Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 169351 times)

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Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1300 on: April 28, 2020, 05:30:47 am »
I'm still running 1.2  :(

Lost the 1.4 they sent you no doubt hehehe. The irony is 1.4 is the firmware you helped inspire.

Dave that low temp test has one large flaw. It will favor the station with the greater overshoot every time unless there is a large power difference. The idle temps might be the same but it doesn't mean they are soldering at that same temp.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 07:12:19 am by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
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Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1301 on: April 28, 2020, 07:36:16 am »
Hey Shock (and anyone else) - a quesrtion for anyone with the instant setback stand. Isn't the instant setback switch on that stand a simple microswitch?

If so, i was thinking about rigging up a foot pedal to act as that switch, since i tend to flip the power on and off as i need it, and maybe keeping a little box on the floor is easier than always reaching for the power switch.

It is a simple microswitch. If you scroll back you will see this post here which uses a low cost optical switch. I think the functionality works best though being in the stand itself. More like an automatic on/off switch when you are moving and returning the handpiece (which you have to do anyway). A low power wireless stand switch would work as well.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
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Offline Mp3

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1302 on: April 28, 2020, 08:49:50 am »
TY, i might be overthinking it. Also, I didn't realize anyone still used PLCC ROMs! Lucky Dave gets to swap a ROM  8)
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1303 on: April 28, 2020, 10:17:20 am »
The entire Pace Intelliheat series is the same as far as I'm aware. When you look at the rest of their products you start to see the reason behind some of the design choices in the ADS200, which looks a bit weird at first until you realize it's a sparsely populated military style layout of some of their multichannel designs.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: Cliff Matthews, Mp3

Offline dman777

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1304 on: April 28, 2020, 06:58:55 pm »
The proof of this is if you watch the video carefully it was reading high briefly on the thermometer.

I've been trying to study this and find it but I can not. Can you tell me, please, what time mark in the video this happens?
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1305 on: April 28, 2020, 11:27:13 pm »
I've been trying to study this and find it but I can not. Can you tell me, please, what time mark in the video this happens?

22m35s:
You can see the JBC when tested on a small thermocouple it's bouncing in pulses to 290C when a set temp of 280C is used. Dave and the JBC both say 280C but the tip temp is not shown while soldering.

23m30s:
You can see the Pace settle up to temp at 280C on the thermometer. He pre loads the Pace tip with solder immediately attempts to solder a joint. The Pace tip is likely gently recovering to 280C. The display confirms this when it goes between 270-280C.

It's important to note despite what Dave indicates the Pace is not working hard, if it was you would see the temp drop low on the station and the LED indicating heating is occurring. It's just keeping the tip regulated and will be somewhere just below 280C trying to gently regulate the last few degrees.

Both stations are doing different things, the Pace is trying to keep an absolute temp and the JBC is putting in larger bursts when it thinks been robbed of a few degrees. What is essentially being tested here is how both soldering stations regulate at an anemic soldering temperature, not maximum power delivery.

In JBCs own charts you can see they regulate the JBC to include an overshoot. This is the difference you are seeing in the video. Pace is regulating an undershoot to temp JBC is overshooting. Two different soldering temps are occurring and the Pace is the more accurate regulating station.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 11:44:05 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: Cliff Matthews

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1306 on: April 28, 2020, 11:46:40 pm »
Dave that low temp test has one large flaw. It will favor the station with the greater overshoot every time unless there is a large power difference. The idle temps might be the same but it doesn't mean they are soldering at that same temp.

Of course it will if a product overshoots. But that will be true regardless of the temperature used, so that argument is kinda moot.
And no one has come up with a better way to practically show the difference, short of welding a thermocouple to the tip.
In this case the JBC has 10W more power, so all things being equal you would expect it to perform slightly better than the pace.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1307 on: April 29, 2020, 12:05:51 am »
Thermocouples? I don't know why people are sticking to antique methods.
A thermal imaging camera is the way to do it.
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1308 on: April 29, 2020, 01:39:48 am »
Anyway Dman777 that is my explanation of the disparity. I doubt the 10W, plating and geometry differences had as much to do with it as the JBC overshoot and the Pace undershoot to temp which can easily account for a 30C soldering temp difference.

Both stations are fast and have plenty of power, the Pace just regulates more accurately as it's close to set temp.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: Cliff Matthews, dman777

Offline mbless

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1309 on: April 29, 2020, 04:37:29 pm »
I was admiring my new ADS200 last night and I realized that the cartridges only have two electrical contacts but the handle cable terminates in four electrical connections which has me confused. I was under the impression that each cartridge contains a thermocouple and a heating element.

Does anyone have any insight to how this works? Shining a light down into the handle seems to show that there are indeed only two electrical contacts. Did I completely miss something? I looked through Dave's review video and went through a good number of the previous comments on this thread but was not able to find any commentary on this.

Does the iron do something weird like put the thermocouple in series with the heater element and switches back and forth between power and sense? Is it actually just a PTC heater element with a calibrated curve?

I did some reverse engineering a while back
 

Offline mbless

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1310 on: April 29, 2020, 04:38:58 pm »
The blue is ground and the and green goes to chassis/earth. The white I assume is some kind of thermal protection or tip detection and not connected to the cartridge. It looks like a component is connected to it, I've never bothered to check it out.

The white wire is connected to a NTC thermistor for cold junction compensation.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1311 on: April 29, 2020, 05:49:33 pm »
Thermocouples? I don't know why people are sticking to antique methods.
A thermal imaging camera is the way to do it.
Emissivity might trip you up there. Getting meaningful and comparable results could be tricky.
 

Offline dman777

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1312 on: April 30, 2020, 03:23:14 pm »
As far as Pace's claim of no calibration when needed when changing tips, has anyone tested this? It wasn't tested on the eevblog review video but I feel that it should of. I would like to know if the claim of no calibration of changing tips is true in the real world results.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1313 on: May 01, 2020, 02:49:03 am »
Anyway Dman777 that is my explanation of the disparity. I doubt the 10W, plating and geometry differences had as much to do with it as the JBC overshoot and the Pace undershoot to temp which can easily account for a 30C soldering temp difference.
Both stations are fast and have plenty of power, the Pace just regulates more accurately as it's close to set temp.

That's my conclusion as well. I prefer using the Pace now, not for any performance reason, just "the vibe".
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1314 on: May 01, 2020, 10:43:04 am »
Anyway Dman777 that is my explanation of the disparity. I doubt the 10W, plating and geometry differences had as much to do with it as the JBC overshoot and the Pace undershoot to temp which can easily account for a 30C soldering temp difference.
Both stations are fast and have plenty of power, the Pace just regulates more accurately as it's close to set temp.

That's my conclusion as well. I prefer using the Pace now, not for any performance reason, just "the vibe".

Well, to me performance is spectacular too.. I was able to easily afford nice set of tips, and it works great...
Speaking of, I tried soldering on the large double sided unetched piece of FR4, and it worked much better than it did for you, Dave.
I did use two larger tips high performance tips, though. I think that it shows one more thing: today with cartridges, you compare tips with tips, not irons with irons. PACE and JBC have different thermal performance tips in same tip size, and comparing between the brands is hard  to do.

When I was deciding what new system to buy price was important but not primary. I would have easily given 200-300€ more if it meant measurable gain in performance (in real world scenario) or much better ergonomics or smaller running cost. I tried using JBC and it didn't feel right. It heats really fast, but for small solder joints there is no difference compared to ADS200 (or Hakko FX-951 to that matter). Soldering on large thermal mass boards, they ALL need preheat.. It's not even about how much power (thermal energy) you have in the soldering tip, it's about thermal conductance of the board.

Also (this is personal "feel" thing) JBC handles and tips just look like they are going to break any moment. They do not feel or look robust. I have big hands and they look like a toy. That being said, I'm very precise and gentle to the board and soldering iron and newer apply any force. I'm sure JBC would have lasted me for decades without problem. But it bothers me..
And ADS200 handle is fantastic to hold, tip distance is great too, aluminium makes it cold even after being on for hours.

I had problems with JBC tip wetting too. They kept going dry and unwettable all the time, doing same things, same temperatures (on controller screen), same solder and flux. It is either they have different materials in tip coatings, or temperature was higher that stated. I have an (unverified) theory that maybe because of very aggressive heating profile, there are microfractures forming on surface that promote this kind of behaviour...Like with everything else thermal shocks are very dangerous. JBC's super fast heating might be the problem. There is also discussion in industry that soldering stations (like reflow owens) should have heating profile, and that too fast and large thermal shock is dangerous to components.  So slower heat up is probably beneficial to components you are soldering. Preheat too.
And funny enough from JBC's own mouth:https://www.jbctools.com/dynamic-soldering-profiles.html

So after all of this it was PACE for me and my use case.
What about JBC then? Well, while PACE has large set of tips, JBC has even more, including some very specialist types. If that's what you need, than JBC is best for you. JBC also has it's tools in more sizes. They have larger soldering iron than PACE, and also smaller ones, down to tiny pico sizes, that are so small they are hard to hold in your hand (my hand anyways), so if that's what you want, yeah JBC it is..

So to sum up this saga, for me (and my use case) it is both vibe and performance.
Regards
Sinisa
 
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Offline ignilux

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1315 on: May 02, 2020, 07:37:00 pm »
Has anyone else had a tip just... stop working? I've had the ADS200 for about a year and a half, and I love it. My favorite tip was the "ultra performance" 5mm chisel, 1131-0010-P1, but in the middle of soldering last week "CHP" appeared on the display and the iron went cold. I plugged in a different tip and it behaved as normal. I cleaned the contacts on the original tip, stuck it back in, and nothing I tried could revive it. It had a pretty easy life, i.e. only 63/37 lead solder, only used the brass wool, and at no point did it get oxidized enough to warrant some sal ammoniac tip tinner compound. Always kept between 300 and 350 C. The whole thing just seems strange. Can anyone relate?
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1316 on: May 02, 2020, 09:51:29 pm »
Haven't had a problem and I've had quite a few tips for a similar length of time, a couple of years. The first thing to check is if you have inserted it fully, but if you think the tip is dead could be good idea to take a resistance measurement across the two contacts.

If it's gone, I'd send the original invoice and a photo of the tip condition in an email off to Pace and let them determine if it's a warranty issue.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline ignilux

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1317 on: May 03, 2020, 01:56:17 pm »
Oh, I'm quite certain that it's fully inserted. In fact, insertion to different depths was one of the things that I tried early on. I just measured resistance across the contacts, and it reads open. A few other known working tips were in the single digit ohms range, so looks like this is indeed toast. I guess I just don't really understand what could've happened? Like I said, it has had a pretty easy life. No thermal shock, no mechanical shock, etc. Sure sounds like a manufacturing defect. Is Pace good about warranties on disposable items?
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1318 on: May 04, 2020, 01:06:38 am »
Tips and consumables normally aren't covered by any type of warranty. As I said though send an email with your invoice and a photo of tip condition, mention it has failed open. They do have good customer service but it is up to Pace to determine if it's covered or not.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline dman777

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1319 on: May 05, 2020, 12:14:48 am »
Do most of you buy performance tips or the non performance tips? Not sure what I should start collecting when I buy the Pace. It will mainly be for soldering usb contact points in making usb cords. It might also be for occasional solder something on motherboards of my old game consoles when/if(cough) they break.
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1320 on: May 05, 2020, 01:39:24 am »
General soldering, tinning wires and making cables is not all that challenging but motherboards probably better off with the ultra performance tips.

In the range of tips some are only in ultra performance and some are only in standard. If you look at the size of the tips it makes a bit more sense, such as the large blade tips are already high mass and for smd rework rather than heating through hole. Cartridge tips have a fairly slim profile so the ultra performance tips aren't all that much harder to work with.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 01:41:40 am by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1321 on: May 05, 2020, 01:43:33 am »
Do most of you buy performance tips or the non performance tips?

I mostly use the performance tips unless I'm very tight for space on the board for some reason.
 
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Offline ignilux

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1322 on: May 05, 2020, 02:23:12 pm »
It's worth mentioning that all of the tips that are available for the ADS200 are quite affordable. The price delta between the regular and performance tips is so insignificant that there's really no point in getting a bunch of regular ones. I have one or two for, like Dave says, getting in to really tight spots. E.g. backside of a transformer that someone butted up against a cheap plastic connector.
 

Offline dman777

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1323 on: May 05, 2020, 02:25:37 pm »
Curious.... since iron is a bad conductor of heat, would the non performance tips allow better heat transfer and faster recovery? Since they are thinner with less metal?
 

Online Shock

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Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1324 on: May 05, 2020, 10:28:00 pm »
The standard tips are slightly faster heating from cold but during soldering they maintain a slightly lower average tip temperature than the ultra performance. In many situations this won't matter, but if you are soldering challenging joints the ultra performance tips are more advantageous.

Most soldering iron tips are constructed in the following manner:
  • Internal Copper Core: The core of each tip is composed of copper, an excellent heat-transfer material. Unfortunately, solder has a solvent effect on copper and will rapidly dissolve it when exposed to various solder alloys (especially lead-free solder). So it must be protected by another layer of plating.
  • Iron Plating: Iron plating is the protective layer electroplated over the surface of the tip, and the thicker the iron plating, the longer the life of the tip. But iron it is a terrible heat transfer medium, and if plated too much, the performance of the tip will be affected. Lead-free optimized tips are usually plated with 5-10 mils of iron plating, and any more iron plating will negatively affect heat transfer - tip will take forever to heat up or will not recover quick enough after soldering. All PACE tips are plated with 7-9 mils of iron.
  • Chrome plating: a layer of non-solderable chrome plating is usually to the back portion of the tip, applied to prevent the solder from creeping too far up the tip.
  • Tinning: The iron-plated working end of the tip is tinned with pure tin or solder alloy. This coating of solder protects the iron plating.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 


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