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Products => Other Equipment & Products => Topic started by: MrQuan on July 06, 2015, 03:26:55 am

Title: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: MrQuan on July 06, 2015, 03:26:55 am
G'day!

I'm looking for a manual syringe tool so I can use solder paste or flux in the type of syringes as seen in attached image.

I have an assortment of pastes and fluxes in this style of syringe. I also have one of those powered air compressor units, but I just want to be able to grab it and apply it for those one-off quick jobs without messy around with the air compressor unit.

I thought I could easily find a kit of some sort with needles and a hand plunger, or perhaps some type of gun holder thing, but I'm having difficulty.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Mr.B on July 06, 2015, 03:51:52 am
Something like this...

10cc
http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG10CCR/SMDSG10CCR-ND/2638971 (http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG10CCR/SMDSG10CCR-ND/2638971)

30cc
http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG30CCR/SMDSG30CCR-ND/4271879 (http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG30CCR/SMDSG30CCR-ND/4271879)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: MrQuan on July 06, 2015, 06:18:47 am
Yes, exactly like that :-) Thanks!

I'm might try to find a cheaper version now that I know what to look for.
It's nice to have that one as a plan B though (~ $82 AUD).
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Mr.B on July 06, 2015, 06:30:00 am
NZD 112... I didn't hesitate for the pure convenience.
I have no need to spend NZD 500 or more on an air powered foot pump, or even more for a specialist machine...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: MrQuan on July 06, 2015, 06:31:40 am
Yeah, I think you're right. Only decent alternative I found was this: http://www.mektronics.com.au/brands/metcal/metcal-manual-syringe-gun-10cc.html (http://www.mektronics.com.au/brands/metcal/metcal-manual-syringe-gun-10cc.html) but that's more expensive :-P

It would be silly for me to spend any more time on this. I like your option. Thanks again :-)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Mr.B on July 06, 2015, 06:41:47 am
You are welcome...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 06, 2015, 07:03:32 am
https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/)
This looks nice.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: MrQuan on July 06, 2015, 07:06:19 am
Yeah that does look nice. Good price too.
Looks like it's been sold out since February thought.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: tggzzz on July 06, 2015, 08:07:15 am
With applicators for paste (and silicon caulk etc) it was easy to provide enough force to start it extruding, but then it continued to extrude at a constant rate. That wouldn't be a problem except that due to my lack of skill the paste would form a "hair" as I moved it from one pad to another. What I really wanted was a mechanism that pushed until paste extruded and then pulled briefly until it stopped extruding - preferably controlled by a foot pedal.

In the absence of that, for one-off hobby applications, I found it satisfactory use a sewing needle to apply a blob to a pad. For larger boards I would use a stencil.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Mr.B on July 06, 2015, 08:55:29 am
I use stencils for almost everything, however every so often I just want to apply a little paste to a "demo" board.
This tool is perfect for this job... no need for an expensive paste applicator... not for me at least.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on July 06, 2015, 10:05:53 pm
The applicators shown, and especially the Tindie one, don't seem to do anything about precise dispensing volume. I get the same results from a 1ml syringe and whatever needle is the right size for the particular job. Cost is hard to say because I buy the syringes and needles in bulk, but they are cheap enough that they are disposable after a single job (although I use  them as long as they keep working, which can be a looong time).

To use, I take the 1ml syringe and squirt some paste into it from the master 10cc jobby (which then goes back into the fridge for longevity). Fit the needle, point, squirt. Since I'm a cheapskate I buy proper syringe needles, so before using a new one I clip the end to take off the sharp bit, and then file the now blunt end smooth. A few seconds is all it takes, and saves a tiny fortune.

The only drawback is the strange looks from the pharmacist when I buy the bits - probably thinks I'm a junky. Fixed that by buying online instead :)

These dry out eventually, but there isn't much paste in there so it's not a big problem to bin 'em and start again when that happens. The master 10CC lasts a lot longer than if it was used directly, though.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 07, 2015, 05:49:25 am
The problem is that if you squeeze syringe, the stuff pours out until you pull it back a little bit.
The pneumatic applicators fix that for your. But the glue applicators don't.
I'm not sure about the tindie one.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on July 07, 2015, 06:34:15 am
This one? http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser (http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on July 07, 2015, 07:58:09 am
Quote
if you squeeze syringe, the stuff pours out until you pull it back

It can do. With a bit of practice you can find the 'balance point' where it comes out slow enough that releasing the pressure a bit effectively stops it, but not so slow that you're getting bored waiting :)

But, yes, it's the main drawback and I thought these applicators would fix that, particularly for the prices they are being sold at. But the Tindie appears to suffer the same problem, so I wonder why you'd pay loadsawonga for that, and ruin your paste supply, when you can have the same problem much cheaper.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dmmt40 on July 19, 2015, 06:31:12 pm
This thread is a couple of days old but I just wanted to say that I've actually been working for the past 6 months on a little gadget to dispense all sorts of fluids without using compressed air.

It's similar in concept to the one neslekkim linked to but mine is designed so that changing syringes takes no more than a couple of seconds while retaining the ability to suck back the paste to avoid oozing.
It's very precise and repeatable because I originally designed to dispense low to medium viscosity fluids. However I recently upgraded the electronics to have more power and be able to push the much thicker solder paste... now I just have to find the right needles or tips to go with it.

 I should have it ready later this year to sell probably on Tindie and will let you guys know of course.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on July 19, 2015, 10:58:12 pm
Sounds promising - I'll be interested in taking a look with a view to acquiring one  :-+
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on July 20, 2015, 12:31:45 am
The one I bought shown in this thread  (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/automatic-paste-dispenser/msg72148/#msg72148)is still working well.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dmmt40 on July 20, 2015, 01:43:43 am
Sounds promising - I'll be interested in taking a look with a view to acquiring one  :-+

Thanks! I'm sure you'll like it  :)

Only recently I started playing around with solder paste but thankfully I had already mastered dispensing adhesives, and trust me those can be even more of a pain in the butt to work with (some need special teflon tips, refrigeration, some are sensitive to light, others to humidity uggh) but I'm confident it'll be alright.
I was looking at the dispenser robrenz mentioned and I truly believe this will be a more capable unit for an even cheaper price and small enough to fit in the hand.

Now I'm even more motivated to finish it knowing there really is a need or a "market" for it ;D
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: fugro on July 22, 2015, 03:04:30 pm
Looks like everything has been covered on this subject, . Have you tried <www.chipquik .com>?  They have a nice selection of soldering aids.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: packetbob on August 21, 2015, 12:32:15 am
I know this thread is a bit old but I have recently done up an Instructable on setting up, fixing up and using a 983A variant of the Chinese solder dispensers..

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-set-up-repair-adjust-and-use-a-solder-paste/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-set-up-repair-adjust-and-use-a-solder-paste/)

Anyone interested in getting one may find it (along with the various threads in the EEVblog forum) helpful...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 21, 2015, 01:18:56 am
The problem is that if you squeeze syringe, the stuff pours out until you pull it back a little bit.
The pneumatic applicators fix that for your. But the glue applicators don't.
I'm not sure about the tindie one.

I tried the tindie applicator and the paste kept flowing after the release. The automatic ones so apply negative pressure at the end but they require a air pressure supply which adds to the cost and complexity.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on August 21, 2015, 01:56:36 pm
I know this thread is a bit old but I have recently done up an Instructable on setting up, fixing up and using a 983A variant of the Chinese solder dispensers..

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-set-up-repair-adjust-and-use-a-solder-paste/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-set-up-repair-adjust-and-use-a-solder-paste/)

Anyone interested in getting one may find it (along with the various threads in the EEVblog forum) helpful...

Very good instructable!, i have the same solderpaste dispenser, but not used it since I don't have air, I like that you have fixed lot of the things inside it, I think I have to do that also.
Must try to see if there is some small quiet compressors that I can use indoor.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: fivefish on August 21, 2015, 03:59:36 pm
The compressor does not need to be running all the time while you're using the paste dispenser. You can fill up a tank, hook it up to your paste dispenser and start working.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on August 21, 2015, 04:28:27 pm
The compressor does not need to be running all the time while you're using the paste dispenser. You can fill up a tank, hook it up to your paste dispenser and start working.

Yes, but how small can one go on compressors with tank?
I was thinking about some small airbrush thingy or something like that.. but those are noisy..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: packetbob on August 21, 2015, 04:50:37 pm
You can use a portable air tank. The idea is that you would fill it up at an auto service station and then bring it to your workplace. I was able to get about 1200 shots out of a tank before it needed to be re-filled. You have the in-convenience of having to tank the tank to get refilled but the convenience of no compressor (or the associated noise) being needed at your workplace.

In the long run a compressor is much more convenient but it is certainly possible to use the portable air tank and get most boards done in a single fill.....

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 21, 2015, 09:10:43 pm
Wouldn't this be possible using the air cardridges used by paintball guns?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: fivefish on August 22, 2015, 05:24:38 am
I saw a blog posting where the guy used ordinary compressed air (duster can). Of course, he had to rig coupling adapters to connect it to the unit. 

PS: The hose coupler that is originally installed in these units (from China) do not fit the USA standard shop compressor tank couplings/valves/whatever you call them. I had to cut mine and install a new quick-disconnect so I can hook it up to my air compressor tank.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 22, 2015, 04:37:12 pm
I am looking around for DIY paste dispensers that don't require air pressure.  Found an older design that had once a board sold on Tindie and a new once with a video on you tube. Both use a small step motor and a screw to push the plunger. I don't think they pull back to avoid oozing but I see why a 3D printed plunger can't fit into the rubber plunger and pull it back.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:384680 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:384680)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurK1yjgyEU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurK1yjgyEU)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 26, 2015, 04:40:27 pm
I built a prototype based on Geir's design. The mechanical design is different and allows to motor to pull the plunger back to avoid oozing. I am now playing with the motor control parameters to see if I can get consistent drops. The design files are here though this is still a work in progress.  https://github.com/zapta/misc/tree/master/paste_injector (https://github.com/zapta/misc/tree/master/paste_injector)

The controller is Arduino Pro Mini, the motor is 28BYJ-48, and I use the AccelStepper library to control it.

One thing I learned so far is that avoiding air bubbles in the syringe helps with the oozing presentation.

(http://i.imgur.com/nzhRMj8.jpg)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 27, 2015, 03:47:16 am
I am getting very good results with the prototype. Initially I tried generate individual drops, that is, on each button press, push the plunger forward N steps, then immedielty pull back M<N steps to avoid oozing but it was difficult to control the drop size, especially the the solder paste had a few air pockets as well as air between the rubber seal and the plunger.

The approach that is giving me good results is simply push the plunger in continuously and slowly. This way I place the needed on the pad wait a second or two and move to the next one. If a pad needs more paste I can just wait more. This way I could get very small drops. Also, having the needle orthogonal to the PCB such that the PCB touches the entire opening of the needle gets the paste to stick better.

Next step is to figure out the ergonomic, how many controls/buttons to use and at what location. I find it easier to hold the unit vertically with both hands, one at the top and the other at the bottom guide the needle.

So far it looks very promising. Always wanted one but didn't want to bother with an air compressor.

Cost is very low, the motor with the controller is about $2, and then just a ULN2003, a small AVR, buttons, etc, and it can operate on a standard 5V USB charger.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on August 27, 2015, 10:43:46 am
Please do keep us informed of your progress. I am feeling the urge to justify a 3D printer for this :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 27, 2015, 11:31:20 am
Yes. If anyone has a link to where you can buy such a thing. Please share.
I've no room for a cnc or 3d printer  :(
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Psi on August 27, 2015, 11:38:14 am
Whats wrong with your typical syringe and its plunger.
As long as you get the right sort of solder paste (something that isn't too thick) it works well and you can repeatedly put a tiny bit of paste on pads pretty quickly.

Although it can be a bit tricky to hold if the syringe is very full, due to the length that the plunger sticks out.
But its easy fixed by removing some paste or getting less full syringes

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 27, 2015, 01:17:14 pm
Whats wrong with your typical syringe and its plunger.

I tried it in the past with CML/Kester EP256 and Chipquik T3 paste and didn't get good results. It was difficult to get consistent amounts and the paste didn't stick well to the board. Possibly a better flowing paste such as ChipQuik T5 will give better results.

With the motorized approach, the paste keeps flowing very slowly and pressing the needle vertically against the PCB creates a tiny drop of paste that is stuck well to the board.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Psi on August 28, 2015, 06:27:31 am
I find chipquik paste is always far to thick to hand paste with a syringe.

The loctite paste I have atm is perfect for hand application. The label has worn off though so i can't give you a part number.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 28, 2015, 01:30:19 pm
I find chipquik paste is always far to thick to hand paste with a syringe.

The loctite paste I have atm is perfect for hand application. The label has worn off though so i can't give you a part number.

I got recently ChipQuik T5 paste (finger solder balls) and it is runnier and stockier than their T3, at least when fresh.

Somebody also mentioned here Teflon coated needle that make the paste flow better.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on August 29, 2015, 11:46:10 pm
It's almost as easy to me to hand solder vs dotting every pad, placing every part (on a necessarily small panel), then messing up and bridging every SSOP. I can only get SSOP right half the time, even with a stencil.

But FWIW, if you want to manually paste, try this before getting super fancy:

1. 3cc syringes. Smaller diameter = more pressure/leverage with a given effort. Like putting the bike into first gear.
2. Plastic tips. The pink ones (I think 20 gauge?) A tapered plastic tip = more flow for a given pressure and less continuation after pressure is ceased.

Take a big bore needle and put it on your standard solder paste syringe. Stick it all the way down into the back of the 3cc syringe. Fill up, avoiding any air bubbles. Easy, peasy. Now take the plunger and a piece of stripped 30 AWG wire. Stick the end of the wire into the back of the syringe as you push the plunger in. This lets out the air. Once seated, remove the wire. Turn the syringe rightside up and squeeze out any air left in the tip.

Tip: Fill up all your 3mm syringes at once, until your main syringe is empty. But put the rubber piece, only, into the back, without the plastic plunger. That makes for more compact and secure storage. (Make sure to use luer lock syringes, and buy the black plastic caps). When you need a new syringe, pull the plastic plunger out of the old one and secure into the new syringe, before removing the black plastic cap.

You can also buy a luer lock-to-luer lock adapter for filling syringes point-to-point, so to speak. I bought one of those. Didn't really pan out. In fact, filling from the back left little to no air and was better.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 30, 2015, 04:47:05 pm
Take a big bore needle and put it on your standard solder paste syringe. Stick it all the way down into the back of the 3cc syringe.

Do you mean forcing the needle into the syringe main chamber?

Now take the plunger and a piece of stripped 30 AWG wire. Stick the end of the wire into the back of the syringe as you push the plunger in. This lets out the air. Once seated, remove the wire. Turn the syringe rightside up and squeeze out any air left in the tip.

The wire trick is interesting, I will give it a try. Hopefully it doesn't damage the rubber.

I also noticed that some syringes have an air bubble by design. Noticed it for example with a Kester paste I got from CML. Look at the picture below, the plastic pusher has a flat end but the rubber seal is conic (on both sides) which creates an air bubble between the pusher and the rubber. Other syringes have a conic pusher end which fits the rubber seal.

(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0070/6802/products/JGM10LL-15_large.jpg)

... and buy the black plastic caps

Does it go over the needed?  Any link or picture?

2. Plastic tips. The pink ones (I think 20 gauge?) A tapered plastic tip = more flow for a given pressure and less continuation after pressure is ceased.

There are also needles coated internally with PTFE which result is smoother flow. Somebody mentioned them here once and mcmaster carrys them.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on August 31, 2015, 08:31:10 pm
Quote
Do you mean forcing the needle into the syringe main chamber?
No. I was just needlessly describing the obvious. Take the empty, open 3mL syringe without the gasket in the back and hold it nose down. And lower the supply syringe needle as far down into the back of the syringe as it will reach. And then fill the 3mL syringe from the bottom (nose) to the top (back).

Then insert the thin wire into the open back of the syringe before putting the rubber gasket in. The wire rides between the side of the gasket and the chamber, allowing a tiny imperfection to let the air out as you push the gasket in, so you don't get a spongy air bubble at the back of the syringe between the solder paste and the gasket, which would defeat the purpose of using a smaller syringe. When you press the plunger you want solder to come out, immediately. Any air that is inside the syringe will cause a delay when you press on the plunger, while the air is compressing. And any (now) compressed air inside is what causes the paste to continue dispensing after you let go of the plunger. You have to be careful to not make any air bubbles when filling the syringe.

The black screw on caps are luer lock. You take the needle off to use the caps.
http://www.amazon.com/Luer-Lock-Dispensing-Syringe-Pack/dp/B00BQ4IO84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441053085&sr=8-1&keywords=syringe+caps (http://www.amazon.com/Luer-Lock-Dispensing-Syringe-Pack/dp/B00BQ4IO84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441053085&sr=8-1&keywords=syringe+caps)

If you leave the needle on, it doesn't matter how tiny the gauge is. The solder paste will dry out from the needle end, back up into the chamber, plugging the syringe with dried out solder paste cement. If you are going to use the syringe again within a day or two, you can leave the needle on. But if you're done, toss the needle and put the cap on.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on August 31, 2015, 08:58:42 pm
Thanks KL27x, I will order a few caps.

Do you have also a link to the plastic needles that you use?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on August 31, 2015, 09:05:17 pm
http://www.amazon.com/Dispensing-Needle-Plastic-Tapered-0-024id/dp/B001QQ9QH0/ref=pd_sim_328_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1S923AYQWAJQFNA2PQ7X&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_ (http://www.amazon.com/Dispensing-Needle-Plastic-Tapered-0-024id/dp/B001QQ9QH0/ref=pd_sim_328_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1S923AYQWAJQFNA2PQ7X&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on August 31, 2015, 10:13:30 pm
These 3mL syringes and this particular plastic needle is also handy for dispensing liquid rosin flux. I leave the needle on with rosin, no problem. I can't seem to keep a rosin pen tip from clogging and/or fraying to shambles, and it's not very convenient to soak the pen in alcohol before I can use it.

Even if you habitually dispense 5 times as much flux as you wanted, it's still cheaper than using flux pens, and there's no such thing as too much flux. On a fresh board, you can squirt out a little puddle and wipe it around the board with a bit of paper towel.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 01, 2015, 01:56:30 am
These 3mL syringes and this particular plastic needle is also handy for dispensing liquid rosin flux. I leave the needle on with rosin, no problem. I can't seem to keep a rosin pen tip from clogging and/or fraying to shambles, and it's not very convenient to soak the pen in alcohol before I can use it.

Even if you habitually dispense 5 times as much flux as you wanted, it's still cheaper than using flux pens, and there's no such thing as too much flux. On a fresh board, you can squirt out a little puddle and wipe it around the board with a bit of paper towel.
Ever considered a refillable brush pen (Bonkote (https://www.all-spec.com/search?keywords=bonkote&x=25&i=1&pl=SOL-04&f=p) for example)?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 01, 2015, 02:51:12 am
Ever considered a refillable brush pen (Bonkote (https://www.all-spec.com/search?keywords=bonkote&x=25&i=1&pl=SOL-04&f=p) for example)?

The solder paste is probably too thick.

How good are those reusable Bonkote applicators for flex, for example Kester 951?  Do they get messy? Easy to clean?

Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd (http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 01, 2015, 02:36:29 pm
Ever considered a refillable brush pen (Bonkote (https://www.all-spec.com/search?keywords=bonkote&x=25&i=1&pl=SOL-04&f=p) for example)?

The solder paste is probably too thick.

How good are those reusable Bonkote applicators for flex, for example Kester 951?  Do they get messy? Easy to clean?

Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd (http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd)
Solder paste would be a total disaster (just meant for flux).  :-DD

As per applying flux, they're rather nice IME (beware of the fakes on eBay*; the lowest price I've seen here in the US is ~$15 for a single, with most places wanting ~$17 - $20).I've never actually had to clean one (entire unit), but running some alcohol through it wouldn't be that difficult (only swished the brush end around in some alcohol).

* The fakes actually can be used, but you'll likely have to remove the internal reservoir components (remove valve, as they only sort of work). Usable, but you'll have to keep the brush end up to keep the flux from dripping/spilling.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 01, 2015, 03:36:19 pm
Thanks nanofrog. They have several tip models. Which one do you recommend for SMD work?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 01, 2015, 05:32:25 pm
Thanks nanofrog. They have several tip models. Which one do you recommend for SMD work?
I only have the BON-102 (https://www.all-spec.com/products/BON-102-1.html) (small fine point nylon brush), so I use it for everything. The brush tip truly does makes a very fine point when it's wet, so it's very nice for SMD work IME (you'll really appreciate it when drag soldering  ;)). Holds more than enough flux for PTH too (it's fine point, but the brush itself isn't micro sized, so can hold a decent amount of flux).

Prior to trying the Bonkote, I was just dipping inexpensive artist brushes into a tiny well of flux in a porcelain spot plate or using a needle bottle. Found the brush gave the most control, and I figure the brush versions will outlast the felt tips (assuming the felt used is equivalent). And all of it is less expensive than the disposable pens.  :-+

(http://i.imgur.com/JCRBN9e.jpg) (http://imgur.com/JCRBN9e)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 01, 2015, 05:51:46 pm
Checked farnell now, and there are many called BON-102.. hm?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 01, 2015, 06:49:36 pm
Checked farnell now, and there are many called BON-102.. hm?
No letter following the 102 is the model in the photo (original). A letter after the 102 = one of the newer styles they've come out with.

Unfortunately, it appears Farnell have stopped stocking the singles and only offer the 5 packs now (BON-102 5pack (http://uk.farnell.com/bonkote/bon-102/flux-pen-cone-shape-tip/dp/2409548)). There's also a kit (all 6 styles, here (http://uk.farnell.com/bonkote/bon-102a/kit-flux-pen-6-pieces/dp/2409556?ost=bonkote&categoryId=700000004403)).

Fortunately, Ideal-Tek is a distributor and they're available on Amazon.de ("Ideal-Tek Dosing Pen" (http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ideal-tek+dosing+pen&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aideal-tek+dosing+pen) shows you all of them; just the BON-102 (http://www.amazon.de/IDL-BON-102-Dosing-pens-Plug-paintbrush/dp/B013RJGRZM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1441132627&sr=8-2&keywords=IDL-BON-102+Dosing+pen)).  :-+

Datasheet (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1908105.pdf) might be of some use (.pdf; nice close-up photos to show the different tips available).

Hope this helps sort your import duty fees.   ;)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Augustus on September 01, 2015, 07:10:54 pm
Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd (http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd)

They seem to be heavily counterfeit, so yes, be careful... I bought one of the 102s from Banggood (SKU188447) and of course it was a fake, doesn't work at all. The flux doesn't flow to the tip, it leaks all over if you dare to squeeze it, the tip dries out...  So I threw it in the bin, lesson learned...   |O
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 01, 2015, 08:11:38 pm
Hope this helps sort your import duty fees.   ;)

It doesn't for me, Norway is outside EU, but good source at least if they sell to Norway (Or hopefully someone there can mail one), I found mostly 5packs at farnel, but they had one that was in a single but not much information about it.
Atleast looking at the pictures, these looks better than the clone I bought from ebay
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 01, 2015, 08:30:51 pm
Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd (http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd)

They seem to be heavily counterfeit, so yes, be careful... I bought one of the 102s from Banggood (SKU188447) and of course it was a fake, doesn't work at all. The flux doesn't flow to the tip, it leaks all over if you dare to squeeze it, the tip dries out...  So I threw it in the bin, lesson learned...   |O
I wouldn't trust eBay either, to be safe.

As per your counterfeit, remove the internal tube assy., and give that a try (not quite the real thing, but still usable IMHO).  ;)

Hope this helps sort your import duty fees.   ;)

It doesn't for me, Norway is outside EU, but good source at least if they sell to Norway (Or hopefully someone there can mail one), I found mostly 5packs at farnel, but they had one that was in a single but not much information about it.
Atleast looking at the pictures, these looks better than the clone I bought from ebay
I recall. But I also recall Ammoniacal's mention of using Amazon.de to get around the variable inspection fee nonsense by your postal system (i.e. gave me the clear impression this was the cheapest way to import into Norway). So I'm a bit confused (doesn't qualify/meet the conditions for the program, aren't aware of the program, or other?).  :-//

BTW, if someone else sends you one, how does that package avoid the inspection fee nonsense & import duties?
Just in the paperwork (i.e. marked personal, cash value = 0 EUR type of declarations)?

Hakko offers a similar item, the FS-210 (http://www.tequipment.net/Hakko/FS-210/Soldering-Accessories/?search=true), but it's more than double the BON-102 here, and Hakko isn't known for low cost in the EU, so I don't usually think about it. Alternative should you need it/stumble across one at a steal of a deal sort of thing.  8)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 01, 2015, 08:59:48 pm
I recall. But I also recall Ammoniacal's mention of using Amazon.de to get around the variable inspection fee nonsense by your postal system (i.e. gave me the clear impression this was the cheapest way to import into Norway). So I'm a bit confused (doesn't qualify/meet the conditions for the program, aren't aware of the program, or other?).  :-//

BTW, if someone else sends you one, how does that package avoid the inspection fee nonsense & import duties?
Just in the paperwork (i.e. marked personal, cash value = 0 EUR type of declarations)?

Hakko offers a similar item, the FS-210 (http://www.tequipment.net/Hakko/FS-210/Soldering-Accessories/?search=true), but it's more than double the BON-102 here, and Hakko isn't known for low cost in the EU, so I don't usually think about it. Alternative should you need it/stumble across one at a steal of a deal sort of thing.  8)

Letters aren't inspected unless they look like coming from companies, and if one use the CN22 sticker with information about value, and use a low value it also passes, the limit today is 350NOK, about $40-42, so as long as shipping and itemcost is below that it's ok, So if the seller have low cost on the shipping it would be ok.
I will check that seler on amazon to see.
If they only took the tax, it's no problem, but the fee they also makes it total up to a bit more than what one expect.

But buying from Farnell is ok, as long as one is company, because Farnell handles all tax stuff, also Amazon from US, they also handles the tax, but not sure about German Amazon.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 01, 2015, 10:46:58 pm
I recall. But I also recall Ammoniacal's mention of using Amazon.de to get around the variable inspection fee nonsense by your postal system (i.e. gave me the clear impression this was the cheapest way to import into Norway). So I'm a bit confused (doesn't qualify/meet the conditions for the program, aren't aware of the program, or other?).  :-//

BTW, if someone else sends you one, how does that package avoid the inspection fee nonsense & import duties?
Just in the paperwork (i.e. marked personal, cash value = 0 EUR type of declarations)?

Hakko offers a similar item, the FS-210 (http://www.tequipment.net/Hakko/FS-210/Soldering-Accessories/?search=true), but it's more than double the BON-102 here, and Hakko isn't known for low cost in the EU, so I don't usually think about it. Alternative should you need it/stumble across one at a steal of a deal sort of thing.  8)

Letters aren't inspected unless they look like coming from companies, and if one use the CN22 sticker with information about value, and use a low value it also passes, the limit today is 350NOK, about $40-42, so as long as shipping and itemcost is below that it's ok, So if the seller have low cost on the shipping it would be ok.
I will check that seler on amazon to see.
If they only took the tax, it's no problem, but the fee they also makes it total up to a bit more than what one expect.

But buying from Farnell is ok, as long as one is company, because Farnell handles all tax stuff, also Amazon from US, they also handles the tax, but not sure about German Amazon.
TheAmmoniacal (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=89934) regularly orders through Amazon.de, so it might be worth a PM to get the particulars.  ;)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Augustus on September 02, 2015, 08:10:32 am
I wouldn't trust eBay either, to be safe.

As per your counterfeit, remove the internal tube assy., and give that a try (not quite the real thing, but still usable IMHO).  ;)

Yeah, just look at how this ebay seller edited the "Bonkote Japan" sticker out of the images, this is a fake, 100%  ^-^

My counterfeit was really hopeless, I tried it without the inner assembly but still no luck. And it leaked badly, had to seal the thread with electrical tape, just to discover that the IPA in the flux dissolved the glue and the sticky mess started all over again. I'm back to empty nail polish flacons again, the ones with the little brushes, they work perfectly for me  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ElektroQuark on September 02, 2015, 09:36:59 am
This is my approach to a syringe dispenser:

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/EdoNork/20150902_111858_zpstxs3jx9w.jpg)

It's a work in progress.

It is a "bench dispenser", it will go in the Hammond case.

It is pending for cabling, design the pencil and fine tune the firmware.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 02, 2015, 11:23:41 am
This is my approach to a syringe dispenser:

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/EdoNork/20150902_111858_zpstxs3jx9w.jpg)

It's a work in progress.

It is a "bench dispenser", it will go in the Hammond case.

It is pending for cabling, design the pencil and fine tune the firmware.

Are you going to use a tube out of the syringe?

BTW, plastic parts looks very good, are they 3D printed?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ElektroQuark on September 02, 2015, 11:43:48 am
Yes, I will be using a fine tubing like this:

(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v3/493777345/Small_Diameter_Capillary_Hose_PTFE_Tube.jpg)

with a Luer Lock coupling to the syringe and a dispenser pen.

And yes, plastic parts are printed. May be the pen will be printed too. The pen must have a switch to feed the paste.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on September 02, 2015, 01:24:11 pm
This is my approach to a syringe dispenser:

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/EdoNork/20150902_111858_zpstxs3jx9w.jpg)

It's a work in progress.

It is a "bench dispenser", it will go in the Hammond case.

It is pending for cabling, design the pencil and fine tune the firmware.

Are you interested in some constructive criticism of the mechanical aspects of what you have so far?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ElektroQuark on September 02, 2015, 01:27:15 pm
Quote from: robrenz on Today at 13:24:11 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=50352.msg745499#msg745499)
Are you interested in some
constructive criticism of the mechanical aspects of what you have so far?




Of course.

But some comments:

- It is in its early design ideas.

- Syringe body is heavily engaged to the support: it can't move

- Suringe plunger is heavily engaged too to the moving plastic piece.

Hope this helps you helping me :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 02, 2015, 02:47:30 pm
But some comments:

- It is in its early design ideas.

- Syringe body is heavily engaged to the support: it can't move

- Suringe plunger is heavily engaged too to the moving plastic piece.

Hope this helps you helping me :)

Is it intended to dispense solder paste?  It may be too thick for that
 tube.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ElektroQuark on September 02, 2015, 03:36:00 pm
The tube has an internal diameter similar to a dispensing needle.
I will try it this weekend if children leave some time for me.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on September 02, 2015, 05:13:37 pm
Of course.

But some comments:

- It is in its early design ideas.

- Syringe body is heavily engaged to the support: it can't move

- Suringe plunger is heavily engaged too to the moving plastic piece.

Hope this helps you helping me :)

The distance between the screw axis and the syringe axis is what needs improvement. Ideally you would have the screw axis inline with the syringe axis. I can do a sketch of what that would look like if you are interested. If not you should redo the two plastic pieces that connect to the syringe with the distance between the screw axis and the syringe axis made as short as physically possible. what you have now puts severe binding forces on the screw and nut. And the long thin arm connecting the nut and syringe also is much too flexible for precise control of small volumes.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/EdoNork/20150902_111858_zpstxs3jx9w.jpg)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ElektroQuark on September 02, 2015, 05:50:01 pm
Hi robrenz,

I wanted to put motor and syringe inline, but no space.
The plastic piece has two nuts separate 15 mm on the screw side.
Distance between syringe and screw axes is 40 mm.
The plastic piece is 20 mm tall and 5 mm thick in its smaller part. It's PLA, very rigid.
I can, and will, make that piece thicker and separate the screw nuts.
I needed the syringe to test, and it arrived yesterday.

Please, go ahead with your comments. Thanks.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on September 02, 2015, 06:30:03 pm
May I humbly suggest that I sketch a suggested layout before you make any more parts?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 02, 2015, 07:02:44 pm
The other stepper based one, have custommade plunger, with an embedded nut, so you can have the stepper in a better place..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ElektroQuark on September 02, 2015, 07:45:26 pm
Sure.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on September 02, 2015, 08:43:11 pm
I think you might have issues with the long thin tubing. Long thin tubing increases the drag on the highly viscous solder paste. More drag >> more pressure >> more stretching/ballooning of the tubing and the syringe body, and more compression of the rubber gasket = solder paste taking a longer delay before it dispenses and also continued solder paste squeezed out after the stepper motor stops moving.

The latter part can be alleviated by firmware to some extent. The former, not so much.

The obvious solution is to use larger diameter tubing with a small needle just on the end. But the obvious problem is the waste of a lot of solder paste, unless you use this thing very frequently.

I think a handheld design will work better, for this reason.

Even as is, I see a lot of solder paste used to prime the tubing, and then a log of clogged line when the solder paste eventually dries out, despite your best efforts. But if you assemble boards very frequently, I guess this is going to be fine! :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on September 02, 2015, 09:40:13 pm
Quote
Long thin tubing increases the drag on the highly viscous solder paste

Agreed in spades. But... [perhaps only partly in jest] how about filling that tube with paste, and then instead of trying to push more through, you peel back the end to uncover however much solder you need.

That didn't seem like as daft an idea as I thought it would, so I wondered if you could create a sheath that would evaporate when heated to >150C or so (save having to peel it back as you feed it). And that led to me thinking that maybe if you could create some solid flux-like sheath it would be brilliant. And then I realised I'd just invented inside-out solder, so perhaps not :(
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 02, 2015, 11:18:02 pm
The other stepper based one, have custommade plunger, with an embedded nut, so you can have the stepper in a better place..

I also ordered these and will give them a try, instead of the embedded nut.  It will be useful also for the 4 screws that secure the motor and the syringe.  Should be able to insert them with a standard soldering iron.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#94180a353/=yrotk6 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#94180a353/=yrotk6)

Edit: initially I used two gliding rods to prevent the plunger to rotate with the long screw but I removed them and it works just as well. There is sufficient friction between the gasket and the cylinder to prevent rotation. Latest STL are here https://github.com/zapta/misc/tree/master/paste_injector/openscad (https://github.com/zapta/misc/tree/master/paste_injector/openscad) (will tweak the M4 insert dimensions once they arrive) and Arduino Pro Mini sketch here https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/arduino/arduino.ino (https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/arduino/arduino.ino)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 02, 2015, 11:41:53 pm
There are many models of syringe pumps on the market. I am not sure though if they are a good fit for accurate solder paste dispensing.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=syringe+pump&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIlObkp8LZxwIVln6ICh3dmgA5 (https://www.google.ca/search?q=syringe+pump&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIlObkp8LZxwIVln6ICh3dmgA5)

(https://www.helmholtz-berlin.de/pubbin/igama_output?modus=datei&did=273)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 03, 2015, 12:36:18 am
Quote
Long thin tubing increases the drag on the highly viscous solder paste

Agreed in spades. But... [perhaps only partly in jest] how about filling that tube with paste, and then instead of trying to push more through, you peel back the end to uncover however much solder you need.

That didn't seem like as daft an idea as I thought it would, so I wondered if you could create a sheath that would evaporate when heated to >150C or so (save having to peel it back as you feed it). And that led to me thinking that maybe if you could create some solid flux-like sheath it would be brilliant. And then I realised I'd just invented inside-out solder, so perhaps not :(
Solder Paste Sausage  :-DD
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on September 03, 2015, 02:00:24 pm
Sure.

I was initially focused just on the mechanical layout of what you had shown but the comments on the long tubing issues by KL27x are right on!  I would first try the tubing setup manually to see the problems yourself. I think you will find the bench with tubing idea to have too many negatives.  I can still sketch a improved mechanical layout but I think this is doomed with the long tubing idea.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 03, 2015, 03:17:43 pm
Robenz, you have the know how and tools to offer great paste dispensers that don't require air compressor. Have you considered it?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on September 03, 2015, 03:30:48 pm
Robenz, you have the know how and tools to offer great paste dispensers that don't require air compressor. Have you considered it?

Thanks for your confidence in me!  I have not thought about it because I have an air dispenser that works very well. That is a very good idea that I will put some thought into. :-+
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 03, 2015, 07:09:49 pm
Robenz, you have the know how and tools to offer great paste dispensers that don't require air compressor. Have you considered it?

Thanks for your confidence in me!  I have not thought about it because I have an air dispenser that works very well. That is a very good idea that I will put some thought into. :-+

I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser (http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser)
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: robrenz on September 03, 2015, 07:24:52 pm
Nice, but I am thinking purely mechanical operation.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 03, 2015, 07:37:29 pm
Nice, but I am thinking purely mechanical operation.

yes, but can it be handheld?, with some light and strong materials that would be cool., but I'm not so sure about this idea: https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 03, 2015, 09:07:07 pm
I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser (http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser)
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?

My prototype is based on this one with two changes, it can also pull back and it didn't need the two guiding rods which makes it simpler to construct.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 03, 2015, 09:47:42 pm
I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser (http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser)
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?

My prototype is based on this one with two changes, it can also pull back and it didn't need the two guiding rods which makes it simpler to construct.

That one can also pull back, just a small change to the source..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 04, 2015, 03:34:27 am
I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser (http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser)
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?

My prototype is based on this one with two changes, it can also pull back and it didn't need the two guiding rods which makes it simpler to construct.

That one can also pull back, just a small change to the source..

Are you sure? The nut is not embedded so I think it can only push but not pull. I printed it from the files on Thingiverse.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 04, 2015, 06:26:42 am
Are you sure? The nut is not embedded so I think it can only push but not pull. I printed it from the files on Thingiverse.

Good call.. Glue the nut in.. ;)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 04, 2015, 07:06:22 am
Are you sure? The nut is not embedded so I think it can only push but not pull. I printed it from the files on Thingiverse.

Good call.. Glue the nut in.. ;)

I don't think the other end of the plunger can pull, it's just flat. The original version was not designed to pull, just to release pressure, that's why it needed the two guides, to prevent it from rotating with the shaft.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 06, 2015, 04:58:55 am
Spend some time this weekend to work on the paste dispenser.  A few pictures below. My conclusion so far are that 1) it's workable  2) control and results are much better than pressing the syringe by hand, 3) printing result is not as good as using a stencil, 3) the quality of the paste makes a big difference.

Using a cheap Mechanic paste from ebay. The paste barely sticks to the board. Big mess. I was able to assemble that board but it required massive rework.
(http://i.imgur.com/9WoAlHW.jpg)

Using a good quality ChipQuik T4 paste. It sticks much better and provides good control. This board required significantly less rework.
(http://i.imgur.com/h7qQbzp.jpg)

The mechanical contraption. All blue pieces are 3D printed with PLA on a RepRap printer. The syringe is hold in place using a plate and two M4 screws. The syringe can be rotate around to optimize the orientation when using a bent needle.
(http://i.imgur.com/rbFGRXA.jpg)

The dispenser disassembled. The motor to threaded shaft coupler is also 3D printed and is held in place using two M3 screws and nuts.
(http://i.imgur.com/UFI31q7.jpg)

Another view
(http://i.imgur.com/LZvQnnQ.jpg)

The motor mount
(http://i.imgur.com/6Cryn03.jpg)

A look into the plunger. The thread is a M4 heat fit insert (mcmaster 94180A353).
(http://i.imgur.com/DDSnOML.jpg)

The bottom of the motor mount. Same M4 threaded inserts.
(http://i.imgur.com/qN892v3.jpg)




Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on September 06, 2015, 09:56:08 am
Looks impressive :)

What happens when the syringe is worn out, specifically the neoprene seal on the end of the custom plunger? Presumably you nick the one off a new syringe?

FWIW, by hand I use a 1ml syringe since it gives the most movement to small amount of paste. I think the  luer lock only shows up on 3ml a bigger, though. But, anyway, maybe a smaller syringe might improve delivery a bit due the the higher 'gearing'.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 06, 2015, 12:27:53 pm
This build looks impressive!.
You printed the plunger so it can pull the rubber piston back?

A look into the plunger. The thread is a M4 heat fit insert (mcmaster 94180A353).
(http://i.imgur.com/DDSnOML.jpg)

After looking at mcmaster page for that heat fit insert, I wonder, the installation tip for soldering iron, I cannot find any information about that, which soldering iron will it fit?
Or did you use other ways of inserting it?

I guess Mcmaster still don't want to ship internationally, I tried last in 2011, but no-go.

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 06, 2015, 05:06:04 pm
What happens when the syringe is worn out, specifically the neoprene seal on the end of the custom plunger? Presumably you nick the one off a new syringe?

Considering the low amount of movement I don't think the syringe will worn that quickly. At one point I cleaned up the syringe and plunger with IPA and then the seal did not fit in because of too high friction so I put a small amount of silicon grease and it went in smoothly (which made me to think that syringes come with a small amount of lubricant).

There are many 10ml syringes available on the internet and they are cheap. One thing you need to make sure is that the one you buy fit the plunger you printed. Below are the ends of two 10ml plungers, the one at the top fits the plunger I printed. You can tell between them by the number of black seal rings you see from the outside, the one at the top has two rings and the one of the bottom has three rings (this is based on a very small sample).

(http://i.imgur.com/z7PdBL2.jpg) 

Mine look like this one  http://www.cmlsupply.com/dispensing-syringes-10cc-10ml-pack-of-10-with-tip-caps/ (http://www.cmlsupply.com/dispensing-syringes-10cc-10ml-pack-of-10-with-tip-caps/)

The plunger I printed fits into the rubber seal and can both push and pull it. You can see the 3D model here

https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/openscad/plunger.stl (https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/openscad/plunger.stl)

After looking at mcmaster page for that heat fit insert, I wonder, the installation tip for soldering iron, I cannot find any information about that, which soldering iron will it fit?
Or did you use other ways of inserting it?

I guess Mcmaster still don't want to ship internationally, I tried last in 2011, but no-go.

Here is some information about those inserts. Since I am merely a hobbyist, take it with a grain of salt.

This is the M3 set the McMaster sells. The M4 is similar. The insertion tip is at the top and the extraction tip is at the bottom. The tip in the center is of the Weller SP40NUS solder iron they sell for this purpose.

(http://i.imgur.com/GeUr87R.jpg)

For insertion I just use a Metcal STTC 125 tip that I happen to have (with a MX500 solder station). It worked just as good. This is a fixed temperature setup.

(http://i.imgur.com/zP16Gly.jpg)

As for finding those inserts, you can search under different names such as 'heatfit threaded inserts' 'ultrasonic threaded inserts' 'heat threaded inserts'  'tapered threaded inserts'. For example

https://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasonic+threaded+inserts&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch (https://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasonic+threaded+inserts&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch)

There is also that kind of symmetrical inserts that you can find on ebay, for example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-20pcs-Brass-Knurl-Nuts-M4-8mm-L-6mm-OD-Metric-Threaded-nuts-insert-round-/221526229763?hash=item3393fe0303 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-20pcs-Brass-Knurl-Nuts-M4-8mm-L-6mm-OD-Metric-Threaded-nuts-insert-round-/221526229763?hash=item3393fe0303)  They are good for the 4 motor mount holes but not for the plunger because the sharp edge at the front end causes the long hole inside the plunger to clog. You can try filing one end of these inserts to make them conic, possibly this will avoid clogging the plunger hole.

Also note that all the dimensions in my 3D models were tweaked to match the parts I have and the tolerances of my 3D RepRap printer so you may need to tweak them.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjM2WDYxMg==/z/0V8AAOSwbqpT8dmk/$_12.JPG)

PS: considering that these inserts are so easy to use and useful for 3D parts, I am surprised that they are not more popular with the 3D make community and available from vendors catering to hobbyists.



Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 07, 2015, 05:32:17 pm
I did a few experiments with the cheap inserts from ebay and they seem to work. Those inserts are designed for molding, not for heat insertion, but tapering one end with a Dremel disk solves the problem. I was able to insert the taperd insert without clogging the plastic hole past the insert which is required for the plunger.

A stock vs. manually tapered inserts (this is a M3, the paste injector uses M4 but it should be the same):
(http://i.imgur.com/efADm19.jpg)


This is how I held the insert while tapering it with a Dremel disk:
(http://i.imgur.com/RqAadFa.jpg)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 07, 2015, 07:36:41 pm
ah, good to know, that the shape is important like that.
Found some that sold better ones on ebay, from US, but it seemed like the shipping was kinda expensive ($28-30 for 50-100 pieces).

But anyway, need to get parts printed also.. that can be expensive.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 07, 2015, 08:53:12 pm
ah, good to know, that the shape is important like that.
Found some that sold better ones on ebay, from US, but it seemed like the shipping was kinda expensive ($28-30 for 50-100 pieces).

But anyway, need to get parts printed also.. that can be expensive.

I can mail you from here the printed parts with the inserts installed. You pay out of pocket mailing cost.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 07, 2015, 09:13:16 pm
ah, good to know, that the shape is important like that.
Found some that sold better ones on ebay, from US, but it seemed like the shipping was kinda expensive ($28-30 for 50-100 pieces).

But anyway, need to get parts printed also.. that can be expensive.

I can mail you from here the printed parts with the inserts installed. You pay out of pocket mailing cost.

Sent you an pm
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on September 07, 2015, 11:02:49 pm
Side note: someone is already trying to sell a stepper driven dispenser on eBay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Syringe-Solder-Paste-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-powered-Lotpaste-Regler-dispenser-/271979673060?hash=item3f534075e4 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Syringe-Solder-Paste-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-powered-Lotpaste-Regler-dispenser-/271979673060?hash=item3f534075e4)
Looks a bit cobbled together though.

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 08, 2015, 04:57:02 am
Side note: someone is already trying to sell a stepper driven dispenser on eBay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Syringe-Solder-Paste-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-powered-Lotpaste-Regler-dispenser-/271979673060?hash=item3f534075e4 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Syringe-Solder-Paste-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-powered-Lotpaste-Regler-dispenser-/271979673060?hash=item3f534075e4)
Looks a bit cobbled together though.

I think it's by this guy. His email address is in the video description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_DvQLY8kM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_DvQLY8kM)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on September 08, 2015, 05:09:25 am
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Precision-Solder-Paste-Auto-Dispenser-controller-CNC-/221866155560?hash=item33a840de28 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Precision-Solder-Paste-Auto-Dispenser-controller-CNC-/221866155560?hash=item33a840de28)
There's this one, too. If I am remembering, right, it is the first that I ever saw, using this sort of design with the stepper motor. The designer put it on a blog/webpage and sold some of his extra proto board order. He used a PICAXE, IIRC. That must have been at least 3-4 years ago.

It's hard to see the one in the video link, but maybe it's the same board, even.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 08, 2015, 05:43:14 am
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Precision-Solder-Paste-Auto-Dispenser-controller-CNC-/221866155560?hash=item33a840de28 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Precision-Solder-Paste-Auto-Dispenser-controller-CNC-/221866155560?hash=item33a840de28)
There's this one, too. If I am remembering, right, it is the first that I ever saw, using this sort of design with the stepper motor. The designer put it on a blog/webpage and sold some of his extra proto board order. He used a PICAXE, IIRC. That must have been at least 3-4 years ago.

It's hard to see the one in the video link, but maybe it's the same board, even.

This is Geir's design which is the inspiration for my design. Main difference are not having the two anti rotation guides and allowing the motor also to pull the plunger.

https://www.tindie.com/products/Dead_Bug_Prototypes/solder-paste-controller/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/Dead_Bug_Prototypes/solder-paste-controller/)

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:384680 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:384680)

And then there is the Pieco. Didn't work well for me and kept oozing badly (no easy way to relive the pressure).

https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/ (https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 08, 2015, 03:37:32 pm
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurK1yjgyEU][/img]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurK1yjgyEU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurK1yjgyEU)

What motor are you using?

I am using 28BYJ-48 which is cheap, easy to mount and works but kind on the bulky side.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 12, 2015, 07:30:16 am
Here is a larger stepper used as dispenser for solder paste.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 20, 2015, 06:01:05 pm
Hello,

The motor itself is not the key to solder dispenser, in order to have sufficient power you need a gearbox which (if selected properly) will give you the required torque & force to move the solder paste trough the needle.  There is no code for motor I use, but it has a build-in gear box with all metal gears with gear ratio 1 turn on piston is about 25 short clicks on controller command-Press.

I hope this will help you.
BR
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 20, 2015, 06:19:02 pm
Hello,

The motor itself is not the key to solder dispenser, in order to have sufficient power you need a gearbox which (if selected properly) will give you the required torque & force to move the solder paste trough the needle.  There is no code for motor I use, but it has a build-in gear box with all metal gears with gear ratio 1 turn on piston is about 25 short clicks on controller command-Press.

I hope this will help you.
BR
Mike

Thanks Mike. Can you share with us where you source that geared motor?  I am using this one, it requires 512 half steps per threaded shaft revolution (which has a 0.7mm pitch).

http://robocraft.ru/files/datasheet/28BYJ-48.pdf (http://robocraft.ru/files/datasheet/28BYJ-48.pdf)

Also, do you generate an individual drop per pad, as the pneumatic devices do, or just a very slow flow that you apply to one pad after the other? Mine does the latter.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 20, 2015, 07:43:54 pm
Larger motor with the same controller PCB test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TASTJ3Lejj0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TASTJ3Lejj0)
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 20, 2015, 08:04:12 pm
A way of getting the solder paste to PCB is as well with
dousing pump system, but a long hose would need to be attached to 0.5mm pencil /needle ....  and the drain of hose from pump to needle would be a problem - unused a lot of paste... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYzm3z8keOM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYzm3z8keOM)

Zapda - see if you can open this eBay link in US where you are and why dont you buy one  :)?
Mike

 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 20, 2015, 08:05:49 pm
Zapta - link here : http://www.ebay.com/itm/271979673060?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271979673060?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 25, 2015, 04:03:13 pm
Zapda - see if you can open this eBay link in US where you are and why dont you buy one  :)?
Mike

Thanks Mike. This is a hobby for me so I prefer to build it. It's part of the fun.

Your way of filling it though the needle end is very interesting. I do it from the wide end and need to deal with air pockets that cause oozing.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 25, 2015, 04:22:05 pm
Hello Zapta,
You have to do it my way (it is not actually my way) but it is the only proper way! Air should NOT enter Syringe Barrel. !! 
See note on my bottom eBay page: and I add it here!
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 25, 2015, 04:38:17 pm
Mike, in my case I start with a jar of paste. Should I first drop into an auxiliary syringe and then pass it to the real one your way?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 25, 2015, 05:27:57 pm
Hello,
Once you open the Jar, I would say it it better to fill up a (spare) larger syringe depending on size of Jar...- this way paste stays in closed barrel and you will be able to use it longer time..  If you will open Jar several times paste losses lifetime due to contact with fresh air.  All depends on paste - the best is to get manufactures data sheet and follow it. Important is as well size of grain of paste, do not try to push larger grains trough small needle size!!  I was reading in this forum as well problems with paste sticking to needle, this can be avoided with a bit of pre-heating of solder paste in CLOSED syringe just before use to 40-60 C in hot water or with hot air gun, hair drier, etc.. You will get much better flow out from  needle and as well it will be much less force required from motor to push the paste out of needle. Some manufacturers prefer storing of paste at abt 8deg. C -12deg C, many people place paste at some lower spot in fridge - this cold paste is definitely needed to be pre-heated before use by any of dispensers...
I hope this helps you,
BR
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 25, 2015, 05:42:35 pm
Here a hand press tool for larger syringes For filling up and other needs - but not for PCB -solder paste application is to large.. for your info:
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on September 25, 2015, 07:46:55 pm
Quote
Mike, in my case I start with a jar of paste. Should I first drop into an auxiliary syringe and then pass it to the real one your way?

What I do for this situation is make a long, pointy "pastry dispenser" with a piece of electrostatic bag. The silver kind with the conductive faraday cage, because it does not stretch. I make this with a heat sealer. Fill with goop, cut off the tip, then squirt this into a large diameter syringe. Tap the nose on the bench until the paste settles flat and any air bubbles come to the surface. The paste is so heavy that this will get rid of practically any air. The bubbles move slowly but surely to the surface. Then put the gasket in * and use that to fill the smaller syringe.
Quote
You have to do it my way (it is not actually my way) but it is the only proper way! Air should NOT enter Syringe Barrel.

You cannot fill an empty syringe from the needle end without introducing air, unless it has the kind of rubber gasket that has the nib on it that comes all the way to the tip of the syringe. And even that is not completely air free in most cases. This is why when you fill a syringe to give an injection, you have to squirt out that air bubble, first. So this method with a thick paste will get a little air at the very back of the syringe, where it will remain for the entire time. IME, having tried it both ways, it is better to fill it from the back end, using a long needle. Especially "hand solder paste" which you can make a little more fluxy than stencil paste.

Unless maybe you are refilling a syringe that is not completely empty, I don't see how filling from the needle end is better. Filling from the back it is pretty easy to get no air, at all. And if you get air in there, you can tap it out before you insert the gasket.

*When you're done filling from the back, insert the gasket with a wire between the gasket and the syringe body to let out the air. When filling from the tip, you could use the wire trick to get out most of the air out from the start. But filling from the back is just as good with the right tools, maybe even better and definitely easier. It's close to perfect. I even bought a luer lock to luer lock adapter to fill syringes tip to tip. It was simply not better, IMO, but then I'm filling new syringes and tossing them when done. With a fancy hand dispenser, I would likely do the same, using new syringe and gasket and tossing when done. Just stick the machined plunger into the back of the next syringe to reload.

 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 25, 2015, 08:25:58 pm
Home made way here ; https://youtu.be/9EAbOFfHvNU
For professional use text under above video..
Br
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on September 25, 2015, 09:57:47 pm
Any air in the tip of the empty syringe is trapped, the way your are filling. This is why I abandoned that method. I dunno what material you use for the white gasket in your video. A regular rubber gasket is easily placed in AFTER filling the syringe. Whether filling from the nose or from the back. You can let all the air out, when you learn the nuances to the wire trick. Even if you do it sloppy, you can easily beat the air that your method introduces.

If for some reason, the wire trick doesn't work with the custom gasket that your device uses, I might try filling the empty syringe with a little bit of flux. Then let the air bubble out before filling it with paste. This will leave a little liquid flux at the back of the syringe, instead of air.

The reason you want to get rid of the bubble at the back end of the syringe is because it's thousands of times more compressible than solder paste. It will act like a spring and will reduce the responsiveness/control of your paste dispenser.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on September 26, 2015, 06:15:45 pm
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?

2. Do people that use those air pressure paste dispensers also have issues with filling and air bubbles (or is it a problem only with motorized dispensers)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on September 26, 2015, 06:55:04 pm
It's not rocket science. When you change your brake fluid, you bleed the line to remove the air. This is the same problem.

Yes, it can be adjusted for to some degree in any system. The system needs pull-back to compensate for the "oversqueeze", and it needs higher speed to compensate for the initial delay. Your brakes can still work with a little air, for example, and your foot will adjust to the new, spongy norm. But for the best control and response time, it will always be better for it to not be there.

I would think most people using compressed air systems are just buying paste in a syringe. I have mucked around with filling syringes to paste by hand. Transferring the paste to a thinner 3mL syringe reduces the pressure needed to move the paste.

Quote
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?
Take your syringe and remove the needle. Put the black twist cap on. Drop/throw it nose-down onto your bench, repeatedly, from a height of a couple inches. If there's air in it, it will be pushed to the back of the syringe where you will see a bubble form.

Don't go crazy with this. Do this long enough, and you will separate your paste. This is the main reason paste goes bad. The solder balls will eventually collect at the bottom, and the liquid flux will rise to the top. It's not a solution. It's a colloidal suspension.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: packetbob on September 26, 2015, 09:43:31 pm
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?

2. Do people that use those air pressure paste dispensers also have issues with filling and air bubbles (or is it a problem only with motorized dispensers)

If you don't see an air bubble between the plunger and the solder paste then it is probably not an issue...
I haven't found air bubbles in the paste to be an issue..
My bubbles are always between the plunger and the paste..
As KL24x mentions it will make the action of the plunger "spongy"....
An air bubble in the syringe affects things regardless of the type of dispenser
As mentioned putting a small wire along side the plunger as you put it into the syringe is probably the best way to avoid the bubbel..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 30, 2015, 04:10:38 pm
Hello,
If the motor on dispenser has a proper gear ratio there will be NO - " action of the plunger "spongy". My motor does not turn beck due to air bubble return pressure, even when you take the 5V power off ! - but if air is inside the air-compressed driven paste syringe when you release the pressure on driving unit - it will (should) return a bit to equalize the pressure...
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 30, 2015, 04:37:40 pm
My version IS USING A STEPPER !! 5V  NOT DC motor!!

With abt. 3cm  stroke you can do plenty of PCBs - it is a lot of paste.... I can say you can discharge almost all from typical syringes that are sold on the market (or sold by Farnell) including Chinese paste.
***It is about 5-7mm missing to discharge all from some syringes.. - you can add in a plastic toothpaste plug in and you will discharge all ... 
New version of dispenser (Dec 2015) has a longer piston and all can be discharged!!

The advantages I see are :
- No noise (no compressor), 5V stepper motor with gearbox are very quiet  :wtf:.
- Easy to handle - small size,
- you can plug down the needle and leave it for next paste to PCB..,
- Simple easy power supply 5V charger + USB cable (you can use USB from computer,...)..
- Cable ties look strange but -this is the only way to keep it simple and low cost, I had previous model with 20ml Al. & holder but costs... and than you are limited with syringe size - diameter and.... problems start...
-   and stepper motor with gearbox is strong /no maintenance needed, ...

I think it is handy all-doe not very fancy looking - but it was made for use not for beauty contest   :-DD

Try it out .... http://www.ebay.com/itm/271979673060?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271979673060?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649)

Larger and nice looking (as well 5V stepper but larger motor+gearbox) I have as well - but not on eBay where I sell this small....  Ask for price to my email if you want larger model for glue or other liquids or pastes -.....

I can say that from my sold Clients I get positive feedback on use; 
"  but until now it has worked without any problems and am very satisfied.
You have done a really good job. Thank you.  and continue with the good work"
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on September 30, 2015, 08:31:03 pm
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on September 30, 2015, 10:17:12 pm
Quote
If the motor on dispenser has a proper gear ratio there will be NO - " action of the plunger "spongy".

When there's a big ole air bubble in the syringe, this is a problem. The first turns of the motor compress the air bubble instead of dispensing paste. Then the pressure will finally ramp up enough for paste to start coming out at speed. Then after the paste is dispensed, the compressed air will slowly squeeze out a little more paste over time. Then when you pick up your dispenser after letting it sit for a minute, there's a little curly worm of semi-dried paste sticking off the end of the needle that doesn't want to stick to a pad and trying to use it will mess up the tip, so you might as well stop and clean off the tip to begin with. A compressed air system fairly effectively eliminates this by discharging all air pressure after dispensing, allowing the gasket to spring back rather than force paste through the needle.

I suppose you can program a stepper to pull back a little when done dispensing. But this has nothing to do with gearing of the motor.  :-// If you want to spit out precision amounts of paste, fast, taking the time to get rid of air is going to be beneficial.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 02, 2015, 08:34:11 pm
Hello,
There are two buttons 1)PRESS and 2)Release  -you can release pressure any time - no need re-programming - already programmed.

It would be a time consuming work to study and make dispenser work automatic (push& a bit return) for all kinds of solder paste available on market and ;
- having in mind different size of OD of syringes,
- size of needles
and temperature of solder paste.... 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 04, 2015, 05:23:58 pm
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?

You could try to use this one : http://www.ebay.de/itm/281737009862?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.de/itm/281737009862?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

there are quite a lot of steppers good quality available in Europe from Minebea - Matsushita Motor Corporation see data sheets enclosed.
I hope this helps! Good luck!
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 06, 2015, 10:04:16 am
Hello,
Here are some videos of 5V DC motor force achieved test..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOf-NvSTjw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOf-NvSTjw)

and here my stepper dispenser motor test :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAvSR6YC-Bs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAvSR6YC-Bs)

You can make conclusions yourself.
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 06, 2015, 10:41:50 am
Quote
You can make conclusions yourself.

We might if we knew what scale the gauge uses - if it's grams it's not awfully impressive   O0
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 06, 2015, 10:47:10 am
scale shows - kg  -

1 kg = 2.2 pounds  (depending where on globe you Google!)
http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/kilograms-to-pounds.htm (http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/kilograms-to-pounds.htm)
 
For some reason notes on video do not show up if using mobile phone..,
Try your computer or You Tube and you should be able to see notes of values added to video..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Jeroen3 on October 06, 2015, 12:04:34 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force)
There is no room for debate in the conversion, since pounds are defined in kilo's.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on October 06, 2015, 12:09:16 pm
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?

But is this the speed they can go?, say, for dispensing, it's ok, but if you pull it back, I would guess one would increase the speed just a tad, or is that no point?
Like, press for dispense, leave the button, and it pull back a tad fast, and press again, it push where it was, and a bit more for leaving the solder? (kinda like simulating the air based ones?)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 06, 2015, 01:55:20 pm
Quote
scale shows - kg

Shows something, but no way can it be read in the photo or video, hence my (light hearted) comment. Worth bearing in mind a lot of stuff isn't obvious to other folks that aren't there.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 06, 2015, 02:04:32 pm
But is this the speed they can go?, say, for dispensing, it's ok, but if you pull it back, I would guess one would increase the speed just a tad, or is that no point?
Like, press for dispense, leave the button, and it pull back a tad fast, and press again, it push where it was, and a bit more for leaving the solder? (kinda like simulating the air based ones?)

I couldn't manage to generate distinct individual drops by push/pull cycles as done with air pressure based devices (I presume, not experience with those). I think the main problem is the free play in the system and the limited speed of the geared motor.

However, I got good results  (second picture here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/msg747923/#msg747923 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/msg747923/#msg747923) ) by creating a very very slow rate of feed and hitting the pads at a fixed rate, leaving the needle longer on larger pads. The motorized syringe and the speed control potentiometer enable a much better control of the flow, especially at very low rates, than pressing by hand.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 06, 2015, 09:29:47 pm
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?
Seams to me servos could be used - metal gear -360 rotation - could be controlled as stepper ...
Metal Gear Continuous Rotation Tower Pro Servo
Product Code : RB-Nex-40 [/b]  by Nexus Robot RB-Nex-40
Metal Gear Continuous Rotation Tower Pro Servo
The 360 Degree Rotation Metal Gear Servo Motor is a double bearing, coreless, metal gear, standard
torque 360 degree rotation servo motor. It is suitable for mobile robot driven motor. Also, it can be use
for wheeled and perfect for medium-sized electric airplanes, helicopter or mini mobile robot kit, etc.
This servo motor comes with a number of various servo horns and arms with mounting hardware.
Specifications
• Working Voltage: 3-7.2V
• Working current: 100m A
• Working torque: 13kg/cm
• Average speed: 53-62 rpm
• Rotation range: 0- 360 degree
• Working Temperature: -30 ~+60 ? ?
• Size: 41.7x19.7x42.9mm
• Weight: 55g
http://www.robotshop.com/en/metal-gear-continuous-rotation-tower-pro-servo.html (http://www.robotshop.com/en/metal-gear-continuous-rotation-tower-pro-servo.html)
http://www.robotshop.com/en/catalogsearch/result/?q=Metal+Gear+Continuous+Rotation&order=stats_sales_order_count&dir=desc (http://www.robotshop.com/en/catalogsearch/result/?q=Metal+Gear+Continuous+Rotation&order=stats_sales_order_count&dir=desc)

GS-5515MG 15kg High Torque Throttle Steering Servo Metal Gears
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-GS-5515MG-15kg-High-Torque-Throttle-Steering-Servo-Metal-Gears-Free-Shipping/251913518476?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33601%26meid%3D30c31434633a4c628bf3edfb50b1a840%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251913518748 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-GS-5515MG-15kg-High-Torque-Throttle-Steering-Servo-Metal-Gears-Free-Shipping/251913518476?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33601%26meid%3D30c31434633a4c628bf3edfb50b1a840%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251913518748)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 06, 2015, 11:23:54 pm
If you are using servos, Servo City has a variety of servo shaft couplers.

https://www.servocity.com/html/servo_shafts___couplers.html (https://www.servocity.com/html/servo_shafts___couplers.html)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on October 07, 2015, 12:54:13 pm
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?
Seams to me servos could be used - metal gear -360 rotation - could be controlled as stepper ...

Crap, I meant stepper of course, not servo ;)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 07, 2015, 01:51:48 pm
Quote
scale shows - kg

Shows something, but no way can it be read in the photo or video, hence my (light hearted) comment. Worth bearing in mind a lot of stuff isn't obvious to other folks that aren't there.
For some reason notes on video do not show up if using mobile phone..,
Try your computer or You Tube and you should be able to see notes of values added to video..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 07, 2015, 02:08:44 pm
Desktop browser. But loaded with privacy options, so possibly non-video overlays from a third-party site wouldn't show. Well, obviously your notes didn't :)

[Later...]
Nope, disabled all that stuff and still no overlays. Oh well.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 10, 2015, 10:18:09 pm
I played today with syringes (motorized and manual) and solder paste and I think that I found the recipe for successful dispensing of solder paste.

The problem I had was that the solder paste didn't stick well to the board, even when using for example fresh from the factory Senju paste. In addition, filling the syringe and removing the air bubbles was a pain.

It seems that applying the paste using a syringe requires a more fluid or thin paste. I mixed a little bit of paste with Kester 981 until it became softer and sticker (try to apply to a PCB with a toothpick, make sure the drop sticks to the PCB) and then filled the syringe (thin paste, it flow well, air bubble stay at the top) and it worked like a charm (I used a very thin needle, maybe #26 or thinner, not sure) and every drop stuck to the board.

This worked well even when applying from the syringe manually, without the motorized dispenser.  The motorized syringe makes it easier to control the flow, especially at a very low rate, but using a regular syringe should be doable.

One paste that doesn't require dilution with flux is QuikChip T5. All the other pastes I used were T3 so am not sure if all the T5 are thiner and sticker out of the box.

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 10, 2015, 11:37:34 pm
Interesting. Thanks for the info, and the testing :)

Presumably there is no problem with having too much flux on the board?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on October 10, 2015, 11:54:08 pm
I don't like being the voice of negativity, but that's where I am. I think hand pasting is a waste of time except in very specific circumstances of very dense component arrangement and/or boards with no soldermask.

Sloppy hand pasting can leave solder balls and potential bridges. Oven reflowing leaves dried out connections that can be more deceptive to inspect. And hand pasting doesn't really save any time in most cases. Rather than pasting each pad, and then placing, you can solder each pad while placing. The biggest added step in hand soldering is the prefluxing of the pads, which takes much less effort and attention than hand pasting. Depending on what tip you use, you may have to flip the board, here or there. But that's quite often a small price to pay for having zero chance of smearing parts, no need to bake the board, and to spend very little time inspecting and reworking boards for tombstoned caps and bridged or crooked IC's. Not to mention having your dispenser tip start going wonky and having to clean it off to get it to work, again, because the slightest crud changes the way the paste dispenses and sticks. This is doubly the case when doing panels/batches of the same board, because you can run through the same part or three on all your boards, then setup all your boards for the next couple of parts without having a minefield of solder paste and pasted parts to pay attention to.

I have the paste. I have the oven. I'll use that stuff with stencils, on occasion. That's about it. I have tried hand pasting, and even when it works, great, it's usually not worth the time/effort.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 11, 2015, 12:01:52 am
Interesting. Thanks for the info, and the testing :)

Presumably there is no problem with having too much flux on the board?

I would think that as long as the paste is not to watery and stays on the pad it's good. There is no such thing as too much flux :)

(I am not an expert, if there is an expert here please chime in)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 11, 2015, 12:03:03 am
Sloppy hand pasting can leave solder balls and potential bridges.

I always inspect and rework if needed, even when using stencils.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on October 11, 2015, 12:15:04 am
This is why even stencils don't save time on many board layouts. When hand soldering SMD, you see a shiny joint that covers the pad, and you're done inspecting. But at least with a stencil you can use dry, hard paste that doesn't run and create solder balls. Without the PNP machine, paste solder is not quite useless. But it's pretty close. It saves a little time in one way, but it creates a lot of extra work and reduces overall reliability, IMO. Inspecting every single component after baking is tedious and can be mistake-prone.

I wish I could get more use out of my reflow oven and solder paste and stencils. But they rarely save me either time or effort, and the results are certainly not an improvement.

In a way, I feel like I was duped into believing that a reflow oven was somehow going to save me time and effort, because other people are doing it. And because of threads like this. And let's face it, most of us "gear heads." For me, I could have saved the money if I hadn't had to just see for myself. I've baked maybe 30-40 boards, since I got it, and caused myself more work, if anything. And I've hand soldered several hundred faster and easier, and with a much lower (nearly nonexistent) error rate.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: packetbob on October 11, 2015, 12:43:14 am
While everyone has different preferences and experiences, I find that using a solder paste dispenser and a reflow oven is way better than trying to hand solder SMD parts. I have not ever bothered with stencils as my boards are typically one offs and I can paste one up (using a dispenser) much quicker than setting up and aligning a stencil.

Though I agree with hand soldering you do see the result immediately. I have never been able to do a decent job (mind you I have shaky hands and slowly worsening eye sight) with it.

Unfortunately the air powered dispensers need compressed air but if you manage to get one setup I would think you will see the value in the reflow oven...

Or not..
YMMV...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on October 11, 2015, 12:55:02 am
I would use stencil and reflow for boards with lots of large, multi pin high thermal capacity connectors, maybe.
Quote
I have never been able to do a decent job
Believe it or not, there's probably a way to get great results even with shaky hands and poor eyesight. If you can place an IC on solder-pasted pads, you can hand-solder any SMD component, easily. But to do it efficiently, you do need to be pretty competent with your left-hand.

The one major advantage of solder pasting is you use only your dominant hand to do 99% of the work. This is also why it's often a waste of time (IMO) for people that can proficiently use both hands and can easily hand-solder.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 11, 2015, 01:13:01 am
Gosh, what variation in techniques. And yet... it seems to be hand solder or paste and oven. Does no-one (else) dob some paste down and then use an iron as they place parts? Not oven involved, no stencil involved, just using paste instead of solder wire.

For that kind of application these applicators seem ideal, although I guess stencils would work too (but who wants to pay for, or make, or even wait for, a stencil for a one-off board).
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 11, 2015, 01:19:16 am
For that kind of application these applicators seem ideal, although I guess stencils would work too (but who wants to pay for, or make, or even wait for, a stencil for a one-off board).

I am a hobbyist so whatever I like at the moment is ideal for me :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: packetbob on October 11, 2015, 01:26:34 am
Gosh, what variation in techniques. And yet... it seems to be hand solder or paste and oven. Does no-one (else) dob some paste down and then use an iron as they place parts? Not oven involved, no stencil involved, just using paste instead of solder wire.

For that kind of application these applicators seem ideal, although I guess stencils would work too (but who wants to pay for, or make, or even wait for, a stencil for a one-off board).

Actually I have used this method and probably had better luck than by using regular solder..
There are many ways to get the job done and whatever works is the best way...

The earlier poster mentioned they felt duped in a way by getting a reflow oven (I'm sure this sounds worse than he may have really felt) and trying stencils. I hope he has tried a paste dispenser before giving up on the reflow oven (Again this may not be his intention, just my interpretation of his note).
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 11, 2015, 01:31:39 am
The earlier poster mentioned they felt duped in a way by getting a reflow oven (I'm sure this sounds worse than he may have really felt) and trying stencils. I hope he has tried a paste dispenser before giving up on the reflow oven (Again this may not be his intention, just my interpretation of his note).

I have had very good results with stencils and reflow oven but got tired of cleaning the stencil, squeegee and jig.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on October 11, 2015, 02:41:25 am
Quote
Does no-one (else) dob some paste down and then use an iron as they place parts? Not oven involved, no stencil involved, just using paste instead of solder wire.
Have definitely tried this. It was fun and easy, but unless I'm super meticulous, it leaves unflowed solder paste under parts and behind the pins! And instead of applying solder paste, you can just apply flux, alone. Then touch the bare iron to the pins. Unlike solder paste, you can't "miss" or smudge or get unflowed paste anywhere with the flux and iron tip. There are soldering iron tips that are made to hold a big reservoir of solder, so applying paste solder isn't necessary, at all. All you have to do is pick up solder on the tip of the iron as you pick up the next part (or every several parts, as the case may be). Heating the joint with the iron and applying the solder wire directly to the joint may be "textbook," but that textbook was written in the 80's for use with through hole, oxidized parts, and apparently drag-soldering is plain wrong by these rules. When I do SMD soldering, "solder wire" isn't even part of the equation. I could just as well dip the tip into a pot of molten solder or touch a bit of huge 0.062" wire, or I could use the method which I happen to be currently using, which is to pick up solder from my combined cut tape part holder + "solder pickup and tip cleaning station," where I solder lengths of solder wire over a surface of bare FR-4, which collects excess flux and also cleans/rewets the tip at a touch. (If I need to remove excess solder from the tip for a drag-solder operation, I can touch the tip to the fluxy surface to rewet it and jab the iron in the air to fling the excess solder off onto this board, where I can pick up the solder balls, later). Pick up part, pick up more solder as necessary, as soon as part is lined up, jab, jab, jab, done. Same thing as placing paste, but you can't miss.

Quote
I hope he has tried a paste dispenser before giving up on the reflow oven (Again this may not be his intention, just my interpretation of his note).
I have used 3ml syringes, and tapered plastic needles, which take less pressure to dispense. Dispensing is not a problem. The problem is that it still doesn't save any time or effort for me, personally. In some cases, I fully agree that it could be preferable to stencil-pasting, particularly for low part counts or smaller boards. And of course for one-offs. But it will still be a fairly rare case where I would rather use any kind of paste solder/reflow vs regular hand-soldering.

I have said it before, and I am pretty sure I will follow though. Next time I order enough boards to justify a stencil, I will leave all multi-leaded IC's off the paste layer, because they are the parts that cause me the most egregious issues with paste/reflow, stencil or by hand.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 11, 2015, 08:57:13 am
Quote
got tired of cleaning the stencil, squeegee and jig

Yes, that's basically what puts me off too, and the waste of paste. It would be OK if it's being done often, like every day or so.

Quote
it leaves unflowed solder paste under parts and behind the pins!

Ah, yes, I've had that. The choice of paste makes a big difference. I think the problem there is the solder melts around the iron and contracts, leaving a ring of not-yet-melted balls. Ideally, they need to be sucked in as the bulk melts, so maybe it's a surface tension vs flux tackiness issue.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: cprrw132 on October 11, 2015, 10:18:03 am
 G'day Forum members  & visitors  I had the same requirement for a applicator Gun .
 What i came up with was this cockroach gel applicator gun .
  I did have to make a small tin plate to adapt the Soldering flux Syringe to the gun w/- the addition of a needle from a printer ink cartridge kit.
Look up www.easypestsupplies.com.au (http://www.easypestsupplies.com.au) then cockroach  that leads you to the applicator gun  for Au$12.95 $10.00 freight .
 I now have 2 one I use for pin point flux placement the other  i use for applying  Petroleum jelly into bearings .
  Hope this helps .
 JOHN .
 CPR
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 11, 2015, 12:52:23 pm
I get frustrated using my hand....
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Jeroen3 on October 11, 2015, 01:56:34 pm
Put in less paste and get less viscose paste.
This one is very soft and has a low temperature to solder very easily using hot air.
http://nl.farnell.com/edsyn/cr44/solder-paste-62-36-2-182-deg-10g/dp/876768 (http://nl.farnell.com/edsyn/cr44/solder-paste-62-36-2-182-deg-10g/dp/876768)

You can populate the entire board with simple components (0805's, SOT-23's and such large pitch stuff) and than use one of those Bosch hot air guns (with digital control) to solder the board.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 11, 2015, 02:40:55 pm
Thanks nanofrog. They have several tip models. Which one do you recommend for SMD work?
I only have the BON-102 (https://www.all-spec.com/products/BON-102-1.html) (small fine point nylon brush), so I use it for everything. The brush tip truly does makes a very fine point when it's wet, so it's very nice for SMD work IME (you'll really appreciate it when drag soldering  ;)). Holds more than enough flux for PTH too (it's fine point, but the brush itself isn't micro sized, so can hold a decent amount of flux).

Prior to trying the Bonkote, I was just dipping inexpensive artist brushes into a tiny well of flux in a porcelain spot plate or using a needle bottle. Found the brush gave the most control, and I figure the brush versions will outlast the felt tips (assuming the felt used is equivalent). And all of it is less expensive than the disposable pens.  :-+

(http://i.imgur.com/JCRBN9e.jpg) (http://imgur.com/JCRBN9e)

What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

So far, the best results I got were with the 835 and a small plastic bottle with a thin needle.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on October 11, 2015, 03:04:03 pm
What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

So far, the best results I got were with the 835 and a small plastic bottle with a thin needle.
I use both Kester 186 & 1544 in both the brush pen and a needle bottle.

Regarding the MG Chemicals 835, try thinning it out just a bit with some alcohol (or acetone; may have to do this from time to time due to evaporation).
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 11, 2015, 05:42:34 pm
I do it my way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4FD3tp3ck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4FD3tp3ck)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 11, 2015, 06:14:44 pm
and than I fry my PCB's in my TFT Teensy 3.1 controlled Toy:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsGrjTDY88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsGrjTDY88)

Just for fun and joy...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 11, 2015, 06:18:33 pm
What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

So far, the best results I got were with the 835 and a small plastic bottle with a thin needle.
I use both Kester 186 & 1544 in both the brush pen and a needle bottle.

Regarding the MG Chemicals 835, try thinning it out just a bit with some alcohol (or acetone; may have to do this from time to time due to evaporation).

Thanks, I will try these options.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 11, 2015, 06:21:52 pm
Hair Straightener - used as Hot Plate for reflow soldering of 0.4mm pitch socket -hard  to see- using micrpskope to do  the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIWvlftMHyk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIWvlftMHyk)
Narrow pitch Panasonic socket A4S Series, (0.4mm pitch), Recommended for board-to-FPC connections of mobile equipment, such as cellular phones, smart phones, laptops, portable music players...

It can be done!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 11, 2015, 06:33:46 pm

What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

I used LOCTITE RA 10 SN62BAS86 8K  knwn as well as SN62RA10BAS86LDU 25G CART for video, but in other videos I used earlier I had Chinese paste + paste out of Jar.. Sn63/P37 is the most used cheep stuff ..
As well ALPHA CL-78 (62Sn/36Pb 2Ag.... ) I test all without pre-heating... no problems..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 12, 2015, 02:46:56 am
and than I fry my PCB's in my TFT Teensy 3.1 controlled Toy:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsGrjTDY88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsGrjTDY88)

Just for fun and joy...

That's a very nice setup. The touch screen shows an image of a PCB, is it the one inside? Where did you place the camera?

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 12, 2015, 06:10:26 am
Holding iPhone in my hand, all video I do with iPhone, easy to send to You Tube and Avto converting to Web.
Only above video of 0.4 connector was done with TopView software and zoom lens...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 12, 2015, 05:59:47 pm


I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

You might need to re-calculate your dispenser output from needle tip / see table enclosed of min-max discharge at xx um :

You can see some more needles I used for test on my YouTube for reference: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbk02zm_kFNXvGvHPFDOEZw?view_as=public (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbk02zm_kFNXvGvHPFDOEZw?view_as=public)

I could add a speed adjustment trimmer on my dispenser -but I see no need, for now..

BR
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on October 12, 2015, 06:30:19 pm
That's a very nice setup. The touch screen shows an image of a PCB, is it the one inside? Where did you place the camera?
My understanding is that this is just a static pic of some PCB and has nothing to do with the PCB in the oven. There a temperature curves drawn on top of that background which is nice and all, but the whole touchscreen thing seems to be a bit of a gimmick.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 12, 2015, 07:13:37 pm
Correct - just a background of graph image - not the screen shot of PCB which is in reflow...
Sorry I did not read the complete question..,
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 12, 2015, 09:56:26 pm
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

The dispenser I used.
(http://i.imgur.com/sjrs2bI.jpg)

The PCB after applying the solder paste.
(http://i.imgur.com/kWC0upi.jpg)


The working PCB after reflowing in an oven and cleaning. No rework whatsoever. In retrospect I should have place more paste, some of the solder joints seem to be low on solder. Will remember it next time.
(http://i.imgur.com/d6GF0k1.jpg)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 13, 2015, 07:41:39 am
Zapta?
How do you use this two "Push" and "Pull" buttons while applying paste and holding dispenser with one hand?
Can you shoot a Video in near future to see your toy in action?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on October 13, 2015, 08:32:21 am
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

Where did you get the boards made?, I tried to upload the zipfile from your github to OshPark, but it didn't like it, complained about an missing outline file, got this log:

Quote
Note: Processing paste_injector_gerbers_20151010_01.zip as generic ZIP file
Failed: I can't find a board outline file.

I thought it was osh based on the color of your board ;)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 13, 2015, 10:26:33 am
Zapta?
How do you use this two "Push" and "Pull" buttons while applying paste and holding dispenser with one hand?
Can you shoot a Video in near future to see your toy in action?

I use two hands. That's why taking videos is difficult. :)

One controls the needle and the other controls the button.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 13, 2015, 10:41:30 am
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

Where did you get the boards made?, I tried to upload the zipfile from your github to OshPark, but it didn't like it, complained about an missing outline file, got this log:

Quote
Note: Processing paste_injector_gerbers_20151010_01.zip as generic ZIP file
Failed: I can't find a board outline file.

I thought it was osh based on the color of your board ;)

I ordered the boards in the picture from oshpark by uploading the eagle .brd file.

I then modified the design and ordered from elecrow using the .zip file, still waiting for it.

The new design is identical to the old one but has different placement for better ergonomic. For example, the Push Button is on the  center line of the syringe for better stability.

The github repository also contains the binary image that include the bootloader and the program. You need to program it via the ISP pads (I am using pogo pins adapter from sparkfun).

Once you programs the bootloader, if you want also to modify the program using the arduino IDE, you need to solder a the ftdi header and use a sparkfun FTDI Basic adapter or similar. The board looks to the IDE as an Arduion Mini Pro.

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on October 13, 2015, 11:26:25 am
I ordered the boards in the picture from oshpark by uploading the eagle .brd file.

Oh, I can upload brd files directly?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 13, 2015, 01:16:33 pm
I ordered the boards in the picture from oshpark by uploading the eagle .brd file.

Oh, I can upload brd files directly?

To oshpark, yes. This is how I always order from them. 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on October 13, 2015, 02:21:39 pm
Oh, I can upload brd files directly?
To oshpark, yes. This is how I always order from them.

It worked very fine, much better experience than when I ordered from seeedstudio, also very nice to get an render of everything.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 15, 2015, 04:23:50 am
Mike, just watched your "Smaller needle paste application 5V USB" video (love the music).

Like you, I also kind of tap the needle against the pad to get the pad stick. However, I found that I get better results if the end of the needle is flat against the PCB. That is, with a straight needle I hold the syringe vertical against the board.

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 15, 2015, 04:43:02 am
Just stumbled upon this video. It's a DIY air pressure based solder paste applicator (no vacuum). It works very well, much faster and well defined drop than my motorized dispenser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpgOYNB1Kng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpgOYNB1Kng)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 16, 2015, 07:46:29 pm
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

The dispenser I used.
(http://i.imgur.com/sjrs2bI.jpg)

The PCB after applying the solder paste.
(http://i.imgur.com/kWC0upi.jpg)

Zapta - you may want to add this 2 Key Matrix DIY Flat Membrane Switch Control Keypad http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x40-DC-12V-1x2-2-Key-Matrix-DIY-Flat-Membrane-Switch-Control-Keypad-/271967984386?hash=item3f528e1b02:g:OssAAOSwxH1UGp9W (http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x40-DC-12V-1x2-2-Key-Matrix-DIY-Flat-Membrane-Switch-Control-Keypad-/271967984386?hash=item3f528e1b02:g:OssAAOSwxH1UGp9W) to your toy ??   
and invite me for a drink !?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 17, 2015, 06:05:39 pm
Looking at your PCB - and Eagle .sch/brd file seams polarity is swapped in respect to standard USB cable connection? 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 18, 2015, 04:04:53 pm

Zapta - you may want to add this 2 Key Matrix DIY Flat Membrane Switch Control Keypad http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x40-DC-12V-1x2-2-Key-Matrix-DIY-Flat-Membrane-Switch-Control-Keypad-/271967984386?hash=item3f528e1b02:g:OssAAOSwxH1UGp9W (http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x40-DC-12V-1x2-2-Key-Matrix-DIY-Flat-Membrane-Switch-Control-Keypad-/271967984386?hash=item3f528e1b02:g:OssAAOSwxH1UGp9W) to your toy ??   
and invite me for a drink !?

Thanks Mike, I actually like having the button away from the tip, for better stability. Did something similar with my vacuums manual pick and place, I control it with a pedal rather than a release hole near the tip.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 18, 2015, 04:07:54 pm
Looking at your PCB - and Eagle .sch/brd file seams polarity is swapped in respect to standard USB cable connection?

The polarity and the footprint should match the USB connector listed in the BOM. If it doesn't, please let me know.  USB connectors comes with two 'polarities' or order of of the SMD pads.

https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/eagle/paste_injector_bom.csv
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 18, 2015, 05:07:31 pm
Looking at your PCB - and Eagle .sch/brd file seams polarity is swapped in respect to standard USB cable connection?

The polarity and the footprint should match the USB connector listed in the BOM. If it doesn't, please let me know.  USB connectors comes with two 'polarities' or order of of the SMD pads.

https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/eagle/paste_injector_bom.csv
Dear Zapta,
Polarity of USB cable  is standard one.
Where did you pick  up Eagle Cad library file - for this USB connector on your PCB????  I checked with MOLLEX and to me it seams wrong - Micro USB connector   (J1   H11611CT-ND   ZX62RD-AB-5P8)    the pads should be  swapped.
See enclosed Eagle Cad - power is highlighted on screenshot enclosed. 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 18, 2015, 06:05:03 pm
It looks right to me. See this datasheet:

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/185/ed_ZX_20140804-461411.pdf (http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/185/ed_ZX_20140804-461411.pdf)

Note that the part reference is 'RD', which means 'reverser top mount'. The pattern on page 5 of the datasheet is applicable, I think.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 18, 2015, 07:43:56 pm
Where did you pick  up Eagle Cad library file - for this USB connector on your PCB????

I created it myself based on the datasheet of the connector specified in the BOM.

Used the same footprint and connector in previous projects (including data lines) with no problem.

I think the one in the BOM is Hiroshi, not the Molex you looked at.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 18, 2015, 08:31:01 pm
It is not important Mollex or XY - standard USB cable must work with it and in your case it will  NOT - it will smoke  :-DMM.
see this link and compare your Eagle cad library USB with this one from here :  https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035) and open Eagle cad file and paste it to your PCB!!
Documents:

Schematic
Eagle Files
GitHub

Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 18, 2015, 08:49:39 pm
Quote
see this link and compare your Eagle cad library USB with this one from here :  https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035)

Mike, that's a totally different manufacturer. All that matters for the cable is that the pins are the right order for the orientation of the socket. The part that Zapta uses is reversed so that you can mount it on top of the PCB and still have the cable oriented properly (to solve that problem where cables are 'upside down' on some phones, for instance).

Here:
(http://i.imgur.com/JKmG3Ur.png)


I suggest you  look at the actual datasheet for that actual part from the actual manufacturer, and then you'll see that Zapta's layout is correct. Indeed, his use in other products without the smoke escaping suggets that he knows wtf he is doing with this, doesn't it?

I've attached the relevant diagram from the datasheet (I made a mistake before - it is page 7 rather than 5, but the  footprint is the same anyway). Maybe you could take a look at that before insisting it is something else?

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 18, 2015, 09:13:06 pm
Ok , noted, better I am wrong than PCB !!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 18, 2015, 10:02:12 pm
Ok , noted, better I am wrong than PCB !!

Mike and anybody else, if the USB connector in the BOM is hard to get or confusing, feel free to change and send me a github pull request (and having a nice manual routing if you feel like).

EDIT:  in this project I am using the micro USB connector Digikey 609-4616-1-ND (different physical footprint) which has the 'other' orientation.

https://github.com/zapta/arm/tree/master/pro-mini/board

In any case, the USB connector should have through hole mounting tab, otherwise the SMD pads peels easily.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 19, 2015, 08:00:10 am
You can download Hirose lib from this link: https://github.com/chiengineer/Eagle-Libraries/blob/11e4a75bc9876ab7e70823fd5aa7b1fb6786185f/Connectors/con-hirose.lbr
and use.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 19, 2015, 11:13:31 am
and this SMD type of USB here enclosed. (rename ending .txt to .lib)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: neslekkim on October 19, 2015, 12:03:25 pm
agh, already ordered this board from oshpark, but didn't know that an "special" usb connector was used here, will make sure to order the correct one :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 19, 2015, 03:26:32 pm
You can download Hirose lib from this link: https://github.com/chiengineer/Eagle-Libraries/blob/11e4a75bc9876ab7e70823fd5aa7b1fb6786185f/Connectors/con-hirose.lbr
and use.

Thanks Mike. I can see a footprint for ZX62R-B-5P but it doesn't have through holes or vias, just SMD peels. From my experience, this will peel easily. My footprint has holes but I still solder it as an SMD part with reflow.

BTW, is there a standard for the orientation of the USB cable connector in relation to the PCB or the outer enclosure of the device? That is, "this side need to be 'up'"?  I had cell phones with both orientation. Personally I prefer the narrow side of the micro usb connector to  be up in the normal orientation of the device.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 05:38:43 pm
Hello - SEE WIKI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB
See numbering of pins ;
See Eagle which shows this pins ( if enabled in settings of Eagle !!)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 06:03:22 pm
And this table of WIKI standard - Green!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 20, 2015, 06:29:01 pm
What's the conclusion Mike, that it doesn't work out that it works but doesn't comply with some part of the USB standard?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 07:14:59 pm
Test it - you have the cable and the connector - take some other cable and measure + / - on connector pins.. to make sure it woks with different standard cables..
USB or Universal Serial Bus standard was designed in the mid 1990 to replace old standards like serial or parallel ports.  In our days the USB connector can be found in keyboards, printers, digital cameras, flash drives, external hard drives and almost all peripheral digital equipment.

Until now three USB standards were released:

–          USB 1 released in 1996 with speeds of 1.5 Mbps for Low-Bandwidth and 12 Mbps for High-Bandwidth;

–          USB 2.0 release in 2000 is the most used usb port at the moment at supports a maximum speed of 480 Mbps;

–          USB 3.0 released in 2008 in the latest standard who can support speed up to 5Gbps.

There are 7 USB connector types: type A, type B, Mini-A, Mini-B, Micro-A,Micro-B and Micro-AB. Type A and B has 4 pins, Mini and Micro A and B has 5 pin usb pinout.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 07:17:42 pm
Printout -look here
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 07:41:08 pm
Zapta see this - good view : https://www.pololu.com/product/2592 (https://www.pololu.com/product/2592)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 07:42:36 pm
DIGI - shows your connector like this:
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 20, 2015, 08:09:44 pm
Zapta see this - good view : https://www.pololu.com/product/2592 (https://www.pololu.com/product/2592)

Mike, what are you showing? I am somewhat confused since we know Zapta's original connector has the right footprint, is wired correctly and conforms to all USB standards. Are you  showing a different connector that he should switch to or what?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 20, 2015, 08:25:59 pm
The question from Zapta was ;
BTW, is there a standard for the orientation of the USB cable connector in relation to the PCB or the outer enclosure of the device? That is, "this side need to be 'up'"?...,
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 20, 2015, 08:39:13 pm
The question from Zapta was ;
BTW, is there a standard for the orientation of the USB cable connector in relation to the PCB or the outer enclosure of the device? That is, "this side need to be 'up'"?...,

Yes. It is as shown in the photo I posted before:

(http://i.imgur.com/JKmG3Ur.png)

The USB logo on the connector should be 'up'. You put the standard or reverse connector on the PCB to do that (so the curved part of the connector profile is 'up'). As I noted, particularly on phones and tablets, where the component side of the PCB may be screen side or non-screen side, you often find the connector upside down in relation to the body. The designer should have used the reverse connectors.

An example of the 'wrong' connector being used is the Hudl. In the photo below, the bottom item is the Hudl tablet and the top one is an LG 40 phone.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 21, 2015, 09:31:09 pm
Zapta - here more lib - Hirose : http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-search?text=Hirose+usb&type=dev%2Cpkg%2Csym&lib=usr%2Cstd&desc=1 (http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-search?text=Hirose+usb&type=dev%2Cpkg%2Csym&lib=usr%2Cstd&desc=1)

And this is the one you are using in part list with trugh holes in pcb ?
http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-show-library?type=usr&id=1012211140. (http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-show-library?type=usr&id=1012211140.)  ?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on October 28, 2015, 01:53:29 pm
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?

Found this  web - good choice in US and Europe!
http://en.nanotec.com/products/169-sp10-sp55-permanent-magnet-stepper-motors/ (http://en.nanotec.com/products/169-sp10-sp55-permanent-magnet-stepper-motors/)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on October 31, 2015, 05:33:43 am
Zapta - here more lib - Hirose : http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-search?text=Hirose+usb&type=dev%2Cpkg%2Csym&lib=usr%2Cstd&desc=1 (http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-search?text=Hirose+usb&type=dev%2Cpkg%2Csym&lib=usr%2Cstd&desc=1)

And this is the one you are using in part list with trugh holes in pcb ?
http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-show-library?type=usr&id=1012211140. (http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-show-library?type=usr&id=1012211140.)  ?

Thanks Mike, I will take a look.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on November 09, 2015, 05:10:30 pm
I just posted the Arduino Motorized SMT Solder Paste Dispenser here:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1119914 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1119914)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 09, 2015, 06:46:39 pm
Nice. And thanks  :-+
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 09, 2015, 09:16:05 pm
Well done Zapta,

I was not sleeping much - new V2 of my unit should be out soon, here the draft of improvements
- supporting structure / fixing of stepper motor will be added,
- increased stroke, 2 location fixing,.. (will be working 100 % in both directions),
- total length extended a bit
and some more exciting ideas that might get into this new version..

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 15, 2015, 08:46:03 pm
Hello,
I just placed new version of dispenser on eBay Germany. Anyone interested - here is the link: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Solder-Paste-Liquid-applicator-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272045911507?hash=item3f57332dd3:g:TfAAAOSwQoFWOeZn (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Solder-Paste-Liquid-applicator-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272045911507?hash=item3f57332dd3:g:TfAAAOSwQoFWOeZn)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 16, 2015, 08:29:00 am
New Link to eBay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/SMT-Solder-Paste-Glue-Liquid-Dispenser-Syrage-DC5V-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272054355052?hash=item3f57b4046c:g:s0IAAOSwxN5WUwsk (http://www.ebay.de/itm/SMT-Solder-Paste-Glue-Liquid-Dispenser-Syrage-DC5V-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272054355052?hash=item3f57b4046c:g:s0IAAOSwxN5WUwsk)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 23, 2015, 01:22:56 pm
A bit updated photos for perusal and comments are welcome !
More here;
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SMT-Solder-Paste-Glue-Liquid-Dispenser-Syrage-DC5V-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272054355052?hash=item3f57b4046c:g:s0IAAOSwxN5WUwsk (http://www.ebay.de/itm/SMT-Solder-Paste-Glue-Liquid-Dispenser-Syrage-DC5V-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272054355052?hash=item3f57b4046c:g:s0IAAOSwxN5WUwsk)
Here is a procedure we worked-out with one of my German Client: 
I quote the email text: 
"I didn't pre-heat the solder paste, just took it out of the fridge and let it rest for some hours at room temperature. I built up pressure until some paste came out of the needle and then released the pressure. First I tried pressing and instantly releasing again, but it was quite hard to get the right amount of paste on the pads.... It was a success with pressing and not releasing after. While the paste was slowly flowing I just did pad after pad and always got the right amount. I tried different needles and it worked even with really narrow ones. Did some DFNs, TQFPs, SSOPs, and many 0603s. Worked really neat, just had to remind me to build new pressure once in a while :)
I like the dispenser and I'm happy to finally leave my toothpick method behind me :)  ""
Best regards,
xxxxxxxxx

So it is working well ...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 23, 2015, 01:43:25 pm
Quote
While the paste was slowly flowing I just did pad after pad and

That description - from getting it out of the fridge to putting it away again - is exactly how I've been doing it by hand. My expectation is that a gizmo like yours would make the process better - quicker, or more accurate, or... well, something! Being able to pause between pads, for instance (which implies a button stab delivers a small and distinct amount, then nothing). Otherwise I am not sure why I would want to buy this and have a load more training hassles, plus ongoing maintenance, just to be able to do what I can do without it.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 24, 2015, 02:31:43 pm
All commands are in your hand, You can chose smaller drops - use appropriate needle, /  You can release pressure - and take a coffee brake and than continue and there is almost no maintenance needed... Surly it is mauch faster than pressing paste out of syringe with your hand finger. 
 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 24, 2015, 02:45:08 pm
Quote
Surly it is mauch faster than pressing paste out of syringe with your hand finger

I would have thought so. No, 'hoped so'. But the post I references seems to suggest not, so I don't actually know, hence why I made the comment :)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on November 24, 2015, 02:55:26 pm
That description - from getting it out of the fridge to putting it away again - is exactly how I've been doing it by hand. My expectation is that a gizmo like yours would make the process better - quicker, or more accurate, or... well, something!

I am using a similar motorized arrangement and I think it's more accurate and faster than pressing by hand.

The trick is to adjust the push speed such that it creates a very slow and consistent flow out of the needle (I am using #22), I didn't measure it but around 0.5mm/sec (I am guessing here). Then you go from pad to pad and tap them with the tip of the needle, tapping larger pads a few times as needed.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 24, 2015, 03:18:43 pm
Quote
The trick is to...

OK. I just envisioned it as placing discrete blobs per button press. I accept that might be wishful thinking, but that kind of thing is what drives someone to make stuff :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on November 24, 2015, 03:35:28 pm
Quote
The trick is to...

OK. I just envisioned it as placing discrete blobs per button press. I accept that might be wishful thinking, but that kind of thing is what drives someone to make stuff :)

The videos I saw of pneumatic dispenser show them placing beautiful individual drops of paste. The motorized one are much slower because of the gear ratio and the free play in the system so I don't think that individual drops are possible.

I am still holding my breath for Robenz's solution (hint) ;-)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 24, 2015, 06:05:15 pm
What Does Robenz Stand For ?? - Link please if possible ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/60/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/60/)   ??
Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on November 24, 2015, 06:29:32 pm
What Does Robenz Stand For ?? - Link please if possible ?
robrenz (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=6155) is another member who's a top notch machinist.   :-+ He's come up with some amazing stuff; browse his posts and you'll see what we're on about.  ;)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on November 24, 2015, 06:30:54 pm
What Does Robenz Stand For ?? - Link please if possible ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/60/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/60/)   ??
Thanks,
Mike

He is a member here with mechanical design experience,. He mentioned that he may look for a compact solution that doesn't require air pressure supply
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on November 24, 2015, 09:24:27 pm
Quote
Otherwise I am not sure why I would want to buy this
Accuracy. And don't tell me your thumb never gets tired. :

If I wanted to paste by hand, I would probably try one of these. But even watching the compressed air variety in action, I can't imagine getting much utility out of dotting every pad by hand.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 25, 2015, 04:42:20 am
Quote
Accuracy. And don't tell me your thumb never gets tired.

I don't see there is a change in accuracy, but my thumb can get tired. On the other hand, I use raw paste and not the diluted stuff recommended for these, so perhaps if I used that then my thumb would be OK.

I think it would likely be a step forward, but not quite the quantum leap I dream of :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on November 25, 2015, 04:47:34 am
I think it would likely be a step forward, but not quite the quantum leap I dream of :)

Regardless, it's fun to build it :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 26, 2015, 08:24:35 pm
I think it would likely be a step forward, but not quite the quantum leap I dream of :)
What more that this here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4FD3tp3ck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP4FD3tp3ck)   
are you looking for ??
0.41 mm EU/ 27 gauge US size metal needle used  for solder paste application..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: KL27x on November 26, 2015, 09:00:31 pm
Ahh, love at first paste. This is the most emotional soldering video I have seen in a long while. :)

Is this Sinatra "My Way?"* And why does Youtube not edit out your music? Do you pay royalties for bringing us this entertainment?

*Neermind. I thought something sounded familiar. Post #150
Quote
I do it my way:

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: FireFlower on November 26, 2015, 10:02:10 pm
That USB syringe dispenser seems to  be interesting to hook up with CNC machine to paste boards cheap :D
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on November 26, 2015, 11:00:02 pm
No output on that model ..
This one might be better for CNC but its still under development & testing ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXm7F9XZ23s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXm7F9XZ23s)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on November 26, 2015, 11:56:49 pm
Ahh, love at first paste. This is the most emotional soldering video I have seen in a long while. :)

Is this Sinatra "My Way?"* And why does Youtube not edit out your music? Do you pay royalties for bringing us this entertainment?

Not to mention that Mike is playing it with one hand while applying paste with the other.  Awesome.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 01, 2015, 11:47:44 am
I came across this web page - might be interesting to some of you guys: http://www.diyouware.com/node/174 (http://www.diyouware.com/node/174)
and this Change unipolar 28BYJ-48 to bipolar stepper motor  http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html (http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html)
might be useful to get more power/torque out unipolar stepper ....
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 11, 2015, 07:23:24 pm
Nice project and good price - http://xbrax.com/PG_Eshop/search_acc.asp?PG_lng=GB&s=2&cat=00060&ricerca=PREXO (http://xbrax.com/PG_Eshop/search_acc.asp?PG_lng=GB&s=2&cat=00060&ricerca=PREXO)
Linear Drive:  AIR FREE UNITS exist and are in use: 
 http://www.fishmancorp.com/smartdispenser/airfree-technology/ (http://www.fishmancorp.com/smartdispenser/airfree-technology/)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: peekay on December 14, 2015, 09:12:22 pm
I purchased a USB Extruder Solder Paste Dispenser from the Mike Store on Tindie.com.

I received the dispenser after some delays in Canadian customs (the seller offered AMAZING support). The unit is solid and well built and fits well in the hand. I bought the dispenser for my first SMD project so I had high expectations and I was not disappointed. It took a few tries getting used to the operation of the buttons, getting the paste warm enough and choosing the correct dispensing needle. In 15 mins I was dispensing paste on 0402 and bigger pads without any problems (except for my eyesight!). This unit is now one of my go-to tools for building my small-run prototype SMD boards. I received the "older" version of the dispenser and the newest model looks to be even better. I highly recommend this unit.

 :)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 15, 2015, 12:37:19 pm
Thanks Peekay - Im glad my dispenser works great for you!!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 15, 2015, 05:16:34 pm
Hello all - here I found interesting approach with lots of reality incorporated in this SmartDispenser - NO AIR !!
http://gentec-benelux.com/airfree/ (http://gentec-benelux.com/airfree/) 

LDS9000 et SmartDispenser

Sturdy precision machined screw and precision motor assure zero backlash during operation which eliminates any leak in the hydraulic line chance of pressure loss.
The stepper motor is directly engaged with the screw eliminating lags and backlash, and is preventing any chance of pressure loss.
Patented Precision machined Piston Stabilizer holds the piston straight in the reservoir, eliminating any chance of pressure loss.
PosiLok™ Quick Release threaded hub and piston allow zero slippage between the piston and drive rod, eliminating any chance of pressure loss.
PosiLok™ Quick Release threaded hub and piston allow zero slippage between the piston and drive rod, eliminating any chance of pressure loss.
NoFlex™ Linear Drive Technology gives you the accurate and repeatable method of positive displacement you want without the headache of pneumatic systems. There is no need to flush chambers or valves. Formulations stay untouched in safe, silicone-free barrel reservoirs with this revolutionary new system. You can change fluids or volumes with ease. Unlike AirPulse™ machines, this intelligent dispensing system knows the barrel size, volume and the dispense rate. The result: you get a process control that is unachievable with AirPulse™ systems. profitability.

SmartDispenser™ uses air-free, linear-drive dispense technology to achieve the highest repeatability when dispensing assembly fluids. This technology allows manufacturers to establish one dispense program globally, with no change to fluid deposits. By standardizing dispense programs per product, manufacturers reduce the cost of product validation. The technology also eliminates fluid waste, rework, rejects, and costly air compressors, thus maximizing
By integrating the Windows 7 platform into its technology, each SmartDispenser™ system can be networked to a desktop, laptop, smartphone, or another SmartDispenser™. This technology gives you the ability to monitor live video feeds and real time production data, and enables.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on December 15, 2015, 05:27:46 pm
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 15, 2015, 05:44:41 pm
It is for sure not in price range of my Dispenser, it comes with a magic box -controller...
http://gentec-benelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/CATALOG-GENTEC.pdf (http://gentec-benelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/CATALOG-GENTEC.pdf)
BUT THE POINT IS STEPPER DRIVEN SOLDER PASTE DISPENSER WILL TAKE LEAD in dispensing - AIR REQUIREMENT IS NIGHTMARE TO ME!!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 16, 2015, 10:40:25 am
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Try this one : http://online.flipbuilder.com/rjbj/pjpy/#p=1 (http://online.flipbuilder.com/rjbj/pjpy/#p=1) 
Enclosed as well table of Volume Chart  ...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 16, 2015, 10:49:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIgDLez8-c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIgDLez8-c)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 17, 2015, 09:00:38 pm
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Hello Zapta - I asked for data /here reply to my/your price Question:
Fishman has 18 different applications for fluid dispensers,  they range from $9,000 - $12,000.
If you would like to proceed with a quote, we will need more information from you.
*Address
*Industry 
*What are you dispensing?
It is Fishman Corporation policy that all our potential new clients be scheduled for a conference call with one of our dispensing technicians. This gives them a better understanding of your dispensing needs.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 19, 2015, 09:28:57 pm
Here some photos of my today work -looking good to me... Needle Gauge 23-24     (Inside Dia 0.38 -0.41 mm?)
http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/ (http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/)
video here: https://youtu.be/o4PbVOhY2UQ (https://youtu.be/o4PbVOhY2UQ)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: steverino on December 20, 2015, 11:09:40 pm
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Hello Zapta - I asked for data /here reply to my/your price Question:
Fishman has 18 different applications for fluid dispensers,  they range from $9,000 - $12,000.
If you would like to proceed with a quote, we will need more information from you.
*Address
*Industry 
*What are you dispensing?
It is Fishman Corporation policy that all our potential new clients be scheduled for a conference call with one of our dispensing technicians. This gives them a better understanding of your dispensing needs.

Just to clarify, as it wasn't immediately apparent to me, the unquoted text starting from "Fishman has..." was the text of the response by Fishman corp.  For a minute, I thought mike was representing Fishman products.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 21, 2015, 07:14:39 pm
Hello - good point !   Definitely I'm not representing Fishrman Corp.....
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: xebbmw on December 21, 2015, 09:30:59 pm
I came across this web page Change unipolar 28BYJ-48 to bipolar stepper motor  http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html (http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html)
might be useful to get more power/torque out unipolar stepper ....
@Zapta: would be interesting to test your dispenser by using the same motor but with a higher torque. I guess you would need to change the driver to a bipolar driver for the motor.

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 21, 2015, 09:59:25 pm
The   28ybj-48     stepper motor would need to me slightly modified to be used as bipolar stepper motor - in addition there is integrated tention clutch in that motor - see video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srDDkkhh3NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srDDkkhh3NE)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 27, 2015, 08:51:55 am
Change unipolar 28BYJ-48 to bipolar stepper motor
http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html (http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 27, 2015, 10:31:38 am
My understanding is that you don't even need to modify the stepper to use it as bipolar stepper. Just leave the red wire unconnected. Doesn't hurt to cut the trace though if you don't intend to use it as unipolar stepper.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/overview
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 27, 2015, 11:29:50 am
Correct, but you need to change from ULN2003 to L239D driver!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 27, 2015, 11:44:16 am
Sure. That's also clearly described in both of the links (with and without cutting the trace).
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 27, 2015, 04:50:57 pm
My understanding is that you don't even need to modify the stepper to use it as bipolar stepper. Just leave the red wire unconnected. Doesn't hurt to cut the trace though if you don't intend to use it as unipolar stepper.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/overview (https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/overview)
Why don't you try some other gear & bi-polar stepper motor if Trying is the first step towards failure ?
Canada: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/R119573-BAS-Bioanalytical-Systems-Beehive-MD-1001-uL-Min-1ml-Syringe-Pump-/391306678916?hash=item5b1bb21284 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/R119573-BAS-Bioanalytical-Systems-Beehive-MD-1001-uL-Min-1ml-Syringe-Pump-/391306678916?hash=item5b1bb21284)
Tip: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271938887974?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271938887974?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on December 27, 2015, 04:58:33 pm
Correct, but you need to change from ULN2003 to L239D driver!

I think you also need to increase the voltage, otherwise you get half the current and double the number of turns so no chance. Unless if you manage to have the two halves in parallel in the right polarity.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 27, 2015, 05:19:23 pm
Works fine to me on 4 wire 5V - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNBnAmeZBv0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNBnAmeZBv0)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 27, 2015, 05:48:06 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271938887974?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271938887974?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Motor Code MICRO MO Electronics Inc AM1524-2R-V-12-150-07  next line 15/5S262:1  Seam like 262 :1 gear ratio.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on December 27, 2015, 11:50:33 pm
Works fine to me on 4 wire 5V - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNBnAmeZBv0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNBnAmeZBv0)

Yes, but does it really give significantly more torque since it uses now roughly half the current?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 28, 2015, 08:11:28 am
Quote from: zapta
Yes, but does it really give significantly more torque since it uses now roughly half the current?
[/quote
You can find your answer here:
http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html (http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html)
"Finally, most importantly, my torque test resulted in :

800gcm !!

which is at least twice as much as full stepping unipolar (380gcm) and almost 3x more powerful than my half stepping unipolar test (300gcm)

Basically, if I cut one wire in the motor, it gains almost 3 times its original strength."
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on December 28, 2015, 08:24:50 am
But that 800gcm is not with 5v :)

The torque gain comes from going from 4v (the ULN Darlington has 1v drop) to 9v.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 28, 2015, 02:24:32 pm
There are several versions of this motors 5V and 12V.......  - see https://grahamwideman.wikispaces.com/Motors-+28BYJ-48+Stepper+motor+notes
Torque results
See All torques in gram-force * cm.

Most notably:
Note 1: My test for pull-out get to about 200g x 10cm, and at that point broke teeth in the gear train. See images below.
Note 2: Neither Adafruit nor RioRand [as of current writing] list a pull-in spec, a spec which is crucial for actually moving a load.
Note 3: Adafruit's spec for pull-out torque is low by a factor of six! That is, the motor is six times more powerful (in holding) than Adafruit says it is.
Note 4: Perhaps unsurprisingly, the RioRand 5V motor's pull-in torque was about 4x that of the Adafruit 5V motor, corresponding to the 4x greater step-down gearing.
Broken teeth while testing pull-out torque......
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: moya034 on December 28, 2015, 06:32:41 pm
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html (https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html)

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 28, 2015, 07:27:07 pm
Juup - moving with the flow!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 28, 2015, 07:58:26 pm
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html (https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html)

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.
Please consider next time from here: http://www.mencinger.biz/ShopWeb.html (http://www.mencinger.biz/ShopWeb.html)
Thanks
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on December 28, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html (https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html)

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.

Please let us know how it works for you.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: jangeox on December 29, 2015, 08:43:32 am
Let me move with the flow just one more time  ;)
I'm the one who made the video where I cut the wire. It's true that it will also work without cutting it, but if you want a real bipolar motor, you should. Someone commented on my vid suggesting there's no need to cut it because the voltage will be the same in theory on both cuts. I measured it out, and it's true when the motor is running freely. It's not true when you add some load to it (which you always do, right?). I didn't test the torque with the wire not cut, but since there was a voltage (which means loss of power) , it might be a bit less torque.
I should point out that the actual voltage in the test was not 9V , but a rechargeble 9V battery which only provides 8.2V. The motor never overheated, so you could easily add more voltage (10-12V) and get more torque.
Later tests with the same driver chip and 24V  + other software (I programmed an Arduino sketch) gave +30% torque when I simulated a chopper driver (a bit like a constant current driver) , I don't have exact results from that test anymore.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on December 29, 2015, 12:19:36 pm
Jangeox, any estimation of the torque increase if you stay with 5V?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on December 29, 2015, 03:21:06 pm
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html (https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html)

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.
My first steps were with modification of this gun: - http://www.bison.net/en/products/659-glue-tools/product/838-glue-gun-hobby/ (http://www.bison.net/en/products/659-glue-tools/product/838-glue-gun-hobby/) 
this Glue stick Gun is very cheap and can help!
 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on January 03, 2016, 05:45:51 pm
Just stumbled upon this one. Not manual and not cheap but interesting nevertheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSZbkR9vNzI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSZbkR9vNzI)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 03, 2016, 07:59:32 pm
Well - I can not compare my work with above but there is a challenge in it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucoj6OZu5kI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucoj6OZu5kI)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 04, 2016, 08:16:55 am
Lots to learn here<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYb3snGrU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYb3snGrU8)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 06, 2016, 09:29:59 am
See this: IT WORKS GOOD enough!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-6ZxKXbZo8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-6ZxKXbZo8)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 13, 2016, 09:33:04 pm
Hello,
Here the V3 - R1 of softwere working;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZcBFGXJv_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZcBFGXJv_E)

I hope you like it!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 19, 2016, 08:37:23 pm
A short video about good & bad (dray & hard) solder paste and how to get hard solder paste back in shape;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyki2frm3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyki2frm3Q)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 19, 2016, 08:40:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC8oNOSlZEw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC8oNOSlZEw)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 23, 2016, 10:03:27 pm
2bar office cleaner - Spray Duster pressure and stepper test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3fm-gYnoMY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3fm-gYnoMY)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on January 23, 2016, 10:14:11 pm
2bar office cleaner - Spray Duster pressure and stepper test:

Can you explain how does it work?

I see the spray can pressurizing the syringe but the nozzle seems to come out of the motor coupler, not the syringe.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 23, 2016, 10:27:53 pm
it is based on see video « Reply #257 on: January 04, 2016, 07:16:55 PM » you will find all explanations there.
Stepper is driven by 5V USB my Dispenser V3 sketch ... 
Twice in this video I add some pressure to paste in syringe. Pressure is needed only for filling up auger housing, the rest is done by stepper.
Anything else you need to know - ask- I try to explain.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on February 01, 2016, 05:58:34 pm
I was curious of the pressure inside the Spray Duster, so I purchased a cheap gauge to measure the pressure and I was surprised by getting the read out of almost 2,5 bar!!
see photo attached 
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on February 03, 2016, 08:37:10 am
That USB syringe dispenser seems to  be interesting to hook up with CNC machine to paste boards cheap :D

Alex wired the stepper motor directly to the 3d printer driver (re-placed the filament extrusion stepper motor) & controls dispensing from my 5V USB dispenser V3 from the syringe with normal G-CODE (extract/retract commands) !!

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Kjelt on February 03, 2016, 08:50:17 am
A short video about good & bad (dray & hard) solder paste and how to get hard solder paste back in shape; 
One advice, with only stirring as shown in the video it will not always result in a good usable paste.
You better get a little out you want to use and really crush the paste so that there are no larger blobs in it, else your needle will get easily constipated.
Also I wonder if flux is needed (since the flux itself will not evaporate) or the dissolvent which is IPA. With only a few drops it will probably not matter.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on February 03, 2016, 08:58:00 am
Hello,
This is first test, which needs further testing before going to PCBs...  For this test the 5V dispenser was a bit modified to enable bolting to header and controlled by existing hardware on existing 3D printer....
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on February 04, 2016, 04:50:24 pm
I like the title.  Is it also Arduino free? 

;-)

http://hackaday.com/2016/02/03/solder-paste-dispenser-has-no-3d-printed-parts/ (http://hackaday.com/2016/02/03/solder-paste-dispenser-has-no-3d-printed-parts/)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on February 04, 2016, 06:59:29 pm
Hello Zapta,

Thanks for the link!!
You got me into this here Zapta! - So lately I have so many orders I can not live my normal life anymore I dream and soldering with my Dispenser... 
V1 and V2 are Arduino free.
V3 has Arduino involved and ISP for updating software needs ( as on my web-page).

"Technology is nothing. What’s important is that you have a faith in people, that they’re basically good and smart, and if you give them tools, they’ll do wonderful things with them.  –Steve Jobs"
Have a great day!
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: zapta on February 06, 2016, 03:05:51 am
Hello Zapta,

Thanks for the link!!
You got me into this here Zapta! - So lately I have so many orders I can not live my normal life anymore I dream and soldering with my Dispenser... 
V1 and V2 are Arduino free.
V3 has Arduino involved and ISP for updating software needs ( as on my web-page).

If in the field firmware upgrade is important, you may want to consider for V4 using a LPC11U35 or similar. They can be upgraded by connecting to any computer with a standard USB cable and no special software, just a standard file copy to the device, acting as a USB flash drive.

I can send you a free ARM PRO MINI if you want to play with that MCU and then you can design your custom board.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on February 06, 2016, 11:13:43 pm
Hello,
I appreciate your support, but my goal was and still is to keep it simple, there is one available here -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3nPmiECDfg (https://www.youtube.com/watche3nPmiECDfg)   
-seams lots of electronics in it - I really do not want to end up with so complicated item in one hand... :-)



“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.”
? Ernst F. Schumacher
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on February 21, 2016, 11:11:58 am
This might be interesting to watch - One of my tests
Dispenser 5V USB suction of paste into empty syringe: HARD WAY;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33DJzEs2iy8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33DJzEs2iy8)

And here - Dispenser 5V USB filling next syringe with valve - pushing paste into next syringe;  EASY WAY;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNadGdobExw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNadGdobExw)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on April 23, 2016, 06:26:07 am
Hello,
Latest (but not last) video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucoj6OZu5kI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucoj6OZu5kI)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on April 30, 2016, 10:54:56 pm
Just stumbled over this kickstarter campaign. It's actually meant as repair device for SLA printed stuff, but can be used for solder paste application as well:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/3dfacture/fixer-a-professional-3d-print-finish-repair-and-gl/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/3dfacture/fixer-a-professional-3d-print-finish-repair-and-gl/description)
Campaign is over though...
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on May 01, 2016, 06:32:00 am
nice but larger than my and capacity of syringe is up to 2ml only (my is up to 15ml)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dmmt40 on May 01, 2016, 08:58:30 pm
Hey what's up, wow it's nice to see lots of people creating projects and interested in dispensing, I'm right in the middle of manufacturing the first batch of my own design, I thought it was a very niche market but it's encouraging to see even that Kickstarter product got funded, now I'm more confident mine will sell too.

Anyway some comments on the Fixer3D:

First of all, volume. As mike pointed out, it's very small. Maybe not a big deal when using solder pastes but with adhesives you can go through a syringe quite quickly. It's definitely intended for occasional use only.

Then about UV curing, I actually have quite a bit of experience on this field (that's part of what I do for a living) and the main problem I see is the intensity of the LED, I think this will greatly limit the kind of  resins you can use and the total area.
When curing adhesives in two non-transparent "substrates" you need lots of light to cure all the way through. Having said that, since this is really just intended for repairs and maybe gluing some small parts I think it'll fine. Worst case scenario you'll have to let your parts out in the sun for a couple of minutes.

Another point, why do I need a computer for changing my dispensing parameters? any gain in usability from having it battery powered goes out the window when I have to mess around with the computer to fine tune the dispensing. I know it stores the settings in memory but it becomes a hurdle for the user when using it for the first time.

And finally, price. It's looks to be around 100-130$ which seems reasonable but when you consider that the sun can do the same job for free, and you can apply drops of resin directly from a normal syringe, the benefits to using this become smaller every time  :-\
My dispenser will be at the same price point but it's a far more flexible design, obviously it doesn't have a LED on the tip but actually I'm now interested to see if I can make a detachable add on for mine... :) anyway, 0xdeadbeef thanks for the tip!


Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on May 29, 2016, 08:11:14 am

Why would you need UV curing of solder paste on PCBs?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dmmt40 on May 31, 2016, 08:20:37 pm
Quote
Why would you need UV curing of solder paste on PCBs?

I assume that question is for me, no of course you wouldn't apply UV light to solder paste although if you wanted to do conformal coating in your board then yes, you'd need UV light and resin.

No, the reason is that my dispenser also does adhesives, resins, etc (so exactly the same as the Fixer3D minus the led), anyway I actually think lots of people can benefit from a cheap adhesive dispenser, that's a big market that very few care or know about. That's also how I got interested in dispensing.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on June 01, 2016, 05:54:08 am
OK - so when I can see your concept ?  It is easy to find my contact email if you dont want publishing ..
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: dmmt40 on June 01, 2016, 06:30:08 am
Oh yeah  :) I've put the info already (even a video) on this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-easy-to-use-solder-pasteadhesive-dispenser-design/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-easy-to-use-solder-pasteadhesive-dispenser-design/)

It's just a matter of days until I start selling it, a couple of people have shown interest already which is great we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mahouny on June 10, 2016, 06:29:48 pm
G'day!

I'm looking for a manual syringe tool so I can use solder paste or flux in the type of syringes as seen in attached image.

Any suggestions?

You can try this one, it's USB powered and IMHO better than manual dispensers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuakQdy8H3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuakQdy8H3s)

Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Kjelt on June 10, 2016, 08:50:36 pm
You can try this one, it's USB powered and IMHO better than manual dispensers.
Looking at that movie at 1.45 he pastes the microcontroller lqfp pads in 4 stripes, i never ever do that, that is gambling that the soldermask will defy the solderbridges during reflowing , perhaps with this spacing it works but at smaller spacings you get huge solderbridges.
Any one else with a different experience?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mahouny on June 10, 2016, 09:44:23 pm
Actually the solder paste stripes works pretty well on TQFP-32. 
Surface tension do the job ;) when reflowing PCB.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on June 12, 2016, 08:33:51 am
New Version Dispenser V5 to be out on market soon:
http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/electronic-solder-paste-dispenser-v5-air-free/ (http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/electronic-solder-paste-dispenser-v5-air-free/)
and here some first tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJa6JN7xrjM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJa6JN7xrjM)
Limited quantity !
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on June 17, 2016, 07:50:30 am
Here we go:
More; http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/ (http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Genaugmen on July 08, 2016, 12:03:56 am
Something like this...

10cc
http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG10CCR/SMDSG10CCR-ND/2638971 (http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG10CCR/SMDSG10CCR-ND/2638971)

30cc
http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG30CCR/SMDSG30CCR-ND/4271879 (http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/SMDSG30CCR/SMDSG30CCR-ND/4271879)

Look up industrial syringes on Amazon. I just ordered a 10 pack within the last2 weeks. They're available with many different sized tips. It's always better to dispense a little more of that flux than too little.
Duda Energy
Syringepk010 Industrial Syringes
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: ebclr on August 03, 2016, 11:41:40 am
5 bucks

(https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i3/2028089805/TB2ZG2weXXXXXceXXXXXXXXXXXX-2028089805.jpg)

https://world.taobao.com/item/521015578219.htm?fromSite=main (https://world.taobao.com/item/521015578219.htm?fromSite=main)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 25, 2016, 09:20:23 pm
"It's always better to dispense a little more of that flux than too little."
Correct - for the guys who start with Dispensers - MIX solder paste with fresh flux -Add  5% of Flux on the volume of solder paste and your life will be much more comfortable with SMD-SMTs !!
Good exsample of good paste is here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyki2frm3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyki2frm3Q)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: Kjelt on September 25, 2016, 09:26:13 pm
Correct me if i am wrong but it is not the flux that evaporates from the paste but the flux solvent being ipa, so add ipa to older paste not more flux.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: eliocor on September 25, 2016, 09:34:53 pm
To me the term "flux" has always been too generic...
In the video what kind of "flux" is used to rejuvenate the solder paste?
Is the flux I'm currently using [Alpha NR215] (http://www.solderconnection.com/specsheets/TB_NR215.pdf) just correct to do this operation?
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: nanofrog on September 26, 2016, 06:09:58 am
Correct me if i am wrong but it is not the flux that evaporates from the paste but the flux solvent.
Yes; and it's cheaper too.  >:D

Additional flux will work though in a pinch.

FWIW, I saw there were still remaining chunks in the paste he mixed, which could pose a problem (i.e. clog up a syringe/needle, gunk up a stencil opening, or cause a bad joint if it's not caught before reflow.

To me the term "flux" has always been too generic...
In the video what kind of "flux" is used to rejuvenate the solder paste?
Is the flux I'm currently using [Alpha NR215] (http://www.solderconnection.com/specsheets/TB_NR215.pdf) just correct to do this operation?
Yes, so long as the flux type used is the same.  :) Some no-clean fluxes will mix with rosin based fluxes, but don't mix no-clean with water soluble.

That said however, you really only need to add solvent, such as alcohol or acetone.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 26, 2016, 07:13:52 am
The right flux for your aplication- use this web:
http://www.stannol.de/en/products/flux/ (http://www.stannol.de/en/products/flux/)
https://www.rapidonline.com/pdf/520395T_v1.pdf (https://www.rapidonline.com/pdf/520395T_v1.pdf)
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on September 27, 2016, 07:16:38 pm
....
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: xebbmw on January 03, 2017, 12:34:43 pm
@mike_58: where did you get your motor shaft coupler for the version 5?

I was looking into creating a similar coupler by using a standoff but standoffs are not fully threaded usually.
Title: Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
Post by: mike_58 on January 03, 2017, 01:34:11 pm
You can buy probaby a fully treaded bar and cut it to size you need...