Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 360816 times)

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #675 on: July 23, 2018, 11:08:25 pm »
Quote
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair/replace the encoder. Such people shouldn't buy soldering stations :).
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.

When you change a pot, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's gonna do SOMETHING. The wrong encode can speak complete gibberish as far as the specific device is concerned. This is not the same thing as a button failing. You can replace a switch with anything, even if the footprint doesn't work you can jumper it in and stick it somewhere.

Quote
I think you are exaggerating the problem.
My Korad PSU is an example. Worked perfectly for about 6 months or maybe a year. Now it is a struggle to change the voltage. It goes down, perfectly. When turning it up, it often goes down... very, very quickly. So you end up taking 2 steps forward 50 steps back. So 1 turn CCW reduces voltage by 10 steps... 1 turn to the CW turns the voltage down by 100's of steps.  This is what makes the encoder failure so bad. It's not like you just have to press a shoddy button a few extra times until it works. It can get to where you can't steer the boat to where you need it to go, because it only has 2 flavors of wrong. This has happened to several electronics devices I have owned. I have 3 presets on there I use, but I can't easily adjust the temp.

Quote
That must be a really bad engineer not to be able to repair
Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer. I can't get an encoder to work as responsively and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code. There's a break point that is easily reachable by manual turning of the knob where steps are missed or interpreted wrong. And all kinds of stupid stuff CAN happen when I inadvertently turn the knob partway through a step and let go. I'll have to revisit that, later. Eletromechanical contacts make bounce, and it is possible this bounce can be indistinguishable to a digital input pin from an actual valid encoder output if you want high responsiveness). And even replacing the encoder, I'm not going to waste my time for that work, considering the first one didn't last a year. Even if identifying the exact one is possible. I have thought of replacing it with a micro that outputs a clean encoder signal (and controlling that micro with regular button switches). But the time to do that vs the $ to buy a new one, it's gonna be a long time before I encounter enough shoddy encoder programming before that pays off for the time. And I always seem to have a bigger fish to fry.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:51:40 pm by KL27x »
 


Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #677 on: July 23, 2018, 11:53:39 pm »
You have to identify the encoder number of indents, and even then different encoders have different outputs, as far as noise and bounce. So replacing an encoder with one with the same diameter and footprint is not necessarily going to work.

I agree with this, had problems with this in the past. Requires some thinking when replacing.

Yet again, using your logic I can say ADS200 is a very unreliable product. Here how a real soldering iron should look like: https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/pensol-sl963/soldering-irons-and-guns/sorny-roong-industrial/ . No "moving" parts -- less chances to brake it. No unreliable leds, switches, transformers, buttons, plugs, etc. Just pure reliability. If tips are obsolete, one can make new once from a thick copper wire. Heating wire is also not a problem. There is no distracting display. It's a perfect tool for post-apocalypse era.

My Korad PSU is an example

It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke. This doesn't mean anything (scientifically speaking sample size is too small).

Engineer might not have access to the actual problem... shoddy code. (Yes, I'm a bad engineer, even I can't get an encoder to work as reliably and consistently as I want it to, even with my own code).

Just use this algorithm: https://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/rotary-encoder.html#Taming_Noisy_Rotary_Encoders . I tried it, works like a charm, no skipping, jumping, etc on a cheap and noisy Chineese encoder (sometimes there are more than 100 bounces per click). Or use a ready library (although nothing worked for me, so I had to roll my own).

Anyway, I think you projecting too much personal bias on this.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #678 on: July 23, 2018, 11:55:34 pm »
Yes, I have personal bias. I'm a production solderer. If you think the TS-100 is a well-designed tool, you have a different bias.

I'll check out that algorithm when I have time. I have plenty of devices I have to depend on which use encoders. And in most cases, they work fine. But I believe you are inevitably going to run into issue. Where if you turn the knob at just the right frequency, it will output noise that looks the same as a valid output when viewed through a digital filter. You will more than likely end up with a compromise that either can drop a true positive or let through a false negative every blue moon. The gray code is very simple, maybe too simple.

Quote
It's a very cheap PSU, no surprise it broke.
The ADS is a cheap soldering station. Same price bracket. You increase the cost of parts and the complexity and hold to a low price point, and something might give. For something that only outputs 2 signals, relative up or relative down, with no absolute position/measure, the electromechanical encoder is relative pain in the rear. And I wouldn't go out of my way to incorporate an encoder (for the first time) in something where 2 buttons does just as good of a job. You would have to do a lot of testing before you know what may happen 5 years down the road. Not to say that an encoder knob can't be fun or cool or increase the enjoyment of the user. I'd just get more enjoyment knowing it will work and/or be easy to fix when it doesn't.

Here's an example: I have a name-brand router with an amazing speed control. You can belt out a pretty good rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb on it by tweaking the speed dial. It maintains constant speed in the cut, even at low speed. I have a different brand that is made in the same factory, but without the speed control; it has just a simple power dial. Functionally, the fancy speed control doesn't matter. The other router just spins up to a higher idle RPM when it's not cutting. You might argue that it will burn the wood at the beginning of the cut, but this is just theory and it has zero practical effect. The fancy one actually has a functional downside. It produces more heat at lower speed settings. Extended use at low speed setting without cooldown will actually kill the thing; says so in the manual. Yes, the fancy one is cooler and more fun to use. I love it. But I'm not a professional woodworker, and it doesn't matter to me if my router breaks or I have to give it a rest. So while yes, people are willing to pay more money for it, and it makes them happy, this doesn't mean it will produce better results, nor increase efficiency/productivity, nor be more reliable. For a production soldering station, my own bias is towards reliability, efficiency/productivity, and operational/maintenance cost. When you do something as a job*, it doesn't matter the bells or whistles. After 2 months, you won't notice them. When you hear that perfect pitch constant hum, it won't be cool, anymore. You'll want to throw it in a river, quit your job, and become a hobo, just like with any other router. But if/when it breaks and you lose a days work on it, your mood will be even worse when you're pulling an allnighter or working over the weekend after buying a new router, let alone twiddling with a godforsaken eletromechanical encoder.

*If it's monotonous and repetitive. And production soldering has to be monotonous and repetitive. It's too expensive (too many chances for mistakes) when it is not.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 03:09:12 am by KL27x »
 

Offline JonM

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #679 on: July 24, 2018, 04:08:34 am »
My ADS200 arrived late this afternoon, a full month (June 22 - July 23) since ordering it from TEquipment. Two weeks were probably spent in transit. I live 240 miles from the Pace factory but the ADS200 was shipped from Oregon, 3000 miles away. In any case it looks like TEquipment has a few in stock, at the moment.

I got the ISB stand, and these tips:

 1131-0055-P1 1/4" Chisel (6.35mm)
 1131-0008-P1 3/64" 30 Degree Chisel (1.20mm)
 1130-0026-P1 1/16" 30 Degree Bent Chisel (1.59mm)
 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30 Degree Chisel (2.38mm)

All of them seem to work. I think that I would prefer the bent tip to be conical rather than a chisel, I see that there is such an option and will order it at some point. It is a very fine point though.

The ADS200 replaces a Hakko FX888 (old analog, not D). Before that I had a series of Weller and Ungar soldering "stations".

My needs are minimal, I certainly do not solder every day. Besides the obvious advantages of instant heat and accurate temperature control, being able to change hot tips is fantastic. I probably only used two different tips on the Hakko, but I would often power it up and only realize that the wrong tip for the job was installed after the tip was at temperature.

I was able to solder a wire to a large piece of 0.6 mm thick of copper sheet using the 6.35 mm tip at 343C with no problem. That is great, in the past I would have had to pull out a huge direct AC mains connected iron to do that. I also soldered headers on several breakout boards and all went well.

Like Dave, the fractional inch descriptions on the tip tubes drive me (an older American) crazy. I wrote the metric equivalent on my tubes, but I will probably keep them on the stand since I have a limited number. At least Pace does include the widths in mm in their literature.


 

Offline elektropionir

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #680 on: July 24, 2018, 11:19:05 am »
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge:
.

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.
You have good eyes! I'm still curious where Vin for the 7805 comes from (it won't boot without it..) The body diodes?

*Edit - In future model updates etc..
If Pace considers a single transformer with dual winding's, they might consider internal wiring only, since a station incorrectly strapped for 120v on 240v would require 80v mosfets and good crowbar to protect (yet again another reason for SMPS as some have suggested).

I watched the video, and I think you are right, there must be a 5th mosfet somewhere (probably in the ground line) that switches the heater on or off at 0V crossing after rectification.
That means they have losses on 3 Rds_on at all time.
They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

 

Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #681 on: July 24, 2018, 11:53:48 am »
@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #682 on: July 24, 2018, 11:55:07 am »

They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
 

Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #683 on: July 24, 2018, 01:28:56 pm »

They could have powered the heater with ac without any problems and save 3 mosfets, using only two N channel mosfets as bidirectional switch...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.
Seems true.. and Dave's traces would suggest gating times can as be short as one half cycle (see attached traces). Still, it doesn't answer my other question: What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?
Gees-Loius... I just may have to open mine up...
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #684 on: July 24, 2018, 02:45:24 pm »
What's powering the 7805 and ICL7660 when the tip is turned off?

I have two ideas

1) there is a separate rectifier, but I don't see it.

2) FET bridge supplies  two paths: one is to the tip, and another one to [beefy diode s560, big capacitor and 7805].
 

Offline elektropionir

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #685 on: July 24, 2018, 02:47:18 pm »
@elektropionir -Still, rds losses are less than rectifier's and then again, they still need cap-filtered DC for the 7805 and ICL7660..

That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...

This may require a separate isolated driver for gates (if I'm not wrong, my brain doesn't work well today)... May not worth the effort.

It does not, simple charge pump and few bipolar transistors would would do wonderfully. Or if you are really inventive, connect the source of your analog switch to ground and trafo outputs and tip heater to drains, but in that case care must be taken about powering low power electronics...
 

Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #686 on: July 24, 2018, 03:08:34 pm »
Those mosfets can pass up to 7a (as per datasheet), so unless I misunderstood you, that bridge supplies the tip..
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #687 on: July 24, 2018, 04:09:08 pm »
That has nothing to do with rectification of power signal to the heater element. And mosfet bridge supplies voltage for 7805...

It doesn't make sense to use fet bridge just to supply 7805: 1) current is too small 2) total voltage drop won't be smaller as 7805 will drop down to 5v. So, no benefits. Looking at traces, I think they go the handpiece connector.
 

Offline elektropionir

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #688 on: July 24, 2018, 06:44:38 pm »

Perhaps I was unclear.
What I am saying is the fact that they need rectified signal for 7805 has nothing to do with rectifying the power for the heater. That was the crux of my comment.
If the mosfet bridge is connected as it was described on the previous page, it is always active and you always have rectified voltage, so they probably take power from there, but not necessarily. It is absolutely unimportant.

Do they take the signal after the bridge, or do they take just one diode before the bridge, to make a half wave rectifier for 7805, it makes no difference to an overall impression of inefficient design of first rectifying and then separately controlling the heater element.

And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #689 on: July 24, 2018, 07:09:01 pm »
And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.

There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15)
 

Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #690 on: July 24, 2018, 08:20:31 pm »
Pace tip's are fully grounded and the TC is in series* with the heater. It would seem single samples must be taken across the shunt ~90 degrees after on-time zero crossings, but not more than 10sps is available on that ADC. The numbers weigh-in heavily for accuracy so, maybe that's the side benefit of having 17-bits?

Another question could be how do they measure the TC when the bridge is not gated? or do they have to? maybe the firmware auto-learns every tip by dynamic profiling (IE curves change, depending on thermal mass).

*edit - 25c resistance is generally ~4.3 ohms for high mass tips and ~4.0 for the standard. Cord ground to tip shell is milliohm's.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 09:35:24 pm by Cliff Matthews »
 

Offline VK4GHZ

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #691 on: July 25, 2018, 12:25:04 am »
Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.

Quote
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.

And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?

This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 12:35:45 am by VK4GHZ »
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #692 on: July 25, 2018, 03:58:58 am »
Aaron, does this mean we will be seeing v1.3 firmware soon?
See attached.

Quote
PACE Worldwide-AC
4 days ago
We're working on it! Will get back to everyone soon.

Probably in a month or 2. We're working on a a few minor tweaks. We also would like to wait a bit to see if customers find other bugs. Rather than send out 4 revisions in 3 months, we would rather wait a short period of time to see if any other issues come up, then send out a combined Rev "1-3". Make sense?

And how does the upgrade process actually work?
I know it's a replacement PLCC micro, but would Australian customers have to pay for the firmware upgrade via Mektronics (Australian authorised dealer)?
Or do Mektronics supply things like this to their customers complimentary, to justify their margins?

This is where a USB interface really shines vs PLCC IC.

The way it works is this:
  • First of all, make sure you know the version of your software/firmware, by switching on the power button, which will immediately flash the firmware version. At this time it is "1-2".
  • Wait for PACE to announce a software revision, as it's more likely that your request could slip through the cracks since a "1-3" revision is still likely to be at least a month or 2 away.
  • Go to www.paceworldwide.com/contact-us, and fill out the form with your request for an the latest firmware revision for the ADS200. You might want to mention the software revision currently on your ADS unit.
  • Make sure you include a good mailing address.
  • You could also request revised software through your authorized distributor, in your case Mektronics, but note that it's up to the distributor to determine whether you are charged for shipping.
  • PACE will send a new PLCC-44 with new software along with a chip puller, free of charge.

Hope this helps,

Aaron
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 04:15:58 am by PACE-Worldwide »
 
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Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #693 on: July 25, 2018, 06:38:19 am »
I wish it had a usb port or sd card slot for doing upgrades.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #694 on: July 25, 2018, 10:33:11 am »
I'm planning a US$450 station shootout.

Please include Chinese t12 clones.
 

Offline VK4GHZ

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #695 on: July 26, 2018, 08:29:38 am »
Well, I've ordered a JBC CD-2BE.
It was only $5 more than the ADS200, and comes with two tips.
(As much as I dislike the integrated JBC stand, and preferred the separate stand that the ADS200 has.)

I'm afraid the AUD$542 + GST pricing in Australia doesn't make the ADS200 attractive enough, considering the JBC unit is a mature product with a good track record.

I'm sure the ADS200 will, in time, build a huge fan base especially in the USA, but it really needs to be priced accordingly in other regions.
If the ADS200 were sub AUD$400 here, then it would be a no-brainer.

I'd like to say a big thank you to Aaron for his participation in this topic.
It's not everyday you get a company rep that keeps existing and potential new customers updated like he has on a forum like this.
I have no prior experience with JBC products, but Pace customer service will be hard to beat.

 
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Offline knapik

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #696 on: July 26, 2018, 09:10:58 am »
Don't blame you, the current price listed for Mektronics is a bit out of my price range, otherwise I would've bought one myself. One day when I'm not busy, I'll try out their "100% price match guarantee" and report if I had any success or not.
 

Offline elektropionir

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #697 on: July 26, 2018, 04:08:29 pm »
And my comment about using ac directly from the trafo with an analog switch is in the attachment in case I did not project my thoughts effectively.

There are two things to consider before going your way. One is there is not much benefit in efficiency and cost. Second is, if thermocouple in the tip is not floating, sensing from it can be troublesome in your configuration. But nice idea, reminds me this JBC diy station: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/download/file.php?id=11965&mode=view (full thread http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=6302&start=15)


Sorry for the late reply. I am quite busy these days....

The project you attached is really interesting, I haven't seen it before, I like the simplicity of that design. That was obviously done by competent designer....
Regarding the bold part of your comment, i think it is really not as complicated as you assume.

I have never seen pace tips, but I do assume they have similar approach like JBC, with 3 terminal cartridge where one pin is shared connection of heater/thermocouple. 
I cannot really see well on the video. Then they would need to do measurements only during off periods of the heater.

1) It would be a piece of cake for analog designer to design an amp circuit for measuring in the high branch, however there is another very simple solution with a small compromise.

2) If you limit yourself to measuring only during negative half-periods of the current from the trafo, you can keep lower mosfet (M4) off so current will not flow, and turn higher mosfet (M2) on during measuring. This would bring one pin of your heater to ground level, where you can then have your signal referred to analog ground for measuring.
This would simplify your amp design significantly, and I think 50/60Hz frequency for temperature control is more than enough.

Take care.
 

Offline knapik

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #698 on: July 29, 2018, 01:06:43 pm »
Seems like element14 have the station listed on their website now, but without any stock. The prices are $480 AUD with the ISB stand, and $430 without.
 
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Offline mbless

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #699 on: July 31, 2018, 04:37:50 am »
There are two N-fets and two P-fets (yeah, they are different, hard to see on video, but part numbers slightly different, they are ZXMP, not ZXMN). I wasn't able to trace all the traces, but I think it's this bridge:
.

Looking at the video, it seems the station has more part than I expected. Still curious how they use adc frontend.

Good call on the bridge.

I too was curious about how the controller works, so I decided to keep my unit and try and figure it out. I started tracing the signals over the weekend and am about halfway done; I have the ADC and MCU left.

I've attached a PDF of what I have now with some scattered notes. (Yes, the schematic is poorly laid out and messy. I'll clean it up when things start to make more sense.) I'll update the thread when I make some more headway. Hopefully somebody will find it useful.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 04:41:05 am by mbless »
 
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