Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 171055 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alex Eisenhut

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2593
  • Country: ca
  • If you can buy it for 4$ on eBay, why design it?*
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #675 on: July 23, 2018, 11:02:58 am »
I don't know what came over me to do this this morning, but here we are. I'll finish up later.
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5448
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #676 on: July 23, 2018, 06:23:44 pm »
As promised, I got it today, but it looks like someone else is enjoying it ATM...
Finally uploaded a few photos. Here in the Post a picture of a cat! thread.
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4096
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #677 on: July 23, 2018, 08:17:06 pm »
Quote
Concerning display and other fancy features. It is true they are not essential for soldering. But noobs like me like them. So, it's just a matter of target market. Also would make possible to change profiles, preset temperatures, etc easier (ersa with configuration on sdcard is a joke).

I personally like rotating encoders with push button. Minimalistic and convenient.

A company that does not have experience with encoders should not be using them for this. Months or years later, when the encoder wears in and the device becomes buggy or even unusable is too big a liability for this. Additionally, a rotary encoder just keeps spinning. A pot, you don't have to look at, which the pot is much preferable to me for a soldering iron control. (Absolute encoders are a thing; a very expensive thing). And finally, no matter how fast is your fancy micro, if you turn a given encoder too fast, it is going to miss steps.

Another problem is the issue of when the encoder actually fails. The parameters of an electric encoder are very specific, and they must be accounted for in the software. If the part can no longer be sourced 10+ years down the line, your station could turn into a paperweight, for practical purposes. Replacing with a different encoder even with the same number of detents could prove problematic due to different bounce characteristics and whatnot. Barring hours of tweaking and debugging and hacking. It may be possible to account for this in the software, in the first place, at least if your micro has speed and resources to dedicate to this. But considering how many devices I own where the designer can't even get the originally specc'ed encoder to work, properly, this is not realistic to just assume as a given. Having tinkered with encoders, myself (with less than 100% reliability, admittedly), I suspect to account for wider range of replacement parts, it might require significant compromise, such as in regards to max rpm that can be detected (at least without user interface to change parameters, which not only takes "work" for the user, but is going to be difficult to do when the only user input is not working).

Save encoder for navigating menu that is more complicated than temp up or down. It might look cool when Marco Reps does it. But anyone who were to rely on that station will eventually curse the design choice.

This is not a TS-100; nor is the TS-100 the future of soldering irons.  :)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 08:50:27 pm by KL27x »
 

Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2068
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #678 on: July 23, 2018, 08:53:26 pm »
A company that does not have experience with encoders should not be using them for this
[skip]

I think you are exaggerating problems. Anyway, you can say the same about pretty much everything, including buttons. They can become obsolete, they miss pushes, you have to look at it, etc. Just buy parts with standard footprint from a reputable supplier, that's the secret. Reliability data is to be found in the datasheet.

BTW, there are other components that can become obsolete. Like, that ADC, etc.

> your station could turn into a paperweight, for practical purposes

That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).

PS Do you propose to build all the equipment only with push buttons and 7-segment leds? Otherwise I don't really see the point. Most tools on my bench have screens, etc. I see no point replacing them with something without screens and encoders.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2593
  • Country: ca
  • If you can buy it for 4$ on eBay, why design it?*
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #679 on: July 23, 2018, 10:17:59 pm »
The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?

Warranty void, huh?
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • Country: us
    • PACE Worldwide Website
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #680 on: July 23, 2018, 10:20:24 pm »
The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?

Warranty void, huh?

YEP, I'm tellin' on you ...!  ;)
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6046
  • Country: ch
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #681 on: July 23, 2018, 10:23:01 pm »
I wonder if performance could be improved with a more aggressive ramp-up curve with a bit of overshoot. Or the ability to select different performance curves required for the task.
In regard to selectable curves, Ersa does that on their i-Con 1/2/4 models.
All the i-Con series have that, even the nano and pico. (It’s configured via SD card, using the desktop app.)
I wasn't aware the SD card was usable for that.

Seems a bit of a PITA though vs. the rotary encoder with button operated menu system in the bigger siblings.
I think it’s on purpose, so that in production it can’t be dicked around with.

This post (which is actually a reply from me to you in another thread! :p)  has a screenshot of the software for the nano/pico so you can see the options.

[Edit: corrected URL]
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 12:14:41 am by tooki »
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5448
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #682 on: July 23, 2018, 10:37:46 pm »
The Alex Edition. Not bad huh?

Warranty void, huh?
:-DD

Much nicer solution than splicing the ISB cable.  :-+

Perhaps PACE could sell an extension cable for those that need it?

I think it’s on purpose, so that in production it can’t be dicked around with.

This post (which is actually a reply from me to you in another thread! :p)  has a screenshot of the software for the nano/pico so you can see the options.
Could well be the reason they went that way vs. a USB port.

No explanation of Energy that I saw in the screenshot, but I presume there's a README file that comes with the software and/or thoroughly spelled out in the manual.
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4096
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #683 on: July 23, 2018, 11:08:25 pm »
Quote
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.

When you change a pot, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's gonna do SOMETHING. The wrong encode can speak complete gibberish as far as the specific device is concerned. This is not the same thing as a button failing. You can replace a switch with anything, even if the footprint doesn't work you can jumper it in and stick it somewhere.

Quote
I think you are exaggerating the problem.
My Korad PSU is an example. Worked perfectly for about 6 months or maybe a year. Now it is a struggle to change the voltage. It goes down, perfectly. When turning it up, it often goes down... very, very quickly. So you end up taking 2 steps forward 50 steps back. So 1 turn CCW reduces voltage by 10 steps... 1 turn to the CW turns the voltage down by 100's of steps.  This is what makes the encoder failure so bad. It's not like you just have to press a shoddy button a few extra times until it works. It can get to where you can't steer the boat to where you need it to go, because it only has 2 flavors of wrong. This has happened to several electronics devices I have owned. I have 3 presets on there I use, but I can't easily adjust the temp.

Quote
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair
Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer. I can't get an encoder to work as responsively and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code. There's a break point that is easily reachable by manual turning of the knob where steps are missed or interpreted wrong. And all kinds of stupid stuff CAN happen when I inadvertently turn the knob partway through a step and let go. I'll have to revisit that, later. Eletromechanical contacts make bounce, and it is possible this bounce can be indistinguishable to a digital input pin from an actual valid encoder output if you want high responsiveness). And even replacing the encoder, I'm not going to waste my time for that work, considering the first one didn't last a year. Even if identifying the exact one is possible. I have thought of replacing it with a micro that outputs a clean encoder signal (and controlling that micro with regular button switches). But the time to do that vs the $ to buy a new one, it's gonna be a long time before I encounter enough shoddy encoder programming before that pays off for the time. And I always seem to have a bigger fish to fry.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:51:40 pm by KL27x »
 


Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2068
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #685 on: July 23, 2018, 11:53:39 pm »
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.

I agree with this, had problems with this in the past. Requires some thinking when replacing.

Yet again, using your logic I can say ADS200 is a very unreliable product. Here how a real soldering iron should look like: https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pensol-sl963/soldering-irons-and-guns/sorny-roong-industrial/ . No "moving" parts -- less chances to brake it. No unreliable leds, switches, transformers, buttons, plugs, etc. Just pure reliability. If tips are obsolete, one can make new once from a thick copper wire. Heating wire is also not a problem. There is no distracting display. It's a perfect tool for post-apocalypse era.

My Korad PSU is an example

It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke. This doesn't mean anything (scientifically speaking sample size is too small).

Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer, even I can't get an encoder to work as reliably and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code).

Just use this algorithm: https://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/rotary-encoder.html#Taming_Noisy_Rotary_Encoders . I tried it, works like a charm, no skipping, jumping, etc on a cheap and noisy Chineese encoder (sometimes there are more than 100 bounces per click). Or use a ready library (although nothing worked for me, so I had to roll my own).

Anyway, I think you projecting too much personal bias on this.
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4096
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #686 on: July 23, 2018, 11:55:34 pm »
Yes, I have personal bias. I'm a production solderer. If you think the TS-100 is a well-designed tool, you have a different bias.

I'll check out that algorithm when I have time. I have plenty of devices I have to depend on which use encoders. And in most cases, they work fine. But I believe you are inevitably going to run into issue. Where if you turn the knob at just the right frequency, it will output noise that looks the same as a valid output when viewed through a digital filter. You will more than likely end up with a compromise that either can drop a true positive or let through a false negative every blue moon. The gray code is very simple, maybe too simple.

Quote
It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke.
The ADS is a cheap soldering station. Same price bracket. You increase the cost of parts and the complexity and hold to a low price point, and something might give. For something that only outputs 2 signals, relative up or relative down, with no absolute position/measure, the electromechanical encoder is relative pain in the rear. And I wouldn't go out of my way to incorporate an encoder (for the first time) in something where 2 buttons does just as good of a job. You would have to do a lot of testing before you know what may happen 5 years down the road. Not to say that an encoder knob can't be fun or cool or increase the enjoyment of the user. I'd just get more enjoyment knowing it will work and/or be easy to fix when it doesn't.

Here's an example: I have a name-brand router with an amazing speed control. You can belt out a pretty good rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb on it by tweaking the speed dial. It maintains constant speed in the cut, even at low speed. I have a different brand that is made in the same factory, but without the speed control; it has just a simple power dial. Functionally, the fancy speed control doesn't matter. The other router just spins up to a higher idle RPM when it's not cutting. You might argue that it will burn the wood at the beginning of the cut, but this is just theory and it has zero practical effect. The fancy one actually has a functional downside. It produces more heat at lower speed settings. Extended use at low speed setting without cooldown will actually kill the thing; says so in the manual. Yes, the fancy one is cooler and more fun to use. I love it. But I'm not a professional woodworker, and it doesn't matter to me if my router breaks or I have to give it a rest. So while yes, people are willing to pay more money for it, and it makes them happy, this doesn't mean it will produce better results, nor increase efficiency/productivity, nor be more reliable. For a production soldering station, my own bias is towards reliability, efficiency/productivity, and operational/maintenance cost. When you do something as a job*, it doesn't matter the bells or whistles. After 2 months, you won't notice them. When you hear that perfect pitch constant hum, it won't be cool, anymore. You'll want to throw it in a river, quit your job, and become a hobo, just like with any other router. But if/when it breaks and you lose a days work on it, your mood will be even worse when you're pulling an allnighter or working over the weekend after buying a new router, let alone twiddling with a godforsaken eletromechanical encoder.

*If it's monotonous and repetitive. And production soldering has to be monotonous and repetitive. It's too expensive (too many chances for mistakes) when it is not.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 03:09:12 am by KL27x »
 

Offline JonM

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #687 on: July 24, 2018, 04:08:34 am »
My ADS200 arrived late this afternoon, a full month (June 22 - July 23) since ordering it from TEquipment. Two weeks were probably spent in transit. I live 240 miles from the Pace factory but the ADS200 was shipped from Oregon, 3000 miles away. In any case it looks like TEquipment has a few in stock, at the moment.

I got the ISB stand, and these tips:

 1131-0055-P1 1/4" Chisel (6.35mm)
 1131-0008-P1 3/64" 30 Degree Chisel (1.20mm)
 1130-0026-P1 1/16" 30 Degree Bent Chisel (1.59mm)
 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30 Degree Chisel (2.38mm)

All of them seem to work. I think that I would prefer the bent tip to be conical rather than a chisel, I see that there is such an option and will order it at some point. It is a very fine point though.

The ADS200 replaces a Hakko FX888 (old analog, not D). Before that I had a series of Weller and Ungar soldering "stations".

My needs are minimal, I certainly do not solder every day. Besides the obvious advantages of instant heat and accurate temperature control, being able to change hot tips is fantastic. I probably only used two different tips on the Hakko, but I would often power it up and only realize that the wrong tip for the job was installed after the tip was at temperature.

I was able to solder a wire to a large piece of 0.6 mm thick of copper sheet using the 6.35 mm tip at 343C with no problem. That is great, in the past I would have had to pull out a huge direct AC mains connected iron to do that. I also soldered headers on several breakout boards and all went well.

Like Dave, the fractional inch descriptions on the tip tubes drive me (an older American) crazy. I wrote the metric equivalent on my tubes, but I will probably keep them on the stand since I have a limited number. At least Pace does include the widths in mm in their literature.


 

Offline elektropionir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: de
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #688 on: July 24, 2018, 11:19:05 am »
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge:
.

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
You have good eyes! I'm still curious where Vin for the 7805 comes from (it won't boot without it..) The body diodes?

*Edit - In future model updates etc..
If Pace considers a single transformer with dual winding's, they might consider internal wiring only, since a station incorrectly strapped for 120v on 240v would require 80v mosfets and good crowbar to protect (yet again another reason for SMPS as some have suggested).

I watched the video, and I think you are right, there must be a 5th mosfet somewhere (probably in the ground line) that switches the heater on or off at 0V crossing after rectification.
That means they have losses on 3 Rds_on at all time.
They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

 

Online Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1857
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #689 on: July 24, 2018, 11:53:48 am »
@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..
 

Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2068
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #690 on: July 24, 2018, 11:55:07 am »

They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
 

Online Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1857
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #691 on: July 24, 2018, 01:28:56 pm »

They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
Seems true.. and Dave's traces would suggest gating times can as be short as one half cycle (see attached traces). Still, it doesn't answer my other question: What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?
Gees-Loius... I just may have to open mine up...
 

Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2068
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #692 on: July 24, 2018, 02:45:24 pm »
What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?

I have two ideas

1) there is a separate rectifier, but I don't see it.

2) FET bridge supplies  two paths: one is to the tip, and another one to [beefy diode s560, big capacitor and 7805].
 

Offline elektropionir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: de
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #693 on: July 24, 2018, 02:47:18 pm »
@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..

That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.

It does not, simple charge pump and few bipolar transistors would would do wonderfully. Or if you are really inventive, connect the source of your analog switch to ground and trafo outputs and tip heater to drains, but in that case care must be taken about powering low power electronics...
 

Online Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1857
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #694 on: July 24, 2018, 03:08:34 pm »
Those mosfets can pass up to 7a (as per datasheet), so unless I misunderstood you, that bridge supplies the tip..
 

Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2068
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #695 on: July 24, 2018, 04:09:08 pm »
That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...

It doesn't make sense to use fet bridge just to supply 7805: 1) current is too small 2) total voltage drop won't be smaller as 7805 will drop down to 5v. So, no benefits. Looking at traces, I think they go the handpiece connector.
 

Offline elektropionir

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: de
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #696 on: July 24, 2018, 06:44:38 pm »

Perhaps I was unclear.
What I am saying is the fact that they need rectified signal for 7805 has nothing to do with rectifying the power for the heater. That was the crux of my comment.
If the mosfet bridge is connected as it was described on the previous page, it is always active and you always have rectified voltage, so they probably take power from there, but not necessarily. It is absolutely unimportant.

Do they take the signal after the bridge, or do they take just one diode before the bridge, to make a half wave rectifier for 7805, it makes no difference to an overall impression of inefficient design of first rectifying and then separately controlling the heater element.

And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.
 

Online exe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2068
  • Country: nl
  • self-educated hobbyist
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #697 on: July 24, 2018, 07:09:01 pm »
And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.

There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15)
 

Online Cliff Matthews

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1857
  • Country: ca
    • General Repair and Support
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #698 on: July 24, 2018, 08:20:31 pm »
Pace tip's are fully grounded and the TC is in series* with the heater. It would seem single samples must be taken across the shunt ~90 degrees after on-time zero crossings, but not more than 10sps is available on that ADC. The numbers weigh-in heavily for accuracy so, maybe that's the side benefit of having 17-bits?

Another question could be how do they measure the TC when the bridge is not gated? or do they have to? maybe the firmware auto-learns every tip by dynamic profiling (IE curves change, depending on thermal mass).

*edit - 25c resistance is generally ~4.3 ohms for high mass tips and ~4.0 for the standard. Cord ground to tip shell is milliohm's.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 09:35:24 pm by Cliff Matthews »
 

Offline VK4GHZ

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
  • Country: au
Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #699 on: July 25, 2018, 12:25:04 am »
Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.

Quote
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.

And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?

This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 12:35:45 am by VK4GHZ »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf