Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 163114 times)

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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #575 on: July 19, 2018, 10:53:16 am »
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Online EEVblog

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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #578 on: July 19, 2018, 11:17:38 am »
No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.

Hi Dave,

As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

Aaron
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 11:36:55 am by PACE-Worldwide »
 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #579 on: July 19, 2018, 11:55:46 am »
As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.

Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.

Quote
Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".

And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 11:57:17 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #580 on: July 19, 2018, 11:59:52 am »
As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct.

Watch the new video, I do that on all three irons.

Quote
Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

I did. Watch the video instead of using someones else's iron!
The JBC was set to 280C and displayed 285C (tops, kinda creeped up to that).
That 5C difference doesn't explain the 30-35 degC difference in the performance on that ground plane.
Quit the sour grapes and just admit it, your choice of thicker ion plating increases the tip thermal resistance and it cannot match the JBC in performance as result. There is nothing wrong with that, just say it and market it that way. i.e. "we deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance".

And in case you missed it in the video, I also mention this stability aspect of your product and say it's one of the good points.

"We deliberately trade off tip life for thermal resistance": ... there I said it! But I won't market that, heh heh heh.

Watching the new version right now!
 

Offline Dyaxxis

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #581 on: July 19, 2018, 12:08:33 pm »

...As alank2 mentioned a few pages back, I hope you match the true temperatures of the irons being compared, as opposed to assuming the set temperatures are correct. Despite having great temperature accuracy, PACE cartridge style tips (as well as JBC, Weller, Hakko, et al) can run hot or cold, depending on the the shape of the tip, it's mass and the positioning of the sensor in the tip. See the attached photo for an example. Note that the PACE tip is reading an accurate temp of 520F, while the JBC Tip is set on 520F yet displaying 557F on the contact pyrometer! Let's compare apples to apples.

Aaron

That's a very valid point Aaron. In regards to the JBC manual, they do have a temp adjustment procedure as well as a notice when changing cartridge types. I actually follow this procedure dependent upon my individual experience to attempt to reduce the variation observed in alank2's pictures (as well as the +5 C difference in Dave's revised video). It is a bit of a hassle, but I'm okay with it.

It's good to see that the ADS 200 (which I have on order  8)) can achieve the precise set tip temp right out of the box, as well as having a "Temperature Match" feature. I'd really like to see how AccuDrive works without accessing that feature when changing between significantly different tip types. I'm positive that the ADS will regulate the temp very close to the set temp, but I'll need to wait until Pace offers AccuDrive "specialty tips" to test this feature.
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #582 on: July 19, 2018, 12:22:04 pm »
Hi Dave,

Just watched the video, and I think it's a fair and balanced review! Thanks for the revisions!

Aaron
 
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Offline Dyaxxis

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #583 on: July 19, 2018, 12:30:09 pm »
So they do stack!
Here ya go!

Nice!

What I like about seeing those two units "stacked" with each other has me thinking about this...

For the Pace Worldwide North American web portal, there's a simple comparison I've made:

  • 2 ADS 200's with ISB stands could cost roughly 530 USD
  • 1 ST 100 without the ISB stands is currently priced at 614.85 USD
  • 2 ST 50's with ISB stands could cost roughly 680.80 USD
  • 2 WJS 100 without ISB could cost 718.94 USD

Yeah, I know... not really "apples-to-apples" comparison amongst distinct features between all of the units in the list, but it's nice to see how 2 ADS 200's could work out much cheaper than the previous technology units. 8)
 
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Offline alank2

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #584 on: July 19, 2018, 01:07:08 pm »
Loved the sponge recovery testing Dave!
 

Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #585 on: July 19, 2018, 01:15:11 pm »
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

How strict is Australian customs? Have someone ship you a "used" one with very low miles.  :-+
 

Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #586 on: July 19, 2018, 01:20:29 pm »
Loved the sponge recovery testing Dave!

Someone has a job flattening sponges?  ;D
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #587 on: July 19, 2018, 01:22:24 pm »
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

How strict is Australian customs? Have someone ship you a "used" one with very low miles.  :-+
..or maybe Jonestronics will have a deal, didn't someone say they currently have an overstock on tips?  :popcorn:
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #588 on: July 19, 2018, 03:56:10 pm »
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

Presjar,

Sorry I missed your entry. Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397.  Mektronics must then ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus you have to add on duty, taxes, Customs etc. After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging.

Aaron
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #589 on: July 19, 2018, 07:36:29 pm »
How does active rectification work on this station? Does anyone have a schematic?
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #590 on: July 19, 2018, 07:43:03 pm »
There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
*edit - 4 of these: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 07:47:57 pm by Cliff Matthews »
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #591 on: July 19, 2018, 07:45:59 pm »
There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
Cliff is correct.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #592 on: July 19, 2018, 08:06:44 pm »
There's a MOSFET bridge.. Marco Reps video mention's it.
*edit - 4 of these: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/ZXMN4A06G.pdf

But how is it driven? :). I wonder if there is something better (=cheaper) than lt4320...
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #593 on: July 19, 2018, 10:46:13 pm »
There's a good argument here for a serious distributor to bite the bullet and ship a pallet load of them by ocean freight. It is significantly cheaper.
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD

Presjar,

Sorry I missed your entry. Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397.  Mektronics must then ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus you have to add on duty, taxes, Customs etc. After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging.

Aaron
 

Offline VK4GHZ

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #594 on: July 19, 2018, 11:04:38 pm »
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #595 on: July 20, 2018, 12:11:13 am »
Pretty cool, looks like I'm getting mine tomorrow, with 3 extra freebie tips of my choice.  :-+

Thanks Aaron!

*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #596 on: July 20, 2018, 12:19:14 am »
Pretty cool, looks like I'm getting mine tomorrow, with 3 extra freebie tips of my choice.  :-+

Thanks Aaron!

Great ... My understanding is that is was indeed PACE's fault, they ordered the ADS200 with ISB Tool Stand in mid June and just received them yesterday! Accessotronik is really a great group of people to work with.

Aaron
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #597 on: July 20, 2018, 12:21:27 am »
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.

That's a pretty amazing price!
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #598 on: July 20, 2018, 02:40:58 am »
Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story. Great ergonomics handpiece and low oxidating tips will do it.

One excellent point of JBC is that its thermal recovery is EXTREMELY fast. So it can afford to go to full sleep every time being put in its cradle and then recover in seconds.

My JBC Nano literally gets to soldering temperature within the time from I lift it from its cradle to I swing my arm back to work piece.

https://youtu.be/d_FZ3nMMnpI
 

Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #599 on: July 20, 2018, 02:56:31 am »
I have a feeling we'll be seeing 3rd party firmware and even 3rd party drop-in PCB's for the ADS200.
 


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