Author Topic: Pace ADS200 soldering station  (Read 169337 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mp3

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 325
  • Country: us
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1325 on: May 05, 2020, 10:32:29 pm »
Do most of you buy performance tips or the non performance tips? Not sure what I should start collecting when I buy the Pace. It will mainly be for soldering usb contact points in making usb cords. It might also be for occasional solder something on motherboards of my old game consoles when/if(cough) they break.

Once my non-performance chisel tip is too beat to keep using, i'm going to get the performance version and never look back. I really can not imagine why NOT to get one.

I might get a non-performance version of something super fine point to echo EEVblog's point, though i don't know that i've recently run into any situations where the extra mass of the performance tip would have screwed me up.

The ADS200 rules!!


The standard tips are slightly faster heating from cold

Lol you and I both know this is a totally moot point.  I don't even turn on my station until I'm ready to get the first solder joints done, performance tip or not.
 

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1326 on: May 06, 2020, 12:20:00 am »
Lol you and I both know this is a totally moot point.

I was illustrating to dman777 that faster heating from cold isn't the same as recovery during soldering. When it comes to bottlenecks (when performance counts) you always are going to be better off with the chunky monkey. Which series is better though depends entirely on your situation, for finer tips it doesn't matter as much.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: dman777

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2477
  • Country: ca
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1327 on: May 08, 2020, 10:53:03 pm »
Some pricing notes from accesstronik in CAD:
- MT200 tweezers $415 ($300 US) (no stock yet)
- MT200 tweezers with stand $475 ($340 US) 6993-0321-P1 (no stock)
- ADS200 station with handle and 2 free tips, no setback $335 ($240 US) 8007-0578
- ADS200 station with handle and 2 free tips, setback $395 ($282 US) 8007-0579
- ADS200 station with MT200 and stand $979 ($700 US)

So its cheaper to order the station + tweezers separately (~$800). Plus you'll need tips.. $70 each, not cheap but compare that to JBC at double the price.

As Dave said earlier, they don't seem to sell the ADS200 base on its own. If you need the two options (iron + tweezer), you either need to order two kits ($$$), or possibly just order the one ADS200 and use a switch board to flip over the connections. Someone did this with an Ersa, not sure how hard it would be on the Pace to do. Metcal is theoretically the easiest (just switch one pin over). These stations heat up so quickly that having two bases is really not necessary.

In terms of the MT200, I feel like there is some compromise here. The tip arms cannot come close to each other due to the wider design of the handle, so you end up with that 90 degree jog which means very limited clearance when trying to access tight areas. Compare this to Hakko/Weller/JBC tweezers, where the tips are more of a straight shot and very thin, so have excellent clearance.
Of course you can get the "extended" version, but unsure how it would affect performance:

1mm chip removal: https://paceworldwide.com/MT-200-chip-removal-tips-1130-1003-p1
1mm chip extended: https://paceworldwide.com/mt-200-extended-reach-tips-1130-1011-p1

Google MT100 or MT200 for any sort of videos/usage. Other than the Pace promo video, I can't find anything.
I suspect it would be possible to build the curve into the heater cartridge tube instead of the tip itself. The setup costs would be higher though.


Of course, this may end up not being an issue at all. Would have to use them first..
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 11:29:19 pm by thm_w »
 
The following users thanked this post: Cliff Matthews

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1328 on: May 09, 2020, 08:51:27 am »
Of course, this may end up not being an issue at all. Would have to use them first.

Haven't tried the MT200 yet but I've been using the MT100 now for about 18 months. The MT100 use similar cartridges and I've not had any problems using them. The MT200 should in theory be able to use different QFP removal tips as well if they release them. Perhaps that is what you are overlooking in the design.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Cliff Matthews

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2477
  • Country: ca
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1329 on: May 11, 2020, 08:06:40 pm »
Haven't tried the MT200 yet but I've been using the MT100 now for about 18 months. The MT100 use similar cartridges and I've not had any problems using them. The MT200 should in theory be able to use different QFP removal tips as well if they release them. Perhaps that is what you are overlooking in the design.

I just know the last board I reworked would have not been possible with those triangular shaped tips (1130-1011-p1) due clearance beside the component. With the fine point tips (1130-1001-p1) it would be possible, but might need to swap multiple tips.
Are you using the fine point ones typically?

I agree for anything through hole, or larger SMD the MT100/200 looks killer. I suspect thats more toward what they are aiming at, military type rework on older systems or with large thermal sinking.
With Metcal and JBC, they have both "standard" and "fine SMD" type tweezers, not saying it can't be done with one type though.
 

Offline yormac

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: nl
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1330 on: May 11, 2020, 08:11:50 pm »
is it possible to use a MT-200 tip in the regular TD-200 iron?
The 1130-1013-P1 tip would be a nice microsoldering tip for the TD-200.
 

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1331 on: May 12, 2020, 09:11:21 am »
Are you using the fine point ones typically?

For my Pace MT100 mini tweezers I have several different tips which include 0.2mm, 0.5mm and 1mm. I use the MT100 exclusively for these sizes and as I mentioned I have no problems with it. I also have a set of Pace TT65 tweezers which are a larger model, the smallest smd chip tip is 0.4mm.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32478
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1332 on: May 12, 2020, 10:00:45 am »
- ADS200 station with MT200 and stand $979 ($700 US)

Ouch. Have they just priced themselves out of the market?
I wouldn't pay my own money for that.
The ADS200 range is supposed to be their competitive low cost production option.
They already have established high priced tweezer and other solutions.
 
The following users thanked this post: labjr

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3328
  • Country: hr
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1333 on: May 12, 2020, 10:22:37 am »
- ADS200 station with MT200 and stand $979 ($700 US)

Ouch. Have they just priced themselves out of the market?
I wouldn't pay my own money for that.
The ADS200 range is supposed to be their competitive low cost production option.
They already have established high priced tweezer and other solutions.
I'm also confused with strategy here. Tweezers with stand (without controller) are more expensive than ADS200 station complete....
I expected MT200+ station to be,say, 100 € more than ADS200 set, not twice as much. I cannot be persuaded that there is a reason for MT200 to be so much more expensive than ADS200...
 
The following users thanked this post: labjr

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1334 on: May 12, 2020, 05:24:31 pm »
The ADS200 range is supposed to be their competitive low cost production option.

I think you mean Accudrive series, Paces tools are series compatible. I don't recall Pace saying the MT200 was low cost. In my opinion the Pace soldering irons and vacuum desoldering iron have a fairly low cost of ownership by comparison to the tweezers.

Most people who brought their Pace ADS200 paid under $250 in the US. The tweezers and stand are $365 at tequipment.net after eevblog discount so that would mean *both tools* and station for $615 (or about $655 if you paid the current full list from TE today). In other words don't pay full list for the MT200 with station unless you want to pay more money and forgo the free TD200 with stand. :D

Aaron told us before the MT200 soft launch it was going to cost more than the MT100. He also clearly explained back in 2018 (see below) that the ADS200 station itself was more expensive to make and was hoping to keep the ADS200/TD200 at $270 list for the ISB version initially. Here we are a couple of years later and it's at $295 list (according to tequipment at least).

...We’re just not making the amount of margin that we were on previous models!

...sticker shock for soldering stations is a very real issue for us, so we want to keep the price as low as is possible.

...Is ADS200 designed for the hobbyist? Not really, but we know the price point will be attractive to the hobbyist, more so than previous models.

…the ADS200 has about 85% parts commonality with the previous WJS 100 and ST 50 units, but actually ends up costing PACE more! The difference is that management would like to sell more stations and make more of the money on Tips and consumables rather than make higher dollars on the front-end sale.

I'm hoping they price the ADS200 station with ISB Tool Stand at $270 US, but it's not up to me ...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 05:31:33 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3328
  • Country: hr
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1335 on: May 12, 2020, 06:00:58 pm »
It is simple:
TD-200 AccuDrive Tip-Heater Cartridge Iron with Instant SetBack Tool Stand is 170 USD.
MT-200 MiniTweez with Instant SetBack Tool Stand is 407 USD.
That is 207 USD more. Stand is the same.  So handpiece is  207 USD more. I agree it should be more it's more complicated to make. But 100 USD more would be OK. 207 USD is simply too much of a difference.. You can  buy fantastic multimeter (Brymen BM869) for that kind of money...
Pricing is hard. I know, but if they make tweezers more affordable, many will buy them.. Even hobby users.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1336 on: May 12, 2020, 08:33:43 pm »
It could be cheaper I agree but it's more of a niche tool than the soldering iron is. Wait until you buy a few sets of tweezer tips and feel the slow burn.

For the Hakko FX888D tweezers they start at $55 list upwards per pair. That is for regular non cartridge slow-swap tips for 65W tweezers. Two pairs of tips are the same price as the entire soldering station and iron. Needless to say the performance/dollar value is pretty low there.

Edit:

You need to buy the Hakko FX203 dual channel station to run their mini tweezers. It's $450 (480 list) without tools, plastic tweezers are bit more expensive than the Pace MT100 at $260 (270 list). Tips start at about $65 (75 list).

Anyway I hope that cheers you up that others out there have also brought expensive tweezers.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 09:08:40 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2477
  • Country: ca
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1337 on: May 12, 2020, 09:11:20 pm »
- Weller WXMT-MS with tips and stand $265 US
- Hakko FM2023-05 with tips, set-back stand $300 US
- Metcal CV-UK4-UFT no tips with stand $330 ($385 with tips)
- Pace MT200 with tips and set-back stand $390

I will assume that when the set of MT200 + base is in stock they will drop the $700 to ~$560. Which is probably by far the cheapest you can find a base + tweezer of this quality. But its just not the "deal" that the ADS200 is.

Quote
management would like to sell more stations and make more of the money on Tips and consumables rather than make higher dollars on the front-end sale.

If they are making a lot of money off of $14 tips, I can't even imagine the money JBC is raking in with their $60+ tips that are notoriously fragile   ;D


It could be cheaper I agree but it's more of a niche tool than the soldering iron is. Wait until you buy a few sets of tweezer tips and feel the slow burn.

For the Hakko FX888D tweezers they start at $55 list upwards per pair. That is for regular non cartridge slow-swap tips for 65W tweezers. Two pairs of tips are the same price as the entire soldering station and iron. Needless to say the performance/dollar value is pretty low there.

I agree its niche, but anyway.
Hakko T9 tips are $56, Pace MT200 tips are $50. Its not really much difference. They are both fast swap.
FX888 tweezers are low-tier, not comparable to the pace imo.
 
The following users thanked this post: Shock

Offline hrbngr

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: us
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1338 on: May 13, 2020, 02:06:06 am »
hello,

I just tested 12 brand new tips on my new ADS 200 with a Hakko FG-100 that I purchased off of Ebay. The FG-100 had calibration stickers covering one of the screw holes, but I went ahead and removed them to open the unit and confirm that it had the F/C jumper inside--which it did.

I then tested w/a brand new 191-212 sensor and I averaged from 430°F up to 450°F, but none of them ever got close to 500°. So, on a good note, it looks like all the new tips are ok, but on the other hand, are those temperatures an acceptable result?

I also ordered a FG-100 knockoff for comparison purposes from Ebay, which should be here in a few weeks, I'll re-do the tests again in °C, since the clones don't seem to do Fahrenheit. 

For each tip, i liberally applied solder (Cardas Quad-Eutectic), then placed the on the center of the three leads until it stabilized.


Before proceeding w/further tests I wanted to confirm if that is normal behavior or what exactly I should be looking for.  Also, I'll have the 2nd clone tester to confirm temps soon.

Here are the list of tips:
P/N 1130-0015-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30°
P/N 1131-0008-P1 3/64" 30° Chisel (1.20mm)
P/N 1131-0019-P1 1/16" 30° Chisel (1.59mm)
P/N 1131-0010-P1 13/64" Chisel (5.15mm)
P/N 1131-0037-P1 1/4" Flat Blade (6.35mm)
P/N 1131-0012-P1 1/32" 30° Chisel (0.80mm)
P/N 1131-0013-P1 3/32" 30° Chisel (2.38mm)
P/N 1131-0051-P1 1/8" 30° Chisel (3.18mm)
P/N 1131-0032-P1 MiniWave (3.05mm)
P/N 1131-0003-P1 1/64" Conical Sharp Bent 30° (0.40mm)
P/N 1131-0001-P1 1/32" Conical Sharp Ext. (0.80mm)
P/N 1131-0054-P1 3/16" Chisel (4.78mm)
P/N 1131-0057-P1 5/16" Chisel (7.95mm)
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32478
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1339 on: May 13, 2020, 03:25:22 am »
I think you mean Accudrive series, Paces tools are series compatible. I don't recall Pace saying the MT200 was low cost.

No, but it's clearly part of the Accudrive serious and uses the same ADS200 base station. So there is reasonable expectation there.

Quote
Most people who brought their Pace ADS200 paid under $250 in the US. The tweezers and stand are $365 at tequipment.net after eevblog discount so that would mean *both tools* and station for $615 (or about $655 if you paid the current full list from TE today).

Yeah but then you have the switch tools with the one station and that's a PITA.
Most people (myself included) are going to want another ADS200 to drive just the tweezers.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1340 on: May 13, 2020, 08:22:50 am »
No, but it's clearly part of the Accudrive serious and uses the same ADS200 base station. So there is reasonable expectation there.

I don't think anyone was discussing the price of the MT200. In my opinion it's got to be at least 3x as much to make than the TD200 you can tell that just looking at it. When Aaron said that the MT200 was going to cost more than the old model I knew it was likely going to be more than the cost of the ADS200/TD200 at the time.

Why was the ADS200/TD200 ISB selling for about $225? It was triple discounted. Pace had a low introductory list price $265, tequipment was selling it on special and we had the eevblog 6% discount code on top.

That ended up being about $40 cheaper than list and now that Pace are not discounting the list price it's increased about $30. The total apparent savings was about $70 off a $295 station and iron.

On Tequipments website it clearly showed the discounted price and Aaron posted Paces list prices here several times. So no conspiracy theories. :D

Most people (myself included) are going to want another ADS200 to drive just the tweezers.

I'm sure they will sell the station separately at some point as they have in the past but it's up to Pace. I expect there will be at least 5 different Accudrive station models at a minimum.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2477
  • Country: ca
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1341 on: May 14, 2020, 08:38:04 pm »
I then tested w/a brand new 191-212 sensor and I averaged from 430°F up to 450°F, but none of them ever got close to 500°. So, on a good note, it looks like all the new tips are ok, but on the other hand, are those temperatures an acceptable result?

So you measured 430-450, but what was the iron set to?

Sounds reasonable, depending on what tips you measured low with. The smaller tips will be difficult to get enough thermal conductivity so the heat transfer to the thermocouple can be less. This is basically unavoidable when you have a separate heater element coupled to the tip that cannot extend to the end of it.
 

Offline hrbngr

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: us
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1342 on: May 14, 2020, 11:59:17 pm »
thm_w,

sorry for leaving that part out.

the ADS200 was set to 500F.  I had thought that the bigger tips would get close to that temperature, but they only seemed to about 450F.

Is the key point that the tips should all be in a similar range, w/the smaller ones lower temps than the larger ones, vs every tip matching the temperature of the station setting?
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2477
  • Country: ca
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1343 on: May 15, 2020, 08:44:13 pm »
thm_w,

sorry for leaving that part out.

the ADS200 was set to 500F.  I had thought that the bigger tips would get close to that temperature, but they only seemed to about 450F.

Is the key point that the tips should all be in a similar range, w/the smaller ones lower temps than the larger ones, vs every tip matching the temperature of the station setting?

That seems far off. It could be your measurement device is not accurate, tip is not making good contact with thermocouple, or there is a calibration issue with the station.

Correct on the second point. Most tips should be quite close but a very thin or long tip can be lower. Unless there is some magic they've managed to implement.
 

Offline dman777

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: us
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1344 on: May 21, 2020, 11:51:22 pm »
I bought a Pace ADS200 station and it came in today. The unit is really nice. But one thing really makes me upset was the way it was packaged. The main unit, which is very heavy(a good thing), was unsecured in it's cardboard compartment and tossed around. It tossed around so much it tore one of the walls of the cardboard compartment and bent the cardboard compartment roof lid some. There was no bubble wrap.

This is a really nice unit, but for $315(got the tips with it) I feel like it should of been packaged properly not to be tossed around during shipping.

Is this normal for Pace to ship the ADS200 like this? Anyone else have the same experience?
 

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3438
  • Country: au
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1345 on: May 22, 2020, 08:06:25 am »
It sounds like yours had a rough time with delivery as mine were ok. If you want to send Pace feedback you can email support@paceworldwide.com with some photos.

My stations didn't have bubble wrap around them, just plastic with the compartmentalized cardboard. If yours was really messed up it probably did its job at some point. Mine were similar to what you see here, the cardboard acts as a dampener so don't expect it to come out looking perfect.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM       >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
The following users thanked this post: dman777

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3328
  • Country: hr
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1346 on: May 22, 2020, 09:02:17 am »
Mine came pretty much picture perfect, with no distortion at all..
 
The following users thanked this post: dman777

Offline dman777

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: us
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1347 on: May 23, 2020, 12:59:42 am »
I was looking again and I see that there are two cardboard straps that hold the solder station up in the air to keep it from getting impacts from the ground. Those tore also.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:09:06 am by dman777 »
 

Offline karamba

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 43
  • Country: us
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1348 on: May 24, 2020, 09:29:13 pm »
I am on the fence between this and Hakko. What is instant setback stand ? Does the station go to sleep without it ?
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3328
  • Country: hr
Re: Pace ADS200 solder station. Production-grade quality at about $200
« Reply #1349 on: May 24, 2020, 10:00:35 pm »
I am on the fence between this and Hakko. What is instant setback stand ? Does the station go to sleep without it ?
It's better than Hakko..
ISB stand is there so it can instantly know when you put it on/off stand.
Without it it will also go to auto standby, but ISB stand is more important for instant resume when you lift it from stand.
Without ISB stand, you need to either touch buttons on station, or dip it in damp sponge to create thermal shock for station to detect activity, to start heating at full power again. With ISB cubby, you simply lift it, and by the time you get iron close to position to solder it is up to temp...
Price difference is not that big, I wouldn't get one without ISB.
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf