Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 171052 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #600 on: July 20, 2018, 03:43:26 am »
You can buy the JBC for only $5 more ATM.
This is a discount of 30.8%, and they wouldn't be selling at a loss, so their margins are well north of 30%.

Or spot on 30% and they just want to clear them out and not carry it any more?
 

Offline knapik

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #601 on: July 20, 2018, 04:34:34 am »
Dunno about that, a few months ago I saw that the same JBC irons were on sale for about the same price at Mektronics. They seem to have sales for their soldering irons kinda often? I know the fx-951 was on sale pretty recently too.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #602 on: July 20, 2018, 05:32:25 am »
As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).
I'm not suggesting that You turn down the temp and sacrifice the quality of the joint, I thought that was obvious? (maybe not it seems)
It was actually.  :)

My comments had to do with keeping such a low temp on the pad/hole so long that the epoxy bond between the FR4 and copper foil broke free, despite the low temp setting. Subsequently allowing an operator, such as myself, to tear pads & traces off the PCB.  :palm:

FWIW, this isn't a hypothesis. BTDT and burnt the box of T-shirts. Top quality US made PCB's, so can't blame it on crap boards. Just my shitty skills at that time.  |O

Worse yet, I missed this fact at first during the beginnings of my first professional job, thus amplifying the probem (process engineering fell under my purview). :-[ I was so fortunate that others in the company spotted what was going on and explained to me where I'd gone wrong. Not just by an explanation, but by both demonstration as well as full access to an SEM to show me what was truly going on via cross-sections.  :phew: I learned so much at that time....  ;D

FWIW, the company involved was Martin Marietta, just prior to the transition to Lockheed Martin (I replaced a 42yr. veteran* who quite literally gave his entire professional life to the company = was given the choice to "take it or you get nothing" retirement options).  :--

I learned so much more than I could ever pass on I expect. Not many of them left, which truly makes me sad (not only great engineers, but some of the best human beings I've ever had the privilege of having known).  :(

* This may not mean squat to anyone else, but I miss you old man. You went too soon. :'(
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #603 on: July 20, 2018, 07:58:08 am »
Great video presentation. Well done. But...

I hate these kinds of reviews, because without ever having even used it, one can't possibly know the first thing about how well the thing solders, how well the setback works, how hot the handle gets (when it's actually soldering things and pumping out the watts), or how good is the tip selection. It turns into so much opinion. Unfortunately, you would actually have to have a lot of soldering to do to really get a feel, and most people just don't have that need on a regular basis.

Hilarious the "hi, hi, hi" bit. That is annoying for sure. But you don't look at the display when you are actually soldering. One of my T12 clones flashes random numbers while heating up, and I never held that against it. One of my Hakko clones showed perfectly linear and insanely quick ramp up to the set temp, pretty much flipping through every single degree on the way up. Which was obviously a complete farce. About 10 seconds after it hit the set temp, you might actually be able to melt solder.



 

Offline elektropionir

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #604 on: July 20, 2018, 11:22:08 am »
Hello!

Good video by Dave as usual but I would like to point few things, after waiting for this product to come out for some time now...

1) Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.

2) Iron plating thickness "issue" claim is absolute bullshit unless you are using your soldering iron to dig holes in your garden.
At work, I use JBC iron that is on all the time. I have bunch of tips that are 4-5 years old and they are still in good condition despite heavy use. I have large size tips that I use to burn trough litz wire insulation or trough Triple insulated wire all the time. I often apply a lot of pressure to push the thick trafo pins out of large copper surfaces and so far I have not damaged or destroyed a single tip.
I would expect similar lifetimes from both JBC and Pace.

2.5) JBC tips are affordable. They are already between  20-30 euro, however there are constant offers from suppliers, as well as different shops on ebay in EU that offer them for under 20Euro.

3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...

3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.

4) Handles... I like the handle design but "improving" or claiming indestructibility, or implying that competition's product is feeble and just falls apart is nonsense. JBC handles are very strong and thin. They also offer different grips you can attach and I find them quite comfortable.

Anyways, I am a little bit disappointed by this product, from a reputable company. It would do the job, but it just does not look like a well developed product.
Presently JBC is a better offer for money at least in EU.

Furthermore,

Someone mentioned using wide-range SMPS in soldering stations. I believe companies that produce soldering stations are not up to such challenge. While it is possible, and they could blow any current product out of the field in terms of speed of response, and temperature stability and controllability, they would have to deal with very complicated EMC and safety standards, and most likely they would not do it well.
Furthermore, they would have to change their temperature control method (it would become very complicated), because SMPS do not like high AC loads. Output caps would suffer and limit the lifetime of device drastically. It is far from impossible, but many fail at simple 50Hz-Triac method that current controlled SMPS would be like asking for a space-x rocket from a corner store bakery.
50Hz trafo is a very reasonable approach, simple because it is robust, safe and cheap.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 01:35:13 pm by elektropionir »
 
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Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #605 on: July 20, 2018, 12:49:30 pm »

3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...

3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.


I don't know who you are, but I like you already. I feel the same way. It's a soldering iron. You can write a dead-easy round robin program to monitor keypresses, process input information, set display, set force values, and it would all fit into maybe 3K. The PCB design looks ... unskilled. Definitely someone on their first few PCBs ever.

Then again, large companies that make toaster ovens also can't seem to debounce rotary selector switches correctly, companies that make microwave ovens can't make a reliable keypad, washing machines that flash error codes that aren't in the manual, etc...
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #606 on: July 20, 2018, 01:13:26 pm »
Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.

It's supposed to be 225 euro list price for the 230V standard model. Dealers are possibly just listing it for whatever price they want to at the moment. Noone was even comparing it to a JBC anyway just the power spec is similar. Dave took that from this thread (that Cliff made up) and ran with it on his video. Cliff could have wrote Apple iWatch killer for all the difference it makes.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 01:33:55 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Online Simon

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #607 on: July 20, 2018, 01:22:53 pm »
They seem to have used a lot of.... parts. why an active rectifier? just PWM the element and measure the temperature the ADC in most micro-controllers would surely suffice? and a bit of consideration to board layout. Were there vent holes in the back at the top? one set of holes will not be the most effective.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #608 on: July 20, 2018, 01:38:11 pm »
They seem to have used a lot of.... parts. why an active rectifier? just PWM the element and measure the temperature the ADC in most micro-controllers would surely suffice? and a bit of consideration to board layout. Were there vent holes in the back at the top? one set of holes will not be the most effective.

Yes it has vent slots at the rear as well.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Online Cliff Matthews

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #609 on: July 20, 2018, 01:38:53 pm »
Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.

It's supposed to be 225 euro list price for the 230V standard model. Dealers are possibly just listing it for whatever price they want to at the moment. Noone was even comparing it to a JBC anyway just the temp spec is similar. Dave took that from the title of Cliffs thread. Cliff could have wrote Apple iWatch killer for all the difference it makes.
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).
 

Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #610 on: July 20, 2018, 01:43:18 pm »
I can't help but wonder if the thermal performance could be improved with a better designed control circuit?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 02:51:53 pm by labjr »
 

Offline Shock

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #611 on: July 20, 2018, 01:58:17 pm »
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).

I'm not telling you to, but it does draw a lot of attention from JBC users though :scared:.

I wasn't interested in a JBC at all when I was considering the Pace. It's not because it was JBC. I don't like fancy hard to replace blue displays, stand being anchored to the side of the station, price and tip cost. I also prefer if gear has jelly bean parts least I need to repair it easily out of warranty.

That's not hating on JBC, it's just not what I wanted. I also wanted a dual iron station so I made a compromise and got two ADS200s.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #612 on: July 20, 2018, 02:09:37 pm »
Hello!

Good video by Dave as usual but I would like to point few things, after waiting for this product to come out for some time now...

1) Comparing ADS-200 with JBC is absolutely fair! In EU JBC is around 380-400 Euro. ADS-200 is 355Euro. I have no idea where this 199$/200e figure comes out but I cannot see those offers anywhere.
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...

2.5) JBC tips are affordable. They are already between  20-30 euro, however there are constant offers from suppliers, as well as different shops on ebay in EU that offer them for under 20Euro.
You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?

3) The PCB design in ADS200 looks quite bad. Using outdated micro-controllers and external ADC is amateurish from a company designing mass produced product that is very cost sensitive. To me this is pure incompetence. "No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...
What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?

The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.

3.1) 7segment displays with two buttons, i feel this type of user interface was outdated in the 1980s.
Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.

Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)

And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.

4) Handles... I like the handle design but "improving" or claiming indestructibility, or implying that competition's product is feeble and just falls apart is nonsense. JBC handles are very strong and thin. They also offer different gripsrt. you can attach and I find them quite comfortable.
Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.

Someone mentioned using wide-range SMPS in soldering stations. I believe companies that produce soldering stations are not up to such challenge. While it is possible, and they could blow any current product out of the field in terms of speed of response, and temperature stability and controllability, they would have to deal with very complicated EMC and safety standards, and most likely they would not do it well.
Furthermore, they would have to change their temperature control method (it would become very complicated), because SMPS do not like high AC loads. Output caps would suffer and limit the lifetime of device drastically. It is far from impossible, but many fail at simple 50Hz-Triac method that current controlled SMPS would be like asking for a space-x rocket from a corner store bakery.
50Hz trafo is a very reasonable approach, simple because it is robust, safe and cheap.
I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.

SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)

And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #613 on: July 20, 2018, 03:20:47 pm »
I think JBC has more aggressive D part of PID.. It probably has more of an overshoot. Also it poses the question if there is such thing as too fast recovery..
There are stations now that deliberately make temp recovery slower, to minimize thermal shock on components. Some Ersa stations have a three level setting for thermal recovery inertia..

I think Pace is good enough for general work, on par or slightly better than Hakko. Good choice of tips and good tip prices.

JBC tips are very expensive, they sell tips for tweezers individually..

But , more or less, you can get Ersa, or Hakko or PACE and get a good tool.
What I want to see if this ADS200 station will accept thermal tweezers.

With every manufacturer, tweezers demand different power unit. If this PACE ADS200 will accept micro tweezers, and you give a good choice of inexpensive tweezer tips... That's a winner.
LED display is awesome. User interface is meh, adequate...

So for me if there will be good and affordable tweezers that I can connect directly to ADS200 power unit so I don't have to buy separate PSU is a winner..
Also, nobody makes power unit with two iron sockets, but with a switch, to select iron 1 or 2 only one at the time. Todays units are so fast, you could switch back and forth with a switch.
If you release tweezers for ADS200 I might just buy ADS200 and tweezers and make something like that externally...


 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #614 on: July 20, 2018, 04:04:53 pm »


With every manufacturer, tweezers demand different power unit. If this PACE ADS200 will accept micro tweezers, and you give a good choice of inexpensive tweezer tips... That's a winner.
LED display is awesome. User interface is meh, adequate...

So for me if there will be good and affordable tweezers that I can connect directly to ADS200 power unit so I don't have to buy separate PSU is a winner..
Also, nobody makes power unit with two iron sockets, but with a switch, to select iron 1 or 2 only one at the time. Todays units are so fast, you could switch back and forth with a switch.
If you release tweezers for ADS200 I might just buy ADS200 and tweezers and make something like that externally...

Thanks for the comments. A new Thermal Tweezer is in the works but will not be available until at least Oct/Nov and will only work on the ADS200.

Aaron
 
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Offline In Vacuo Veritas

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #615 on: July 20, 2018, 04:57:32 pm »
So I guess "No JBCs were harmed in the making of this thread. This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events, locales, and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual unsurpassed thermal performance is purely coincidental."
 

Offline elektropionir

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #616 on: July 20, 2018, 06:45:43 pm »
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...

Well we are comparing SOME prices, and I like to compare prices that I would be charged, not some wishlist wholesale prices. I think that is fair.
We were told it would be around 200USD or 200Euro. And so far I have not seen these prices anywhere. Presently this product costs as much as JBC in EU and in AU, so I think the comparison is fair.

If Pace becomes 100Euro in the future, i would recommend it as an incredible value for money, but now it is just not!

You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
Please send me a link to a 10 Euro chisel Pace tip?
And yes, tip price of 20-30 euro IS affordable. An engineer lives and dies by his tools, so 20E is nothing for a tool that you will use for years if not decades. I love to have good selection of tips for all jobs.

What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
Modern uController offers many advantages, that I do not have time or desire to go into here. But more importantly, using an obsolete micro and quite frankly wasting money on unnecessary components elsewhere is a statement of just simply bad and unprofessional level of design. At the very best, done by someone inexperienced.

It should be fixed already. I do not want to re-flash my tools, or have weekly updates. Again, it is a soldering station, not a smartphone...

Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.

Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)

And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.


I will not comment on your personal taste or preference, but you just used "strawman" logical fallacy by assuming I want JBC style interface.
I was not commenting on JBC display or ERSA, or WELLER... I said the user interface is dated. I have seen dirt cheap Chinese products with proper interface and a clear display, so it CAN be done for a price. (one more advange of using modern uControllers)

Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
It was a slight hyperbole but not much. One of their advertising point in their materials is "THE QUALITY", as well here it was mentioned many times about the effort of redesigning the handle completely. While I appreciate attention to details, it somehow feels like they have missed many, and I say many a weak spots of this product.
Again it is evidence of amateurism.


I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.

SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)

And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)

Wrong again. Actually to get a professional level SMPS, well tested and reliable, and to make it for a price. To pass approvals and safety test, takes about 1-1.5 years of work of one or two competent engineers.

You are suggesting they should simply replace 50Hz trafo with a fixed output voltage, wide input range SMPS designed by 3rd party. That might be too expensive, AND/OR would require heavy filtering on the output of the smps and the result would still be sh*t with compromised limited lifetime. I was talking about AC load not AC output current, but ok, pulsed load if you wish...
It is far from unsolvable problem, it is matter of money spent of filtering, but standard of the shelf power supplies would have a lot of trouble with 100Hz pulse load because output caps would see entire ripple current.
It is very hard to find a well designed SMPS in the class D amps now that you mentioned it.

A smart way to do this would be to incorporate SMPS controll loop into the control of the tip temperature. You would have a current output smps, that is controlled by a temperature control loop. And all this could even be done digitally with the modern uController.
That is why I said they would have to change their temperature control method.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #617 on: July 20, 2018, 07:01:15 pm »
I'm not entirely impressed by the Pace's construction, but the lower TCO due to the tips being reasonably priced and probably longer lasting is very attractive. When you get to the nicer bits of kit, it's all about TCO. The initial purchase price really isn't that relevant.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #618 on: July 20, 2018, 08:00:06 pm »
Welectron:

Ultra 1131-0055-P1 (6.35mm Chisel)13.82 €
JBC C245-966 Soldering Tip 6.5x1.7mm Chisel 21.43 €

Ultra 1131-0008-P1 (1.20mm 30° Chisel)13.82 €
JBC C210-008 Soldering Tip 1.3x0.6mm Chisel 29.33 €

So yes there is difference, especially if you want to buy a collection of tips
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #619 on: July 20, 2018, 08:14:27 pm »
He wasn’t comparing EU list prices...

Well we are comparing SOME prices, and I like to compare prices that I would be charged, not some wishlist wholesale prices. I think that is fair.
We were told it would be around 200USD or 200Euro. And so far I have not seen these prices anywhere. Presently this product costs as much as JBC in EU and in AU, so I think the comparison is fair.

If Pace becomes 100Euro in the future, i would recommend it as an incredible value for money, but now it is just not!
Nobody said it would be $200. The MSRP is around $240 and the street price so far is between $220-240. You are basically angry that they didn't meet a price point that you imagined in your head.

Edit: Here's the link to Pace's actual statement on prices: "The ADS200 is only US$239/€ 225/£199 each vs WJS 100 US$360/€ 325/£265 each!"

What their regional distributors do is out of their control. Yeah, it sucks that many of them mark things up insanely, but it's not Pace's fault. (Believe me, this stuff angers me all the time, I live in Switzerland, famous for high markups. At least it's gotten better over the past 25 years…)

You think even €20 on sale is “affordable”, when Pace and Ersa do it for €10?
Please send me a link to a 10 Euro chisel Pace tip?
And yes, tip price of 20-30 euro IS affordable. An engineer lives and dies by his tools, so 20E is nothing for a tool that you will use for years if not decades. I love to have good selection of tips for all jobs.
Tips aren't the part you use for decades. They're consumables, and you may need lots of them.

What concrete advantages does using a “modern” MCU confer?
The temp jumping is obviously software, so presumably they can fix this in a future firmware version.
Modern uController offers many advantages, that I do not have time or desire to go into here. But more importantly, using an obsolete micro and quite frankly wasting money on unnecessary components elsewhere is a statement of just simply bad and unprofessional level of design. At the very best, done by someone inexperienced.
If you're unwilling to list any advantages of a modern MCU, then I'm unwilling to accept your argument.

It should be fixed already. I do not want to re-flash my tools, or have weekly updates. Again, it is a soldering station, not a smartphone...
Agreed that the firmware seems a bit rushed. It also seems they're running into issues due to this being their first foray into lower cost markets, and thus suddenly being exposed to the different expectations of the hobbyist user group.

Retro, yes. But is it actually worse? I hate the LCD on my Ersa (not backlit, so hard to read under a shelf), and the dot matrix LCD on the JBC looks terrible.

Tons of people would be happier to just have a damned knob and a simple temp display. (Look at how many people wish Hakko had not replaced the FX-888 with the FX-888D, which has an awful user interface.)

And of course there’s also simple product differentiation. Pace does make some models that use LCDs, but they’re higher-end.


I will not comment on your personal taste or preference, but you just used "strawman" logical fallacy by assuming I want JBC style interface.
I was not commenting on JBC display or ERSA, or WELLER... I said the user interface is dated. I have seen dirt cheap Chinese products with proper interface and a clear display, so it CAN be done for a price. (one more advange of using modern uControllers)
You said it was dated, and I basically agreed. My question was basically as to whether the new interfaces are actually superior, because I think they're often not.

Nobody claimed competing handles were falling apart.
It was a slight hyperbole but not much. One of their advertising point in their materials is "THE QUALITY", as well here it was mentioned many times about the effort of redesigning the handle completely. While I appreciate attention to details, it somehow feels like they have missed many, and I say many a weak spots of this product.
Again it is evidence of amateurism.
You keep calling them inexperienced and amateurs, but they've been in this business for 60 years.

I asked about using universal input SMPSs. I don’t think we are on the same page, though.

SMPS design is not exactly an obscure art these days, but moreover they could do like everyone else and just have a PSU manufacturer custom build a PSU board. (Like how if you open an Apple or Panasonic or whatever brand product, and inside you find a custom PSU made by TDK-Lambda or Delta or whatever. Not even big brands waste time on PSU design, so why would a little company like Pace do it? No, you just have a specialist company do it for you. It’s cheaper, faster, and safer.)

And what do you mean about AC loads?!? A soldering iron heater is perfectly happy with DC, it doesn’t need AC. It’s not as though SMPSs have trouble with pulsed loads — if they did, devices that use an SMPS to power a class-D amplifier would have trouble, but they’re commonplace. Same with things like LED video walls, whose current draw changes at the display refresh rate.)

Wrong again. Actually to get a professional level SMPS, well tested and reliable, and to make it for a price. To pass approvals and safety test, takes about 1-1.5 years of work of one or two competent engineers.

So… what am I wrong about? LMAO. Sounds to me like you like to cry "WRONG" for the fun of it, completely unrelated to factual accuracy.

Are you saying it's cheaper, faster, and safer to design a PSU in-house than to outsource it to a specialist company? Yeah, right. I have a bridge to sell you…

You are suggesting they should simply replace 50Hz trafo with a fixed output voltage, wide input range SMPS designed by 3rd party.
I asked about it because I am curious as to why soldering stations have remained with linear power supplies while nearly every other type of product has moved to SMPSs, which have many advantages. It's a valid question.

Your followup comments imply to me that you continue to be not on the same page, I think we're discussing very different things somehow. I don't think you've really understood my point.

That might be too expensive, AND/OR would require heavy filtering on the output of the smps and the result would still be sh*t with compromised limited lifetime. I was talking about AC load not AC output current, but ok, pulsed load if you wish…
Again: what the fuck does an "AC load" mean? A heater is a resistive load, it's neither inherently AC nor DC.

Why would it need heavy filtering? A resistive heater has a ton of thermal inertia, so there's really no need for heavy filtering at all.

It is far from unsolvable problem, it is matter of money spent of filtering, but standard of the shelf power supplies would have a lot of trouble with 100Hz pulse load because output caps would see entire ripple current.
It is very hard to find a well designed SMPS in the class D amps now that you mentioned it.
Hahahah yeah, right. Then how come power supplies routinely handle exactly such loads?

A smart way to do this would be to incorporate SMPS controll loop into the control of the tip temperature. You would have a current output smps, that is controlled by a temperature control loop. And all this could even be done digitally with the modern uController.
That is why I said they would have to change their temperature control method.
You mean using tip temp feedback directly in the SMPS control loop? That'd be interesting for sure. More complicated than anything I envisioned, but presumably more efficient.

Oh, here we go again with the "modern MCU" schpiel… give it a rest.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 08:50:43 pm by tooki »
 

Online exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #620 on: July 20, 2018, 08:48:13 pm »
It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.

Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how  "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #621 on: July 20, 2018, 09:56:22 pm »
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 
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Online exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #622 on: July 20, 2018, 10:02:49 pm »
I think JBC has more aggressive D part of PID.. It probably has more of an overshoot. Also it poses the question if there is such thing as too fast recovery..

Idk, but not having overshoot was a marketing program of JBC. They even produced some plots, you can google their report.

PS poor jbc, looks like people really try hard to find flaws in their irons just because of provoking thread title.

PPS I'm happy user of a t12 clone :P
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #623 on: July 20, 2018, 10:06:09 pm »
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Well, it’s obvious, you’re going to have to order another. That one is taken.  (Beautiful kitty, by the way!! <3 )
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #624 on: July 20, 2018, 10:10:17 pm »
It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.

Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how  "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.
 


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