Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 169130 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #525 on: July 18, 2018, 05:13:34 pm »
To be honest, I'm not sure about Ersa, as we don't compete with them in the States too much. But our UK facility has probably done testing on them so I'll get back to you. I suspect they optimize for lead-free and are thus heavily plated, like PACE, and that's the reason they last so long.
Yeah, Ersa seems nearly non-existent in USA, and wildly expensive when it does appear! (Whereas here in Europe, it's fairly common and affordable, and it's Hakko that's marked up like crazy.)

Speaking of facilities, what do you guys still do in Maryland? I vaguely recall that you've got a facility in Elkridge (which I used to live near), and used to be headquartered in Silver Spring (where I lived briefly)! :D

Since we have Pace's attention, I'd also be curious as to why one doesn't design these things to use dual-voltage transformers. I would think that the simplified logistics of producing just one model, as well as the convenience to those of us who move overseas now and then, would outweigh the slight added cost…

I've asked this question before, and there was a very good reason why we've never done this, even though we've been selling in 2 voltages since the 70's. But for the life of me, I cannot remember (I've got the CRS/Can't Remember Sh-t disease) the excellent reasoning against dual-voltage transformers ... cost maybe?. LOL, will have to get back to you ...
Cool!

I mean, for that matter, other than capacitors failing, why don't soldering stations use switch mode power supplies? Those eliminate the issue of having to set a voltage. (I have witnessed careless people forget to switch the input selector to 230V and then plug it in, so I definitely can see how that's a concern, as Monkeh pointed out!)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 05:23:22 pm by tooki »
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #526 on: July 18, 2018, 05:25:55 pm »
Speaking of facilities, what do you guys still do in Maryland? I vaguely recall that you've got a facility in Elkridge (which I used to live near), and used to be headquartered in Silver Spring (where I lived briefly)! :D

Yes, I'm located at the Elkridge Maryland site. It's our Engineering and Training Center. However, all ADS200's and tips are manufactured in our main North Carolina factory, not here. We only produce Fume Extraction and higher-end BGA rework equipment here.

Cool!

I mean, for that matter, other than capacitors failing, why don't soldering stations use switch mode power supplies? Those eliminate the issue of having to set a voltage. (I have witnessed careless people forget to switch the input selector to 230V and then plug it in, so I definitely can see how that's a concern, as Monkeh pointed out!)

I'll check it out! Thanks for the comments!

Aaron
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #527 on: July 18, 2018, 05:39:38 pm »
For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
 
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Offline Dyaxxis

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #528 on: July 18, 2018, 05:42:54 pm »
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.

That's been my experience as well. Despite the advances in conductive soldering equipment technology, tried and true soldering/rework techniques are paramount.

With that mentioned, I do actually use the absolute lowest temperature I can, which means I have been very successful reworking with a 270°C/518°F temp setting. I do this when I can without an IR preheater or with an IR preheater when I feel pre-heating is warranted. The alloys I use allows me to do this with the equipment I have. As usual, there's a wide variety of situations where this setting is completely unrealistic, but I think the idea here is to use the lowest tip temperature possible for each job.

My personal opinion is Pace is an absolute outstanding company with almost everything they do and the ADS200 is another example of that excellence.  8)
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #529 on: July 18, 2018, 05:47:10 pm »
Lowest temp is not always ideal - higher temps can heat to melting point faster ( talking about thermal paths outside the iron) , so less exposure time. Trying to get the lowest temp possible will usually be counterproductive.
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #530 on: July 18, 2018, 05:51:38 pm »
Several things that bother me concerning Dave's video evaluation:

  • The Ridiculous 270°C/518°F Temperature: Does anyone here actually use 270°C/518°F when soldering?! Our irons are designed for use at 650-800°F. Why not evaluate at a reasonable/more realistic 371°C/700°F temperature setting used on most benches?! I'll assume that Dave always uses these low temperatures, which will always show JBC in a more positive light (see below about plating)
My tips are around 400C, they're not adjustable, and I just get on with soldering quickly and properly. Leaded, lead-free, weird mixtures, high mass, low mass, individual pads on a 0.4mm QFN to TO-220 tabs, I never change temperature. Somehow, my joints all come out fine and things don't get damaged.

That's been my experience as well. Despite the advances in conductive soldering equipment technology, tried and true soldering/rework techniques are paramount.

With that mentioned, I do actually use the absolute lowest temperature I can, which means I have been very successful reworking with a 270°C/518°F temp setting. I do this when I can without an IR preheater or with an IR preheater when I feel pre-heating is warranted. The alloys I use allows me to do this with the equipment I have. As usual, there's a wide variety of situations where this setting is completely unrealistic, but I think the idea here is to use the lowest tip temperature possible for each job.

My personal opinion is Pace is an absolute outstanding company with almost everything they do and the ADS200 is another example of that excellence.  8)

Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process. That being said, the inertia of bench techs, production operators and their supervisors is to turn the temperature up to maximize throughput and minimize the time it takes to reflow the solder (in either an assembly, rework or removal operation).  Concerning the low temperatures used, even back in the eutectic Sn/Pb solder days, our guidance during our training classes was to start everyone out at 316°C or 600°F with solder that melted at 183°C (361°F). I believe Dave was using a Pb-free solder with a melting point of 227°C (441°F) at 270°C? I can’t think of anyone that solders at such a low temp using lead-free solder ... except maybe Dyaxxis? ;-)
 

Online Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #531 on: July 18, 2018, 05:57:31 pm »
For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
 
Rotate handle :-DD Yeah, the cord tends to form in one direction, but it's supple enough to quickly form to a new position ;)
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #532 on: July 18, 2018, 05:58:13 pm »
In terms of comparing the ability to deliver power at the set temperature, I guess it's a not-entirely-ridiculous test, but it doesn't really have any bearing on actual soldering performance.

<320C is silly and just leads to spending all your time turning the temperature up and down for different joints.

Technique is far more valuable than varying temperature.
 
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Offline Dyaxxis

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #533 on: July 18, 2018, 06:17:42 pm »
Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process. That being said, the inertia of bench techs, production operators and their supervisors is to turn the temperature up to maximize throughput and minimize the time it takes to reflow the solder (in either an assembly, rework or removal operation).  Concerning the low temperatures used, even back in the eutectic Sn/Pb solder days, our guidance during our training classes was to start everyone out at 316°C or 600°F with solder that melted at 183°C (361°F). I believe Dave was using a Pb-free solder with a melting point of 227°C (441°F) at 270°C? I can’t think of anyone that solders at such a low temp using lead-free solder ... except maybe Dyaxxis? ;-)

To each their own, but then again... there's a variety of factors that DO NOT always allow me to remain at that range. To correct my own misstatement, I'll rephrase by saying "the lowest, most effective temperature possible along with the most optimal dwell time along with tip shapes and other techniques to yield the most reliable joint possible." It's not always a "one technique does all", so I do adjust my temps according if/when necessary.

So, if you are able to solder a joint at a very low temperature, but that solder joint isn't reliable, then I believe you're NOT soldering at the "lowest temperature possible."

Now, I haven't trained directly at Pace's headquarter training facilities, but I was trained with the films/videos in the very late 80's/early 90's (even from the early ones with presenter Paul "Weatherman" Anthony). And yes, your techniques are what I refer to as "de facto" training techniques, but again... procedures may change "when we leave the training room..."  8)
 
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Offline jagw

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #534 on: July 18, 2018, 06:20:50 pm »
I have been using my ADS-200 daily since it was delivered in April with the original rev 1-0 software.

It is an amazing value for the money and one rock solid piece of equipment.   Support from Pace had been responsive while sorting out the early issues (which in reality caused me no downtime whatsoever).

Yes, like anything, it has some very minor flaws, but certainly nothing that is costing me any performance or productivity.  For me it is a great tool.
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #535 on: July 18, 2018, 06:23:48 pm »
For a company that's been in soldering this long I'm amazed they didn't realise that it's important to be able to rotate the tip.... what a fail!
 
Rotate handle :-DD Yeah, the cord tends to form in one direction, but it's supple enough to quickly form to a new position ;)

We looked at the possibility of a freely rotating tip. Our final design was influenced by Engineering & time-to-market concerns. First of all, there are many customers that love our stationary tip design, and we have yet to receive one complaint about this on our older stations. For example, many of our military customers require a non-rotating tip to deal with conformally coated and bonded components (you gently turn the handle along with custom 4-sided tips to break the bond under surface mounted components), which won't work on say, a Metcal handpiece. But the rotating "feature" was reconsidered when Engineers estimated it would take over a year to redesign/manufacture/test the tips and resulting iron, which would have delayed introduction of the ADS200 by up to 18 months.

My own preference is for a non-rotating tip, but hey, I'm a PACE-guy!
 
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Online Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #536 on: July 18, 2018, 06:27:36 pm »
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko. (heh, I guess my lingo shows a few grey hairs..)  :)


Give a like, and consider subbing to the channel (they may even be on our EEVblog YouTubers list.. Bulah?)
 
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #537 on: July 18, 2018, 08:06:05 pm »
Why is the setback feature called INSTANT setback when it is delayed? Wouldn't automatic setback be a more suitable name?
Marketing terminology I guess. FWIW, my Weller gear reminds me of this (WD1 base unit had user settable timers), but add in the optional setback stand, and even more settings come into play.

Makes it rather customizable, but also a bit confusing. Definitely RTFM territory.

But note that it was never our intention to design a "JBC Killer" ... we just wanted to produce a solid, low cost, reliable soldering station...[snip].

As Dave mentioned in his review, perhaps a better comparison would be against the Hakko 951. From a cost of ownership basis, JBC is double the price for the initial cost and more than double the price of our tips, so we need to have realistic expectations. We will be successful in 90-95% of the applications, and against the competition, even JBC, in standard applications.
From what I see, it does need a few kinks worked out in software, but you've otherwise accomplished that IMHO. The comparison between the ADS200 and FX-951 is certainly valid for those in the US/CAN market. Harder in other markets, but I'd really like to see it paired against an Ersa i-Con 1 or 2 (150W using conventional plated tips).

As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).

For example, the 600F/316C for low temp cases, 700F/371C for the vast majority of soldering cases, and 800F/427C for the really high demand stuff was commonplace in lead-based processes for this purpose. And the fact that 315C, 325C, and 350C are the standards I've seen for lead-free alloys, this still seems to be the case (though 350C seems to be the most common).

Either way, the set temps are at least 100C above the alloy's melting point (i.e. 183C for 63/37 or 217C for SAC305).

Bit of a side note, I'd rather see metric sizing than imperial for tip labels as I find it easier to picture 2.4mm than 3/32".
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #538 on: July 18, 2018, 09:28:11 pm »
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.

When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos. It is hard to find anything more stupid then wasting digital content space this way. In this case it was 18 minutes of unboxing and 4 minutes of review.
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #539 on: July 18, 2018, 09:29:59 pm »
 :-DD
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.

When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos. It is hard to find anything more stupid then wasting digital content space this way. In this case it was 18 minutes of unboxing and 4 minutes of review.

 :-DD !!!
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #540 on: July 18, 2018, 09:37:01 pm »
I'd like to judge for myself, my unit has been paid since three months up here in Montreal.

When are units heading up here?
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #541 on: July 18, 2018, 09:39:12 pm »
I'd like to judge for myself, my unit has been paid since three months up here in Montreal.

When are units heading up here?

Which distributor did you buy from?
 

Online Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #542 on: July 18, 2018, 09:47:24 pm »
Found another Pace review, this one blows the doors off the Hakko.
When I become the President of the Internet I will be putting people in jail for making unboxing videos..
Novice YouTubers often take bad user reviews personally and have to start somewhere..  :-+ 
(not everyone's a Teflon like Dave 8) IMHO, most EE's and tech's are introverted and camera-shy - we take what we can get..)
 
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Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #543 on: July 18, 2018, 09:49:57 pm »

Which distributor did you buy from?

Accessotronik.

TIA!
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #544 on: July 18, 2018, 10:01:24 pm »

Which distributor did you buy from?

Accessotronik.

TIA!

Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada. I doubt serious it's their fault, probably a delay on our side as we're playing catch up with all the orders. Several key distributors have ordered hundreds of ADS stations and thousands of Tips since production restarted in early June, which has bogged us down. I'll check it out and get back to you!

Aaron
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #545 on: July 18, 2018, 10:04:31 pm »

Which distributor did you buy from?

Accessotronik.

TIA!

Dont they claim they have it in stock? I checked just yesterday.
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #546 on: July 18, 2018, 10:07:06 pm »


Dont they claim they have it in stock? I checked just yesterday.

Hmmm ... I'll check it out with the owner and see if it somehow slipped through the cracks.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 10:10:11 pm by PACE-Worldwide »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #547 on: July 18, 2018, 10:12:43 pm »

Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada.

Then they better educate themselves on Customer Service. My experience with them was rough. Can you imagine placing a WEB order, waiting several days , no order shipping, no nothing, sending email inquiries to only receive  "I am away at a conference and will process your order after my return" type of reply. PoS company. It is what, one man show? Do they want make sales or rub their arrogant asses in chairs at conferences.
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Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #548 on: July 18, 2018, 10:18:35 pm »
The one with the ISB stand is "In stock soon. Order now to get in line. First come first served."
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #549 on: July 18, 2018, 10:19:26 pm »

Ahhh. Accessotronik is a really fantastic distributor for PACE, knowledgeable about PACE products and technology. They teach IPC 7711/7721 using PACE equipment exclusively. They're probably the best Distributor we have in Canada.

Then they better educate themselves on Customer Service. My experience with them was rough. Can you imagine placing a WEB order, waiting several days , no order shipping, no nothing, sending email inquiries to only receive  "I am away at a conference and will process your order after my return" type of reply. PoS company. It is what, one man show? Do they want make sales or rub their arrogant asses in chairs at conferences.

This is very unusual for Accessotronik. They have at least 10 employees, 2 locations and people on the road throughout Canada. Likely a fluke from my experience.
 


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