Author Topic: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator  (Read 99645 times)

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Offline MrQuan

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Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« on: July 06, 2015, 03:26:55 am »
G'day!

I'm looking for a manual syringe tool so I can use solder paste or flux in the type of syringes as seen in attached image.

I have an assortment of pastes and fluxes in this style of syringe. I also have one of those powered air compressor units, but I just want to be able to grab it and apply it for those one-off quick jobs without messy around with the air compressor unit.

I thought I could easily find a kit of some sort with needles and a hand plunger, or perhaps some type of gun holder thing, but I'm having difficulty.

Any suggestions?
 

Online Mr.B

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Offline MrQuan

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 06:18:47 am »
Yes, exactly like that :-) Thanks!

I'm might try to find a cheaper version now that I know what to look for.
It's nice to have that one as a plan B though (~ $82 AUD).
 

Online Mr.B

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 06:30:00 am »
NZD 112... I didn't hesitate for the pure convenience.
I have no need to spend NZD 500 or more on an air powered foot pump, or even more for a specialist machine...
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Offline MrQuan

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 06:31:40 am »
Yeah, I think you're right. Only decent alternative I found was this: http://www.mektronics.com.au/brands/metcal/metcal-manual-syringe-gun-10cc.html but that's more expensive :-P

It would be silly for me to spend any more time on this. I like your option. Thanks again :-)
 

Online Mr.B

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 06:41:47 am »
You are welcome...
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 07:03:32 am »
 

Offline MrQuan

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 07:06:19 am »
Yeah that does look nice. Good price too.
Looks like it's been sold out since February thought.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 08:07:15 am »
With applicators for paste (and silicon caulk etc) it was easy to provide enough force to start it extruding, but then it continued to extrude at a constant rate. That wouldn't be a problem except that due to my lack of skill the paste would form a "hair" as I moved it from one pad to another. What I really wanted was a mechanism that pushed until paste extruded and then pulled briefly until it stopped extruding - preferably controlled by a foot pedal.

In the absence of that, for one-off hobby applications, I found it satisfactory use a sewing needle to apply a blob to a pad. For larger boards I would use a stencil.
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Online Mr.B

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 08:55:29 am »
I use stencils for almost everything, however every so often I just want to apply a little paste to a "demo" board.
This tool is perfect for this job... no need for an expensive paste applicator... not for me at least.
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 10:05:53 pm »
The applicators shown, and especially the Tindie one, don't seem to do anything about precise dispensing volume. I get the same results from a 1ml syringe and whatever needle is the right size for the particular job. Cost is hard to say because I buy the syringes and needles in bulk, but they are cheap enough that they are disposable after a single job (although I use  them as long as they keep working, which can be a looong time).

To use, I take the 1ml syringe and squirt some paste into it from the master 10cc jobby (which then goes back into the fridge for longevity). Fit the needle, point, squirt. Since I'm a cheapskate I buy proper syringe needles, so before using a new one I clip the end to take off the sharp bit, and then file the now blunt end smooth. A few seconds is all it takes, and saves a tiny fortune.

The only drawback is the strange looks from the pharmacist when I buy the bits - probably thinks I'm a junky. Fixed that by buying online instead :)

These dry out eventually, but there isn't much paste in there so it's not a big problem to bin 'em and start again when that happens. The master 10CC lasts a lot longer than if it was used directly, though.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2015, 05:49:25 am »
The problem is that if you squeeze syringe, the stuff pours out until you pull it back a little bit.
The pneumatic applicators fix that for your. But the glue applicators don't.
I'm not sure about the tindie one.
 

Offline neslekkim

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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 07:58:09 am »
Quote
if you squeeze syringe, the stuff pours out until you pull it back

It can do. With a bit of practice you can find the 'balance point' where it comes out slow enough that releasing the pressure a bit effectively stops it, but not so slow that you're getting bored waiting :)

But, yes, it's the main drawback and I thought these applicators would fix that, particularly for the prices they are being sold at. But the Tindie appears to suffer the same problem, so I wonder why you'd pay loadsawonga for that, and ruin your paste supply, when you can have the same problem much cheaper.
 

Offline dmmt40

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2015, 06:31:12 pm »
This thread is a couple of days old but I just wanted to say that I've actually been working for the past 6 months on a little gadget to dispense all sorts of fluids without using compressed air.

It's similar in concept to the one neslekkim linked to but mine is designed so that changing syringes takes no more than a couple of seconds while retaining the ability to suck back the paste to avoid oozing.
It's very precise and repeatable because I originally designed to dispense low to medium viscosity fluids. However I recently upgraded the electronics to have more power and be able to push the much thicker solder paste... now I just have to find the right needles or tips to go with it.

 I should have it ready later this year to sell probably on Tindie and will let you guys know of course.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2015, 10:58:12 pm »
Sounds promising - I'll be interested in taking a look with a view to acquiring one  :-+
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2015, 12:31:45 am »
The one I bought shown in this thread is still working well.

Offline dmmt40

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2015, 01:43:43 am »
Sounds promising - I'll be interested in taking a look with a view to acquiring one  :-+

Thanks! I'm sure you'll like it  :)

Only recently I started playing around with solder paste but thankfully I had already mastered dispensing adhesives, and trust me those can be even more of a pain in the butt to work with (some need special teflon tips, refrigeration, some are sensitive to light, others to humidity uggh) but I'm confident it'll be alright.
I was looking at the dispenser robrenz mentioned and I truly believe this will be a more capable unit for an even cheaper price and small enough to fit in the hand.

Now I'm even more motivated to finish it knowing there really is a need or a "market" for it ;D
 

Offline fugro

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2015, 03:04:30 pm »
Looks like everything has been covered on this subject, . Have you tried <www.chipquik .com>?  They have a nice selection of soldering aids.
 

Offline packetbob

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2015, 12:32:15 am »
I know this thread is a bit old but I have recently done up an Instructable on setting up, fixing up and using a 983A variant of the Chinese solder dispensers..

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-set-up-repair-adjust-and-use-a-solder-paste/

Anyone interested in getting one may find it (along with the various threads in the EEVblog forum) helpful...
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2015, 01:18:56 am »
The problem is that if you squeeze syringe, the stuff pours out until you pull it back a little bit.
The pneumatic applicators fix that for your. But the glue applicators don't.
I'm not sure about the tindie one.

I tried the tindie applicator and the paste kept flowing after the release. The automatic ones so apply negative pressure at the end but they require a air pressure supply which adds to the cost and complexity.
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2015, 01:56:36 pm »
I know this thread is a bit old but I have recently done up an Instructable on setting up, fixing up and using a 983A variant of the Chinese solder dispensers..

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-set-up-repair-adjust-and-use-a-solder-paste/

Anyone interested in getting one may find it (along with the various threads in the EEVblog forum) helpful...

Very good instructable!, i have the same solderpaste dispenser, but not used it since I don't have air, I like that you have fixed lot of the things inside it, I think I have to do that also.
Must try to see if there is some small quiet compressors that I can use indoor.
 

Offline fivefish

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2015, 03:59:36 pm »
The compressor does not need to be running all the time while you're using the paste dispenser. You can fill up a tank, hook it up to your paste dispenser and start working.
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2015, 04:28:27 pm »
The compressor does not need to be running all the time while you're using the paste dispenser. You can fill up a tank, hook it up to your paste dispenser and start working.

Yes, but how small can one go on compressors with tank?
I was thinking about some small airbrush thingy or something like that.. but those are noisy..
 

Offline packetbob

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2015, 04:50:37 pm »
You can use a portable air tank. The idea is that you would fill it up at an auto service station and then bring it to your workplace. I was able to get about 1200 shots out of a tank before it needed to be re-filled. You have the in-convenience of having to tank the tank to get refilled but the convenience of no compressor (or the associated noise) being needed at your workplace.

In the long run a compressor is much more convenient but it is certainly possible to use the portable air tank and get most boards done in a single fill.....

 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2015, 09:10:43 pm »
Wouldn't this be possible using the air cardridges used by paintball guns?
 

Offline fivefish

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2015, 05:24:38 am »
I saw a blog posting where the guy used ordinary compressed air (duster can). Of course, he had to rig coupling adapters to connect it to the unit. 

PS: The hose coupler that is originally installed in these units (from China) do not fit the USA standard shop compressor tank couplings/valves/whatever you call them. I had to cut mine and install a new quick-disconnect so I can hook it up to my air compressor tank.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2015, 04:37:12 pm »
I am looking around for DIY paste dispensers that don't require air pressure.  Found an older design that had once a board sold on Tindie and a new once with a video on you tube. Both use a small step motor and a screw to push the plunger. I don't think they pull back to avoid oozing but I see why a 3D printed plunger can't fit into the rubber plunger and pull it back.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:384680

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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2015, 04:40:27 pm »
I built a prototype based on Geir's design. The mechanical design is different and allows to motor to pull the plunger back to avoid oozing. I am now playing with the motor control parameters to see if I can get consistent drops. The design files are here though this is still a work in progress.  https://github.com/zapta/misc/tree/master/paste_injector

The controller is Arduino Pro Mini, the motor is 28BYJ-48, and I use the AccelStepper library to control it.

One thing I learned so far is that avoiding air bubbles in the syringe helps with the oozing presentation.

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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2015, 03:47:16 am »
I am getting very good results with the prototype. Initially I tried generate individual drops, that is, on each button press, push the plunger forward N steps, then immedielty pull back M<N steps to avoid oozing but it was difficult to control the drop size, especially the the solder paste had a few air pockets as well as air between the rubber seal and the plunger.

The approach that is giving me good results is simply push the plunger in continuously and slowly. This way I place the needed on the pad wait a second or two and move to the next one. If a pad needs more paste I can just wait more. This way I could get very small drops. Also, having the needle orthogonal to the PCB such that the PCB touches the entire opening of the needle gets the paste to stick better.

Next step is to figure out the ergonomic, how many controls/buttons to use and at what location. I find it easier to hold the unit vertically with both hands, one at the top and the other at the bottom guide the needle.

So far it looks very promising. Always wanted one but didn't want to bother with an air compressor.

Cost is very low, the motor with the controller is about $2, and then just a ULN2003, a small AVR, buttons, etc, and it can operate on a standard 5V USB charger.
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2015, 10:43:46 am »
Please do keep us informed of your progress. I am feeling the urge to justify a 3D printer for this :)
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2015, 11:31:20 am »
Yes. If anyone has a link to where you can buy such a thing. Please share.
I've no room for a cnc or 3d printer  :(
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2015, 11:38:14 am »
Whats wrong with your typical syringe and its plunger.
As long as you get the right sort of solder paste (something that isn't too thick) it works well and you can repeatedly put a tiny bit of paste on pads pretty quickly.

Although it can be a bit tricky to hold if the syringe is very full, due to the length that the plunger sticks out.
But its easy fixed by removing some paste or getting less full syringes

Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2015, 01:17:14 pm »
Whats wrong with your typical syringe and its plunger.

I tried it in the past with CML/Kester EP256 and Chipquik T3 paste and didn't get good results. It was difficult to get consistent amounts and the paste didn't stick well to the board. Possibly a better flowing paste such as ChipQuik T5 will give better results.

With the motorized approach, the paste keeps flowing very slowly and pressing the needle vertically against the PCB creates a tiny drop of paste that is stuck well to the board.
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Offline Psi

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2015, 06:27:31 am »
I find chipquik paste is always far to thick to hand paste with a syringe.

The loctite paste I have atm is perfect for hand application. The label has worn off though so i can't give you a part number.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2015, 01:30:19 pm »
I find chipquik paste is always far to thick to hand paste with a syringe.

The loctite paste I have atm is perfect for hand application. The label has worn off though so i can't give you a part number.

I got recently ChipQuik T5 paste (finger solder balls) and it is runnier and stockier than their T3, at least when fresh.

Somebody also mentioned here Teflon coated needle that make the paste flow better.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2015, 11:46:10 pm »
It's almost as easy to me to hand solder vs dotting every pad, placing every part (on a necessarily small panel), then messing up and bridging every SSOP. I can only get SSOP right half the time, even with a stencil.

But FWIW, if you want to manually paste, try this before getting super fancy:

1. 3cc syringes. Smaller diameter = more pressure/leverage with a given effort. Like putting the bike into first gear.
2. Plastic tips. The pink ones (I think 20 gauge?) A tapered plastic tip = more flow for a given pressure and less continuation after pressure is ceased.

Take a big bore needle and put it on your standard solder paste syringe. Stick it all the way down into the back of the 3cc syringe. Fill up, avoiding any air bubbles. Easy, peasy. Now take the plunger and a piece of stripped 30 AWG wire. Stick the end of the wire into the back of the syringe as you push the plunger in. This lets out the air. Once seated, remove the wire. Turn the syringe rightside up and squeeze out any air left in the tip.

Tip: Fill up all your 3mm syringes at once, until your main syringe is empty. But put the rubber piece, only, into the back, without the plastic plunger. That makes for more compact and secure storage. (Make sure to use luer lock syringes, and buy the black plastic caps). When you need a new syringe, pull the plastic plunger out of the old one and secure into the new syringe, before removing the black plastic cap.

You can also buy a luer lock-to-luer lock adapter for filling syringes point-to-point, so to speak. I bought one of those. Didn't really pan out. In fact, filling from the back left little to no air and was better.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 12:01:29 am by KL27x »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2015, 04:47:05 pm »
Take a big bore needle and put it on your standard solder paste syringe. Stick it all the way down into the back of the 3cc syringe.

Do you mean forcing the needle into the syringe main chamber?

Now take the plunger and a piece of stripped 30 AWG wire. Stick the end of the wire into the back of the syringe as you push the plunger in. This lets out the air. Once seated, remove the wire. Turn the syringe rightside up and squeeze out any air left in the tip.

The wire trick is interesting, I will give it a try. Hopefully it doesn't damage the rubber.

I also noticed that some syringes have an air bubble by design. Noticed it for example with a Kester paste I got from CML. Look at the picture below, the plastic pusher has a flat end but the rubber seal is conic (on both sides) which creates an air bubble between the pusher and the rubber. Other syringes have a conic pusher end which fits the rubber seal.



... and buy the black plastic caps

Does it go over the needed?  Any link or picture?

2. Plastic tips. The pink ones (I think 20 gauge?) A tapered plastic tip = more flow for a given pressure and less continuation after pressure is ceased.

There are also needles coated internally with PTFE which result is smoother flow. Somebody mentioned them here once and mcmaster carrys them.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:51:59 pm by zapta »
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2015, 08:31:10 pm »
Quote
Do you mean forcing the needle into the syringe main chamber?
No. I was just needlessly describing the obvious. Take the empty, open 3mL syringe without the gasket in the back and hold it nose down. And lower the supply syringe needle as far down into the back of the syringe as it will reach. And then fill the 3mL syringe from the bottom (nose) to the top (back).

Then insert the thin wire into the open back of the syringe before putting the rubber gasket in. The wire rides between the side of the gasket and the chamber, allowing a tiny imperfection to let the air out as you push the gasket in, so you don't get a spongy air bubble at the back of the syringe between the solder paste and the gasket, which would defeat the purpose of using a smaller syringe. When you press the plunger you want solder to come out, immediately. Any air that is inside the syringe will cause a delay when you press on the plunger, while the air is compressing. And any (now) compressed air inside is what causes the paste to continue dispensing after you let go of the plunger. You have to be careful to not make any air bubbles when filling the syringe.

The black screw on caps are luer lock. You take the needle off to use the caps.
http://www.amazon.com/Luer-Lock-Dispensing-Syringe-Pack/dp/B00BQ4IO84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441053085&sr=8-1&keywords=syringe+caps

If you leave the needle on, it doesn't matter how tiny the gauge is. The solder paste will dry out from the needle end, back up into the chamber, plugging the syringe with dried out solder paste cement. If you are going to use the syringe again within a day or two, you can leave the needle on. But if you're done, toss the needle and put the cap on.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:55:27 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2015, 08:58:42 pm »
Thanks KL27x, I will order a few caps.

Do you have also a link to the plastic needles that you use?
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2015, 10:13:30 pm »
These 3mL syringes and this particular plastic needle is also handy for dispensing liquid rosin flux. I leave the needle on with rosin, no problem. I can't seem to keep a rosin pen tip from clogging and/or fraying to shambles, and it's not very convenient to soak the pen in alcohol before I can use it.

Even if you habitually dispense 5 times as much flux as you wanted, it's still cheaper than using flux pens, and there's no such thing as too much flux. On a fresh board, you can squirt out a little puddle and wipe it around the board with a bit of paper towel.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 11:09:55 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2015, 01:56:30 am »
These 3mL syringes and this particular plastic needle is also handy for dispensing liquid rosin flux. I leave the needle on with rosin, no problem. I can't seem to keep a rosin pen tip from clogging and/or fraying to shambles, and it's not very convenient to soak the pen in alcohol before I can use it.

Even if you habitually dispense 5 times as much flux as you wanted, it's still cheaper than using flux pens, and there's no such thing as too much flux. On a fresh board, you can squirt out a little puddle and wipe it around the board with a bit of paper towel.
Ever considered a refillable brush pen (Bonkote for example)?
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2015, 02:51:12 am »
Ever considered a refillable brush pen (Bonkote for example)?

The solder paste is probably too thick.

How good are those reusable Bonkote applicators for flex, for example Kester 951?  Do they get messy? Easy to clean?

Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 03:01:09 am by zapta »
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2015, 02:36:29 pm »
Ever considered a refillable brush pen (Bonkote for example)?

The solder paste is probably too thick.

How good are those reusable Bonkote applicators for flex, for example Kester 951?  Do they get messy? Easy to clean?

Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd
Solder paste would be a total disaster (just meant for flux).  :-DD

As per applying flux, they're rather nice IME (beware of the fakes on eBay*; the lowest price I've seen here in the US is ~$15 for a single, with most places wanting ~$17 - $20).
  • Unlike a disposable pen where you push the felt/nylon tip down to get flux, you control how much is delivered by squeezing the Bonkote pen body (measured amount per squeeze, not free flow). Combine this with how long you let the brush linger on the pads/holes, you get a lot more control IMHO.
  • More tip styles & materials to suit the user/work at hand, which can offer further control.
  • Because of it's internals (valve), it doesn't drip or spill all over the place, assuming you don't squeeze out more than the brush/tip can handle.
I've never actually had to clean one (entire unit), but running some alcohol through it wouldn't be that difficult (only swished the brush end around in some alcohol).

* The fakes actually can be used, but you'll likely have to remove the internal reservoir components (remove valve, as they only sort of work). Usable, but you'll have to keep the brush end up to keep the flux from dripping/spilling.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2015, 03:36:19 pm »
Thanks nanofrog. They have several tip models. Which one do you recommend for SMD work?
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2015, 05:32:25 pm »
Thanks nanofrog. They have several tip models. Which one do you recommend for SMD work?
I only have the BON-102 (small fine point nylon brush), so I use it for everything. The brush tip truly does makes a very fine point when it's wet, so it's very nice for SMD work IME (you'll really appreciate it when drag soldering  ;)). Holds more than enough flux for PTH too (it's fine point, but the brush itself isn't micro sized, so can hold a decent amount of flux).

Prior to trying the Bonkote, I was just dipping inexpensive artist brushes into a tiny well of flux in a porcelain spot plate or using a needle bottle. Found the brush gave the most control, and I figure the brush versions will outlast the felt tips (assuming the felt used is equivalent). And all of it is less expensive than the disposable pens.  :-+

 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2015, 05:51:46 pm »
Checked farnell now, and there are many called BON-102.. hm?
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2015, 06:49:36 pm »
Checked farnell now, and there are many called BON-102.. hm?
No letter following the 102 is the model in the photo (original). A letter after the 102 = one of the newer styles they've come out with.

Unfortunately, it appears Farnell have stopped stocking the singles and only offer the 5 packs now (BON-102 5pack). There's also a kit (all 6 styles, here).

Fortunately, Ideal-Tek is a distributor and they're available on Amazon.de ("Ideal-Tek Dosing Pen" shows you all of them; just the BON-102).  :-+

Datasheet might be of some use (.pdf; nice close-up photos to show the different tips available).

Hope this helps sort your import duty fees.   ;)
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2015, 07:10:54 pm »
Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd

They seem to be heavily counterfeit, so yes, be careful... I bought one of the 102s from Banggood (SKU188447) and of course it was a fake, doesn't work at all. The flux doesn't flow to the tip, it leaks all over if you dare to squeeze it, the tip dries out...  So I threw it in the bin, lesson learned...   |O
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2015, 08:11:38 pm »
Hope this helps sort your import duty fees.   ;)

It doesn't for me, Norway is outside EU, but good source at least if they sell to Norway (Or hopefully someone there can mail one), I found mostly 5packs at farnel, but they had one that was in a single but not much information about it.
Atleast looking at the pictures, these looks better than the clone I bought from ebay
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2015, 08:30:51 pm »
Edit: is this too good to be true ?  http://r.ebay.com/csHxNd

They seem to be heavily counterfeit, so yes, be careful... I bought one of the 102s from Banggood (SKU188447) and of course it was a fake, doesn't work at all. The flux doesn't flow to the tip, it leaks all over if you dare to squeeze it, the tip dries out...  So I threw it in the bin, lesson learned...   |O
I wouldn't trust eBay either, to be safe.

As per your counterfeit, remove the internal tube assy., and give that a try (not quite the real thing, but still usable IMHO).  ;)

Hope this helps sort your import duty fees.   ;)

It doesn't for me, Norway is outside EU, but good source at least if they sell to Norway (Or hopefully someone there can mail one), I found mostly 5packs at farnel, but they had one that was in a single but not much information about it.
Atleast looking at the pictures, these looks better than the clone I bought from ebay
I recall. But I also recall Ammoniacal's mention of using Amazon.de to get around the variable inspection fee nonsense by your postal system (i.e. gave me the clear impression this was the cheapest way to import into Norway). So I'm a bit confused (doesn't qualify/meet the conditions for the program, aren't aware of the program, or other?).  :-//

BTW, if someone else sends you one, how does that package avoid the inspection fee nonsense & import duties?
Just in the paperwork (i.e. marked personal, cash value = 0 EUR type of declarations)?

Hakko offers a similar item, the FS-210, but it's more than double the BON-102 here, and Hakko isn't known for low cost in the EU, so I don't usually think about it. Alternative should you need it/stumble across one at a steal of a deal sort of thing.  8)
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2015, 08:59:48 pm »
I recall. But I also recall Ammoniacal's mention of using Amazon.de to get around the variable inspection fee nonsense by your postal system (i.e. gave me the clear impression this was the cheapest way to import into Norway). So I'm a bit confused (doesn't qualify/meet the conditions for the program, aren't aware of the program, or other?).  :-//

BTW, if someone else sends you one, how does that package avoid the inspection fee nonsense & import duties?
Just in the paperwork (i.e. marked personal, cash value = 0 EUR type of declarations)?

Hakko offers a similar item, the FS-210, but it's more than double the BON-102 here, and Hakko isn't known for low cost in the EU, so I don't usually think about it. Alternative should you need it/stumble across one at a steal of a deal sort of thing.  8)

Letters aren't inspected unless they look like coming from companies, and if one use the CN22 sticker with information about value, and use a low value it also passes, the limit today is 350NOK, about $40-42, so as long as shipping and itemcost is below that it's ok, So if the seller have low cost on the shipping it would be ok.
I will check that seler on amazon to see.
If they only took the tax, it's no problem, but the fee they also makes it total up to a bit more than what one expect.

But buying from Farnell is ok, as long as one is company, because Farnell handles all tax stuff, also Amazon from US, they also handles the tax, but not sure about German Amazon.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2015, 10:46:58 pm »
I recall. But I also recall Ammoniacal's mention of using Amazon.de to get around the variable inspection fee nonsense by your postal system (i.e. gave me the clear impression this was the cheapest way to import into Norway). So I'm a bit confused (doesn't qualify/meet the conditions for the program, aren't aware of the program, or other?).  :-//

BTW, if someone else sends you one, how does that package avoid the inspection fee nonsense & import duties?
Just in the paperwork (i.e. marked personal, cash value = 0 EUR type of declarations)?

Hakko offers a similar item, the FS-210, but it's more than double the BON-102 here, and Hakko isn't known for low cost in the EU, so I don't usually think about it. Alternative should you need it/stumble across one at a steal of a deal sort of thing.  8)

Letters aren't inspected unless they look like coming from companies, and if one use the CN22 sticker with information about value, and use a low value it also passes, the limit today is 350NOK, about $40-42, so as long as shipping and itemcost is below that it's ok, So if the seller have low cost on the shipping it would be ok.
I will check that seler on amazon to see.
If they only took the tax, it's no problem, but the fee they also makes it total up to a bit more than what one expect.

But buying from Farnell is ok, as long as one is company, because Farnell handles all tax stuff, also Amazon from US, they also handles the tax, but not sure about German Amazon.
TheAmmoniacal regularly orders through Amazon.de, so it might be worth a PM to get the particulars.  ;)
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2015, 08:10:32 am »
I wouldn't trust eBay either, to be safe.

As per your counterfeit, remove the internal tube assy., and give that a try (not quite the real thing, but still usable IMHO).  ;)

Yeah, just look at how this ebay seller edited the "Bonkote Japan" sticker out of the images, this is a fake, 100%  ^-^

My counterfeit was really hopeless, I tried it without the inner assembly but still no luck. And it leaked badly, had to seal the thread with electrical tape, just to discover that the IPA in the flux dissolved the glue and the sticky mess started all over again. I'm back to empty nail polish flacons again, the ones with the little brushes, they work perfectly for me  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 08:14:17 am by Augustus »
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Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2015, 09:36:59 am »
This is my approach to a syringe dispenser:



It's a work in progress.

It is a "bench dispenser", it will go in the Hammond case.

It is pending for cabling, design the pencil and fine tune the firmware.

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2015, 11:23:41 am »
This is my approach to a syringe dispenser:



It's a work in progress.

It is a "bench dispenser", it will go in the Hammond case.

It is pending for cabling, design the pencil and fine tune the firmware.

Are you going to use a tube out of the syringe?

BTW, plastic parts looks very good, are they 3D printed?
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Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2015, 11:43:48 am »
Yes, I will be using a fine tubing like this:



with a Luer Lock coupling to the syringe and a dispenser pen.

And yes, plastic parts are printed. May be the pen will be printed too. The pen must have a switch to feed the paste.

Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2015, 01:24:11 pm »
This is my approach to a syringe dispenser:



It's a work in progress.

It is a "bench dispenser", it will go in the Hammond case.

It is pending for cabling, design the pencil and fine tune the firmware.

Are you interested in some constructive criticism of the mechanical aspects of what you have so far?

Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2015, 01:27:15 pm »
Quote from: robrenz on Today at 13:24:11
Are you interested in some
constructive criticism of the mechanical aspects of what you have so far?




Of course.

But some comments:

- It is in its early design ideas.

- Syringe body is heavily engaged to the support: it can't move

- Suringe plunger is heavily engaged too to the moving plastic piece.

Hope this helps you helping me :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 01:44:46 pm by EdoNork »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2015, 02:47:30 pm »
But some comments:

- It is in its early design ideas.

- Syringe body is heavily engaged to the support: it can't move

- Suringe plunger is heavily engaged too to the moving plastic piece.

Hope this helps you helping me :)

Is it intended to dispense solder paste?  It may be too thick for that
 tube.
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Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2015, 03:36:00 pm »
The tube has an internal diameter similar to a dispensing needle.
I will try it this weekend if children leave some time for me.

Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2015, 05:13:37 pm »
Of course.

But some comments:

- It is in its early design ideas.

- Syringe body is heavily engaged to the support: it can't move

- Suringe plunger is heavily engaged too to the moving plastic piece.

Hope this helps you helping me :)

The distance between the screw axis and the syringe axis is what needs improvement. Ideally you would have the screw axis inline with the syringe axis. I can do a sketch of what that would look like if you are interested. If not you should redo the two plastic pieces that connect to the syringe with the distance between the screw axis and the syringe axis made as short as physically possible. what you have now puts severe binding forces on the screw and nut. And the long thin arm connecting the nut and syringe also is much too flexible for precise control of small volumes.

Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2015, 05:50:01 pm »
Hi robrenz,

I wanted to put motor and syringe inline, but no space.
The plastic piece has two nuts separate 15 mm on the screw side.
Distance between syringe and screw axes is 40 mm.
The plastic piece is 20 mm tall and 5 mm thick in its smaller part. It's PLA, very rigid.
I can, and will, make that piece thicker and separate the screw nuts.
I needed the syringe to test, and it arrived yesterday.

Please, go ahead with your comments. Thanks.

Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2015, 06:30:03 pm »
May I humbly suggest that I sketch a suggested layout before you make any more parts?

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2015, 07:02:44 pm »
The other stepper based one, have custommade plunger, with an embedded nut, so you can have the stepper in a better place..
 

Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2015, 07:45:26 pm »
Sure.

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2015, 08:43:11 pm »
I think you might have issues with the long thin tubing. Long thin tubing increases the drag on the highly viscous solder paste. More drag >> more pressure >> more stretching/ballooning of the tubing and the syringe body, and more compression of the rubber gasket = solder paste taking a longer delay before it dispenses and also continued solder paste squeezed out after the stepper motor stops moving.

The latter part can be alleviated by firmware to some extent. The former, not so much.

The obvious solution is to use larger diameter tubing with a small needle just on the end. But the obvious problem is the waste of a lot of solder paste, unless you use this thing very frequently.

I think a handheld design will work better, for this reason.

Even as is, I see a lot of solder paste used to prime the tubing, and then a log of clogged line when the solder paste eventually dries out, despite your best efforts. But if you assemble boards very frequently, I guess this is going to be fine! :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 08:50:43 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2015, 09:40:13 pm »
Quote
Long thin tubing increases the drag on the highly viscous solder paste

Agreed in spades. But... [perhaps only partly in jest] how about filling that tube with paste, and then instead of trying to push more through, you peel back the end to uncover however much solder you need.

That didn't seem like as daft an idea as I thought it would, so I wondered if you could create a sheath that would evaporate when heated to >150C or so (save having to peel it back as you feed it). And that led to me thinking that maybe if you could create some solid flux-like sheath it would be brilliant. And then I realised I'd just invented inside-out solder, so perhaps not :(
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2015, 11:18:02 pm »
The other stepper based one, have custommade plunger, with an embedded nut, so you can have the stepper in a better place..

I also ordered these and will give them a try, instead of the embedded nut.  It will be useful also for the 4 screws that secure the motor and the syringe.  Should be able to insert them with a standard soldering iron.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#94180a353/=yrotk6

Edit: initially I used two gliding rods to prevent the plunger to rotate with the long screw but I removed them and it works just as well. There is sufficient friction between the gasket and the cylinder to prevent rotation. Latest STL are here https://github.com/zapta/misc/tree/master/paste_injector/openscad (will tweak the M4 insert dimensions once they arrive) and Arduino Pro Mini sketch here https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/arduino/arduino.ino
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 11:28:06 pm by zapta »
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2015, 11:41:53 pm »
There are many models of syringe pumps on the market. I am not sure though if they are a good fit for accurate solder paste dispensing.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=syringe+pump&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIlObkp8LZxwIVln6ICh3dmgA5



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Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2015, 12:36:18 am »
Quote
Long thin tubing increases the drag on the highly viscous solder paste

Agreed in spades. But... [perhaps only partly in jest] how about filling that tube with paste, and then instead of trying to push more through, you peel back the end to uncover however much solder you need.

That didn't seem like as daft an idea as I thought it would, so I wondered if you could create a sheath that would evaporate when heated to >150C or so (save having to peel it back as you feed it). And that led to me thinking that maybe if you could create some solid flux-like sheath it would be brilliant. And then I realised I'd just invented inside-out solder, so perhaps not :(
Solder Paste Sausage  :-DD
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2015, 02:00:24 pm »
Sure.

I was initially focused just on the mechanical layout of what you had shown but the comments on the long tubing issues by KL27x are right on!  I would first try the tubing setup manually to see the problems yourself. I think you will find the bench with tubing idea to have too many negatives.  I can still sketch a improved mechanical layout but I think this is doomed with the long tubing idea.

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2015, 03:17:43 pm »
Robenz, you have the know how and tools to offer great paste dispensers that don't require air compressor. Have you considered it?
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Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2015, 03:30:48 pm »
Robenz, you have the know how and tools to offer great paste dispensers that don't require air compressor. Have you considered it?

Thanks for your confidence in me!  I have not thought about it because I have an air dispenser that works very well. That is a very good idea that I will put some thought into. :-+

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2015, 07:09:49 pm »
Robenz, you have the know how and tools to offer great paste dispensers that don't require air compressor. Have you considered it?

Thanks for your confidence in me!  I have not thought about it because I have an air dispenser that works very well. That is a very good idea that I will put some thought into. :-+

I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2015, 07:24:52 pm »
Nice, but I am thinking purely mechanical operation.

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2015, 07:37:29 pm »
Nice, but I am thinking purely mechanical operation.

yes, but can it be handheld?, with some light and strong materials that would be cool., but I'm not so sure about this idea: https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2015, 09:07:07 pm »
I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?

My prototype is based on this one with two changes, it can also pull back and it didn't need the two guiding rods which makes it simpler to construct.
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2015, 09:47:42 pm »
I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?

My prototype is based on this one with two changes, it can also pull back and it didn't need the two guiding rods which makes it simpler to construct.

That one can also pull back, just a small change to the source..
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2015, 03:34:27 am »
I like this setup: http://letsmakerobots.com/content/solder-paste-dispenser
But with your machining skills, I would guess it would be even better?

My prototype is based on this one with two changes, it can also pull back and it didn't need the two guiding rods which makes it simpler to construct.

That one can also pull back, just a small change to the source..

Are you sure? The nut is not embedded so I think it can only push but not pull. I printed it from the files on Thingiverse.
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #81 on: September 04, 2015, 06:26:42 am »
Are you sure? The nut is not embedded so I think it can only push but not pull. I printed it from the files on Thingiverse.

Good call.. Glue the nut in.. ;)
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #82 on: September 04, 2015, 07:06:22 am »
Are you sure? The nut is not embedded so I think it can only push but not pull. I printed it from the files on Thingiverse.

Good call.. Glue the nut in.. ;)

I don't think the other end of the plunger can pull, it's just flat. The original version was not designed to pull, just to release pressure, that's why it needed the two guides, to prevent it from rotating with the shaft.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2015, 04:58:55 am »
Spend some time this weekend to work on the paste dispenser.  A few pictures below. My conclusion so far are that 1) it's workable  2) control and results are much better than pressing the syringe by hand, 3) printing result is not as good as using a stencil, 3) the quality of the paste makes a big difference.

Using a cheap Mechanic paste from ebay. The paste barely sticks to the board. Big mess. I was able to assemble that board but it required massive rework.


Using a good quality ChipQuik T4 paste. It sticks much better and provides good control. This board required significantly less rework.


The mechanical contraption. All blue pieces are 3D printed with PLA on a RepRap printer. The syringe is hold in place using a plate and two M4 screws. The syringe can be rotate around to optimize the orientation when using a bent needle.


The dispenser disassembled. The motor to threaded shaft coupler is also 3D printed and is held in place using two M3 screws and nuts.


Another view


The motor mount


A look into the plunger. The thread is a M4 heat fit insert (mcmaster 94180A353).


The bottom of the motor mount. Same M4 threaded inserts.





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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2015, 09:56:08 am »
Looks impressive :)

What happens when the syringe is worn out, specifically the neoprene seal on the end of the custom plunger? Presumably you nick the one off a new syringe?

FWIW, by hand I use a 1ml syringe since it gives the most movement to small amount of paste. I think the  luer lock only shows up on 3ml a bigger, though. But, anyway, maybe a smaller syringe might improve delivery a bit due the the higher 'gearing'.
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2015, 12:27:53 pm »
This build looks impressive!.
You printed the plunger so it can pull the rubber piston back?

A look into the plunger. The thread is a M4 heat fit insert (mcmaster 94180A353).


After looking at mcmaster page for that heat fit insert, I wonder, the installation tip for soldering iron, I cannot find any information about that, which soldering iron will it fit?
Or did you use other ways of inserting it?

I guess Mcmaster still don't want to ship internationally, I tried last in 2011, but no-go.

 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2015, 05:06:04 pm »
What happens when the syringe is worn out, specifically the neoprene seal on the end of the custom plunger? Presumably you nick the one off a new syringe?

Considering the low amount of movement I don't think the syringe will worn that quickly. At one point I cleaned up the syringe and plunger with IPA and then the seal did not fit in because of too high friction so I put a small amount of silicon grease and it went in smoothly (which made me to think that syringes come with a small amount of lubricant).

There are many 10ml syringes available on the internet and they are cheap. One thing you need to make sure is that the one you buy fit the plunger you printed. Below are the ends of two 10ml plungers, the one at the top fits the plunger I printed. You can tell between them by the number of black seal rings you see from the outside, the one at the top has two rings and the one of the bottom has three rings (this is based on a very small sample).

 

Mine look like this one  http://www.cmlsupply.com/dispensing-syringes-10cc-10ml-pack-of-10-with-tip-caps/

The plunger I printed fits into the rubber seal and can both push and pull it. You can see the 3D model here

https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/openscad/plunger.stl

After looking at mcmaster page for that heat fit insert, I wonder, the installation tip for soldering iron, I cannot find any information about that, which soldering iron will it fit?
Or did you use other ways of inserting it?

I guess Mcmaster still don't want to ship internationally, I tried last in 2011, but no-go.

Here is some information about those inserts. Since I am merely a hobbyist, take it with a grain of salt.

This is the M3 set the McMaster sells. The M4 is similar. The insertion tip is at the top and the extraction tip is at the bottom. The tip in the center is of the Weller SP40NUS solder iron they sell for this purpose.



For insertion I just use a Metcal STTC 125 tip that I happen to have (with a MX500 solder station). It worked just as good. This is a fixed temperature setup.



As for finding those inserts, you can search under different names such as 'heatfit threaded inserts' 'ultrasonic threaded inserts' 'heat threaded inserts'  'tapered threaded inserts'. For example

https://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasonic+threaded+inserts&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch

There is also that kind of symmetrical inserts that you can find on ebay, for example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-20pcs-Brass-Knurl-Nuts-M4-8mm-L-6mm-OD-Metric-Threaded-nuts-insert-round-/221526229763?hash=item3393fe0303  They are good for the 4 motor mount holes but not for the plunger because the sharp edge at the front end causes the long hole inside the plunger to clog. You can try filing one end of these inserts to make them conic, possibly this will avoid clogging the plunger hole.

Also note that all the dimensions in my 3D models were tweaked to match the parts I have and the tolerances of my 3D RepRap printer so you may need to tweak them.



PS: considering that these inserts are so easy to use and useful for 3D parts, I am surprised that they are not more popular with the 3D make community and available from vendors catering to hobbyists.



« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 05:14:57 pm by zapta »
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #87 on: September 07, 2015, 05:32:17 pm »
I did a few experiments with the cheap inserts from ebay and they seem to work. Those inserts are designed for molding, not for heat insertion, but tapering one end with a Dremel disk solves the problem. I was able to insert the taperd insert without clogging the plastic hole past the insert which is required for the plunger.

A stock vs. manually tapered inserts (this is a M3, the paste injector uses M4 but it should be the same):



This is how I held the insert while tapering it with a Dremel disk:
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #88 on: September 07, 2015, 07:36:41 pm »
ah, good to know, that the shape is important like that.
Found some that sold better ones on ebay, from US, but it seemed like the shipping was kinda expensive ($28-30 for 50-100 pieces).

But anyway, need to get parts printed also.. that can be expensive.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2015, 08:53:12 pm »
ah, good to know, that the shape is important like that.
Found some that sold better ones on ebay, from US, but it seemed like the shipping was kinda expensive ($28-30 for 50-100 pieces).

But anyway, need to get parts printed also.. that can be expensive.

I can mail you from here the printed parts with the inserts installed. You pay out of pocket mailing cost.
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2015, 09:13:16 pm »
ah, good to know, that the shape is important like that.
Found some that sold better ones on ebay, from US, but it seemed like the shipping was kinda expensive ($28-30 for 50-100 pieces).

But anyway, need to get parts printed also.. that can be expensive.

I can mail you from here the printed parts with the inserts installed. You pay out of pocket mailing cost.

Sent you an pm
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #91 on: September 07, 2015, 11:02:49 pm »
Side note: someone is already trying to sell a stepper driven dispenser on eBay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Syringe-Solder-Paste-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-powered-Lotpaste-Regler-dispenser-/271979673060?hash=item3f534075e4
Looks a bit cobbled together though.

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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2015, 04:57:02 am »
Side note: someone is already trying to sell a stepper driven dispenser on eBay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Syringe-Solder-Paste-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-powered-Lotpaste-Regler-dispenser-/271979673060?hash=item3f534075e4
Looks a bit cobbled together though.

I think it's by this guy. His email address is in the video description.

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2015, 05:09:25 am »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Precision-Solder-Paste-Auto-Dispenser-controller-CNC-/221866155560?hash=item33a840de28
There's this one, too. If I am remembering, right, it is the first that I ever saw, using this sort of design with the stepper motor. The designer put it on a blog/webpage and sold some of his extra proto board order. He used a PICAXE, IIRC. That must have been at least 3-4 years ago.

It's hard to see the one in the video link, but maybe it's the same board, even.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 05:14:26 am by KL27x »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #94 on: September 08, 2015, 05:43:14 am »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Precision-Solder-Paste-Auto-Dispenser-controller-CNC-/221866155560?hash=item33a840de28
There's this one, too. If I am remembering, right, it is the first that I ever saw, using this sort of design with the stepper motor. The designer put it on a blog/webpage and sold some of his extra proto board order. He used a PICAXE, IIRC. That must have been at least 3-4 years ago.

It's hard to see the one in the video link, but maybe it's the same board, even.

This is Geir's design which is the inspiration for my design. Main difference are not having the two anti rotation guides and allowing the motor also to pull the plunger.

https://www.tindie.com/products/Dead_Bug_Prototypes/solder-paste-controller/

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:384680

And then there is the Pieco. Didn't work well for me and kept oozing badly (no easy way to relive the pressure).

https://www.tindie.com/products/Pieco/paste-press/

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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #95 on: September 08, 2015, 03:37:32 pm »
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurK1yjgyEU][/img]


What motor are you using?

I am using 28BYJ-48 which is cheap, easy to mount and works but kind on the bulky side.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2015, 07:30:16 am »
Here is a larger stepper used as dispenser for solder paste.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2015, 06:01:05 pm »
Hello,

The motor itself is not the key to solder dispenser, in order to have sufficient power you need a gearbox which (if selected properly) will give you the required torque & force to move the solder paste trough the needle.  There is no code for motor I use, but it has a build-in gear box with all metal gears with gear ratio 1 turn on piston is about 25 short clicks on controller command-Press.

I hope this will help you.
BR
Mike
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2015, 06:19:02 pm »
Hello,

The motor itself is not the key to solder dispenser, in order to have sufficient power you need a gearbox which (if selected properly) will give you the required torque & force to move the solder paste trough the needle.  There is no code for motor I use, but it has a build-in gear box with all metal gears with gear ratio 1 turn on piston is about 25 short clicks on controller command-Press.

I hope this will help you.
BR
Mike

Thanks Mike. Can you share with us where you source that geared motor?  I am using this one, it requires 512 half steps per threaded shaft revolution (which has a 0.7mm pitch).

http://robocraft.ru/files/datasheet/28BYJ-48.pdf

Also, do you generate an individual drop per pad, as the pneumatic devices do, or just a very slow flow that you apply to one pad after the other? Mine does the latter.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2015, 07:43:54 pm »
Larger motor with the same controller PCB test:

Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2015, 08:04:12 pm »
A way of getting the solder paste to PCB is as well with
dousing pump system, but a long hose would need to be attached to 0.5mm pencil /needle ....  and the drain of hose from pump to needle would be a problem - unused a lot of paste... 



Zapda - see if you can open this eBay link in US where you are and why dont you buy one  :)?
Mike

 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 08:17:20 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 08:10:57 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2015, 04:03:13 pm »
Zapda - see if you can open this eBay link in US where you are and why dont you buy one  :)?
Mike

Thanks Mike. This is a hobby for me so I prefer to build it. It's part of the fun.

Your way of filling it though the needle end is very interesting. I do it from the wide end and need to deal with air pockets that cause oozing.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2015, 04:22:05 pm »
Hello Zapta,
You have to do it my way (it is not actually my way) but it is the only proper way! Air should NOT enter Syringe Barrel. !! 
See note on my bottom eBay page: and I add it here!
Mike
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2015, 04:38:17 pm »
Mike, in my case I start with a jar of paste. Should I first drop into an auxiliary syringe and then pass it to the real one your way?
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2015, 05:27:57 pm »
Hello,
Once you open the Jar, I would say it it better to fill up a (spare) larger syringe depending on size of Jar...- this way paste stays in closed barrel and you will be able to use it longer time..  If you will open Jar several times paste losses lifetime due to contact with fresh air.  All depends on paste - the best is to get manufactures data sheet and follow it. Important is as well size of grain of paste, do not try to push larger grains trough small needle size!!  I was reading in this forum as well problems with paste sticking to needle, this can be avoided with a bit of pre-heating of solder paste in CLOSED syringe just before use to 40-60 C in hot water or with hot air gun, hair drier, etc.. You will get much better flow out from  needle and as well it will be much less force required from motor to push the paste out of needle. Some manufacturers prefer storing of paste at abt 8deg. C -12deg C, many people place paste at some lower spot in fridge - this cold paste is definitely needed to be pre-heated before use by any of dispensers...
I hope this helps you,
BR
Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2015, 05:42:35 pm »
Here a hand press tool for larger syringes For filling up and other needs - but not for PCB -solder paste application is to large.. for your info:
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2015, 07:46:55 pm »
Quote
Mike, in my case I start with a jar of paste. Should I first drop into an auxiliary syringe and then pass it to the real one your way?

What I do for this situation is make a long, pointy "pastry dispenser" with a piece of electrostatic bag. The silver kind with the conductive faraday cage, because it does not stretch. I make this with a heat sealer. Fill with goop, cut off the tip, then squirt this into a large diameter syringe. Tap the nose on the bench until the paste settles flat and any air bubbles come to the surface. The paste is so heavy that this will get rid of practically any air. The bubbles move slowly but surely to the surface. Then put the gasket in * and use that to fill the smaller syringe.
Quote
You have to do it my way (it is not actually my way) but it is the only proper way! Air should NOT enter Syringe Barrel.

You cannot fill an empty syringe from the needle end without introducing air, unless it has the kind of rubber gasket that has the nib on it that comes all the way to the tip of the syringe. And even that is not completely air free in most cases. This is why when you fill a syringe to give an injection, you have to squirt out that air bubble, first. So this method with a thick paste will get a little air at the very back of the syringe, where it will remain for the entire time. IME, having tried it both ways, it is better to fill it from the back end, using a long needle. Especially "hand solder paste" which you can make a little more fluxy than stencil paste.

Unless maybe you are refilling a syringe that is not completely empty, I don't see how filling from the needle end is better. Filling from the back it is pretty easy to get no air, at all. And if you get air in there, you can tap it out before you insert the gasket.

*When you're done filling from the back, insert the gasket with a wire between the gasket and the syringe body to let out the air. When filling from the tip, you could use the wire trick to get out most of the air out from the start. But filling from the back is just as good with the right tools, maybe even better and definitely easier. It's close to perfect. I even bought a luer lock to luer lock adapter to fill syringes tip to tip. It was simply not better, IMO, but then I'm filling new syringes and tossing them when done. With a fancy hand dispenser, I would likely do the same, using new syringe and gasket and tossing when done. Just stick the machined plunger into the back of the next syringe to reload.

 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 08:24:34 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2015, 08:25:58 pm »
Home made way here ; https://youtu.be/9EAbOFfHvNU
For professional use text under above video..
Br
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:43:50 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2015, 09:57:47 pm »
Any air in the tip of the empty syringe is trapped, the way your are filling. This is why I abandoned that method. I dunno what material you use for the white gasket in your video. A regular rubber gasket is easily placed in AFTER filling the syringe. Whether filling from the nose or from the back. You can let all the air out, when you learn the nuances to the wire trick. Even if you do it sloppy, you can easily beat the air that your method introduces.

If for some reason, the wire trick doesn't work with the custom gasket that your device uses, I might try filling the empty syringe with a little bit of flux. Then let the air bubble out before filling it with paste. This will leave a little liquid flux at the back of the syringe, instead of air.

The reason you want to get rid of the bubble at the back end of the syringe is because it's thousands of times more compressible than solder paste. It will act like a spring and will reduce the responsiveness/control of your paste dispenser.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 10:20:41 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2015, 06:15:45 pm »
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?

2. Do people that use those air pressure paste dispensers also have issues with filling and air bubbles (or is it a problem only with motorized dispensers)
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2015, 06:55:04 pm »
It's not rocket science. When you change your brake fluid, you bleed the line to remove the air. This is the same problem.

Yes, it can be adjusted for to some degree in any system. The system needs pull-back to compensate for the "oversqueeze", and it needs higher speed to compensate for the initial delay. Your brakes can still work with a little air, for example, and your foot will adjust to the new, spongy norm. But for the best control and response time, it will always be better for it to not be there.

I would think most people using compressed air systems are just buying paste in a syringe. I have mucked around with filling syringes to paste by hand. Transferring the paste to a thinner 3mL syringe reduces the pressure needed to move the paste.

Quote
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?
Take your syringe and remove the needle. Put the black twist cap on. Drop/throw it nose-down onto your bench, repeatedly, from a height of a couple inches. If there's air in it, it will be pushed to the back of the syringe where you will see a bubble form.

Don't go crazy with this. Do this long enough, and you will separate your paste. This is the main reason paste goes bad. The solder balls will eventually collect at the bottom, and the liquid flux will rise to the top. It's not a solution. It's a colloidal suspension.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 12:24:24 am by KL27x »
 

Offline packetbob

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2015, 09:43:31 pm »
1. Is there a way to tell if the paste in the syringe has air bubbles?

2. Do people that use those air pressure paste dispensers also have issues with filling and air bubbles (or is it a problem only with motorized dispensers)

If you don't see an air bubble between the plunger and the solder paste then it is probably not an issue...
I haven't found air bubbles in the paste to be an issue..
My bubbles are always between the plunger and the paste..
As KL24x mentions it will make the action of the plunger "spongy"....
An air bubble in the syringe affects things regardless of the type of dispenser
As mentioned putting a small wire along side the plunger as you put it into the syringe is probably the best way to avoid the bubbel..
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2015, 04:10:38 pm »
Hello,
If the motor on dispenser has a proper gear ratio there will be NO - " action of the plunger "spongy". My motor does not turn beck due to air bubble return pressure, even when you take the 5V power off ! - but if air is inside the air-compressed driven paste syringe when you release the pressure on driving unit - it will (should) return a bit to equalize the pressure...
Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2015, 04:37:40 pm »
My version IS USING A STEPPER !! 5V  NOT DC motor!!

With abt. 3cm  stroke you can do plenty of PCBs - it is a lot of paste.... I can say you can discharge almost all from typical syringes that are sold on the market (or sold by Farnell) including Chinese paste.
***It is about 5-7mm missing to discharge all from some syringes.. - you can add in a plastic toothpaste plug in and you will discharge all ... 
New version of dispenser (Dec 2015) has a longer piston and all can be discharged!!

The advantages I see are :
- No noise (no compressor), 5V stepper motor with gearbox are very quiet  :wtf:.
- Easy to handle - small size,
- you can plug down the needle and leave it for next paste to PCB..,
- Simple easy power supply 5V charger + USB cable (you can use USB from computer,...)..
- Cable ties look strange but -this is the only way to keep it simple and low cost, I had previous model with 20ml Al. & holder but costs... and than you are limited with syringe size - diameter and.... problems start...
-   and stepper motor with gearbox is strong /no maintenance needed, ...

I think it is handy all-doe not very fancy looking - but it was made for use not for beauty contest   :-DD

Try it out .... http://www.ebay.com/itm/271979673060?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

Larger and nice looking (as well 5V stepper but larger motor+gearbox) I have as well - but not on eBay where I sell this small....  Ask for price to my email if you want larger model for glue or other liquids or pastes -.....

I can say that from my sold Clients I get positive feedback on use; 
"  but until now it has worked without any problems and am very satisfied.
You have done a really good job. Thank you.  and continue with the good work"
Mike
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:49:07 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2015, 08:31:03 pm »
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #116 on: September 30, 2015, 10:17:12 pm »
Quote
If the motor on dispenser has a proper gear ratio there will be NO - " action of the plunger "spongy".

When there's a big ole air bubble in the syringe, this is a problem. The first turns of the motor compress the air bubble instead of dispensing paste. Then the pressure will finally ramp up enough for paste to start coming out at speed. Then after the paste is dispensed, the compressed air will slowly squeeze out a little more paste over time. Then when you pick up your dispenser after letting it sit for a minute, there's a little curly worm of semi-dried paste sticking off the end of the needle that doesn't want to stick to a pad and trying to use it will mess up the tip, so you might as well stop and clean off the tip to begin with. A compressed air system fairly effectively eliminates this by discharging all air pressure after dispensing, allowing the gasket to spring back rather than force paste through the needle.

I suppose you can program a stepper to pull back a little when done dispensing. But this has nothing to do with gearing of the motor.  :-// If you want to spit out precision amounts of paste, fast, taking the time to get rid of air is going to be beneficial.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 10:50:58 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2015, 08:34:11 pm »
Hello,
There are two buttons 1)PRESS and 2)Release  -you can release pressure any time - no need re-programming - already programmed.

It would be a time consuming work to study and make dispenser work automatic (push& a bit return) for all kinds of solder paste available on market and ;
- having in mind different size of OD of syringes,
- size of needles
and temperature of solder paste.... 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:55:56 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #118 on: October 04, 2015, 05:23:58 pm »
But.. WHERE do you find the motor?

You could try to use this one : http://www.ebay.de/itm/281737009862?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

there are quite a lot of steppers good quality available in Europe from Minebea - Matsushita Motor Corporation see data sheets enclosed.
I hope this helps! Good luck!
Mike
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2015, 10:04:16 am »
Hello,
Here are some videos of 5V DC motor force achieved test..


and here my stepper dispenser motor test :


You can make conclusions yourself.
Mike
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2015, 10:41:50 am »
Quote
You can make conclusions yourself.

We might if we knew what scale the gauge uses - if it's grams it's not awfully impressive   O0
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2015, 10:47:10 am »
scale shows - kg  -

1 kg = 2.2 pounds  (depending where on globe you Google!)
http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/kilograms-to-pounds.htm
 
For some reason notes on video do not show up if using mobile phone..,
Try your computer or You Tube and you should be able to see notes of values added to video..
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 09:43:19 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2015, 12:04:34 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force)
There is no room for debate in the conversion, since pounds are defined in kilo's.
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2015, 12:09:16 pm »
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?

But is this the speed they can go?, say, for dispensing, it's ok, but if you pull it back, I would guess one would increase the speed just a tad, or is that no point?
Like, press for dispense, leave the button, and it pull back a tad fast, and press again, it push where it was, and a bit more for leaving the solder? (kinda like simulating the air based ones?)
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2015, 01:55:20 pm »
Quote
scale shows - kg

Shows something, but no way can it be read in the photo or video, hence my (light hearted) comment. Worth bearing in mind a lot of stuff isn't obvious to other folks that aren't there.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2015, 02:04:32 pm »
But is this the speed they can go?, say, for dispensing, it's ok, but if you pull it back, I would guess one would increase the speed just a tad, or is that no point?
Like, press for dispense, leave the button, and it pull back a tad fast, and press again, it push where it was, and a bit more for leaving the solder? (kinda like simulating the air based ones?)

I couldn't manage to generate distinct individual drops by push/pull cycles as done with air pressure based devices (I presume, not experience with those). I think the main problem is the free play in the system and the limited speed of the geared motor.

However, I got good results  (second picture here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/msg747923/#msg747923 ) by creating a very very slow rate of feed and hitting the pads at a fixed rate, leaving the needle longer on larger pads. The motorized syringe and the speed control potentiometer enable a much better control of the flow, especially at very low rates, than pressing by hand.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2015, 09:29:47 pm »
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?
Seams to me servos could be used - metal gear -360 rotation - could be controlled as stepper ...
Metal Gear Continuous Rotation Tower Pro Servo
Product Code : RB-Nex-40 [/b]  by Nexus Robot RB-Nex-40
Metal Gear Continuous Rotation Tower Pro Servo
The 360 Degree Rotation Metal Gear Servo Motor is a double bearing, coreless, metal gear, standard
torque 360 degree rotation servo motor. It is suitable for mobile robot driven motor. Also, it can be use
for wheeled and perfect for medium-sized electric airplanes, helicopter or mini mobile robot kit, etc.
This servo motor comes with a number of various servo horns and arms with mounting hardware.
Specifications
• Working Voltage: 3-7.2V
• Working current: 100m A
• Working torque: 13kg/cm
• Average speed: 53-62 rpm
• Rotation range: 0- 360 degree
• Working Temperature: -30 ~+60 ? ?
• Size: 41.7x19.7x42.9mm
• Weight: 55g
http://www.robotshop.com/en/metal-gear-continuous-rotation-tower-pro-servo.html
http://www.robotshop.com/en/catalogsearch/result/?q=Metal+Gear+Continuous+Rotation&order=stats_sales_order_count&dir=desc

GS-5515MG 15kg High Torque Throttle Steering Servo Metal Gears
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-GS-5515MG-15kg-High-Torque-Throttle-Steering-Servo-Metal-Gears-Free-Shipping/251913518476?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33601%26meid%3D30c31434633a4c628bf3edfb50b1a840%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251913518748

 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2015, 11:23:54 pm »
If you are using servos, Servo City has a variety of servo shaft couplers.

https://www.servocity.com/html/servo_shafts___couplers.html
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #128 on: October 07, 2015, 12:54:13 pm »
Seems like the servos are strong enough for this usage anyway?
Seams to me servos could be used - metal gear -360 rotation - could be controlled as stepper ...

Crap, I meant stepper of course, not servo ;)
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #129 on: October 07, 2015, 01:51:48 pm »
Quote
scale shows - kg

Shows something, but no way can it be read in the photo or video, hence my (light hearted) comment. Worth bearing in mind a lot of stuff isn't obvious to other folks that aren't there.
For some reason notes on video do not show up if using mobile phone..,
Try your computer or You Tube and you should be able to see notes of values added to video..
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #130 on: October 07, 2015, 02:08:44 pm »
Desktop browser. But loaded with privacy options, so possibly non-video overlays from a third-party site wouldn't show. Well, obviously your notes didn't :)

[Later...]
Nope, disabled all that stuff and still no overlays. Oh well.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2015, 10:18:09 pm »
I played today with syringes (motorized and manual) and solder paste and I think that I found the recipe for successful dispensing of solder paste.

The problem I had was that the solder paste didn't stick well to the board, even when using for example fresh from the factory Senju paste. In addition, filling the syringe and removing the air bubbles was a pain.

It seems that applying the paste using a syringe requires a more fluid or thin paste. I mixed a little bit of paste with Kester 981 until it became softer and sticker (try to apply to a PCB with a toothpick, make sure the drop sticks to the PCB) and then filled the syringe (thin paste, it flow well, air bubble stay at the top) and it worked like a charm (I used a very thin needle, maybe #26 or thinner, not sure) and every drop stuck to the board.

This worked well even when applying from the syringe manually, without the motorized dispenser.  The motorized syringe makes it easier to control the flow, especially at a very low rate, but using a regular syringe should be doable.

One paste that doesn't require dilution with flux is QuikChip T5. All the other pastes I used were T3 so am not sure if all the T5 are thiner and sticker out of the box.

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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #132 on: October 10, 2015, 11:37:34 pm »
Interesting. Thanks for the info, and the testing :)

Presumably there is no problem with having too much flux on the board?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #133 on: October 10, 2015, 11:54:08 pm »
I don't like being the voice of negativity, but that's where I am. I think hand pasting is a waste of time except in very specific circumstances of very dense component arrangement and/or boards with no soldermask.

Sloppy hand pasting can leave solder balls and potential bridges. Oven reflowing leaves dried out connections that can be more deceptive to inspect. And hand pasting doesn't really save any time in most cases. Rather than pasting each pad, and then placing, you can solder each pad while placing. The biggest added step in hand soldering is the prefluxing of the pads, which takes much less effort and attention than hand pasting. Depending on what tip you use, you may have to flip the board, here or there. But that's quite often a small price to pay for having zero chance of smearing parts, no need to bake the board, and to spend very little time inspecting and reworking boards for tombstoned caps and bridged or crooked IC's. Not to mention having your dispenser tip start going wonky and having to clean it off to get it to work, again, because the slightest crud changes the way the paste dispenses and sticks. This is doubly the case when doing panels/batches of the same board, because you can run through the same part or three on all your boards, then setup all your boards for the next couple of parts without having a minefield of solder paste and pasted parts to pay attention to.

I have the paste. I have the oven. I'll use that stuff with stencils, on occasion. That's about it. I have tried hand pasting, and even when it works, great, it's usually not worth the time/effort.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:13:27 am by KL27x »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #134 on: October 11, 2015, 12:01:52 am »
Interesting. Thanks for the info, and the testing :)

Presumably there is no problem with having too much flux on the board?

I would think that as long as the paste is not to watery and stays on the pad it's good. There is no such thing as too much flux :)

(I am not an expert, if there is an expert here please chime in)
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #135 on: October 11, 2015, 12:03:03 am »
Sloppy hand pasting can leave solder balls and potential bridges.

I always inspect and rework if needed, even when using stencils.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #136 on: October 11, 2015, 12:15:04 am »
This is why even stencils don't save time on many board layouts. When hand soldering SMD, you see a shiny joint that covers the pad, and you're done inspecting. But at least with a stencil you can use dry, hard paste that doesn't run and create solder balls. Without the PNP machine, paste solder is not quite useless. But it's pretty close. It saves a little time in one way, but it creates a lot of extra work and reduces overall reliability, IMO. Inspecting every single component after baking is tedious and can be mistake-prone.

I wish I could get more use out of my reflow oven and solder paste and stencils. But they rarely save me either time or effort, and the results are certainly not an improvement.

In a way, I feel like I was duped into believing that a reflow oven was somehow going to save me time and effort, because other people are doing it. And because of threads like this. And let's face it, most of us "gear heads." For me, I could have saved the money if I hadn't had to just see for myself. I've baked maybe 30-40 boards, since I got it, and caused myself more work, if anything. And I've hand soldered several hundred faster and easier, and with a much lower (nearly nonexistent) error rate.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:36:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline packetbob

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #137 on: October 11, 2015, 12:43:14 am »
While everyone has different preferences and experiences, I find that using a solder paste dispenser and a reflow oven is way better than trying to hand solder SMD parts. I have not ever bothered with stencils as my boards are typically one offs and I can paste one up (using a dispenser) much quicker than setting up and aligning a stencil.

Though I agree with hand soldering you do see the result immediately. I have never been able to do a decent job (mind you I have shaky hands and slowly worsening eye sight) with it.

Unfortunately the air powered dispensers need compressed air but if you manage to get one setup I would think you will see the value in the reflow oven...

Or not..
YMMV...
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #138 on: October 11, 2015, 12:55:02 am »
I would use stencil and reflow for boards with lots of large, multi pin high thermal capacity connectors, maybe.
Quote
I have never been able to do a decent job
Believe it or not, there's probably a way to get great results even with shaky hands and poor eyesight. If you can place an IC on solder-pasted pads, you can hand-solder any SMD component, easily. But to do it efficiently, you do need to be pretty competent with your left-hand.

The one major advantage of solder pasting is you use only your dominant hand to do 99% of the work. This is also why it's often a waste of time (IMO) for people that can proficiently use both hands and can easily hand-solder.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:56:47 am by KL27x »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #139 on: October 11, 2015, 01:13:01 am »
Gosh, what variation in techniques. And yet... it seems to be hand solder or paste and oven. Does no-one (else) dob some paste down and then use an iron as they place parts? Not oven involved, no stencil involved, just using paste instead of solder wire.

For that kind of application these applicators seem ideal, although I guess stencils would work too (but who wants to pay for, or make, or even wait for, a stencil for a one-off board).
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #140 on: October 11, 2015, 01:19:16 am »
For that kind of application these applicators seem ideal, although I guess stencils would work too (but who wants to pay for, or make, or even wait for, a stencil for a one-off board).

I am a hobbyist so whatever I like at the moment is ideal for me :)
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Offline packetbob

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #141 on: October 11, 2015, 01:26:34 am »
Gosh, what variation in techniques. And yet... it seems to be hand solder or paste and oven. Does no-one (else) dob some paste down and then use an iron as they place parts? Not oven involved, no stencil involved, just using paste instead of solder wire.

For that kind of application these applicators seem ideal, although I guess stencils would work too (but who wants to pay for, or make, or even wait for, a stencil for a one-off board).

Actually I have used this method and probably had better luck than by using regular solder..
There are many ways to get the job done and whatever works is the best way...

The earlier poster mentioned they felt duped in a way by getting a reflow oven (I'm sure this sounds worse than he may have really felt) and trying stencils. I hope he has tried a paste dispenser before giving up on the reflow oven (Again this may not be his intention, just my interpretation of his note).
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #142 on: October 11, 2015, 01:31:39 am »
The earlier poster mentioned they felt duped in a way by getting a reflow oven (I'm sure this sounds worse than he may have really felt) and trying stencils. I hope he has tried a paste dispenser before giving up on the reflow oven (Again this may not be his intention, just my interpretation of his note).

I have had very good results with stencils and reflow oven but got tired of cleaning the stencil, squeegee and jig.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #143 on: October 11, 2015, 02:41:25 am »
Quote
Does no-one (else) dob some paste down and then use an iron as they place parts? Not oven involved, no stencil involved, just using paste instead of solder wire.
Have definitely tried this. It was fun and easy, but unless I'm super meticulous, it leaves unflowed solder paste under parts and behind the pins! And instead of applying solder paste, you can just apply flux, alone. Then touch the bare iron to the pins. Unlike solder paste, you can't "miss" or smudge or get unflowed paste anywhere with the flux and iron tip. There are soldering iron tips that are made to hold a big reservoir of solder, so applying paste solder isn't necessary, at all. All you have to do is pick up solder on the tip of the iron as you pick up the next part (or every several parts, as the case may be). Heating the joint with the iron and applying the solder wire directly to the joint may be "textbook," but that textbook was written in the 80's for use with through hole, oxidized parts, and apparently drag-soldering is plain wrong by these rules. When I do SMD soldering, "solder wire" isn't even part of the equation. I could just as well dip the tip into a pot of molten solder or touch a bit of huge 0.062" wire, or I could use the method which I happen to be currently using, which is to pick up solder from my combined cut tape part holder + "solder pickup and tip cleaning station," where I solder lengths of solder wire over a surface of bare FR-4, which collects excess flux and also cleans/rewets the tip at a touch. (If I need to remove excess solder from the tip for a drag-solder operation, I can touch the tip to the fluxy surface to rewet it and jab the iron in the air to fling the excess solder off onto this board, where I can pick up the solder balls, later). Pick up part, pick up more solder as necessary, as soon as part is lined up, jab, jab, jab, done. Same thing as placing paste, but you can't miss.

Quote
I hope he has tried a paste dispenser before giving up on the reflow oven (Again this may not be his intention, just my interpretation of his note).
I have used 3ml syringes, and tapered plastic needles, which take less pressure to dispense. Dispensing is not a problem. The problem is that it still doesn't save any time or effort for me, personally. In some cases, I fully agree that it could be preferable to stencil-pasting, particularly for low part counts or smaller boards. And of course for one-offs. But it will still be a fairly rare case where I would rather use any kind of paste solder/reflow vs regular hand-soldering.

I have said it before, and I am pretty sure I will follow though. Next time I order enough boards to justify a stencil, I will leave all multi-leaded IC's off the paste layer, because they are the parts that cause me the most egregious issues with paste/reflow, stencil or by hand.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:25:52 am by KL27x »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #144 on: October 11, 2015, 08:57:13 am »
Quote
got tired of cleaning the stencil, squeegee and jig

Yes, that's basically what puts me off too, and the waste of paste. It would be OK if it's being done often, like every day or so.

Quote
it leaves unflowed solder paste under parts and behind the pins!

Ah, yes, I've had that. The choice of paste makes a big difference. I think the problem there is the solder melts around the iron and contracts, leaving a ring of not-yet-melted balls. Ideally, they need to be sucked in as the bulk melts, so maybe it's a surface tension vs flux tackiness issue.
 

Offline cprrw132

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #145 on: October 11, 2015, 10:18:03 am »
 G'day Forum members  & visitors  I had the same requirement for a applicator Gun .
 What i came up with was this cockroach gel applicator gun .
  I did have to make a small tin plate to adapt the Soldering flux Syringe to the gun w/- the addition of a needle from a printer ink cartridge kit.
Look up www.easypestsupplies.com.au then cockroach  that leads you to the applicator gun  for Au$12.95 $10.00 freight .
 I now have 2 one I use for pin point flux placement the other  i use for applying  Petroleum jelly into bearings .
  Hope this helps .
 JOHN .
 CPR
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #146 on: October 11, 2015, 12:52:23 pm »
I get frustrated using my hand....
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #147 on: October 11, 2015, 01:56:34 pm »
Put in less paste and get less viscose paste.
This one is very soft and has a low temperature to solder very easily using hot air.
http://nl.farnell.com/edsyn/cr44/solder-paste-62-36-2-182-deg-10g/dp/876768

You can populate the entire board with simple components (0805's, SOT-23's and such large pitch stuff) and than use one of those Bosch hot air guns (with digital control) to solder the board.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 02:02:21 pm by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #148 on: October 11, 2015, 02:40:55 pm »
Thanks nanofrog. They have several tip models. Which one do you recommend for SMD work?
I only have the BON-102 (small fine point nylon brush), so I use it for everything. The brush tip truly does makes a very fine point when it's wet, so it's very nice for SMD work IME (you'll really appreciate it when drag soldering  ;)). Holds more than enough flux for PTH too (it's fine point, but the brush itself isn't micro sized, so can hold a decent amount of flux).

Prior to trying the Bonkote, I was just dipping inexpensive artist brushes into a tiny well of flux in a porcelain spot plate or using a needle bottle. Found the brush gave the most control, and I figure the brush versions will outlast the felt tips (assuming the felt used is equivalent). And all of it is less expensive than the disposable pens.  :-+



What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

So far, the best results I got were with the 835 and a small plastic bottle with a thin needle.
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #149 on: October 11, 2015, 03:04:03 pm »
What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

So far, the best results I got were with the 835 and a small plastic bottle with a thin needle.
I use both Kester 186 & 1544 in both the brush pen and a needle bottle.

Regarding the MG Chemicals 835, try thinning it out just a bit with some alcohol (or acetone; may have to do this from time to time due to evaporation).
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #150 on: October 11, 2015, 05:42:34 pm »
I do it my way:


 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #151 on: October 11, 2015, 06:14:44 pm »
and than I fry my PCB's in my TFT Teensy 3.1 controlled Toy:
 

Just for fun and joy...
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #152 on: October 11, 2015, 06:18:33 pm »
What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

So far, the best results I got were with the 835 and a small plastic bottle with a thin needle.
I use both Kester 186 & 1544 in both the brush pen and a needle bottle.

Regarding the MG Chemicals 835, try thinning it out just a bit with some alcohol (or acetone; may have to do this from time to time due to evaporation).

Thanks, I will try these options.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2015, 06:21:52 pm »
Hair Straightener - used as Hot Plate for reflow soldering of 0.4mm pitch socket -hard  to see- using micrpskope to do  the video:

Narrow pitch Panasonic socket A4S Series, (0.4mm pitch), Recommended for board-to-FPC connections of mobile equipment, such as cellular phones, smart phones, laptops, portable music players...

It can be done!
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2015, 06:33:46 pm »

What flux are you using with it?

I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

I used LOCTITE RA 10 SN62BAS86 8K  knwn as well as SN62RA10BAS86LDU 25G CART for video, but in other videos I used earlier I had Chinese paste + paste out of Jar.. Sn63/P37 is the most used cheep stuff ..
As well ALPHA CL-78 (62Sn/36Pb 2Ag.... ) I test all without pre-heating... no problems..
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #155 on: October 12, 2015, 02:46:56 am »
and than I fry my PCB's in my TFT Teensy 3.1 controlled Toy:
 

Just for fun and joy...

That's a very nice setup. The touch screen shows an image of a PCB, is it the one inside? Where did you place the camera?

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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2015, 06:10:26 am »
Holding iPhone in my hand, all video I do with iPhone, easy to send to You Tube and Avto converting to Web.
Only above video of 0.4 connector was done with TopView software and zoom lens...
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2015, 05:59:47 pm »


I tried MG Chemicals 835 but it's too sticky and clogged the head. Then I tried Kester 951 which is thinner and non sticky but doesn't wet as well as the 835.

You might need to re-calculate your dispenser output from needle tip / see table enclosed of min-max discharge at xx um :

You can see some more needles I used for test on my YouTube for reference: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbk02zm_kFNXvGvHPFDOEZw?view_as=public

I could add a speed adjustment trimmer on my dispenser -but I see no need, for now..

BR
Mike
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 07:25:55 am by mike_58 »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2015, 06:30:19 pm »
That's a very nice setup. The touch screen shows an image of a PCB, is it the one inside? Where did you place the camera?
My understanding is that this is just a static pic of some PCB and has nothing to do with the PCB in the oven. There a temperature curves drawn on top of that background which is nice and all, but the whole touchscreen thing seems to be a bit of a gimmick.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2015, 07:13:37 pm »
Correct - just a background of graph image - not the screen shot of PCB which is in reflow...
Sorry I did not read the complete question..,
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #160 on: October 12, 2015, 09:56:26 pm »
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

The dispenser I used.


The PCB after applying the solder paste.



The working PCB after reflowing in an oven and cleaning. No rework whatsoever. In retrospect I should have place more paste, some of the solder joints seem to be low on solder. Will remember it next time.


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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #161 on: October 13, 2015, 07:41:39 am »
Zapta?
How do you use this two "Push" and "Pull" buttons while applying paste and holding dispenser with one hand?
Can you shoot a Video in near future to see your toy in action?
 

Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #162 on: October 13, 2015, 08:32:21 am »
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

Where did you get the boards made?, I tried to upload the zipfile from your github to OshPark, but it didn't like it, complained about an missing outline file, got this log:

Quote
Note: Processing paste_injector_gerbers_20151010_01.zip as generic ZIP file
Failed: I can't find a board outline file.

I thought it was osh based on the color of your board ;)
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #163 on: October 13, 2015, 10:26:33 am »
Zapta?
How do you use this two "Push" and "Pull" buttons while applying paste and holding dispenser with one hand?
Can you shoot a Video in near future to see your toy in action?

I use two hands. That's why taking videos is difficult. :)

One controls the needle and the other controls the button.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 10:44:45 am by zapta »
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #164 on: October 13, 2015, 10:41:30 am »
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

Where did you get the boards made?, I tried to upload the zipfile from your github to OshPark, but it didn't like it, complained about an missing outline file, got this log:

Quote
Note: Processing paste_injector_gerbers_20151010_01.zip as generic ZIP file
Failed: I can't find a board outline file.

I thought it was osh based on the color of your board ;)

I ordered the boards in the picture from oshpark by uploading the eagle .brd file.

I then modified the design and ordered from elecrow using the .zip file, still waiting for it.

The new design is identical to the old one but has different placement for better ergonomic. For example, the Push Button is on the  center line of the syringe for better stability.

The github repository also contains the binary image that include the bootloader and the program. You need to program it via the ISP pads (I am using pogo pins adapter from sparkfun).

Once you programs the bootloader, if you want also to modify the program using the arduino IDE, you need to solder a the ftdi header and use a sparkfun FTDI Basic adapter or similar. The board looks to the IDE as an Arduion Mini Pro.

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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2015, 11:26:25 am »
I ordered the boards in the picture from oshpark by uploading the eagle .brd file.

Oh, I can upload brd files directly?
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #166 on: October 13, 2015, 01:16:33 pm »
I ordered the boards in the picture from oshpark by uploading the eagle .brd file.

Oh, I can upload brd files directly?

To oshpark, yes. This is how I always order from them. 
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Offline neslekkim

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2015, 02:21:39 pm »
Oh, I can upload brd files directly?
To oshpark, yes. This is how I always order from them.

It worked very fine, much better experience than when I ordered from seeedstudio, also very nice to get an render of everything.
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #168 on: October 15, 2015, 04:23:50 am »
Mike, just watched your "Smaller needle paste application 5V USB" video (love the music).

Like you, I also kind of tap the needle against the pad to get the pad stick. However, I found that I get better results if the end of the needle is flat against the PCB. That is, with a straight needle I hold the syringe vertical against the board.

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #169 on: October 15, 2015, 04:43:02 am »
Just stumbled upon this video. It's a DIY air pressure based solder paste applicator (no vacuum). It works very well, much faster and well defined drop than my motorized dispenser.

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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #170 on: October 16, 2015, 07:46:29 pm »
I made last weekend my first PCB with the motorized dispenser and it worked quiet well. I used T5 paste and a very thin needed. The board was of another motorized dispenser.

The dispenser I used.


The PCB after applying the solder paste.


Zapta - you may want to add this 2 Key Matrix DIY Flat Membrane Switch Control Keypad http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x40-DC-12V-1x2-2-Key-Matrix-DIY-Flat-Membrane-Switch-Control-Keypad-/271967984386?hash=item3f528e1b02:g:OssAAOSwxH1UGp9W to your toy ??   
and invite me for a drink !?
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #171 on: October 17, 2015, 06:05:39 pm »
Looking at your PCB - and Eagle .sch/brd file seams polarity is swapped in respect to standard USB cable connection? 
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #172 on: October 18, 2015, 04:04:53 pm »

Zapta - you may want to add this 2 Key Matrix DIY Flat Membrane Switch Control Keypad http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x40-DC-12V-1x2-2-Key-Matrix-DIY-Flat-Membrane-Switch-Control-Keypad-/271967984386?hash=item3f528e1b02:g:OssAAOSwxH1UGp9W to your toy ??   
and invite me for a drink !?

Thanks Mike, I actually like having the button away from the tip, for better stability. Did something similar with my vacuums manual pick and place, I control it with a pedal rather than a release hole near the tip.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #173 on: October 18, 2015, 04:07:54 pm »
Looking at your PCB - and Eagle .sch/brd file seams polarity is swapped in respect to standard USB cable connection?

The polarity and the footprint should match the USB connector listed in the BOM. If it doesn't, please let me know.  USB connectors comes with two 'polarities' or order of of the SMD pads.

https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/eagle/paste_injector_bom.csv
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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #174 on: October 18, 2015, 05:07:31 pm »
Looking at your PCB - and Eagle .sch/brd file seams polarity is swapped in respect to standard USB cable connection?

The polarity and the footprint should match the USB connector listed in the BOM. If it doesn't, please let me know.  USB connectors comes with two 'polarities' or order of of the SMD pads.

https://github.com/zapta/misc/blob/master/paste_injector/eagle/paste_injector_bom.csv
Dear Zapta,
Polarity of USB cable  is standard one.
Where did you pick  up Eagle Cad library file - for this USB connector on your PCB????  I checked with MOLLEX and to me it seams wrong - Micro USB connector   (J1   H11611CT-ND   ZX62RD-AB-5P8)    the pads should be  swapped.
See enclosed Eagle Cad - power is highlighted on screenshot enclosed. 
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #175 on: October 18, 2015, 06:05:03 pm »
It looks right to me. See this datasheet:

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/185/ed_ZX_20140804-461411.pdf

Note that the part reference is 'RD', which means 'reverser top mount'. The pattern on page 5 of the datasheet is applicable, I think.
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #176 on: October 18, 2015, 07:43:56 pm »
Where did you pick  up Eagle Cad library file - for this USB connector on your PCB????

I created it myself based on the datasheet of the connector specified in the BOM.

Used the same footprint and connector in previous projects (including data lines) with no problem.

I think the one in the BOM is Hiroshi, not the Molex you looked at.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #177 on: October 18, 2015, 08:31:01 pm »
It is not important Mollex or XY - standard USB cable must work with it and in your case it will  NOT - it will smoke  :-DMM.
see this link and compare your Eagle cad library USB with this one from here :  https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035 and open Eagle cad file and paste it to your PCB!!
Documents:

Schematic
Eagle Files
GitHub

Mike
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #178 on: October 18, 2015, 08:49:39 pm »
Quote
see this link and compare your Eagle cad library USB with this one from here :  https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035

Mike, that's a totally different manufacturer. All that matters for the cable is that the pins are the right order for the orientation of the socket. The part that Zapta uses is reversed so that you can mount it on top of the PCB and still have the cable oriented properly (to solve that problem where cables are 'upside down' on some phones, for instance).

Here:



I suggest you  look at the actual datasheet for that actual part from the actual manufacturer, and then you'll see that Zapta's layout is correct. Indeed, his use in other products without the smoke escaping suggets that he knows wtf he is doing with this, doesn't it?

I've attached the relevant diagram from the datasheet (I made a mistake before - it is page 7 rather than 5, but the  footprint is the same anyway). Maybe you could take a look at that before insisting it is something else?

 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #179 on: October 18, 2015, 09:13:06 pm »
Ok , noted, better I am wrong than PCB !!
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #180 on: October 18, 2015, 10:02:12 pm »
Ok , noted, better I am wrong than PCB !!

Mike and anybody else, if the USB connector in the BOM is hard to get or confusing, feel free to change and send me a github pull request (and having a nice manual routing if you feel like).

EDIT:  in this project I am using the micro USB connector Digikey 609-4616-1-ND (different physical footprint) which has the 'other' orientation.

https://github.com/zapta/arm/tree/master/pro-mini/board

In any case, the USB connector should have through hole mounting tab, otherwise the SMD pads peels easily.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 12:47:51 am by zapta »
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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #182 on: October 19, 2015, 11:13:31 am »
and this SMD type of USB here enclosed. (rename ending .txt to .lib)
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #183 on: October 19, 2015, 12:03:25 pm »
agh, already ordered this board from oshpark, but didn't know that an "special" usb connector was used here, will make sure to order the correct one :)
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #184 on: October 19, 2015, 03:26:32 pm »
You can download Hirose lib from this link: https://github.com/chiengineer/Eagle-Libraries/blob/11e4a75bc9876ab7e70823fd5aa7b1fb6786185f/Connectors/con-hirose.lbr
and use.

Thanks Mike. I can see a footprint for ZX62R-B-5P but it doesn't have through holes or vias, just SMD peels. From my experience, this will peel easily. My footprint has holes but I still solder it as an SMD part with reflow.

BTW, is there a standard for the orientation of the USB cable connector in relation to the PCB or the outer enclosure of the device? That is, "this side need to be 'up'"?  I had cell phones with both orientation. Personally I prefer the narrow side of the micro usb connector to  be up in the normal orientation of the device.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #185 on: October 20, 2015, 05:38:43 pm »
Hello - SEE WIKI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB
See numbering of pins ;
See Eagle which shows this pins ( if enabled in settings of Eagle !!)
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2015, 06:03:22 pm »
And this table of WIKI standard - Green!
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #187 on: October 20, 2015, 06:29:01 pm »
What's the conclusion Mike, that it doesn't work out that it works but doesn't comply with some part of the USB standard?
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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #188 on: October 20, 2015, 07:14:59 pm »
Test it - you have the cable and the connector - take some other cable and measure + / - on connector pins.. to make sure it woks with different standard cables..
USB or Universal Serial Bus standard was designed in the mid 1990 to replace old standards like serial or parallel ports.  In our days the USB connector can be found in keyboards, printers, digital cameras, flash drives, external hard drives and almost all peripheral digital equipment.

Until now three USB standards were released:

–          USB 1 released in 1996 with speeds of 1.5 Mbps for Low-Bandwidth and 12 Mbps for High-Bandwidth;

–          USB 2.0 release in 2000 is the most used usb port at the moment at supports a maximum speed of 480 Mbps;

–          USB 3.0 released in 2008 in the latest standard who can support speed up to 5Gbps.

There are 7 USB connector types: type A, type B, Mini-A, Mini-B, Micro-A,Micro-B and Micro-AB. Type A and B has 4 pins, Mini and Micro A and B has 5 pin usb pinout.
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #189 on: October 20, 2015, 07:17:42 pm »
Printout -look here
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #190 on: October 20, 2015, 07:41:08 pm »
Zapta see this - good view : https://www.pololu.com/product/2592
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #191 on: October 20, 2015, 07:42:36 pm »
DIGI - shows your connector like this:
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #192 on: October 20, 2015, 08:09:44 pm »
Zapta see this - good view : https://www.pololu.com/product/2592

Mike, what are you showing? I am somewhat confused since we know Zapta's original connector has the right footprint, is wired correctly and conforms to all USB standards. Are you  showing a different connector that he should switch to or what?
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #193 on: October 20, 2015, 08:25:59 pm »
The question from Zapta was ;
BTW, is there a standard for the orientation of the USB cable connector in relation to the PCB or the outer enclosure of the device? That is, "this side need to be 'up'"?...,
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #194 on: October 20, 2015, 08:39:13 pm »
The question from Zapta was ;
BTW, is there a standard for the orientation of the USB cable connector in relation to the PCB or the outer enclosure of the device? That is, "this side need to be 'up'"?...,

Yes. It is as shown in the photo I posted before:



The USB logo on the connector should be 'up'. You put the standard or reverse connector on the PCB to do that (so the curved part of the connector profile is 'up'). As I noted, particularly on phones and tablets, where the component side of the PCB may be screen side or non-screen side, you often find the connector upside down in relation to the body. The designer should have used the reverse connectors.

An example of the 'wrong' connector being used is the Hudl. In the photo below, the bottom item is the Hudl tablet and the top one is an LG 40 phone.
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #195 on: October 21, 2015, 09:31:09 pm »
Zapta - here more lib - Hirose : http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-search?text=Hirose+usb&type=dev%2Cpkg%2Csym&lib=usr%2Cstd&desc=1

And this is the one you are using in part list with trugh holes in pcb ?
http://www.diymodules.org/eagle-show-library?type=usr&id=1012211140.  ?
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #196 on: October 28, 2015, 01:53:29 pm »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #197 on: October 31, 2015, 05:33:43 am »
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #198 on: November 09, 2015, 05:10:30 pm »
I just posted the Arduino Motorized SMT Solder Paste Dispenser here:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1119914
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #199 on: November 09, 2015, 06:46:39 pm »
Nice. And thanks  :-+
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #200 on: November 09, 2015, 09:16:05 pm »
Well done Zapta,

I was not sleeping much - new V2 of my unit should be out soon, here the draft of improvements
- supporting structure / fixing of stepper motor will be added,
- increased stroke, 2 location fixing,.. (will be working 100 % in both directions),
- total length extended a bit
and some more exciting ideas that might get into this new version..

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 08:14:34 pm by mike_58 »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2015, 08:46:03 pm »
Hello,
I just placed new version of dispenser on eBay Germany. Anyone interested - here is the link: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Solder-Paste-Liquid-applicator-Dispenser-5V-DC-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272045911507?hash=item3f57332dd3:g:TfAAAOSwQoFWOeZn
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 08:52:09 pm by mike_58 »
 

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« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 01:19:02 pm by mike_58 »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #203 on: November 23, 2015, 01:22:56 pm »
A bit updated photos for perusal and comments are welcome !
More here;
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SMT-Solder-Paste-Glue-Liquid-Dispenser-Syrage-DC5V-USB-no-air-Lotpaste-Regler-/272054355052?hash=item3f57b4046c:g:s0IAAOSwxN5WUwsk
Here is a procedure we worked-out with one of my German Client: 
I quote the email text: 
"I didn't pre-heat the solder paste, just took it out of the fridge and let it rest for some hours at room temperature. I built up pressure until some paste came out of the needle and then released the pressure. First I tried pressing and instantly releasing again, but it was quite hard to get the right amount of paste on the pads.... It was a success with pressing and not releasing after. While the paste was slowly flowing I just did pad after pad and always got the right amount. I tried different needles and it worked even with really narrow ones. Did some DFNs, TQFPs, SSOPs, and many 0603s. Worked really neat, just had to remind me to build new pressure once in a while :)
I like the dispenser and I'm happy to finally leave my toothpick method behind me :)  ""
Best regards,
xxxxxxxxx

So it is working well ...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 01:27:41 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #204 on: November 23, 2015, 01:43:25 pm »
Quote
While the paste was slowly flowing I just did pad after pad and

That description - from getting it out of the fridge to putting it away again - is exactly how I've been doing it by hand. My expectation is that a gizmo like yours would make the process better - quicker, or more accurate, or... well, something! Being able to pause between pads, for instance (which implies a button stab delivers a small and distinct amount, then nothing). Otherwise I am not sure why I would want to buy this and have a load more training hassles, plus ongoing maintenance, just to be able to do what I can do without it.
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #205 on: November 24, 2015, 02:31:43 pm »
All commands are in your hand, You can chose smaller drops - use appropriate needle, /  You can release pressure - and take a coffee brake and than continue and there is almost no maintenance needed... Surly it is mauch faster than pressing paste out of syringe with your hand finger. 
 
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #206 on: November 24, 2015, 02:45:08 pm »
Quote
Surly it is mauch faster than pressing paste out of syringe with your hand finger

I would have thought so. No, 'hoped so'. But the post I references seems to suggest not, so I don't actually know, hence why I made the comment :)

 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #207 on: November 24, 2015, 02:55:26 pm »
That description - from getting it out of the fridge to putting it away again - is exactly how I've been doing it by hand. My expectation is that a gizmo like yours would make the process better - quicker, or more accurate, or... well, something!

I am using a similar motorized arrangement and I think it's more accurate and faster than pressing by hand.

The trick is to adjust the push speed such that it creates a very slow and consistent flow out of the needle (I am using #22), I didn't measure it but around 0.5mm/sec (I am guessing here). Then you go from pad to pad and tap them with the tip of the needle, tapping larger pads a few times as needed.
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #208 on: November 24, 2015, 03:18:43 pm »
Quote
The trick is to...

OK. I just envisioned it as placing discrete blobs per button press. I accept that might be wishful thinking, but that kind of thing is what drives someone to make stuff :)
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #209 on: November 24, 2015, 03:35:28 pm »
Quote
The trick is to...

OK. I just envisioned it as placing discrete blobs per button press. I accept that might be wishful thinking, but that kind of thing is what drives someone to make stuff :)

The videos I saw of pneumatic dispenser show them placing beautiful individual drops of paste. The motorized one are much slower because of the gear ratio and the free play in the system so I don't think that individual drops are possible.

I am still holding my breath for Robenz's solution (hint) ;-)
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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #210 on: November 24, 2015, 06:05:15 pm »
What Does Robenz Stand For ?? - Link please if possible ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/60/   ??
Thanks,
Mike
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 06:09:52 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #211 on: November 24, 2015, 06:29:32 pm »
What Does Robenz Stand For ?? - Link please if possible ?
robrenz is another member who's a top notch machinist.   :-+ He's come up with some amazing stuff; browse his posts and you'll see what we're on about.  ;)
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #212 on: November 24, 2015, 06:30:54 pm »
What Does Robenz Stand For ?? - Link please if possible ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/solder-pasteflux-manual-syringe-applicator/60/   ??
Thanks,
Mike

He is a member here with mechanical design experience,. He mentioned that he may look for a compact solution that doesn't require air pressure supply
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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #213 on: November 24, 2015, 09:24:27 pm »
Quote
Otherwise I am not sure why I would want to buy this
Accuracy. And don't tell me your thumb never gets tired. :

If I wanted to paste by hand, I would probably try one of these. But even watching the compressed air variety in action, I can't imagine getting much utility out of dotting every pad by hand.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 01:37:26 am by KL27x »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #214 on: November 25, 2015, 04:42:20 am »
Quote
Accuracy. And don't tell me your thumb never gets tired.

I don't see there is a change in accuracy, but my thumb can get tired. On the other hand, I use raw paste and not the diluted stuff recommended for these, so perhaps if I used that then my thumb would be OK.

I think it would likely be a step forward, but not quite the quantum leap I dream of :)
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #215 on: November 25, 2015, 04:47:34 am »
I think it would likely be a step forward, but not quite the quantum leap I dream of :)

Regardless, it's fun to build it :)
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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #216 on: November 26, 2015, 08:24:35 pm »
I think it would likely be a step forward, but not quite the quantum leap I dream of :)
What more that this here :     
are you looking for ??
0.41 mm EU/ 27 gauge US size metal needle used  for solder paste application..
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 08:28:48 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #217 on: November 26, 2015, 09:00:31 pm »
Ahh, love at first paste. This is the most emotional soldering video I have seen in a long while. :)

Is this Sinatra "My Way?"* And why does Youtube not edit out your music? Do you pay royalties for bringing us this entertainment?

*Neermind. I thought something sounded familiar. Post #150
Quote
I do it my way:

« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 09:08:03 pm by KL27x »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #218 on: November 26, 2015, 10:02:10 pm »
That USB syringe dispenser seems to  be interesting to hook up with CNC machine to paste boards cheap :D
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #219 on: November 26, 2015, 11:00:02 pm »
No output on that model ..
This one might be better for CNC but its still under development & testing ...
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #220 on: November 26, 2015, 11:56:49 pm »
Ahh, love at first paste. This is the most emotional soldering video I have seen in a long while. :)

Is this Sinatra "My Way?"* And why does Youtube not edit out your music? Do you pay royalties for bringing us this entertainment?

Not to mention that Mike is playing it with one hand while applying paste with the other.  Awesome.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #221 on: December 01, 2015, 11:47:44 am »
I came across this web page - might be interesting to some of you guys: http://www.diyouware.com/node/174
and this Change unipolar 28BYJ-48 to bipolar stepper motor  http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html
might be useful to get more power/torque out unipolar stepper ....
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 05:44:00 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #222 on: December 11, 2015, 07:23:24 pm »
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 07:55:03 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline peekay

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #223 on: December 14, 2015, 09:12:22 pm »
I purchased a USB Extruder Solder Paste Dispenser from the Mike Store on Tindie.com.

I received the dispenser after some delays in Canadian customs (the seller offered AMAZING support). The unit is solid and well built and fits well in the hand. I bought the dispenser for my first SMD project so I had high expectations and I was not disappointed. It took a few tries getting used to the operation of the buttons, getting the paste warm enough and choosing the correct dispensing needle. In 15 mins I was dispensing paste on 0402 and bigger pads without any problems (except for my eyesight!). This unit is now one of my go-to tools for building my small-run prototype SMD boards. I received the "older" version of the dispenser and the newest model looks to be even better. I highly recommend this unit.

 :)
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #224 on: December 15, 2015, 12:37:19 pm »
Thanks Peekay - Im glad my dispenser works great for you!!
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #225 on: December 15, 2015, 05:16:34 pm »
Hello all - here I found interesting approach with lots of reality incorporated in this SmartDispenser - NO AIR !!
http://gentec-benelux.com/airfree/ 

LDS9000 et SmartDispenser

Sturdy precision machined screw and precision motor assure zero backlash during operation which eliminates any leak in the hydraulic line chance of pressure loss.
The stepper motor is directly engaged with the screw eliminating lags and backlash, and is preventing any chance of pressure loss.
Patented Precision machined Piston Stabilizer holds the piston straight in the reservoir, eliminating any chance of pressure loss.
PosiLok™ Quick Release threaded hub and piston allow zero slippage between the piston and drive rod, eliminating any chance of pressure loss.
PosiLok™ Quick Release threaded hub and piston allow zero slippage between the piston and drive rod, eliminating any chance of pressure loss.
NoFlex™ Linear Drive Technology gives you the accurate and repeatable method of positive displacement you want without the headache of pneumatic systems. There is no need to flush chambers or valves. Formulations stay untouched in safe, silicone-free barrel reservoirs with this revolutionary new system. You can change fluids or volumes with ease. Unlike AirPulse™ machines, this intelligent dispensing system knows the barrel size, volume and the dispense rate. The result: you get a process control that is unachievable with AirPulse™ systems. profitability.

SmartDispenser™ uses air-free, linear-drive dispense technology to achieve the highest repeatability when dispensing assembly fluids. This technology allows manufacturers to establish one dispense program globally, with no change to fluid deposits. By standardizing dispense programs per product, manufacturers reduce the cost of product validation. The technology also eliminates fluid waste, rework, rejects, and costly air compressors, thus maximizing
By integrating the Windows 7 platform into its technology, each SmartDispenser™ system can be networked to a desktop, laptop, smartphone, or another SmartDispenser™. This technology gives you the ability to monitor live video feeds and real time production data, and enables.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #226 on: December 15, 2015, 05:27:46 pm »
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #227 on: December 15, 2015, 05:44:41 pm »
It is for sure not in price range of my Dispenser, it comes with a magic box -controller...
http://gentec-benelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/CATALOG-GENTEC.pdf
BUT THE POINT IS STEPPER DRIVEN SOLDER PASTE DISPENSER WILL TAKE LEAD in dispensing - AIR REQUIREMENT IS NIGHTMARE TO ME!!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 05:47:08 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #228 on: December 16, 2015, 10:40:25 am »
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Try this one : http://online.flipbuilder.com/rjbj/pjpy/#p=1 
Enclosed as well table of Volume Chart  ...
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #229 on: December 16, 2015, 10:49:11 am »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #230 on: December 17, 2015, 09:00:38 pm »
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Hello Zapta - I asked for data /here reply to my/your price Question:
Fishman has 18 different applications for fluid dispensers,  they range from $9,000 - $12,000.
If you would like to proceed with a quote, we will need more information from you.
*Address
*Industry 
*What are you dispensing?
It is Fishman Corporation policy that all our potential new clients be scheduled for a conference call with one of our dispensing technicians. This gives them a better understanding of your dispensing needs.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2015, 09:28:57 pm »
Here some photos of my today work -looking good to me... Needle Gauge 23-24     (Inside Dia 0.38 -0.41 mm?)
http://wordpress.mencinger.biz/
video here: https://youtu.be/o4PbVOhY2UQ
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 08:32:15 am by mike_58 »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #232 on: December 20, 2015, 11:09:40 pm »
Looks expensive, how much? Would be interesting to buy just the dispenser and build a DIY controller for it.
Hello Zapta - I asked for data /here reply to my/your price Question:
Fishman has 18 different applications for fluid dispensers,  they range from $9,000 - $12,000.
If you would like to proceed with a quote, we will need more information from you.
*Address
*Industry 
*What are you dispensing?
It is Fishman Corporation policy that all our potential new clients be scheduled for a conference call with one of our dispensing technicians. This gives them a better understanding of your dispensing needs.

Just to clarify, as it wasn't immediately apparent to me, the unquoted text starting from "Fishman has..." was the text of the response by Fishman corp.  For a minute, I thought mike was representing Fishman products.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #233 on: December 21, 2015, 07:14:39 pm »
Hello - good point !   Definitely I'm not representing Fishrman Corp.....
 

Offline xebbmw

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #234 on: December 21, 2015, 09:30:59 pm »
I came across this web page Change unipolar 28BYJ-48 to bipolar stepper motor  http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html
might be useful to get more power/torque out unipolar stepper ....
@Zapta: would be interesting to test your dispenser by using the same motor but with a higher torque. I guess you would need to change the driver to a bipolar driver for the motor.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 02:28:17 pm by xebbmw »
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #235 on: December 21, 2015, 09:59:25 pm »
The   28ybj-48     stepper motor would need to me slightly modified to be used as bipolar stepper motor - in addition there is integrated tention clutch in that motor - see video -
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #236 on: December 27, 2015, 08:51:55 am »
Change unipolar 28BYJ-48 to bipolar stepper motor
http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #237 on: December 27, 2015, 10:31:38 am »
My understanding is that you don't even need to modify the stepper to use it as bipolar stepper. Just leave the red wire unconnected. Doesn't hurt to cut the trace though if you don't intend to use it as unipolar stepper.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/overview
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #238 on: December 27, 2015, 11:29:50 am »
Correct, but you need to change from ULN2003 to L239D driver!
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #239 on: December 27, 2015, 11:44:16 am »
Sure. That's also clearly described in both of the links (with and without cutting the trace).
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #240 on: December 27, 2015, 04:50:57 pm »
My understanding is that you don't even need to modify the stepper to use it as bipolar stepper. Just leave the red wire unconnected. Doesn't hurt to cut the trace though if you don't intend to use it as unipolar stepper.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/overview
Why don't you try some other gear & bi-polar stepper motor if Trying is the first step towards failure ?
Canada: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/R119573-BAS-Bioanalytical-Systems-Beehive-MD-1001-uL-Min-1ml-Syringe-Pump-/391306678916?hash=item5b1bb21284
Tip: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271938887974?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 06:16:15 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #241 on: December 27, 2015, 04:58:33 pm »
Correct, but you need to change from ULN2003 to L239D driver!

I think you also need to increase the voltage, otherwise you get half the current and double the number of turns so no chance. Unless if you manage to have the two halves in parallel in the right polarity.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #242 on: December 27, 2015, 05:19:23 pm »
Works fine to me on 4 wire 5V -
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #243 on: December 27, 2015, 05:48:06 pm »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271938887974?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Motor Code MICRO MO Electronics Inc AM1524-2R-V-12-150-07  next line 15/5S262:1  Seam like 262 :1 gear ratio.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #244 on: December 27, 2015, 11:50:33 pm »
Works fine to me on 4 wire 5V -

Yes, but does it really give significantly more torque since it uses now roughly half the current?
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #245 on: December 28, 2015, 08:11:28 am »
Quote from: zapta
Yes, but does it really give significantly more torque since it uses now roughly half the current?
[/quote
You can find your answer here:
http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/change-unipolar-28byj-48-to-bipolar.html
"Finally, most importantly, my torque test resulted in :

800gcm !!

which is at least twice as much as full stepping unipolar (380gcm) and almost 3x more powerful than my half stepping unipolar test (300gcm)

Basically, if I cut one wire in the motor, it gains almost 3 times its original strength."
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #246 on: December 28, 2015, 08:24:50 am »
But that 800gcm is not with 5v :)

The torque gain comes from going from 4v (the ULN Darlington has 1v drop) to 9v.
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Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #247 on: December 28, 2015, 02:24:32 pm »
There are several versions of this motors 5V and 12V.......  - see https://grahamwideman.wikispaces.com/Motors-+28BYJ-48+Stepper+motor+notes
Torque results
See All torques in gram-force * cm.

Most notably:
Note 1: My test for pull-out get to about 200g x 10cm, and at that point broke teeth in the gear train. See images below.
Note 2: Neither Adafruit nor RioRand [as of current writing] list a pull-in spec, a spec which is crucial for actually moving a load.
Note 3: Adafruit's spec for pull-out torque is low by a factor of six! That is, the motor is six times more powerful (in holding) than Adafruit says it is.
Note 4: Perhaps unsurprisingly, the RioRand 5V motor's pull-in torque was about 4x that of the Adafruit 5V motor, corresponding to the 4x greater step-down gearing.
Broken teeth while testing pull-out torque......
 

Offline moya034

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #248 on: December 28, 2015, 06:32:41 pm »
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.
 

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #249 on: December 28, 2015, 07:27:07 pm »
Juup - moving with the flow!
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #250 on: December 28, 2015, 07:58:26 pm »
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.
Please consider next time from here: http://www.mencinger.biz/ShopWeb.html
Thanks
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 04:10:39 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #251 on: December 28, 2015, 09:53:54 pm »
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.

Please let us know how it works for you.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline jangeox

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #252 on: December 29, 2015, 08:43:32 am »
Let me move with the flow just one more time  ;)
I'm the one who made the video where I cut the wire. It's true that it will also work without cutting it, but if you want a real bipolar motor, you should. Someone commented on my vid suggesting there's no need to cut it because the voltage will be the same in theory on both cuts. I measured it out, and it's true when the motor is running freely. It's not true when you add some load to it (which you always do, right?). I didn't test the torque with the wire not cut, but since there was a voltage (which means loss of power) , it might be a bit less torque.
I should point out that the actual voltage in the test was not 9V , but a rechargeble 9V battery which only provides 8.2V. The motor never overheated, so you could easily add more voltage (10-12V) and get more torque.
Later tests with the same driver chip and 24V  + other software (I programmed an Arduino sketch) gave +30% torque when I simulated a chopper driver (a bit like a constant current driver) , I don't have exact results from that test anymore.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #253 on: December 29, 2015, 12:19:36 pm »
Jangeox, any estimation of the torque increase if you stay with 5V?
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #254 on: December 29, 2015, 03:21:06 pm »
I see the thread here has taken a turn from the original question, but figured I'd share this dispenser, (Loctite brand for $35USD), I Just ordered it last week, should get it anyday:

https://www.all-spec.com/products/98815.html

Allspec also sells the Loctite needles in a variety of gauges.
My first steps were with modification of this gun: - http://www.bison.net/en/products/659-glue-tools/product/838-glue-gun-hobby/ 
this Glue stick Gun is very cheap and can help!
 
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #255 on: January 03, 2016, 05:45:51 pm »
Just stumbled upon this one. Not manual and not cheap but interesting nevertheless.

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #256 on: January 03, 2016, 07:59:32 pm »
Well - I can not compare my work with above but there is a challenge in it!
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #257 on: January 04, 2016, 08:16:55 am »
Lots to learn here<
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #258 on: January 06, 2016, 09:29:59 am »
See this: IT WORKS GOOD enough!

 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #259 on: January 13, 2016, 09:33:04 pm »
Hello,
Here the V3 - R1 of softwere working;


I hope you like it!
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #260 on: January 19, 2016, 08:37:23 pm »
A short video about good & bad (dray & hard) solder paste and how to get hard solder paste back in shape;
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #261 on: January 19, 2016, 08:40:09 pm »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #262 on: January 23, 2016, 10:03:27 pm »
2bar office cleaner - Spray Duster pressure and stepper test:
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #263 on: January 23, 2016, 10:14:11 pm »
2bar office cleaner - Spray Duster pressure and stepper test:

Can you explain how does it work?

I see the spray can pressurizing the syringe but the nozzle seems to come out of the motor coupler, not the syringe.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #264 on: January 23, 2016, 10:27:53 pm »
it is based on see video « Reply #257 on: January 04, 2016, 07:16:55 PM » you will find all explanations there.
Stepper is driven by 5V USB my Dispenser V3 sketch ... 
Twice in this video I add some pressure to paste in syringe. Pressure is needed only for filling up auger housing, the rest is done by stepper.
Anything else you need to know - ask- I try to explain.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 10:29:49 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #265 on: February 01, 2016, 05:58:34 pm »
I was curious of the pressure inside the Spray Duster, so I purchased a cheap gauge to measure the pressure and I was surprised by getting the read out of almost 2,5 bar!!
see photo attached 
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #266 on: February 03, 2016, 08:37:10 am »
That USB syringe dispenser seems to  be interesting to hook up with CNC machine to paste boards cheap :D

Alex wired the stepper motor directly to the 3d printer driver (re-placed the filament extrusion stepper motor) & controls dispensing from my 5V USB dispenser V3 from the syringe with normal G-CODE (extract/retract commands) !!

 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #267 on: February 03, 2016, 08:50:17 am »
A short video about good & bad (dray & hard) solder paste and how to get hard solder paste back in shape; 
One advice, with only stirring as shown in the video it will not always result in a good usable paste.
You better get a little out you want to use and really crush the paste so that there are no larger blobs in it, else your needle will get easily constipated.
Also I wonder if flux is needed (since the flux itself will not evaporate) or the dissolvent which is IPA. With only a few drops it will probably not matter.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #268 on: February 03, 2016, 08:58:00 am »
Hello,
This is first test, which needs further testing before going to PCBs...  For this test the 5V dispenser was a bit modified to enable bolting to header and controlled by existing hardware on existing 3D printer....
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 06:50:56 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #269 on: February 04, 2016, 04:50:24 pm »
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #270 on: February 04, 2016, 06:59:29 pm »
Hello Zapta,

Thanks for the link!!
You got me into this here Zapta! - So lately I have so many orders I can not live my normal life anymore I dream and soldering with my Dispenser... 
V1 and V2 are Arduino free.
V3 has Arduino involved and ISP for updating software needs ( as on my web-page).

"Technology is nothing. What’s important is that you have a faith in people, that they’re basically good and smart, and if you give them tools, they’ll do wonderful things with them.  –Steve Jobs"
Have a great day!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 10:43:25 pm by mike_58 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #271 on: February 06, 2016, 03:05:51 am »
Hello Zapta,

Thanks for the link!!
You got me into this here Zapta! - So lately I have so many orders I can not live my normal life anymore I dream and soldering with my Dispenser... 
V1 and V2 are Arduino free.
V3 has Arduino involved and ISP for updating software needs ( as on my web-page).

If in the field firmware upgrade is important, you may want to consider for V4 using a LPC11U35 or similar. They can be upgraded by connecting to any computer with a standard USB cable and no special software, just a standard file copy to the device, acting as a USB flash drive.

I can send you a free ARM PRO MINI if you want to play with that MCU and then you can design your custom board.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #272 on: February 06, 2016, 11:13:43 pm »
Hello,
I appreciate your support, but my goal was and still is to keep it simple, there is one available here -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3nPmiECDfg   
-seams lots of electronics in it - I really do not want to end up with so complicated item in one hand... :-)



“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.”
? Ernst F. Schumacher
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 05:03:26 am by mike_58 »
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #273 on: February 21, 2016, 11:11:58 am »
This might be interesting to watch - One of my tests
Dispenser 5V USB suction of paste into empty syringe: HARD WAY;


And here - Dispenser 5V USB filling next syringe with valve - pushing paste into next syringe;  EASY WAY;
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #274 on: April 23, 2016, 06:26:07 am »
Hello,
Latest (but not last) video here:
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #275 on: April 30, 2016, 10:54:56 pm »
Just stumbled over this kickstarter campaign. It's actually meant as repair device for SLA printed stuff, but can be used for solder paste application as well:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/3dfacture/fixer-a-professional-3d-print-finish-repair-and-gl/description
Campaign is over though...
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline mike_58

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #276 on: May 01, 2016, 06:32:00 am »
nice but larger than my and capacity of syringe is up to 2ml only (my is up to 15ml)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 06:34:11 am by mike_58 »
 

Offline dmmt40

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Re: Solder paste/flux manual syringe applicator
« Reply #277 on: May 01, 2016, 08:58:30 pm »
Hey what's up, wow it's nice to see lots of people creating projects and interested in dispensing, I'm right in the middle of manufacturing the first batch of my own design, I thought it was a very niche market but it's encouraging to see even that Kickstarter product got funded, now I'm more confident mine will sell too.

Anyway some comments on the Fixer3D:

First of all, volume. As mike pointed out, it's very small. Maybe not a big deal when using solder pastes but with adhesives you can go through a syringe quite quickly. It's definitely intended for occasional use only.

Then about UV curing, I actually have quite a bit of experience on this field (that's part of what I do for a living) and the main problem I see is the intensity of the LED, I think this will greatly limit the kind of  resins you can use and the total area.
When curing adhesives in two non-transparent "substrates" you need lots of light to cure all the way through. Having said that, since this is really just intended for repairs and maybe gluing some small parts I think it'll fine. Worst case scenario you'll have to let your parts out in the sun for a couple of minutes.

Another point, why do I need a computer for changing my dispensing parameters? any gain in usability from having it battery powered goes out the window when I have to mess around with the computer to fine tune the dispensing. I know it stores the settings in memory but it becomes a hurdle for the user when using it for the first time.

And finally, price. It's looks to be around 100-130$ which seems reasonable but when you consider that the sun can do the same job for free, and you can apply drops of resin directly from a n