Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 163859 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline labjr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 248
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #625 on: July 20, 2018, 10:13:00 pm »
Nothing wrong with a linear power supply. In fact, I prefer a linear supply and Class A amplifiers too. Linear supplies are simple and reliable. Who cares about efficiency? Not me. I feel like I'm getting more for my money when there's a heavy transformer inside. All the top brands of soldering stations still use linear supplies.

SMPS power supplies are more complicated and have reliability issues, EMI problems etc. Judging by the failures I've seen, they're hard on filter caps and they fail catastrophically. All those cheapo T12 clone stations use SMPS supplies. No thanks.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 03:28:00 am by labjr »
 

Offline Fsck

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: ca
  • sleep deprived
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #626 on: July 20, 2018, 10:13:20 pm »
It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad.

Up until now I haven't seen any complains about JBC tips. Actually, I sew the opposite: people reported them as long-living ("you never have to buy it again"). It's amazing how  "general opinion" can swing so much in such a short period of time. Worse yet, without any actual reliability data (other than relative thickness of protection layer, which says nothing about performance in, e.g., my case). So, may be PACE is twice more reliable. But if it's 100 years vs 200 years, who cares? :)
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.

I think it's also that not very many of us are using them as production irons so we're not blowing through the plating as quickly.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki, Dyaxxis, PACE-Worldwide

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4095
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #627 on: July 20, 2018, 11:15:27 pm »
Quote
"No calibration" feature is just a marketing BS. I am sorry for being harsh, but hardware "particularities" are obvious in software as well, with temperatures jumping up and down all the time... To me, there is no excuse for this. Soldering station is a simple product, and today there are countless fast and cheap u-Controllers on the market that could eat anything you throw at it. JBCs are using dsPICs and they have usb interface, and you can get stm32s for pennies today...

This is not just harsh, it's a little-off base. We just watched Dave open up multiple sealed tips, set the temp, and BAM. Like magic, they measured within 1 degree of the set temp. That is impressive, in itself. Sample of only what, 2? or 3? But they hit the mark. Hakko made a station that did this (I don't know if it was as spot on), but they needed to put a barcode on the different sized/shaped tips. And last I checked, they dropped the whole idea.

Then the modern micro thing? Firstly, what does that matter? Second, which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC? Finally, why in the world do you think the hardware is causing the temp to jump? What makes you think the temp is jumping, at all? As far as anyone knows, simply from watching this video, the iron was doing exactly what it was supposed to. It could be a software thing that affects only the display.

Can you tell us what you have used USB interface for on your JBC?

As far as iron plating and set temp, there's only 2 things that I care about, here. Yes, like Dave, I aim for the lowest temp that works, properly, for the task at hand. But as far as "damage to components," that is typically not even on my radar. The temp is only one part of the equation (and set temp isn't equal to the temp the joint gets!). The other part is dwell time. So when the joint flows, you remove the iron. It's not rocket science.

Back to the 2 thing that matter. The reason for the lowest temp that works is tip life and how fast does the tip crust over and oxidize. So at this temp..

1. How long do the tips last?
2. How often do I have to stop and clean the tip due to oxidation and/or burnt flux to keep it working?

You have to do a lot of soldering to find out.

Pace traditionally makes irons for production work. To put in perspective, Metcal/Thermaltronics recommend their 700F series tips for general purpose including leadfree. The average set temp (probably depending on tip size/shape) is? Wait for it.... 370C. Metcal are also well regarded in production soldering environments.

The fact that JBC will melt the leadfree on a big ground plane at 285C (with a beastly huge tip)? Unless the tip lasts significantly longer and requires less frequent cleaning, it's nothing but a fancy parlor trick.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 11:56:53 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline elektropionir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: de
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #628 on: July 20, 2018, 11:59:42 pm »
First of all, that is one nice kitty :)

@Tooki

You are right regarding the price. I did not check the advertised numbers for some time. I remembered it was around 200E. So it was 225E. However current prices are what they are.
I was commenting on what I see online regarding offers. And so far there is only one store that is holding these (welectron !?), until today I did not know this shop, but they have Pace. Are there any others that currently have ads200 in stock.

Quote
You are basically angry that they didn't meet a price point that you imagined in your head.

You are assuming my state of mind and my motivations. Please do not do that because I do not get emotionally invested in a simple commodity or into internet discussions. It is a stupid soldering station not cure for cancer. I was simply commenting on one aspect of what was advertised vs delivered.

You asked a question of using SMPS in soldering stations. It is perfectly valid question. I asked myself that previously as well..

There are a LOT of drawbacks to using smps, not the least of which is that they are complicated.
Compared to 100-200W standard 50Hz trafo, SMPS will almost always be more expensive and less efficient.

Older soldering stations as well as JBCs have one active component, a triac, or in  this new PACE mosfet bridge that is much more efficient but still nice and simple to control. They do not even need a heatsink for the bridge since they switch them at 0V crossing.

SMPS will have between 3-5 switching components, and all of them will have more losses. Radiated and conducted noise are going to be much higher and subject to become a problem over time...

Standard SMPS has around 200 components. As you said, there is no chance they could assemble them inhouse. They would have to source them from 1 company, while they can get their trafo from 100 companies produced to their specifications. SMPS might have to be custom made by the supplier to fit their housing, and it is hard to find a supplier willing to do that job since approvals will have to be redone, unless volumes involved are very high.
Prices of the trafos will probably not change while prices of SMPS are not as stable. Lead times during past 2 years are insanely high for magnetics as well as semiconductors...

Simple trafo has a good power factor. It is much more safer and more reliable. It will work in 100 years as well as it works today. No lifetime limiting elcaps. One elco usually found is powering a micro, and other low power electronics. From a volume point of view for 100ish W 50Hz trafo might even be smaller.

I believe you misunderstood my comment about filtering, it has nothing to do with thermal mass of the tip...

Heater is a fixed value, and output of the PSU is a fixed voltage. For duty cyle 100% lets say that is 100W. if you want to lower the power to 10W, you switch it with 10% duty cycle. In switching moment the output elko will see high peak current (I called it ac load because from the PSU side you will see those AC peaks trough the output elkos, while I admit pulsed load is better term it might be due language), despite being 10W only the ripple of the elkos will be the same. For higher switching frequencies losses and problems rise exponentially.

@KL27x
Stm32 and dsPICs have internal 16bit micro, and if your thermocouple amplifier is solid, you will get the same "magic" :)
You do not need USB, but you get it for free, so your customers can update the firmware when you publish it. No way to update pace.


Pleasant weekend!

« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 12:24:30 am by elektropionir »
 
The following users thanked this post: Alex Eisenhut

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5448
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #629 on: July 21, 2018, 12:28:14 am »
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
I see you've similar lab assistants.  :o  >:D

If I can get the lot to settle just long enough for a photo, I'll post it. Unfortunately, mine are both clever and camera shy enough that this will be a tough task.
 
The following users thanked this post: Alex Eisenhut, tooki

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4095
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #630 on: July 21, 2018, 12:32:30 am »
Elecktropionir: Obvious circuit/PCB design guy. Am I right? Just put the little bits on there, and then those other dudes just make the rest happen. :)

(Also, when I see the display/temp thing, I'm super inclined to think it's software, not hardware.) :)

Good weekend!
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #631 on: July 21, 2018, 12:51:56 am »
Quote from: elektropionir on Today at 07:59:42 pm
@KL27x
Stm32 and dsPICs have internal 16bit micro, and if your thermocouple amplifier is solid, you will get the same "magic" :)
You do not need USB, but you get it for free, so your customers can update the firmware when you publish it.
No way to update pace.

I think Aaron covered that in #55 (and maybe another thread?). When required, they send it along with PLCC tweezers.

*edit Another post over on EEV#1106 here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1106-pace-ads200-soldering-station-review-(jbc-killer)/msg1685777/#msg1685777
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 01:13:09 am by Cliff Matthews »
 

Offline labjr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 248
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #632 on: July 21, 2018, 01:15:08 am »
If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 02:51:57 am by labjr »
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #633 on: July 21, 2018, 02:25:55 am »
I actually love the user interface (button, up, down) and LED display.  If you look in Dave's video, you can always see the ADS200 clearly and JBC's screen though an advanced one with more info on it, is a pain to read.  I think the UI is clean, simple, and solid.
 

Offline Dyaxxis

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 24
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #634 on: July 21, 2018, 04:00:44 am »
:palm: So is there a consensus to change the title then? (Google's URL linking won't change, and Pace has been very good to tend this thread and explain the product was never intended to unseat products at double the price).

Nah! You're good! It's just a title for good kicks and a good way to see how any and all manufacturers will do their very best!  :-+

I'm just rolling with it.  8)
 
The following users thanked this post: Cliff Matthews

Offline Alex Eisenhut

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2507
  • Country: ca
  • If you can buy it for 4$ on eBay, why design it?*
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #635 on: July 21, 2018, 06:27:35 am »
Thanks, Taz is a gentle giant of a cat. He likes everything except being brushed, if you can tell.

I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.

1) It does deliver tons of heat. If you ignore the display jumping around and just use the thing, it does provide great thermal performance. I tried melting solder onto a piece of double sided copper clad, using a 13/64" Ultra tip. It's faster than my Hakko 936 set to the same 700F. But the 936 is melting the solder too, just a bit slower. Using the huge 5/16" Ultra tip I was able to almost instantly melt solder onto a Canadian dime.

2) It heats up in seconds, my Hakko takes tens of seconds.

3) While the iron is small and light, the cord weighs more than the iron. Feels a bit odd. But it fits nice in the hand and the distance to the tip is much better for smaller work than the 936.

4) The ISB cord is shorter than the iron cord. I put my Hakko station on a shelf and keep the iron on the desk, but with the PACE this is not possible because the ISB cable is so short. If the ISB connector were on the front... (It's probably easy to transplant the connector from the rear)

5) The stand is good, it's really not that hard to get the iron to land correctly to trigger the switch. I agree with whoever said it should have been done through the iron cord, but what do I know.

6) The power supply is large and heavy. You can insert the iron cord easily and the unit doesn't move. It does look a bit odd, on the one hand you have the large cast bezel and the extruded case, but the front panel is just a piece of sheet aluminum. On the other hand it'll make adding the ISB connector to the front easier, unless the PCB is in the way inside. The power switch feels a bit cheap, not as robust as the Hakko's. The bezel is also a carry handle of sorts.

Overall I'm happy, some firmware weirdness needs to be fixed IMO, the jumping display just doesn't inspire confidence.
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 
The following users thanked this post: PACE-Worldwide

Offline Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3416
  • Country: au
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #636 on: July 21, 2018, 08:27:38 am »
You sure about that? My impression here on the forums was that Ersa tips last forever, Hakko is in the middle, and that JBC and Weller are more short-lived.

You are correct sir.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3416
  • Country: au
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #637 on: July 21, 2018, 08:56:30 am »
I'm not a video-making kinda guy. Here are my observations of the iron so far.

I like the power switch, anythings better than reaching around the side or over the back and a pain if it blocked by other gear.

One solution for the ISB cord is to DIY up an extension, it's probably hard to account for all situations when it comes to length. In the past I left my stands and station at the back of the table, but bring the stand forward if I must. I'm still deciding on the final resting place for the new stations as I now I have a few more mounting options to try out.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline MacMeter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 319
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #638 on: July 21, 2018, 09:16:06 am »
If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting  :popcorn:

As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.

You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.

 
The following users thanked this post: Alex Eisenhut

Offline Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3416
  • Country: au
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #639 on: July 21, 2018, 10:07:47 am »
So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: PACE-Worldwide

Offline MacMeter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 319
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #640 on: July 21, 2018, 10:26:19 am »
So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I agree and obviously a user USB style update system would be an advantage in this situation and Pace I'm sure is aware of that, but it wasn't initially designed or marketed to need that functionality. So it's like saying "where is the power supply?" on your soldering iron. I hope that makes sense.

I understand it was not designed into this model, but I think any manufacturer these days that have any onboard electronics that control the products performance, settings, etc., would be wise to consider adding such a low cost somewhat “future proof” ability.

I wasn’t thrilled when I found out there were firmware updates on my BM235 DMM, but no way to upgrade, other then buying another, then another. It was my fault as I never thought DMM’s were ever upgraded. I love it, it’s my #1 meter, but as I’ve grown older, unless I have some real need for an electronics product immediately, I have learned to be more patient and besides reading and watching reviews etc., I usually WAIT awhile and no longer desire to get the first ones off the assembly line. This more mature approach has paid off so many times. It’s good insurance to avoid buyers remorse!

I will say, that at least Pace has the replacement chip option for those few without a computer to do a firmware update, but I don’t think that would be the norm, and they could save some cash with downloadable firmware.
 

Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1986
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #641 on: July 21, 2018, 04:00:21 pm »
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • Country: us
    • PACE Worldwide Website
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #642 on: July 21, 2018, 04:44:21 pm »
If it's such a breeze, we'll be seeing firmware and redesigned boards in no time. I'll be waiting  :popcorn:

As I’m not currently in the need for station (TS100 doin da business), I do read the threads on the Pace, as well as Dave’s review, since I think it’s great to have an alternative to the Hakko 951, basically the same price wise. At work I use a Hakko 888D, and hate the interface.

So I don’t have much to add but do feel compelled to comment on what the Pace rep. said in regards to the company being “old school” in their policy of mailing out replacement chips for firmware updates.

I can’t speak for the costs in materials, packaging, postal fees, and labor, and wait period for the customer, but considering that the Chinese are including a micro USB port on almost all of the E-cigarette “mods”, for charging as well as FIRMWARE UPDATES, many of these costing $25 U.S., the phrase “old school” seems more like “crazy”.

You download a file, you plug into your PC, flash, and your done, newest features, bug fixes, etc. Don’t like it, flash back. This also works on the $40 TS100, not just ecig devices, as you all know. Time and cost savings, and better customer satisfaction. Hopefully by the time I need or desire a home “station”, this would be implemented. That’s my two cents FWIW.

We hear you ... this was something discussed and will be implemented in future stations.

Aaron
 
The following users thanked this post: MacMeter

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2704
  • Country: tr
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #643 on: July 21, 2018, 05:12:37 pm »
WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • Country: us
    • PACE Worldwide Website
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #644 on: July 21, 2018, 05:16:51 pm »
WRT USB FW updates, can't do it, or do these old school 8051 µCs from the eighties come with USB now?



Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2704
  • Country: tr
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #645 on: July 21, 2018, 05:23:22 pm »
Well, I meant future stations, not the ADS200 ...

 :-+
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
The following users thanked this post: PACE-Worldwide

Offline Alex Eisenhut

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2507
  • Country: ca
  • If you can buy it for 4$ on eBay, why design it?*
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #646 on: July 21, 2018, 06:23:18 pm »
Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).

Multiples of 5, not powers.
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #647 on: July 21, 2018, 07:05:30 pm »
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.
 
The following users thanked this post: PACE-Worldwide

Offline PACE-Worldwide

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • Country: us
    • PACE Worldwide Website
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #648 on: July 21, 2018, 07:47:38 pm »
which suitable micros have a 17 bit ADC?

Not needed at all. 9+ bits is enough. Also, looks like the display can only display numbers that are power of 5 (was my impression from Dave's video, don't have access to any good internet to check).
9-bits sufficient? Maybe not, there's 500 steps alone between tip extremes - min(350F) and max(850F). Someone else may want to comment on higher resolution and/or over-sampling to establish delta, but more data is preferable than less.

I'll mention that too. The thought is that it can be annoying to have all those single digits flashing. But some of our older equipment had single digit resolution, so why not here? You let it go single digit for 10 digits, then switch to 10 degree jumps ...
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2128
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #649 on: July 21, 2018, 07:53:22 pm »
There is a balance of too much information vs. just the right amount.  Too much can be distracting.  Too little can not be informative enough.  I don't mind a granularity of 5 degrees at all.
 
The following users thanked this post: PACE-Worldwide


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf