobbyists.

Leverage the difficult-for-hobbyists hardware (tip fabrication, hand piece) part built by others, and exploit cheap manufacturing of PCBs + shift burden to software which is quick to iterate.

There's a reason most American manufacturers died off, they couldn't decouple their slow-moving processes from processes that needed to move faster. I hope Pace can keep up and isn't kept alive by "buy American" diehards like me.
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: nimish on December 30, 2018, 09:45:45 pm
Obviously the margin has been cut the be more competitive with Hakko etc. So they reused the basic design of the old stations. Though, not sure why they didn't use a dual voltage transformer? Maybe has to do with protecting foreign markets? But then again Euro price sheet shows nearly identical prices. I bet Hakko does it for that reason.

Yes it's kind of baffling. They would need to stock 2 different SKUs (and they are smart enough to turn their 3 buttons into 1 assembly??) and deal with all of those supply chain problems with sourcing 2 different transformers from their supplier.

My guess is that they don't sell a lot of the 220V version for it to be worth spending the extra cost on the 110V version to have the extra winding. Of course, it's a chicken-and-egg thing: if they built a global version perhaps they could sell more globally...

I generally wonder why they bother with linear transformers when 90-120W 19V SMPS supplies are ultra cheap due to the scale of laptop manufacturing. Noise?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: labjr on December 30, 2018, 10:09:04 pm
They probably use linear supplies because using switching supplies would require an entire redesign and certification etc. They've been using linear supplies forever. Why change? I still say the single voltage transformer is for market protection. Most of the larger manufacturers of soldering stations do the same. Maybe distributors won't commit to taking the line if there's a possibility of competition with gray market goods.

The ISB jack is on the back of Non-ISB stations. Why didn't they leave that off if they're trying to save cost?
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: helius on December 30, 2018, 10:49:21 pm
I'm so excited this thread is back to bikeshedding. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)
Post by: 2N3055 on December 30, 2018, 11:19:46 pm
Obviously