OT: New video camera for the blog

[EEVblog]

I just wasted a whole day of research and shooting video for my new Wayback Wednesday segment to find (once again) that my Canon HF G10 camera failed to record the video like it said it was doing by flashing the little red record icons.
To say I'm angry is an understatement, and no the files are not recoverable, I've tried 3 different programs.
Some of you may know this has happened before.

I will not let this camera destroy my sanity again. I want a new camera.

Suggestions please on a high end video camera to replace the Canon HF G10.
But PLEASE do not mention a DSLR, they don't do the job properly for my purpose and I don't want one.

[EEVblog]

Come to think of it, I probably don't have much choice but to stick with an upgraded Canon 
I already have the battery system that is common across by 2nd camera, macro lens, and operational familiarity.

[pickle9000]

I've used Canon for 20 years, a great deal can be said for sticking to that brand.

I have been eying some of the Panasonic camcorders (700.00-1000.00) dollar mark. The colour just looks amazing.

[pickle9000]

PANASONIC HC-X920

[bwat]

I understand when the "trust" is gone you may want to change brands but as an engineer you know there is no actual technical reason to.

Surely he has a very good technical reason to do so namely repeated failure. Brands are marketing thing, not a technical thing.

Actually I've never been disappointed with a Canon purchase.

[Legit-Design]

Teardown the HF G10? Or try fixing it with a big hammer? 

I've used Canon for 20 years, a great deal can be said for sticking to that brand.
I have been eying some of the Panasonic camcorders (700.00-1000.00) dollar mark. The colour just looks amazing.

Typically you would want as flat image as possible to have more to work with in post? But Dave doesn't do any color correction/grading or fancy stuff...

Come to think of it, I probably don't have much choice but to stick with an upgraded Canon 
I already have the battery system that is common across by 2nd camera, macro lens, and operational familiarity.

not much choice there.
Canon XA25, same sensor, same lens thread, but same batteries will not work. Yes it has long 20x zoom, which might not be needed, but other things are also upgraded.


more professional camera, maybe more durable and reliable?

From what I've understood the camera has been used really hard and one SD card slot is already dead and now it has developed this issue of not recording. Using pro-sumer camera for so long, something has to give eventually. I think the important bit is that your camera is already partly faulty, yet you choose to use it and hope it functions correctly.

[Legit-Design]

I'd be more inclined to agree if the repeated failure was with multiple cameras and there was some rash of problems on the internet. But there isn't, and Dave may just have a single faulty camera or card.

that camera is already faulty, the other SD card slot has not been working for some time now. And Dave has been doing video blogging professionally now for years.

[Legit-Design]

I'd be more inclined to agree if the repeated failure was with multiple cameras and there was some rash of problems on the internet. But there isn't, and Dave may just have a single faulty camera or card.

that camera is already faulty, the other SD card slot has not been working for some time now. And Dave has been doing video blogging professionally now for years.

Yes, I agree the camera is already faulty. I don't understand what point you are making. Also that Dave has been blogging for years. Are you suggesting he should have known better?

I didn't know his camera already had one faulty SD card slot. Was that the card slot that he had his previous problem with? Was it worn out from repeated insertions?

It's not a "professional" camera,  that's what I meant. Dave was talking about the camera I think on one of the recent long live streaming tests. Dave has to use some workaround to get it to record on the second slot and still had problems with it.

[EEVblog]

Was it with the same SD card you had the previous problem? Maybe you have damaged the card.

Nope, brand new.

Was it perhaps a problem with the same card slot? It might be faulty. Damaged contact, or dirt.

Nope, different slot.

I believe it is an intermittent software bug caused by inserting the memory card when the camcorder is on.
Almost all the time it works no problem, but very occasionally if you do this then you can encounter the bug where it then fails to record anything onto the card after it is inserted. It works and displays everything just as if you are recording (e.g. red record light, timers etc), but nothing gets written to the card. Or at least nothing that can be easily recovered.
The camera will display empty clips on the playback screen.

I understand when the "trust" is gone you may want to change brands but as an engineer you know there is no actual technical reason to.

There is a technical reason, this is not the first time I have lost a days worth of shooting to this bug. I'm pretty sure it's not a hardware fault.

The best solution if you can't identify a fault and get it repaired is to get another camera the same.

Not if you suspect it's software fault, in that case that's a very silly thing to do.

The new G30 model is claimed to fix many nasty bugs inherent in the previous G10 and G20 models.

[EEVblog]

Canon XA25, same sensor, same lens thread, but same batteries will not work.

WTF? Really? I was going to check that. 

From what I've understood the camera has been used really hard and one SD card slot is already dead and now it has developed this issue of not recording.

Yes, the other slot developed a fault, probably just bad contact. I've been using the 2nd slot for some time now.

I think the important bit is that your camera is already partly faulty, yet you choose to use it and hope it functions correctly.

That was entirely reasonable to assume that.
I believe the first memory slot has developed a bad contact, and that to be expected after thousands of insertions.
The 2nd slot was virtually unused, and I'm fairly certain this is an intermittent firmware bug at fault here. The HF G10 is known as having some bugs which Canon never fixed. They never released a new firmware update for it since it was released.

[Legit-Design]

Canon XA25, same sensor, same lens thread, but same batteries will not work.

WTF? Really? I was going to check that. 

My quick googling checks come without any kind of warranty. Hmm google says it's actually 1/2.84” HD CMOS PRO sensor . Looks like the XA25 has lot of additional features which cost extra money like, HD-SDI, the handle with sound things and XLR. I'm not sure but you might not need any of that.

Filter Diameter   58mm (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/hd_video_cameras/xa25#Specifications)

Batteries

Can battery packs BP-808D/BP-819D/BP-827D be used with the camcorder?
ID : 8201867600 _ EN _ 1
Solution   
BP-808D/BP-819D/BP-827D battery packs cannot be used with XA25 / XA20 / VIXIA HF G30 / LEGRIA HF G30.

If an incompatible battery pack is attached to XA25 / XA20 / VIXIA HF G30 / LEGRIA HF G30, the following screen will be displayed.

Battery pack is not compatible. Turning off the camcorder.

(http://kbsupport.cusa.canon.com/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1011&PARTITION_ID=1&secureFlag=false&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=60169)

[EEVblog]

The G30/XA25 looks really good.
Some new feature I don't have that would be very useful
- wider angle lens
- more zoom (not so handy, but ok)
- 3.5" screen instead of 3" screen, with increased resolution (super important for a technical blogger looking at boards etc through the lens)
- Much improved touch screen. The G10 is a dog to use, lots of pressure required.
- WiFi that allows manual control from a smart phone. The G10 only allows rudimentary control via remote
- MP4 recording (also simultaneous) which allows faster direct upload for non-edited stuff
- Bigger sensor for lower light work. For those not aware, a typical office environment is low light.
- 50P. Meh, might come in handy for action stuff.
- A real size shoe mount

But it's now over a year old? Maybe a new one in the works?

This seems like a comprehensive review:
http://tubeshooter.co.uk/2013/06/22/preview-canon-xa20-xa25-hf-g30/

[EEVblog]

My quick googling checks come without any kind of warranty. Hmm google says it's actually 1/2.84” HD CMOS PRO sensor . Looks like the XA25 has lot of additional features which cost extra money like, HD-SDI, the handle with sound things and XLR. I'm not sure but you might not need any of that.

Correct. The G30 is the base model as I have now. The XA20 adds the (removable, so turns into a G30) handle with external audio. The XA25 adds HD-SDI output to that.

[firewalker]

Are you sure that they have addressed the issue on newer models?

Alexander.

[EEVblog]

From:

This seems like a comprehensive review:
http://tubeshooter.co.uk/2013/06/22/preview-canon-xa20-xa25-hf-g30/

And one final function which could have been useful but has been rendered impotent by its implementation, is Last Scene Review. Just press one button and the last scene you filmed gets played back, no need to switch the camcorder into playback mode. Sounds great but a) it only plays back the last four seconds and b) it doesn’t play back the sound!!! Utterly useless.

 
This is one of my pet peeves of the G10, not being able to easily play back the last clip you shot. It's so infuriatingly bad that I had to learn to simply trust (or more likely recall) that what I just shot was good, as it was so hard to play back a clip. Ironically though I think I'm better at this gig because of this limitation.

[EEVblog]

Are you sure that they have addressed the issue on newer models?

No, it would be a gamble.

[EEVblog]

Oh my:
http://www.panasonic.com/au/consumer/imaging/camcorders/hc-x920m.html
The Panasonic HC-X920M streams to the web via WiFi live and also records it. Blogging heaven. 

[bwat]

This is one of my pet peeves of the G10, not being able to easily play back the last clip you shot. It's so infuriatingly bad that I had to learn to simply trust (or more likely recall) that what I just shot was good, as it was so hard to play back a clip. Ironically though I think I'm better at this gig because of this limitation.

Haven't done much 16mm film have you? You do up your game when the cost of failure is raised.

[richms]

I was all set to get a locally available cheap consumer Panasonic camera, but I found that they cripple the ones sold in NZ (and therefore I assume AU as well) into only recording at 25 and 50 FPS, no 30 or 60Hz option.

Their justification for this is based on some arcane analog TV format being 50Hz, but it makes video that judders massively when dropped into a 60Hz project.

Only solution was to spring for a "pro" model at 10x the price.

I again ended up getting a camera off amazon thru a reshipper because it was way cheaper than anything locally.

[mariush]

You could buy that Sony FDR-AX100  that does 4k @ 25-30fps, 1080p at 50-60mpbs, 720p@120fps,  huge 1" cmos sensor which makes it very good at low light,  supports lens and has a few built in filters,works with standard sony batteries you can easily buy, supports input mic, built in wifi,  canrecord avhcd high bitrate and a low bitrate mp4 at same time so you can use the mp4 for some quick upload while saving the high quality video for something else.

The only problem is the price, but at least you'd be future proof (sort of): http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1022653-REG/sony_fdrax100_b_hdr_ax100_full_hd_handycam.html



There's some newer Panasonic cameras that do 4k but at higher bitrate (100mbps I think)

ps. If you do decide on it, i'd recommend asking someone to buy it for you from US to get the 4k@30fps version.. the EU version only does 4k@25fps. 30fps is already a bit bad if you're doing lots of motion in 4k.

[EEVblog]

You could buy that Sony FDR-AX100  that does 4k @ 25-30fps

4K isn't going to happen.

huge 1" cmos sensor which makes it very good at low light,  supports lens

Interchangeable lenses are great until you are in my situation and have to change the lens 10 times during a shoot.
Not going to be good on the sensor.

[EEVblog]

I was all set to get a locally available cheap consumer Panasonic camera, but I found that they cripple the ones sold in NZ (and therefore I assume AU as well) into only recording at 25 and 50 FPS, no 30 or 60Hz option.

That's standard practice with every manufacturer on the market.
This is why I shoot at 25P, because it's all my camera can do.
This time I might go for the 30P overseas model of any camera I get. But that means my B-Roll camera will be 25P.
Given that even with the canon G30 option I have to ditch all my batteries, I guess the option of getting two new cameras and selling both my current ones isn't off the table.

[EEVblog]

I just re-read the manual. Step 1 for inserting a memory card is to ensure the camera is off.
I know you knew that. Perhaps Canon had a reason to say it.
Why do you say it is a bug. Because it works most of the time?

Because I suspect it might have happened once even doing it the proper way too.
In any case, I don't care if the manual says that, actually being able to accidentally do it is enough for it be classed as a serious bug.
I wouldn't mind at all if the camera locked up or did something else if you didn't follow the manual, that's fine. But when the camera appears to be operating correctly yet records nothing because of a mistake is inexcusable.

[mariush]

4K isn't going to happen.

You don't have to record in 4k, but you can take advantage of the fact it records in 1080p 50mbps, the 4k would be an added bonus you may want take advantage of in future,
Or you could record closeups in 4k if you're too lazy to connect your microscope and everything, and then just crop 1080p or resize to 1080p in the editor.

Interchangeable lenses are great until you are in my situation and have to change the lens 10 times during a shoot.
Not going to be good on the sensor.

No, can't remove the original lens, the sensor is well protected behind it. I meant to say you have a ring around the lens to which you can attach additional macro lens or filters (if the built in ones aren't good enough) and so on.

[EEVblog]

Oh my:
http://www.panasonic.com/au/consumer/imaging/camcorders/hc-x920m.html
The Panasonic HC-X920M streams to the web via WiFi live and also records it. Blogging heaven. 

Once again, over a year old. New model coming perhaps?

[EEVblog]

Cooling fan! 

[EEVblog]

You don't have to record in 4k, but you can take advantage of the fact it records in 1080p 50mbps

Yeah, at 3 times the file size I currently shoot at.

[Rasz]

that camera is already faulty, the other SD card slot has not been working for some time now. And Dave has been doing video blogging professionally now for years.

replace both sd card sockets, they arent magical, there are insertion limits.
Dead one is probably permanently open, while the flaky one has bad contact(high impedance, SD clock is 48MHz after all) because of vibration/heat/cosmic ray/material wear. I highly doubt its software fault, it is writing to the card after all, just not all the bits are correct.

But at this point I suspect Dave is too deep in the new toy phase to back down, plus spooked about the idea of wasting half a day with this particular camera.

[EEVblog]

Dead one is probably permanently open, while the flaky one has bad contact(high impedance, SD clock is 48MHz after all) because of vibration/heat/cosmic ray/material wear. I highly doubt its software fault

No, it's not a hardware fault, it's a firmware fault.

But at this point I suspect Dave is too deep in the new toy phase to back down, plus spooked about the idea of wasting half a day with this particular camera.

Replacing the relatively almost new SD card socket will not fix my problem, it will be a big waste of time. There is almost certainly nothing wrong with it.

[Eliminateur]

Cooling fan! 

wth indeed, i would steer clear from that contraption, nothing ever good comes from small cooling fans(noise, dirt, when they get old they lock and make more noise, powr consumption, etc).

BTW, why do you use a battery for the lab shots instead of an AC adapter?

my 2 cents:
Have you considered the sony HDR-CX900/B?:
it's not 4K so you're not paying for that gimmick
1080p60 and all the other formats, dual video recording
1" back-lit CMOS sensor
1cm to 100cm focus lens, F2.8 to F4.5 aperture 7 blade iris, adjustable ND filter and 24x zoom
true optical OIS (and we all know Sony OIS IS the industry top, well you use it on a fixed mount so ois might not be useful for you)
it has wifi .n
infrared for night shots
3.5" touch LCD with 921K pixels
accesory show, mic input

it's also super-new as it was unveiled in CES 2014

[BeJay]

For MY 2 bob,

I've always used Canon cameras for stills, my video has always been Panasonic. Back in the day I used a National A2 all the way through the whole DV thing and now to my latest  Panasonic HC-X920M which I love. Between this for video and my Canon D20 (underwater) and D7 I have all my capture options covered! For me Canon just can't get the video camcorder right, but that's just me.

[neuraxon77]

In addition to a new camera have you considered multiple cheap backup cameras that record continuously from multiple perspectives and just loop ala security/car cameras? Won't be the same quality, but might save your sanity.

[Eliminateur]

Won't be the same quality, but might save your sanity.

And who's going to "keep their sanity" importing(multiple sd, having to keep track of where each cam is, etc) and editing all that footage afterwards?
not useful for backup

[RyanAMT]

Long time browser - first time poster.

The Canon XA series cameras are great.  We have the XA10 at work for backup and small shoots that don't require taking out our Sony production cameras.  My gripe with the XA10 is the touch screen is terrible and clunky.  I've read that Canon has improved the touch screen on the XA20/25 but I have not tried it.  A complaint that I have seen in a few places with the XA20/25 is that the battery release button is blocked when using certain tripod plates.  With those aside we have gotten great looking video out of the XA10 and once it's set up to our liking it is very easy to use.  With that said I can only imagine that the new models are going to output an even better looking image than the XA10. 

The biggest plus to the the XA series are the dedicated XLR audio inputs and phantom power.  This will give you better selection of mics to use, manual control of the audio levels, and better sound as the use higher quality preamps.

^Just my 2 cents.

[Rutger]

How about taking a 10-30 sec test shot and then playing it back on the camera to make sure it is recording.

Also is it not possible to feed the video&audio signal into a computer as a second recording?

[pickle9000]

How about taking a 10-30 sec test shot and then playing it back on the camera to make sure it is recording.

Also is it not possible to feed the video&audio signal into a computer as a second recording?

Reliable gear for a job you do everyday. For a complex piece of equipment like a camera you need to know (as much as possible) that it's going to work. Same with test gear, sure if it's only being used once in a while maybe test before use.

Dave's primary bit of gear for the blog is his camera gear. He uses it more than his test gear. Unless this is a known problem with an easy fix a professional needs to shelve it or sell it and get on with a replacement. Even though it sounds harsh gear is changed all the time for many reasons (other than failure). It's not a big deal when your livelihood depends on it.

[free_electron]

dump the removable flash memory based cards. get a camera with fixed flash and/or harddisk.

[Eliminateur]

dump the removable flash memory based cards. get a camera with fixed flash and/or harddisk.

no camera has fixed flash, even less pro/prosumer equipment.
hdd are not used anymore in cameras either, i do remember some consumer sony handycam that had hdd back some year ago, in the prosumer camp you need to be able to swap out memory without having to move the entire camera with you

[RyanAMT]

There are some cameras with internal storage but they most always have removable storage options (XA10 for example) - just have to remember to set the camera to record to the right drive.  I do remember some consumer Sony Handycams that had HDDs and they had high failure rates.  One of the biggest issues with recording to internal memory besides running out of memory is with the post workflow as you either have to copy the footage over to the SD drive, which can takes more time, or you have to take your camera over to the computer and plug it in. 

[MJR]

Cannon is good, but they too fall prey to "why is that a problem?" syndrome. Classic example is their pretend it doesn't exist attitude to the DSLR image writing problem that existed for years and across several generations of cameras. Put simply, if you took a picture or a series of pictures and happened to shut the camera off while they were still writing to storage.... *POOF* They were gone. Other camera makers simply put the logic in to keep that circuit alive until the buffer was flushed, but Cannon let it go on for quite awhile. I am sure the DSLR write is fixed now, but I would not make any assumption about them fixing a product flaw in newer generations anymore.

Trust is like a cold glass of water in the desert, quickly gone and hard to get.

[IanJ]

Hi,

Thinking sideways a little.....it appears EYEFI sd cards compatible with certain camcorders.

The idea being the sd card will transmit over wifi back to his PC immediately after each shot (video).
Might be worth trying, the idea being after each shot Dave only needs glance sideways to a PC at the corner of his lab to see the video file being received/previewed.

I've tried it with still photos from a 7D and seems  to work ok.

http://support.eye.fi/cameras/

Ian.

[Circuitous]

The eyefi cards are great, and work with lots of cameras... but perhaps not all.
I have been using them with an older Nikon still camera, and two Canon video cameras (M40 & R50).
They have worked nicely, every time.  I have them upload the images/videos directly to my NAS, saves me lots of effort.
But, it might take a while to upload one of Dave's long shots.

[Lightages]

If the issue is lost work from failures, then you need to step up to a more professional camera IMHO. One that is built for more continuous use and has an SDI out so you can send the output to something like a Black Magic Hyperdeck. Actually I would use the Hyperdeck as the main recording device with a nice SSD you can swap to your computer for direct use and leave the cards in the camera unless you need to recover a failed recording on the Hyperdeck. I really think a jump up to a $4000USD camera plus the Hyperdeck would get rid of many headaches and make the workflow so much nicer, especially if the camera has true XLR inputs.

If you make your living doing video, then buying the right tool is just the smart thing to do.

Which camera in particular? Well, there are so many to choose from now. Find the one with the right features you want, lens range, light capability, storage media type, and with SDI out.

[EEVblog]

wth indeed, i would steer clear from that contraption, nothing ever good comes from small cooling fans(noise, dirt, when they get old they lock and make more noise, powr consumption, etc).

Yep, seems like madness.

BTW, why do you use a battery for the lab shots instead of an AC adapter?

Infinitely easier and less messy.
I have an extended battery pack lasts 4-5 hours, easily enough for whole days shoot.
Last thing you want is cable dangling around the place.

Have you considered the sony HDR-CX900/B?:
it's also super-new as it was unveiled in CES 2014

Juts had a quick look.
A 1" sensor is enormous.
I like that it's new. The others just seem a bit long in the tooth.
But I hate manuals that don't show you what the on-screen indicators are. i.e. does it have a true usable audio level dB bargraph?
They are still pushing memory stick? 
BTW, I do have an E-Mount macro lens for my Sony NEX-5T photo camera, so in theory the NEX-VG30 is possible, but the price is insane, and changes lens is 10 times in a shoot is not nice on the camera.

[EEVblog]

If the issue is lost work from failures, then you need to step up to a more professional camera IMHO. One that is built for more continuous use and has an SDI out so you can send the output to something like a Black Magic Hyperdeck.

No, that would kill my workflow, cables and external recording decides would suck for my purposes.

If you make your living doing video, then buying the right tool is just the smart thing to do.

I do have the right tool. A small, portable, battery powered cableless camcorder that does exactly the job I need it too, and does everything in-camera.
There is such a thing as over-production that can kill your efficiency in workflow.

[EEVblog]

Thinking sideways a little.....it appears EYEFI sd cards compatible with certain camcorders.

I've got one and my camera supports it, it's unreliable as hell.

[EEVblog]

dump the removable flash memory based cards. get a camera with fixed flash and/or harddisk.

My camera has 32GB built in flash, I rarely use it because it's not as convenient in several ways. SD card is just less messy and more flexible.

[EEVblog]

How about taking a 10-30 sec test shot and then playing it back on the camera to make sure it is recording.

I should have to.
If I can't trust my gear then it's not the right gear.

Also is it not possible to feed the video&audio signal into a computer as a second recording?

Possible but ridiculously inconvenient solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[EEVblog]

In addition to a new camera have you considered multiple cheap backup cameras that record continuously from multiple perspectives and just loop ala security/car cameras? Won't be the same quality, but might save your sanity.

Nope. Once again a complex solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[free_electron]

dump the removable flash memory based cards. get a camera with fixed flash and/or harddisk.

no camera has fixed flash, even less pro/prosumer equipment.
hdd are not used anymore in cameras either, i do remember some consumer sony handycam that had hdd back some year ago, in the prosumer camp you need to be able to swap out memory without having to move the entire camera with you

? really ? what planet are you from ?

Sony HDR-PJ420V : 32 gbyte flash built in
Sony HDR-PJ430V : 32 gbyte flash built in
Sony HDR-PJ380 : 16 Gbyte flash built in
Sony HDR-P J650 : 32 Gbyte built in
Sony HDR-P J540 : 32 Gbyte built in
Sony HDR-P J810 : 32 Gbyte built in
Sony HDR-PJ790V : 96 gbyte flash built in
Canon XA10 : 64 Gbyte built in
Canon Vixia HF R52 : 32 gbyte
Canon Vixia HF G20 : 32 Gbyte built in
JVC GZ-R70  32Gbyte built in

how many more do i need to list ?

I have two sony harddisk based machines that i use for underwater. (one 320Gbyte and one 250Gbyte) work perfectly fine :

Advice to dave : Go on ebay and buy a few used HDD based camcorders. shoot from different angles. simply plug in usb and copy files over.

SD cards are unreliable. I have a camcorder with Sd card. bump it while filing and you have corrupted files. the problem is the edge wiping contact of SD cards.
Compactflash is much more robust. that uses a real pinheader.

-edit- i just went to ebay. there's plenty 30Gb--60Gbyte HD camcorders used for between 60 to 200$.. you can get two or three for the price of one.

[EEVblog]

The Canon XA series cameras are great.  We have the XA10 at work for backup and small shoots that don't require taking out our Sony production cameras.

The XA10 is identical to my HF G10, just without the XLR inputs.

The biggest plus to the the XA series are the dedicated XLR audio inputs and phantom power.  This will give you better selection of mics to use, manual control of the audio levels, and better sound as the use higher quality preamps.

I don't really need a better mic system. The quality from the internal mics is great, and for external the Rode VideoMic Pro and Senheiser G3 wireless mics with 3.5mm phono jacks are more than adequate performance for my needs.

[mariush]

Have you considered the sony HDR-CX900/B?:
it's also super-new as it was unveiled in CES 2014

Juts had a quick look.
A 1" sensor is enormous.
I like that it's new. The others just seem a bit long in the tooth.
But I hate manuals that don't show you what the on-screen indicators are. i.e. does it have a true usable audio level dB bargraph?
They are still pushing memory stick? 
BTW, I do have an E-Mount macro lens for my Sony NEX-5T photo camera, so in theory the NEX-VG30 is possible, but the price is insane, and changes lens is 10 times in a shoot is not nice on the camera.

It's the same internals, same sensor, same everything as that 4k camera Sony FDR-AX100.

Same specs, same everything, except they added night vision mode. But they dropped 4k recording and they disabled XAVC-S and it uses only the plain standard AVCHD (xavc-s would retain more quality from that sensor at same bitrate) and some audio modes are gone.
And it comes with the ligher NP-FV50 battery which typically lasts for 1h - 1 1/2h of recording time.

$500 cheaper though.

[EEVblog]

Advice to dave : Go on ebay and buy a few used HDD based camcorders. shoot from different angles. simply plug in usb and copy files over.

Thanks, but that's not a good idea because
1) I'd be buying ancient camcorders, almost certainly with limited functionality for my needs. I'd be taking step backwards.
2) The hard drives might add noticeable noise to the audio
3) Taking out an SD card and popping it in my machine is easier and more flexible than bringing the camera to the PC and sticking in a USB cable.

SD cards are unreliable. I have a camcorder with Sd card. bump it while filing and you have corrupted files. the problem is the edge wiping contact of SD cards.

I've done about 700 videos with SD cards without a single such issue, barring this bug which is not related to the contact.
I've also done a ton of videos with waterproof HD camcorders in harsh physical conditions without a single issue either.
How about those millions of GoPros?

I know you love hard drives because you design them for a living, but really, for basic camcorder internal use they should relegated to the history bin.
They still have a niche for external recording boxes for massive amounts of data of course. But other than that SD cards killed them long ago and rightly so.

[Carrington]

Gee! One inch. it can collect more light.
And its price is not extortionate. Great!

[EEVblog]

It's the same internals, same sensor, same everything as that 4k camera Sony FDR-AX100.

They seem to share the same manual too.

And it comes with the ligher NP-FV50 battery which typically lasts for 1h - 1 1/2h of recording time.

I need huge battery life.
That's one of the benefits of my Canon, my battery lasts a good 4-5 hours.
The Panasonic 920 is pretty horrible in this regard, barely 1 hour recording, or double with the extended battery pack. No wonder they need a fan, it draws 9W while recording.

[EEVblog]

Scratch the Sony HDR-CX900
http://youtu.be/vG8bI7BJ0ko?t=1m59s

That audio level meter is a consumer level joke. I need a proper professional dB level meter like my Canon has.
The canon can also mix internal and external audio which has proven invaluable.
Slow autofocus too it seems.
Add in the proprietary shoe mount and multi-USB connector and it's not very appealing.

[mariush]

My CX410VE came with the NP-FV50 as well, I can record about 90-110 minutes on battery, with lcd screen on. A bit less if I'm moving around a lot (the balanced optical stabilisation with servos and all that uses a bit of "juice".  But that big ass sensor on the new cameras probably uses more power.

There's a NP-FV70 battery which lasts about 2 and a half - 3 hours and a NP-FV100 that can do up to 5-6 hours.   The NP-FV100 battery is about $90-100 on Sony's website.

[Legit-Design]

The G30/XA25 looks really good.
Some new feature I don't have that would be very useful
- MP4 recording (also simultaneous) which allows faster direct upload for non-edited stuff

One thing to note about MP4 vs AVCHD, while they are using same codec they are not most likely using the same settings
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/general-hd-720-1080-acquisition/515640-mp4-avchd.html

This is certainly NOT true, logically or in fact. The AVC h.264 compression comes in lots of variants - these include whether lossless CABAC encoding is used, the number of reference frames, the bitrate etc. Even within the different 'profiles' (baseline, main, etc.) there are variants. For example, on one Panasonic camera, the AVCHD at 60p uses 28Mbps, and 'high profile' and CABAC. The 30p MP4 uses 'main profile' and no CABAC at 20Mbps. It is not obvious which is better, but they sure are different.

When comparing same codec and using more advanced (more computing intensive) features like CABAC, it can squeeze better picture quality from smaller bitrates. CABAC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-adaptive_binary_arithmetic_coding
I'm not saying this is the case, but it most likely will be. Would have to do a comparison what canon cameras use. Like everyone knows MP4 is just the wrapper.

[free_electron]

Advice to dave : Go on ebay and buy a few used HDD based camcorders. shoot from different angles. simply plug in usb and copy files over.

Thanks, but that's not a good idea because
1) I'd be buying ancient camcorders, almost certainly with limited functionality for my needs. I'd be taking step backwards.

not necessarily. A hdr xv550 is barely two years old. Uses h264 compression and delivers excellent video.

2) The hard drives might add noticeable noise to the audio

no they don't. These drives uses a special data layout (they behave like fat to the outside world) .

3) Taking out an SD card and popping it in my machine is easier and more flexible than bringing the camera to the PC and sticking in a USB cable.

True. Professional shooters use a drive recorder plugged in to the camera. When done , unplug the box and take it to the computer.


[/quote]SD cards are unreliable. I have a camcorder with Sd card. bump it while filing and you have corrupted files. the problem is the edge wiping contact of SD cards.
[/quote]

I've done about 700 videos with SD cards without a single such issue, barring this bug which is not related to the contact.
I've also done a ton of videos with waterproof HD camcorders in harsh physical conditions without a single issue either.
How about those millions of GoPros?[/quote] i have a sony actioncam (the latest and greatest that records in micro sd). Nothing but trouble. When mounted on the car and hitting a pothole the image file is sometimes corrupted. If the card is not exactly the right speed you get buffer overruns .
Nothing beats a factory installed memory as it will always be the correct speed and format. I had to try at least 3 different cards to get one that could mainatain 1920x1080 at fastest rate for longer than 5 minutes. Most of them would overrun. And then there is fragmentation of the flash.

I don't like those things. Nothing but trouble. Far less hassle to have a turnkey system with the correct memory factory installed.

[EEVblog]

A hdr xv550 is barely two years old. Uses h264 compression and delivers excellent video.

What's the advantage of that? It's got built in flash, so does my current one.
I thought you were talking about hard drives?

i have a sony actioncam (the latest and greatest that records in micro sd). Nothing but trouble.

Then I'd wager that's a problem with the Sony actioncam.
Also, Micro SD != SD
I can't see how you can say SD cards are inherently unreliable based on this one example?

Nothing beats a factory installed memory as it will always be the correct speed and format. I had to try at least 3 different cards to get one that could maintain 1920x1080 at fastest rate for longer than 5 minutes. Most of them would overrun. And then there is fragmentation of the flash.

I've had zero issues with any SD cards I've ever used. The odd one has failed, but that's it.

I don't like those things. Nothing but trouble. Far less hassle to have a turnkey system with the correct memory factory installed.

But it's not as flexible. I know. My current HF G10 has 32GB of inbuilt flash memory but I hardly ever use it, why? Because it's not as convenient or as flexible as removable SD cards.

[Legit-Design]

i have a sony actioncam (the latest and greatest that records in micro sd). Nothing but trouble.

Then I'd wager that's a problem with the Sony actioncam.
Also, Micro SD != SD
I can't see how you can say SD cards are inherently unreliable based on this one example?

Highly recommend watching this. Same guys that designed and brought that open source arm fpga laptop. (https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop)

All "managed FLASH" devices, such as SD, microSD, and SSD, contain an embedded controller to assist with the complex tasks necessary to create an abstraction of reliable, contiguous storage out of FLASH silicon that is fundamentally unreliable and unpredictably fragmented.

Funny how he says it "You're not really storing your data. You are storing a probabilistic approximation of your data."

[EEVblog]

All "managed FLASH" devices, such as SD, microSD, and SSD, contain an embedded controller to assist with the complex tasks necessary to create an abstraction of reliable, contiguous storage out of FLASH silicon that is fundamentally unreliable and unpredictably fragmented.

Technically true, but way over-exaggerated risk.
Funny how few of the hundreds of millions who rely on SD cards daily relatively few issues.
BTW, the camera built in ones probably have the same system, as they appear as drives when plugged in, so likely easier to implement as an actual SD card controller with USB reader effectively?

[bwat]

All "managed FLASH" devices, such as SD, microSD, and SSD, contain an embedded controller to assist with the complex tasks necessary to create an abstraction of reliable, contiguous storage out of FLASH silicon that is fundamentally unreliable and unpredictably fragmented.

Don't, or didn't (I'm not up to date with these things), harddisks work on the same principle. You send stuff to the controller, it writes it when it sees fit and handles bad sectors in the process. IIRC some of the bad sector handling is quite involved using remapping algorithms and the like.

[EEVblog]

Don't, or didn't (I'm not up to date with these things), harddisks work on the same principle. You send stuff to the controller, it writes it when it sees fit and handles bad sectors in the process. IIRC some of the bad sector handling is quite involved using remapping algorithms and the like.

Cue Free_Electron!
He designs hard drives controllers and has posted on how involved this is before.

[Legit-Design]

Don't, or didn't (I'm not up to date with these things), harddisks work on the same principle. You send stuff to the controller, it writes it when it sees fit and handles bad sectors in the process. IIRC some of the bad sector handling is quite involved using remapping algorithms and the like.

I haven't heard about harddisks having 80% of them marked faulty and only using the remaining 20%. If the manufacturer got something like that I think they would just throw the whole thing in the bin. Hard disks have just different kind of failures all together than sd cards.

[bwat]

Don't, or didn't (I'm not up to date with these things), harddisks work on the same principle. You send stuff to the controller, it writes it when it sees fit and handles bad sectors in the process. IIRC some of the bad sector handling is quite involved using remapping algorithms and the like.

I haven't heard about harddisks having 80% of them marked faulty and only using the remaining 20%. If the manufacturer got something like that I think they would just throw the whole thing in the bin. Hard disks have just different kind of failures all together than sd cards.

I'm sorry but I think you may have to work on your reading comprehension. My comments were in reaction to the quotation which you gave:

All "managed FLASH" devices, such as SD, microSD, and SSD, contain an embedded controller to assist with the complex tasks necessary to create an abstraction of reliable, contiguous storage out of FLASH silicon that is fundamentally unreliable and unpredictably fragmented.

The gist of my comment was that I believed harddisks worked on the same principle, i.e. there is a microcontroller which assists with "complex tasks necessary to create an abstraction of reliable" storage from a "unreliable and unpredictably fragmented" medium. Your reply doesn't address my tentative claim.

[miguelvp]

SSDs (Solid State Drives) instead of HDDs (Hard Disk Drives)?

SD cards are awful!

[German_EE]

Anything but Sony, poor technical support, poor customer service and they might not be around in a few years.

[Lightages]

Dave:

I think you need to look a bit more into my suggestion. My suggested workflow is no more complicated than, not that much anyway, than what you do now. The difference is you pull out an SSD instead of an SD and put it into your computer drive dock. The Black Magic Hyperdrive starts and stops automatically with the camera and gives yu a much faster workflow right from the beginning. It can also be mounted directly on the tripod or another plate with the camera.

OK, I do understand that right now you fire up a small handheld camcorder and that is it. The added size and weight of what I am talking about sounds like it is not to your liking. I also understand that. I am just trying to propose a higher end setup that gives you the best of both worlds. Connect the Hyperdrive when you can't  be let down, or don't connect it when you want a light hand held setup.

Yes the price of all of the higher end equipment is a bit of a slap in the face, but that's the cost of stepping up to the next level. My kit probably cost me in the neighborhood of $20,000USD and more but you don't need to spend that. A really major step up in work flow speed and reliability will cost you around $5K, I think. If you just want a camera without bugs then good luck, especially with Canon. They really seem to give no care to what they fix or don't fix.

[IanJ]

Ok, still looking sideways here's some more food for thought:-

Mobidaptor:- SD card interface to USB to anything! So I guess you could connect a USB interfaced SSD directly to the SD card interface of your cam. 32gb max.

http://packetgods.com/mobidapter/
http://www.pcx.com.au/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductId=2280

The demo pic shows it plugged into a phone SD interface and a USB pen drive into it. NB. Appears to be a 2009 product.



Ian.

[richms]

Hi,

Thinking sideways a little.....it appears EYEFI sd cards compatible with certain camcorders.

Hopeless in my testing with them. Long time before files start to come thru, seems to only be able to transmit the file once it has stopped recording and the speed it gets over 2.4GHz wifi in an urban environment is hopeless like all 2.4GHz wifi is.

Once they push one out that does wide channel 5GHz 802.11ac and can transmit as it is recording the file, might be onto something.

[Rasz]

The gist of my comment was that I believed harddisks worked on the same principle, i.e. there is a microcontroller which assists with "complex tasks necessary to create an abstraction of reliable" storage from a "unreliable and unpredictably fragmented" medium. Your reply doesn't address my tentative claim.

Main difference is in persistence of mapping between physical spot in space/time continuum where your data is stored, and a virtual sector number.

Hard drives/ raw flash/ CompactFlash / SmartMedia / I think also xD - all of those map more or less 1:1, and let You, the user, choose physical spot on the medium. Hard drives over time gained ability to remap bad sectors, but they do it only when encountering unrecoverable error, and you can still get physical address from the Service Area (g-list, p-list).

Secure Digital / Memory Stick  / SSD - those ones keep virtual mapping that is dynamic and constantly changing, they also run housekeeping jobs in the background sorting/shuffling data around, erasing continuous regions to optimize write speed etc. Youm never know where your data is stored exactly (unless you know particular flash controller used and its mapping algorithm).


Back to Daves camera. SD card spec  does have CRC32, but vendors notoriously ignore it or simply dont implement in the first place. This can cause a situation where camera thinks its writing data when one of the 4 data pins is randomly glitched. Then you have bugs in fat implementations in embedded firmware, all camera vendors  want you to format card inside the camera, because firmware might not be able to deal with fragmentation, unusual filesystem layout etc.
Edit: they are also rather adamant about deleting files ONLY inside camera. Card that was inserted into a pc, files deleted there, and inserted back into camera is _NOT GUARANTEED TO WORK RELIABLY_ because of said filesystem handling bugs. This might be what Dave is experiencing.

Yes, this is stupid in 2014, 27 years into Fat lifecycle. But so is over 10000 global variables in Toyota car computer controlling fly-by-wire throttle.

[EEVblog]

I think you need to look a bit more into my suggestion. My suggested workflow is no more complicated than, not that much anyway, than what you do now. The difference is you pull out an SSD instead of an SD and put it into your computer drive dock. The Black Magic Hyperdrive starts and stops automatically with the camera and gives yu a much faster workflow right from the beginning. It can also be mounted directly on the tripod or another plate with the camera.

OK, I do understand that right now you fire up a small handheld camcorder and that is it. The added size and weight of what I am talking about sounds like it is not to your liking. I also understand that. I am just trying to propose a higher end setup that gives you the best of both worlds.

What does it gain me? Practically nothing.
The last thing I want is cables coming out my camcorder into some sort of external recording box that also needs it's own charging. Just one more device to go flat, and one stuff to snag on when moving the camera around. A self contained camcorder with SD cark works the best for what I do. No mess, no fuss.
If I'm going to have cables coming out the camera then I'm going to have something useful, like a bigger external monitor on the shoe mount. I'm thinking about getting one of these for my new bench shots, as it's hard to see the camcorder screen from two meters away.

Connect the Hyperdrive when you can't  be let down

If I want something that won't let me down them I'll use a dual SD card camcorder that write to both at once.
Apart from this big in this particular camera I have never lost any material.
The proper solution here is to simply get a camera that doesn't have this potential bug.

Yes the price of all of the higher end equipment is a bit of a slap in the face, but that's the cost of stepping up to the next level. My kit probably cost me in the neighborhood of $20,000USD and more but you don't need to spend that. A really major step up in work flow speed and reliability will cost you around $5K, I think.

How will this improve my workflow? I can't see how it can possibly do that. If anything it's just more stuff to get in my way.

[EEVblog]

Edit: they are also rather adamant about deleting files ONLY inside camera. Card that was inserted into a pc, files deleted there, and inserted back into camera is _NOT GUARANTEED TO WORK RELIABLY_ because of said filesystem handling bugs. This might be what Dave is experiencing.

Yeah, might have something to do with it. But in this case the card was formatted in the camera, I shot some stuff, took the card to the PC to check I had some things right (just read the card), put it back in and then it didn't record all the material after that point.
I usually format the card in camera before a shoot, but sometimes I forget and just record in addition to all the previous stuff on there.

[IanJ]

Edit: they are also rather adamant about deleting files ONLY inside camera. Card that was inserted into a pc, files deleted there, and inserted back into camera is _NOT GUARANTEED TO WORK RELIABLY_ because of said filesystem handling bugs. This might be what Dave is experiencing.

Yeah, might have something to do with it. But in this case the card was formatted in the camera, I shot some stuff, took the card to the PC to check I had some things right (just read the card), put it back in and then it didn't record all the material after that point.
I usually format the card in camera before a shoot, but sometimes I forget and just record in addition to all the previous stuff on there.

Yep, just smells sooooo much like buggy firmware.

Ian.

[Rasz]

I always thought it was because of the directory structure it set up. But It might be to avoid Windows setting file attributes the camera isn't able to deal with.

its deeper than that, its about the structure of a filesystem (fragmentation, order of fields, size limits)

There is some info in this video about problems with firmwares (subject is forensics and exfat, but Scott talks about it in a broad way)



edit: I actually remembered it wrong, deleting files in the camera can corrupts filesystem
good stuff is at 43 minutes, he even mentions Canon by name
http://youtu.be/J-R0T5B0lac?t=43m28s

[MJR]

I imagine that Canon do not redevelop the filesystem firmware from one model to the next. So I really would expect a popular brand like Canon if it has an obscure firmware bug to have had some user experiences in posts all over the internet. I can't find any other user reporting a similar problem.

From my experience with their still cams, it appears that they are loathe to redevelop their file system code/circuits even if there *ARE* lots of user complaints about it. I think the conversation may go like this:

Program Manager: We are getting lots of complaints about files getting lost because the buffer doesn't flush before powering off.

Lead Engineer: We took care of that in Rev 2.

Program Manager: There is a Rev 2 of the firmware???!!

Lead Engineer: No, Rev 2 of the User Manual.

[BeJay]

I shot some stuff, took the card to the PC to check I had some things right (just read the card), put it back in and then it didn't record all the material after that point.

Did you "safely remove your hardware" ? So many times Windblows is trying to delay write to the card (even on read if you have indexing on) or Antivirus is still sniffing it when you rip it out expecting it's only reading it....

[RyanAMT]

To boil this down you are looking for:

-High end consumer - lower end "prosumer"
-Records to SD cards
-No need for professional and high bit rate codecs
-No need for XLR inputs (some models come with them anyway)
-Compact in size

In case I missed it - Do you have a brand preference and or brands to avoid and a rough budget range?

[EEVblog]

To boil this down you are looking for:
-High end consumer - lower end "prosumer"
-Records to SD cards
-No need for professional and high bit rate codecs
-No need for XLR inputs (some models come with them anyway)
-Compact in size
In case I missed it - Do you have a brand preference and or brands to avoid and a rough budget range?

No, not really.
But it ain't that easy. Small things make a huge difference that can make or break a decision.
For instance the shitty toy consumer audio level bargraph on the Sony units instantly rules them out. I live by my proper dB level meter in the Canon.
Ability to mix internal and external audio my Canon is a big deal.
WiFi remote control and clip playback would be very nice.
The LCD screen must be big and high res. My canon is 920K pixels and I won't want anything less.
Battery life is important. The Panasonics for example suck at this, double the consumption of other brands.
I would like (and currently do not have) an easy way to play back video clips after I have shot them, without having to go into playback mode and back again. The Canon I have (and the new ones) suck at this, they can only play the last 4 seconds, without audio!
Dual SD cards and backup recording modes would be nice.
Assignable buttons for things like the auto exposure mode, and a control wheel to set value, if I have to go into a menu to do this then my productivity drops massively. Can't imagine living without that.
Must work with a suitable macro lens attachment. This might be impossible to know unless you actually test it.
Must be at least 30mm wide angle, preferably better.

And probably other things I can't think of at 1am in the morning...

[EEVblog]

From the Canon XA 20 manual:

Inserting or removing the memory card with the camcorder on may result in permanent data loss

 

[free_electron]

A hdr xv550 is barely two years old. Uses h264 compression and delivers excellent video.

What's the advantage of that? It's got built in flash, so does my current one.
I thought you were talking about hard drives?

It is a harddisk based camera. Xr550v. 240 gigabyte diskdrive.
There is a little brother with 120 and one with 80 as well.

You don't hear the drives , neither spin nor head movement.

.
Also, Micro SD != SD
I can't see how you can say SD cards are inherently unreliable based on this one example?

Three harddisk camera's, on boats, thrown i. The water , or i'm jumping off the boat with them. Bumping around in rinse buckets while the boat plows through waves. Zero problems in the 3 years i've had em.

One state of the art 'removable media' device (costs as much as my bought-used 520). One pothole , car has an air-ride. Glitches and falls out during recording. Then there is the memory type problem. They number the cards these days. Number 4 is such and such speed, number 10 is such and such speed. Camera maker requires a specific number to guarantee throughput. Well i had to try 3 cards before one would work . Card makers lie. Oh it fits 10 in reading only, in writing it's more like a 6... Well the camera is writing ...

I prefer factory installed memory. It will be right.

But it's not as flexible. I know. My current HF G10 has 32GB of inbuilt flash memory but I hardly ever use it, why? Because it's not as convenient or as flexible as removable SD cards.

I would try using the built in flash. Instead of taking out card, inserting i. Card reader, copying , taking out card of reader putting it back in camera. You plug in cable, copy, unplug.
I know if you want to take the card home it is more conve ient.

Anyway. Just my thoughts and experiences. Ymmv ...

[RyanAMT]

I'm taking a look at a number of cameras from various manufacturers and one question that I don't think has been addressed yet is weight.  Is there a max weight?  For instance there are a few that with a battery weigh in around ~1.7kg.

[EEVblog]

I'm taking a look at a number of cameras from various manufacturers and one question that I don't think has been addressed yet is weight.

I don't care about weight, it's already hard enough to find any camera that does most of the stuff I want.

[EEVblog]

Well, looking for a new camera is as disappointing as it's always been. Every camera has some form of showstopper that prevent me from jumping on it.
It seems that the Canon HF G30 / XA20 is the best bet at present. But to jump on a 16month old camera that still has some really annoying limitations, albeit no worse than what I have, is not appealing.
At present I'm using the HF G10 with its internal memory. I get by... 

[IanJ]

G10 / G30 comparison vid.



Interestingly the batteries are not interchangeable [7:09].

Ian.

[RyanAMT]

One reason to consider sticking with Canon is if you plan to use the new camera and at the same time capturing additional B-Roll with the older Canon as their images will be similar in look, tone, and coloring.  The only other brand that comes close to the "Canon Look" is JVC - but their current offerings aren't impressive.

If you are fine with another brand then I suggest the Panasonic AG-AC90AEN (50Hz version).  It seems to have most of what you are looking for - simultaneous recording to both SD slots, a high res LCD  at 1,152 k dot,  audio input mixing, a decently wide lens at 2.84mm which on this camera is equal to a 35mm format equivalent of 29.8mm and the ability to use macro adapters.  You may be able to use your current macro lenses by using step-up/down rings but that will require some experimentation.  The only drawback is the power consumption is quite high at 12.9W, however they include a 5,400mAh battery that is stated to give up to 6 hours of recording time.  Realistically with lots of zooming and using the best recording quality you are looking at around 5 hours.  From experience with Panasonic's professional cameras their battery life is actually decent.  I know it's not a big deal for you but it also has XLR inputs and a removable shotgun mic holder.  Personally, I really like the look of Panasonic's images.

As far as life-cycle goes for camera models it varies between a year and two years.  Most professional cameras will run for 2 years before they announce the next version.  The camera I mentioned above was just released so I wouldn't expect a new model for 2 years.  As for the Canon's that are 16 months old you would have to wait for the industry trade shows that take place in February through April before any new cameras will be announced and then several months beyond that before they start shipping.  So realistically you could be waiting another year.

It is frustrating researching cameras and pro AV gear.  We go through it every May when we are told within a few days that we need to spend the remaining budget.

[cloudscapes]

Shot in the dark - did you get the SD card on ebay?

I've had really bad luck with ebay cards. And so has a local smallish computer store a couple months ago. They bought cheap SD cards and resold them locally, not knowing they were fakes. The problems I had were the card seeming to function, files being copied. But closer inspection revealed it only created folders and a few files on the card. It was a 2GB card tricked into thinking it was 32GB.

[nixfu]

- 3.5" screen instead of 3" screen, with increased resolution (super important for a technical blogger looking at boards etc through the lens)

 Dave, have you thought about adding a larger external monitor screen?

You could watch yourself from a distance and see much more detail when doing those close-ups. 

Examples:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/On-Camera-Monitors/ci/1984/N/4028759510

[Eliminateur]

Scratch the Sony HDR-CX900
http://youtu.be/vG8bI7BJ0ko?t=1m59s

That audio level meter is a consumer level joke. I need a proper professional dB level meter like my Canon has.
The canon can also mix internal and external audio which has proven invaluable.
Slow autofocus too it seems.
Add in the proprietary shoe mount and multi-USB connector and it's not very appealing.

urgh, i had no idea about hte sound level meter
propietary stuff.. yeah, it's sony, you either get used to  it or go to another brand.

quite the issue with not finding the right combination of features

[EEVblog]

Dave, have you thought about adding a larger external monitor screen?

Yes, I'm going to get one of those for the new bench camera position and teardown tuesday (camera about 4m away).

[EEVblog]

So, here is a big question, should I move to 30fps/60fps (NTSC) shooting, or stay with the aussie PAL 25fps/50fps shooting?
All my material up until this point has all been shot in 25fps.

The youtube standard seems to be 30fps, and I think youtube actually re-encodes to 30fps if you upload 25fps?
And of course an extra 5/10fps is always better, right?
Any potential issues with 50Hz lighting?
Opinions please...

[Legit-Design]

Any potential issues with 50Hz lighting?

Yes, with 30fps or 60fps you might/will get banding on some situations. So you will need to keep an eye on the shutter speed.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/280/7346

I'd guess your shutterspeed doesn't match the frequency of the lights you're using. When shooting in a country that uses 60Hz always use shutterspeed of multiples of 60. So when using 24p, 30p or 60i use 60, when shooting 60p use 120.
When shooting in a country that uses 50Hz, use multiples of 50. For 24p, 25p or 50i use 50 and for 50p use 100.

just some example I found quick, more examples of this can be found via magical google I used words "50hz shutter speed banding"

EDIT: better explanation http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/flicker-free-video-tutorial

So, here is a big question, should I move to 30fps/60fps (NTSC) shooting, or stay with the aussie PAL 25fps/50fps shooting?

I think you should do what you know works the best.

[DoDaMaffs]

Greetings All,
I'm surprise that the big guns at Cannon Austraila have yet to
get on board with some support.

Also has anyone mentioned a multiplexed  DVR CCTV system
incorporating " floating" camera's ie; batteries and av senders
on the tripods. in addition to fixed location PTZ's or zoom
camera's.

I can send you some gear if you want (FREE)

Regards Pete

PS; your not in a race car 25 fps is fine.

[EEVblog]

I'm surprise that the big guns at Cannon Austraila have yet to
get on board with some support.

I'm a nobody 

[EEVblog]

Also has anyone mentioned a multiplexed  DVR CCTV system
incorporating " floating" camera's ie; batteries and av senders
on the tripods. in addition to fixed location PTZ's or zoom
camera's.

No need for that complexity, it doesn't really add any value for my work.

[DoDaMaffs]

I've been a follower for a long while and I think your
under estimating your super powers.

With your approval if all members sent a
" I want to see dave though a canon" email,

Then it shall be granted I'm sure.

Pete

[DoDaMaffs]

PS: were do buy those " traps for young players"
The footy club has nominated me to round up
some more participants in the junior league.

Pete

[DoDaMaffs]

On second thought that " I want to see dave through a canon "
comment could get out of hand and feel free to delete it if you so wish.

Additionaly it could end up a trap for experienced players.

I'm in CCTV & Electronic Security and CCTV could work if done well.

Pete

[EEVblog]

I think you should do what you know works the best.

Yep I think so. Just want to make sure I'm not missing something by not having 30fps. I don't think I am.

[DoDaMaffs]

From my bag 25 fps @ 50hz PAL 30 fps @ 60hz NTSC

When mains powered devices are used.

You may get flouro flicker at higher fps.

Pete

[Rigby]

Modern florescent lighting uses electronic ballast, rather than magnetic, so the 50/60hz flicker is no more on new fixtures.  It's more like 30,000Hz anymore, old setups notwithstanding, of course.

I'm glad I got new fixtures, though.  LOTS brighter, AND less electricity usage... win/win.

[EEVblog]

Modern florescent lighting uses electronic ballast, rather than magnetic, so the 50/60hz flicker is no more on new fixtures.

Yes, not a problem for my lab, just thinking of other locations.

[bktemp]

Modern florescent lighting uses electronic ballast, rather than magnetic, so the 50/60hz flicker is no more on new fixtures.  It's more like 30,000Hz anymore, old setups notwithstanding, of course.

I'm glad I got new fixtures, though.  LOTS brighter, AND less electricity usage... win/win.

And a strong 30kHz signal interfering with low level measurements. Even the LED panels Dave is using show up on measurements regularly.
I have banned all florescent electronic ballasts arround my working bench. Constant current driven LEDs are much less nosy (both electrical and optical).

[DoDaMaffs]

The " flouro flicker " term I used is a phenomenon not only
assosiated with flourescent illumination, but also may be
experienced with other lighting fixtures.

I'm doing the maths.
One on the roof, one on the balcony (seinfeld),
and a high res  ir over the dumpster.

Pete

An thank you to Wilfred, got my first laugh,
gunna stuff it and mount it.

[pickle9000]

So if you are considering a monitor, how about a monitor recorder?

Like this:



In case you have not watched any "Film Riot" it's entertaining / funny and educational when it comes to film. The quality of the show is amazing (professional) when you consider it's done in the guys home most of the time. Highly recommended.

[Rigby]

Modern florescent lighting uses electronic ballast, rather than magnetic, so the 50/60hz flicker is no more on new fixtures.  It's more like 30,000Hz anymore, old setups notwithstanding, of course.

I'm glad I got new fixtures, though.  LOTS brighter, AND less electricity usage... win/win.

And a strong 30kHz signal interfering with low level measurements. Even the LED panels Dave is using show up on measurements regularly.
I have banned all florescent electronic ballasts arround my working bench. Constant current driven LEDs are much less nosy (both electrical and optical).

Wouldn't it be more effective to use shielding?  EMI can come from places outside your control.

[RyanAMT]

So, here is a big question, should I move to 30fps/60fps (NTSC) shooting, or stay with the aussie PAL 25fps/50fps shooting?
All my material up until this point has all been shot in 25fps.

The youtube standard seems to be 30fps, and I think youtube actually re-encodes to 30fps if you upload 25fps?
And of course an extra 5/10fps is always better, right?
Any potential issues with 50Hz lighting?
Opinions please...

For the content you make and what you do there isn't any real advantage to going to a 30fps/60fps system.  If you were doing more motion intensive videos then you could switch over for slightly better motion handling with the 5/10 gain in fps.

As for the YouTube encoder converting 50/25 PAL material to 30fps - There was a known error that caused 50p/i material to be wrongfully converted to 30fps since YouTube doesn't handle higher fps natively.  Not sure if that was ever fixed or if YouTube has since allowed 50/60p footage but I doubt it since 50/60 fps footage is overkill for standard web video.  So far YouTube has preserved all of my footage at the original frame rate - I shoot mostly at 24p.

Any opinion on the camera I mentioned last week?

[bktemp]

Wouldn't it be more effective to use shielding?  EMI can come from places outside your control.

Shielding would help, but is not always possible, especially for Dave who has to be able to film everything.
Having a fluorescent tube with an electronic ballast near a scope (~ 50cm) can show a signal in the range of 1V on the screen. Compared to other EMI sources, a nearby electronic ballast produces a really strong signal. The most practical solution is to simply avoid it and go for some (non pwm driven) led lighting.

[Eliminateur]

if YouTube has since allowed 50/60p footage but I doubt it since 50/60 fps footage is overkill for standard web video. 

youtube has started rolling 48fps and 60fps for selected channels already (along with 4K resolution), check out the announcement(along with some other very interesting changes for creators): http://youtubecreator.blogspot.com.es/2014/06/look-ahead-creator-features-coming-to.html
the interesting stuff i see for Dave is:
1) direct fan funding
2) fansourced subtitles
3) creator credits
4) infocards

60fps sample playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbsGxdAPhjv9UrLo19pS8teoRKj7funAy

[EEVblog]

Thanks for the help, in the end I've ordered a new Canon HF G30, I figured better the devil you know.
It has very useful upgrades to my current cam, and is basically zero risk.

[Eliminateur]

and is basically zero risk.

...apart from the thing deciding not to record anything(again)

[EEVblog]

Any opinion on the camera I mentioned last week?

The AG-AC90A looks pretty neat, but ultimately the Canon is as good or better for much less cost, albeit slightly less versatile.
And I didn't see a real dB audio meter on it either. But I liked it's ability to delete the last clip. Seems like it has the same last scene preview limitation as the Canon.
The Canon is more compact, has a wider angle, more zoom, WiFi control, cheaper, and is familiar. I can almost buy two Canons for the price of the Panasonic.

[EEVblog]

...apart from the thing deciding not to record anything(again)

Well, yeah, there's that! 
In the end I figured that regardless of which camera, I should be formatting the card in-camera before each shoot (as I currently try to do to), and should be using the backup dual SD card recording option.
So in the end I wasn't really trying to fix the big as such, I simply got duped by the extra functionality of a new model 
But considering that I'll be running a dual camera setup more often with the extra bench, a new cam was a good investment either way.

[EEVblog]

Do you think it will have the same firmware issue that caught you out with your current camera? Are you going to have to get used to ensuring the camera is powered off when inserting a card?I'll bet (I haven't read it) the manual will still say to do so.

Yes it does, just like many other cameras do.

You said earlier in this thread that you were pressing on using the internal memory of your current camera, what is so bad about that? 32GB isn't that enough?

It's got nothing to do with the size, it's the convenience. I can take the SD card out back to the PC at any time and check footage and audio in detail without interrupting my setup. Can't do that with built in memory unless you dick around with big full HD HDMI monitors and headphones on your rig etc.

[RyanAMT]

The AG-AC90A looks pretty neat, but ultimately the Canon is as good or better for much less cost, albeit slightly less versatile.
And I didn't see a real dB audio meter on it either. But I liked it's ability to delete the last clip. Seems like it has the same last scene preview limitation as the Canon.
The Canon is more compact, has a wider angle, more zoom, WiFi control, cheaper, and is familiar. I can almost buy two Canons for the price of the Panasonic.

I kind of figured it might be a bit overkill.  It has a db meter, although it doesn't display a numeric value just two little lines in the sweet spot of either -20 to -12 for digital or -12 to 0 for analog. 

The last scene preview is something that camera manufacturers never seem to care too much about in regards to making it more useful.  The only camera that I've used where they got it right is our Sony PMW200 - you only have to press the Thumbnail button and you can play any clip on the card or you can press another button to go back to back to the live view all without having to put the camera into an entirely different mode through some sort of a reboot.

Going with what is familiar is almost always the best option with video gear. 

[EEVblog]

I kind of figured it might be a bit overkill.  It has a db meter, although it doesn't display a numeric value just two little lines in the sweet spot of either -20 to -12 for digital or -12 to 0 for analog. 

What's that "-20 to -12 for digital" about?
I'm always aiming for that "analog" range.

[EEVblog]

OK, got it.
My VU meter is digital then obviously. 0dB is hits clipping. I've got the auto attenuator switched on which allows me to get closer to the 0dB clipping level on the meter without worrying about big transients kicking into clipping. Although it's still possible to clip if you drive it fast enough to beat the auto attenuator.
I usually aim for about -6dB on the meter. My Canon shows a green sweet spot marker at -12dB, but I never operate below for regular work I ensure my audio is at least hitting that point.

BTW, there is no "off" for the Auto Attenuator feature, only a fixed "ON" attenuator.

[timelessbeing]

re: image stabilisation comparison

Trying doing one of your walking rants, or running, or cycling, and see how it performs. That would be interesting.

[EEVblog]

re: image stabilisation comparison

For those subscribed to EEVblog2
A short extract from my full review of the HF G30 which I got.

[EEVblog]

BTW, I also got a Sony NEX-VG30 2nd hand dirt cheap, as I already had an e-mount lens for it.
Just got it today but can't say I'm all that impressed at first play. The Canon G30 just seems nicer and more professional to use in many regards.
The G30 is really quite awesome.
Not sure if I'll keep the Sony or resell it, need to play with it a bit more.
No idea about the bug yet, as that was always a rare intermittent thing.
Full G30 review shot and coming soon.

I now have 4 decent blogging cams:

[ResR]

Hey Dave.
I had a similar problem with my 7 years old Pentax Optio E30 that also didn't write the files properly. Turned out that the fault was a SD card (512Mb - as old as the camera itself, over 7000 pictures-videos)  that was simply getting old. Got new 8Gb card for 5 euros and the camera started to work again. Although the shutter button is starting to fail now. One problem ends with another...