Author Topic: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator  (Read 93993 times)

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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2015, 08:04:12 pm »
A way of getting the solder paste to PCB is as well with
dousing pump system, but a long hose would need to be attached to 0.5mm pencil /needle ....  and the drain of hose from pump to needle would be a problem - unused a lot of paste... 



Zapda - see if you can open this eBay link in US where you are and why dont you buy one  :)?
Mike

 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 08:17:20 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 08:10:57 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2015, 04:03:13 pm »
Zapda - see if you can open this eBay link in US where you are and why dont you buy one  :)?
Mike

Thanks Mike. This is a hobby for me so I prefer to build it. It's part of the fun.

Your way of filling it though the needle end is very interesting. I do it from the wide end and need to deal with air pockets that cause oozing.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2015, 04:22:05 pm »
Hello Zapta,
You have to do it my way (it is not actually my way) but it is the only proper way! Air should NOT enter Syringe Barrel. !! 
See note on my bottom eBay page: and I add it here!
Mike
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2015, 04:38:17 pm »
Mike, in my case I start with a jar of paste. Should I first drop into an auxiliary syringe and then pass it to the real one your way?
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2015, 05:27:57 pm »
Hello,
Once you open the Jar, I would say it it better to fill up a (spare) larger syringe depending on size of Jar...- this way paste stays in closed barrel and you will be able to use it longer time..  If you will open Jar several times paste losses lifetime due to contact with fresh air.  All depends on paste - the best is to get manufactures data sheet and follow it. Important is as well size of grain of paste, do not try to push larger grains trough small needle size!!  I was reading in this forum as well problems with paste sticking to needle, this can be avoided with a bit of pre-heating of solder paste in CLOSED syringe just before use to 40-60 C in hot water or with hot air gun, hair drier, etc.. You will get much better flow out from  needle and as well it will be much less force required from motor to push the paste out of needle. Some manufacturers prefer storing of paste at abt 8deg. C -12deg C, many people place paste at some lower spot in fridge - this cold paste is definitely needed to be pre-heated before use by any of dispensers...
I hope this helps you,
BR
Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2015, 05:42:35 pm »
Here a hand press tool for larger syringes For filling up and other needs - but not for PCB -solder paste application is to large.. for your info:
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2015, 07:46:55 pm »
Quote
Mike, in my case I start with a jar of paste. Should I first drop into an auxiliary syringe and then pass it to the real one your way?

What I do for this situation is make a long, pointy "pastry dispenser" with a piece of electrostatic bag. The silver kind with the conductive faraday cage, because it does not stretch. I make this with a heat sealer. Fill with goop, cut off the tip, then squirt this into a large diameter syringe. Tap the nose on the bench until the paste settles flat and any air bubbles come to the surface. The paste is so heavy that this will get rid of practically any air. The bubbles move slowly but surely to the surface. Then put the gasket in * and use that to fill the smaller syringe.
Quote
You have to do it my way (it is not actually my way) but it is the only proper way! Air should NOT enter Syringe Barrel.

You cannot fill an empty syringe from the needle end without introducing air, unless it has the kind of rubber gasket that has the nib on it that comes all the way to the tip of the syringe. And even that is not completely air free in most cases. This is why when you fill a syringe to give an injection, you have to squirt out that air bubble, first. So this method with a thick paste will get a little air at the very back of the syringe, where it will remain for the entire time. IME, having tried it both ways, it is better to fill it from the back end, using a long needle. Especially "hand solder paste" which you can make a little more fluxy than stencil paste.

Unless maybe you are refilling a syringe that is not completely empty, I don't see how filling from the needle end is better. Filling from the back it is pretty easy to get no air, at all. And if you get air in there, you can tap it out before you insert the gasket.

*When you're done filling from the back, insert the gasket with a wire between the gasket and the syringe body to let out the air. When filling from the tip, you could use the wire trick to get out most of the air out from the start. But filling from the back is just as good with the right tools, maybe even better and definitely easier. It's close to perfect. I even bought a luer lock to luer lock adapter to fill syringes tip to tip. It was simply not better, IMO, but then I'm filling new syringes and tossing them when done. With a fancy hand dispenser, I would likely do the same, using new syringe and gasket and tossing when done. Just stick the machined plunger into the back of the next syringe to reload.

 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 08:24:34 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2015, 08:25:58 pm »
Home made way here ; https://youtu.be/9EAbOFfHvNU
For professional use text under above video..
Br
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:43:50 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2015, 09:57:47 pm »
Any air in the tip of the empty syringe is trapped, the way your are filling. This is why I abandoned that method. I dunno what material you use for the white gasket in your video. A regular rubber gasket is easily placed in AFTER filling the syringe. Whether filling from the nose or from the back. You can let all the air out, when you learn the nuances to the wire trick. Even if you do it sloppy, you can easily beat the air that your method introduces.

If for some reason, the wire trick doesn't work with the custom gasket that your device uses, I might try filling the empty syringe with a little bit of flux. Then let the air bubble out before filling it with paste. This will leave a little liquid flux at the back of the syringe, instead of air.

The reason you want to get rid of the bubble at the back end of the syringe is because it's thousands of times more compressible than solder paste. It will act like a spring and will reduce the responsiveness/control of your paste dispenser.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 10:20:41 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2015, 06:15:45 pm »
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?

2. Do people that use those air pressure paste dispensers also have issues with filling and air bubbles (or is it a problem only with motorized dispensers)
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2015, 06:55:04 pm »
It's not rocket science. When you change your brake fluid, you bleed the line to remove the air. This is the same problem.

Yes, it can be adjusted for to some degree in any system. The system needs pull-back to compensate for the "oversqueeze", and it needs higher speed to compensate for the initial delay. Your brakes can still work with a little air, for example, and your foot will adjust to the new, spongy norm. But for the best control and response time, it will always be better for it to not be there.

I would think most people using compressed air systems are just buying paste in a syringe. I have mucked around with filling syringes to paste by hand. Transferring the paste to a thinner 3mL syringe reduces the pressure needed to move the paste.

Quote
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?
Take your syringe and remove the needle. Put the black twist cap on. Drop/throw it nose-down onto your bench, repeatedly, from a height of a couple inches. If there's air in it, it will be pushed to the back of the syringe where you will see a bubble form.

Don't go crazy with this. Do this long enough, and you will separate your paste. This is the main reason paste goes bad. The solder balls will eventually collect at the bottom, and the liquid flux will rise to the top. It's not a solution. It's a colloidal suspension.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 12:24:24 am by KL27x »
 

Offline packetbob

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2015, 09:43:31 pm »
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?

2. Do people that use those air pressure paste dispensers also have issues with filling and air bubbles (or is it a problem only with motorized dispensers)

If you don't see an air bubble between the plunger and the solder paste then it is probably not an issue...
I haven't found air bubbles in the paste to be an issue..
My bubbles are always between the plunger and the paste..
As KL24x mentions it will make the action of the plunger "spongy"....
An air bubble in the syringe affects things regardless of the type of dispenser
As mentioned putting a small wire along side the plunger as you put it into the syringe is probably the best way to avoid the bubbel..
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2015, 04:10:38 pm »
Hello,
If the motor on dispenser has a proper gear ratio there will be NO - " action of the plunger "spongy". My motor does not turn beck due to air bubble return pressure, even when you take the 5V power off ! - but if air is inside the air-compressed driven paste syringe when you release the pressure on driving unit - it will (should) return a bit to equalize the pressure...
Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2015, 04:37:40 pm »
My version IS USING A STEPPER !! 5V  NOT DC motor!!

With abt. 3cm  stroke you can do plenty of PCBs - it is a lot of paste.... I can say you can discharge almost all from typical syringes that are sold on the market (or sold by Farnell) including Chinese paste.
***It is about 5-7mm missing to discharge all from some syringes.. - you can add in a plastic toothpaste plug in and you will discharge all ... 
New version of dispenser (Dec 2015) has a longer piston and all can be discharged!!

The advantages I see are :
- No noise (no compressor), 5V stepper motor with gearbox are very quiet  :wtf:.
- Easy to handle - small size,
- you can plug down the needle and leave it for next paste to PCB..,
- Simple easy power supply 5V charger + USB cable (you can use USB from computer,...)..
- Cable ties look strange but -this is the only way to keep it simple and low cost, I had previous model with 20ml Al. & holder but costs... and than you are limited with syringe size - diameter and.... problems start...
-   and stepper motor with gearbox is strong /no maintenance needed, ...

I think it is handy all-doe not very fancy looking - but it was made for use not for beauty contest   :-DD

Try it out .... http://www.ebay.com/itm/271979673060?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

Larger and nice looking (as well 5V stepper but larger motor+gearbox) I have as well - but not on eBay where I sell this small....  Ask for price to my email if you want larger model for glue or other liquids or pastes -.....

I can say that from my sold Clients I get positive feedback on use; 
"  but until now it has worked without any problems and am very satisfied.
You have done a really good job. Thank you.  and continue with the good work"
Mike
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:49:07 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2015, 08:31:03 pm »
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #116 on: September 30, 2015, 10:17:12 pm »
Quote
If the motor on dispenser has a proper gear ratio there will be NO - " action of the plunger "spongy".

When there's a big ole air bubble in the syringe, this is a problem. The first turns of the motor compress the air bubble instead of dispensing paste. Then the pressure will finally ramp up enough for paste to start coming out at speed. Then after the paste is dispensed, the compressed air will slowly squeeze out a little more paste over time. Then when you pick up your dispenser after letting it sit for a minute, there's a little curly worm of semi-dried paste sticking off the end of the needle that doesn't want to stick to a pad and trying to use it will mess up the tip, so you might as well stop and clean off the tip to begin with. A compressed air system fairly effectively eliminates this by discharging all air pressure after dispensing, allowing the gasket to spring back rather than force paste through the needle.

I suppose you can program a stepper to pull back a little when done dispensing. But this has nothing to do with gearing of the motor.  :-// If you want to spit out precision amounts of paste, fast, taking the time to get rid of air is going to be beneficial.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 10:50:58 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2015, 08:34:11 pm »
Hello,
There are two buttons 1)PRESS and 2)Release  -you can release pressure any time - no need re-programming - already programmed.

It would be a time consuming work to study and make dispenser work automatic (push& a bit return) for all kinds of solder paste available on market and ;
- having in mind different size of OD of syringes,
- size of needles
and temperature of solder paste.... 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:55:56 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #118 on: October 04, 2015, 05:23:58 pm »
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?

You could try to use this one : http://www.ebay.de/itm/281737009862?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

there are quite a lot of steppers good quality available in Europe from Minebea - Matsushita Motor Corporation see data sheets enclosed.
I hope this helps! Good luck!
Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2015, 10:04:16 am »
Hello,
Here are some videos of 5V DC motor force achieved test..


and here my stepper dispenser motor test :


You can make conclusions yourself.
Mike
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2015, 10:41:50 am »
Quote
You can make conclusions yourself.

We might if we knew what scale the gauge uses - if it's grams it's not awfully impressive   O0
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2015, 10:47:10 am »
scale shows - kg  -

1 kg = 2.2 pounds  (depending where on globe you Google!)
http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/kilograms-to-pounds.htm
 
For some reason notes on video do not show up if using mobile phone..,
Try your computer or You Tube and you should be able to see notes of values added to video..
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 09:43:19 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2015, 12:04:34 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force)
There is no room for debate in the conversion, since pounds are defined in kilo's.
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2015, 12:09:16 pm »
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?

But is this the speed they can go?, say, for dispensing, it's ok, but if you pull it back, I would guess one would increase the speed just a tad, or is that no point?
Like, press for dispense, leave the button, and it pull back a tad fast, and press again, it push where it was, and a bit more for leaving the solder? (kinda like simulating the air based ones?)
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2015, 01:55:20 pm »
Quote
scale shows - kg

Shows something, but no way can it be read in the photo or video, hence my (light hearted) comment. Worth bearing in mind a lot of stuff isn't obvious to other folks that aren't there.
 


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