Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 169838 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #500 on: July 18, 2018, 01:18:04 pm »
So what's up with the ADS200 supply problems?
It's been weeks now, and stockists either don't have the ADS200 with ISB stand, or can't even order them from Pace.

The silence is deafening, and something is clearly wrong.

As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:

www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors


Tequipment have stock at least.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #501 on: July 18, 2018, 01:20:12 pm »
I think the first version of the firmware had a more stable display, as in, you didn't see the fluctuation as often, so I prefer the latest version even if it does show the overshoot a bit more and is a bit more jumpy.  I find that better than such a stable display where it never leaves the set temp because you don't really see what is going on with the tip.

Dave - did you also check the tip temp of the JBC during the test, it is probably bang on, but that would have been nice to verify as well since we are doing a low temp test.
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #502 on: July 18, 2018, 01:25:59 pm »
:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly

I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.

You are correct. Like all other soldering iron manufacturers (including JBC, Hakko, Ersa and Weller), we use temperature display dampening software. This is because if you saw the real-time temperature fluctuations at the sensor level, it might throw you into an epileptic fit with all the temperature variation shown on the display.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:39:46 pm by PACE-Worldwide »
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #503 on: July 18, 2018, 01:31:23 pm »
:palm:
It's worse than I thought, looks like they can't even program a PID loop correctly

I suspect the actual PID loop is fine, it could just be something's up with the temperature display measurement routine. It's not like the tip can suddenly jump to 400C and then back down the 330C within a second or whatever it did.

Then why does it appear to run "cold" with the same power as the JBC? Something's off at the P term seems to me.
 

Offline VK4GHZ

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #504 on: July 18, 2018, 01:33:04 pm »
Tequipment have stock at least.
Nope!
Not even TEquipment currently have the ISB model (albeit 120VAC version) either, hence my original question.
They show 10 units with the standard stand, and no ISB units.

Anyway... after months of waiting, I'm now considering the JBC.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:35:43 pm by VK4GHZ »
 

Offline VK4GHZ

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #505 on: July 18, 2018, 01:50:25 pm »
As explained before in this forum, we experienced manufacturing issues in March, which delayed production by months. But those issues have been resolved since June, and our distributors are still in the process of filling their pipeline. You may wish to go to our Distributor Listing:

www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors

Or you can buy direct from PACE's website:

ADS200 with Standard Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200

ADS200 with Instant Setback Tool Stand: www.paceworldwide.com/products/soldering-stations/digital-control-soldering-systems/ads200-accudrive-production-soldering-station-with-td200
Thanks Aaron.
I've been across everything since April, and was aware of the issues.
Tried ordering directly from Pace last week, but the price comes up as $0.00
That's a bargain!

But USD$280 for freight to Australia?
Don't think so!

:-(

 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #506 on: July 18, 2018, 02:00:09 pm »
I've been across everything since April, and was aware of the issues.
Tried ordering directly from Pace last week, but the price comes up as $0.00
That's a bargain!

But USD$280 for freight to Australia?
Don't think so!

:-(

LOL ... yes, we just put the ADS200 webpage up last week, so we may not have entered the pricing at that time. It's up now though. Concerning the $280 shipping, I think you might consider purchasing through our Australian distributor Mektronics as we are restricted as to how we can ship overseas (only Fedex and UPS, I believe). This is because we sell direct as a convenience to the customer but we much prefer you buy through an authorized distributor. So you'll probably get a better shipping deal from Mektronics:

MEKTRONICS Australia
Website: www.mektronics.com.au
Email: sales@mektronics.com.au

Aaron
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 02:08:59 pm by PACE-Worldwide »
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #507 on: July 18, 2018, 02:10:25 pm »
The other question I have as well is how do we know we are comparing apples to apples - setting two units to 270 could mean two entirely different things depending on the way they regulate temperature.  One unit might consider 270 the average temperature with temps going higher than that and the other unit might consider 270 the maximum temperature and it tolerates being pulled down below that, but is designed to not go much above it so its average is actually lower than what it is set for.  How could one test for tip temp during use to get a graph of actual performance - that would be the final word i would think!
 
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Offline mbless

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #508 on: July 18, 2018, 02:18:14 pm »
Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.


I'm guessing we won't hear anything for a bit until they get their ducks in a row. It looks like I pulled the trigger too early buying a unit. Tequipment just shipped the ISB, so I'm probably going to eat the shipping costs and return it.
 

Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #509 on: July 18, 2018, 02:21:06 pm »
Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.


I'm guessing we won't hear anything for a bit until they get their ducks in a row. It looks like I pulled the trigger too early buying a unit. Tequipment just shipped the ISB, so I'm probably going to eat the shipping costs and return it.

If their firmware is like their TO-220 placement, you guys are in trouble. The amount of time this is taking you'd think they're trying to install a web browser in there. It's a soldering iron. That's their main product.  |O
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #510 on: July 18, 2018, 02:30:54 pm »
The other question I have as well is how do we know we are comparing apples to apples - setting two units to 270 could mean two entirely different things depending on the way they regulate temperature.  One unit might consider 270 the average temperature with temps going higher than that and the other unit might consider 270 the maximum temperature and it tolerates being pulled down below that, but is designed to not go much above it so its average is actually lower than what it is set for.  How could one test for tip temp during use to get a graph of actual performance - that would be the final word i would think!
Marco Reps' review suggested the sensor may be further away from the tip, so this may explain the pace (no pun intended) at which they decided to recover in software. He noted no overshoots, just moderate and accurate recovery. Perhaps Pace could offer a menu option for aggressive thermal management, but that could end-up decreasing the famous life of the Pace tip-cladding.. Indeed, it does seem like apples and oranges, but firmware in part, may be able to flatten the user experience.

*edit: Added Marco Reps tip cutaway angles (still doesn't explain why competitors tips cost so much and don't last..)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 03:04:54 pm by Cliff Matthews »
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #511 on: July 18, 2018, 02:50:21 pm »
Aaron, does Pace have any comment on the low-temp test? I'm wondering if this is firmware fixable or a hardware issue.
I've sent the video to our Engineers for review. We've done performance tests against competitive units and fared excellently in most cases. But note that it was never our intention to design a "JBC Killer" ... we just wanted to produce a solid, low cost, reliable soldering station that could be purchased by everyday technicians, yet withstand the rigors of intense production soldering, without costing an arm and a leg. As Dave mentioned in his review, perhaps a better comparison would be against the Hakko 951. From a cost of ownership basis, JBC is double the price for the initial cost and more than double the price of our tips, so we need to have realistic expectations. We will be successful in 90-95% of the applications, and against the competition, even JBC, in standard applications. As shown in the video, our build quality is second to none and is designed to last 10-20 years, typical for a PACE Station. Our new TD-200 handpiece is superior to the JBC, Hakko Metcal, et al: tip-to-grip is excellent (the shorter the tip-to-grip, the better fine control, especially under a microscope), ergonomics are great, and our new Cool Touch technology works! Ask Dave about the temperature of the JBC handle at higher temperatures and I think you'll find it gets extremely hot in any extended use situation - JBC now ships the handle with a large foam grip to lessen the heat issue, but I believe it ruins the otherwise solid ergonomics of the JBC iron. All in all, the feedback we've received from recent customers has been overwhelmingly positive and I think you should all give the ADS200 a try!
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #512 on: July 18, 2018, 03:05:16 pm »

Marco Reps' review suggested the sensor may be further away from the tip, so this may explain the pace (no pun intended) at which they decided to recover in software. He noted no overshoots, just moderate and accurate recovery. Perhaps Pace could offer a menu option for aggressive thermal management, but that could end-up decreasing the famous life of the Pace tip-cladding.. Indeed, it does seem like apples and oranges, but firmware in part, may be able to flatten the user experience.

Cliff,

You are correct about the placement of the sensor. JBC's is minutely closer to the front end of the tip, allowing for a slightly faster recovery, but it ends up costing you big bucks as they are super expensive to manufacture this way. Again, we are not trying to "beat" JBC, we are simply trying to provide a high-performance (despite Dave's comparison, the ADS200 is powerful) and affordable soldering station.

Aaron
 
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Online Bud

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #513 on: July 18, 2018, 03:26:52 pm »
Our new TD-200 handpiece is superior to the JBC, Hakko Metcal, et al: tip-to-grip is excellent (the shorter the tip-to-grip, the better fine control, especially under a microscope), ergonomics are great

Very true! The moment i tried the handpiece at a tech show i instantly knew that. JBC iron is far from that comfy feeling in your hand.

All in all i think the hardware is capable. the firmware should be able to address the noted deficiencies.  But there should be a way to update the firmware by the user.
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Offline alank2

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #514 on: July 18, 2018, 03:28:26 pm »
Three more things to add.

I do agree that you can't judge a product against one that is twice its price, well at least not often.  There is sometimes that upset where a product half the price performs as well in every way, but it is probably more reasonable to be pleased if a product performs as well in some ways if it is half the price.  It is certainly possible that the JBC has tighter or better regulation and that would be a benefit, but it is also certainly possible that the JBC allows you to set a lower temperature and it is thinking "average temp" instead of "maximum temp".  If you look at their website, they sell this as a feature that puts them above their competition, that you can set the temp lower, but my question is if you truly compare the tip temps under use, how does that relate to the actual tip temperatures being executed.  Since it is a sales point for them, I do have to wonder what the real deal is/temps are.  A comparison where you have the ADS200 set 20 or 30 degrees higher may be inline with the JBC at a lower setting as far as actual tip temps, this is entirely possible.  It is also possible that the JBC has better temperature regulation.  What I wonder is which (temperature or regulation) is more responsible for the results of Dave's test...  I suppose you could say both when you are testing at the edge.

I use my ADS200 under a microscope 90%+ of the time and the short tip distance is great.

The third thing is that Pace has more than impressed me on customer service.  It is a big thing for me, but when a company goes out of their way to take care of their customer, I notice.  I'll be honest, I'm not easy to please as my expectations for customer service are high.  So many companies could care less about their customers or customer service so this is not a trivial thing.  Their attitude with me has always been completely positive and how can they please their customer.

For me, the bottom line is in its price point, does it excel and do what you are looking for it to do.  I came from a WES51 and I loved that iron.  The ADS200 is a definite improvement in many ways, especially tip selection.  I tried the FX-888 that everyone loves and was very disappointed with it.  I know many love it, but I thought my WES51 was better in every way.  I almost pulled the trigger on a FX-951 and was thinking about getting the microsoldering iron for it, but went with the ADS200 instead, so I can't comment about how the FX-951 would stack up against it, but I'm very satisfied with the ADS200.  I would love to see a FX-951 vs ADS200 review someday, that would apples to apples price wise.
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #515 on: July 18, 2018, 04:22:24 pm »
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
  • JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
  • Why didn't Dave use the essential Tip Tool? Much easier to remove replace tips than the silicone grip.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 04:26:24 pm by PACE-Worldwide »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #516 on: July 18, 2018, 04:28:31 pm »
TLDL;
It's not nearly as good thermally as the JBC CD-B, good 20+ degC difference in capability at low temp, I was very surprised. So much for "delivers unsurpassed thermal performance"  :-//
So no JBC killer, unless price is your sole driving factor.
Well built though and pretty sexy.
The display has some random number and overshoot weirdness.
Yeah, that PCB layout is kinda weird, but the overall construction quality looks amazing!!!

I'm not sure why the 15 sec setback delay is an issue — isn't that just making sure it doesn't go into setback when you're just setting it down for a second?

I would love to see this station pitted against the Ersa i-Con series. The "full" i-Con models are 120W and use non-cartridge tips, but use a quite precision machined heater core and tips, and the heater goes deep into the tips. Distance-to-tip is also very small. (The "little" i-Con models, the nano and pico, are 80W peak. The nano actually uses the same heater as the big ones, just driven at lower voltage. The pico actually uses a different heater.) Even the little ones have a power bargraph, much like the JBC. They also have configurable power profiles — low avoids any overshoot, so heats gingerly. High heats aggressively and may have significant overshoot. Medium is… a happy middle ground. (I have the nano, and it's a lovely station, but its build quality, while very good, just can't compare to this Pace, which is actually priced about the same.)


Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #517 on: July 18, 2018, 04:31:13 pm »
JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
How do the PACE tips compare in this regard to the Ersa tips? I'm just a hobbyist so I'm sure any tips would last forever for me, but everything I've heard is that Ersa's tips last freaking forever. Is this also due to a thicker iron plating?
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #518 on: July 18, 2018, 04:36:02 pm »
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)

Dave has an obsession with fine tuning his tip temperatures rather than getting on with soldering.

My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.

I think a Metcal in the lab might give him an aneurysm.

He's got a point about the imperial tip sizes, though. Do everyone a favour, dual label them on the tip and package as well.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 04:38:23 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #519 on: July 18, 2018, 04:38:18 pm »
JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.
How do the PACE tips compare in this regard to the Ersa tips? I'm just a hobbyist so I'm sure any tips would last forever for me, but everything I've heard is that Ersa's tips last freaking forever. Is this also due to a thicker iron plating?

To be honest, I'm not sure about Ersa, as we don't compete with them in the States too much. But our UK facility has probably done testing on them so I'll get back to you. I suspect they optimize for lead-free and are thus heavily plated, like PACE, and that's the reason they last so long.

Aaron
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #520 on: July 18, 2018, 04:40:42 pm »

He's got a point about the imperial tip sizes, though. Do everyone a favour, dual label them on the tip and package as well.

That is a good point. I will bring it up to the production people!

Aaron
 
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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #521 on: July 18, 2018, 04:48:35 pm »
Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…

I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #522 on: July 18, 2018, 04:49:54 pm »
Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…

I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...

Concerns about people blowing them up by not being smart enough to look for a switch?

Dual primaries shouldn't be all that much more expensive.. and a switch is a couple bucks at most (in small quantity no less).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 04:54:38 pm by Monkeh »
 
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Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #523 on: July 18, 2018, 04:55:56 pm »
Isn't dual primary type just a matter of winding them with two conductors at the same time (so turn-count matches) and then soldering 4 lugs instead of 2?
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #524 on: July 18, 2018, 05:06:59 pm »
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)

High temps are good if you like to have on the tip a totally oxidized solder "paste" that can't flow, if you prefer a beautiful shiny melted alloy that can, around 300°C is the way to go.

  • JBC tips have much less iron plating than PACE tips: The iron plating on a tip determines affects the life of the tip: the more plating, the longer the life. However, it also affects performance because iron is terrible conductor of heat. It's a fine line: If you plate too little the tips erode quickly. If you plate too much they don't transfer heat well and take too long to heat-up/recover. We're always looking for that "Goldilocks" equation of "just-right." Related to the above mention low 270°C/518°F temperature, PACE will never perform as well at those low  temperatures, since we optimize our plating for lead-free solder (highly corrosive to the iron plating) with about twice as much iron plating as the JBC.

That must be why JBC tips last, literally, decades (when cleaned with moist sponges).
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