Amscope: Focusable eyepieces (SM-4NTP) or integrated diopters (SM-4TP)?

[Bob_McBob]

I'm finally ordering a decent soldering microscope. The Amscope trinocular simul-focal double boom arm models seem very popular, but they come in two variants. The SM-4NTP has focusable eyepieces and a locking zoom setting, and the SM-4TP has integrated dual diopters. They are priced similarly and have nearly identical specifications, with no distinction made between them in discussions, so I'm having a hard time figuring out which one I should get.

I seem to recall reading that integrated diopters can be a point of failure with zoom optic microscopes, while focusable eyepieces are more expensive to replace, but beyond that I have no idea how the two compare.

[thm_w]

You'll basically only be using the WF10x/20 eyepieces for electronics, so it doesn't matter if those stay in there. You can get WF10x/23 adjustable eyepieces for $40-60 on aliexpress, so I wouldn't worry about breaking them.. I've never heard of that being a problem.

I would choose whichever position you prefer the zoom knob in, one has it at the front and one is more toward the back. Either way after that green20 coupon code its only $420 which is quite cheap.

[Bob_McBob]

You'll basically only be using the WF10x/20 eyepieces for electronics, so it doesn't matter if those stay in there. You can get WF10x/23 adjustable eyepieces for $40-60 on aliexpress, so I wouldn't worry about breaking them.. I've never heard of that being a problem.

I would choose whichever position you prefer the zoom knob in, one has it at the front and one is more toward the back. Either way after that green20 coupon code its only $420 which is quite cheap.

I agree, the eyepieces somehow breaking isn't a realistic concern; it was literally all I could come up with as a point of comparison in a day searching around discussions. And I only found a single mention of the distinction between the two models, in a random watch forum post that didn't really answer anything.

I did get a reply from Amscope. First they state the obvious, that the NTP model has the zoom lock (which is accessed by tool and doesn't seem all that useful). About the difference in optics: "The focusable eyepieces are more forgiving as they can compensate for any defects in the prism and stereo head objective optics. Otherwise, they will operate very similarly." I'm not really sure why they continue to sell both models, but it sounds like they're saying the NTP version is more tolerant of manufacturing defects, which I suppose is worth consideration with these budget microscopes.

On the other hand, I did notice that both models come with WF10x/20 eyepieces. Is that something I should consider upgrading to a wider FOV? Seems like the AE eyepieces from e.g. Eakins are a mix of focusable and non-focusable, with 10x often being focusable. Not sure I will ever want to try a 5x or 20x eyepiece on this particular microscope, but it is more limited without the integrated diopters.

Kind of wish I didn't have the choice to make in the first place 

[jfiresto]

I did get a reply from Amscope...: "The focusable eyepieces are more forgiving as they can compensate for any defects in the prism and stereo head objective optics. Otherwise, they will operate very similarly."

That is a curious answer as eyepiece diopter adjustments or eyepiece tube diopter adjustments usually just effectively shorten or lengthen the tubes to focus the whole eyepiece optical train on the intermediate images that nominally, typically form ca. 10mm down from the tube ends. AFAIK, the microscope makers migrated the diopter adjustments to one or both eyepieces to cut the system cost. Different makers have chosen different depths. Having diopter adjustments on the eyepiece tubes may let you use nicer, non-adjustable eyepieces, or adjustable eyepieces with a reticle – that were designed for a different microscope.

I did notice that both models come with WF10x/20 eyepieces. Is that something I should consider upgrading to a wider FOV?

10X/20 or even 10X/21 are generally not considered wide field for 30mm diameter eyepieces. I have not yet read or heard of anyone who has been unhappy with a wider field of view. Will Amscope let you modify the order to get that? If I were ordering, I would ask.

[Bob_McBob]

That is a curious answer as eyepiece diopter adjustments or eyepiece tube diopter adjustments usually just effectively shorten or lengthen the tubes to focus the whole eyepiece optical train on the intermediate images that nominally, typically form ca. 10mm down from the tube ends. AFAIK, the microscope makers migrated the diopter adjustments to one or both eyepieces to cut the system cost. Different makers have chosen different depths. Having diopter adjustments on the eyepiece tubes may let you use nicer, non-adjustable eyepieces, or adjustable eyepieces with a reticle – that were designed for a different microscope.

It is a curious answer for sure. It's also my understanding that all they do is shifting the position of the eyepiece optics, one way or another. Seems like whatever OEM makes most of these microscopes has been moving towards focusable eyepieces. It's certainly easier to find focusable WF10x/22 and WF10x/23 on AE.

10X/20 or even 10X/21 are generally not considered wide field for 30mm diameter eyepieces. I have not yet read or heard of anyone who has been unhappy with a wider field of view. Will Amscope let you modify the order to get that? If I were ordering, I would ask.

I found it pretty hard to get in touch with Amscope. I actually got those replies from them on Amazon. May be worth inquiring about swapping the eyepieces I suppose.

[Bob_McBob]

I had a good chat with a very helpful Amscope rep on Facebook. They basically said there is no meaningful performance difference between the two versions. The best reason they could offer for choosing the TP version is that future eyepiece upgrades may be cheaper, and there's more selection at other magnifications. So it mostly comes down to what you plan to do in that respect, as well as really basic stuff like where you prefer the knob position as well as whether the zoom lock is useful to you.

Since I was frustrated not finding some of this info, here are a few extrapoints for future readers:

• Both the TP and NTP now have the mounting groove for the LED ring light on the shroud (the TP originally didn't).
• They can't substitute the eyepieces in the kit. You'll probably want to upgrade to WF10x/22 or WF10x/23.
• The double boom mount unfortunately now has the larger base shown on the actual product page, regardless of which version you order. Previously it had a much smaller base that took up less desk space, but was unstable at maximum extension.

Oh, and the GREEN20 coupon is available until Thursday.

[thm_w]

On the other hand, I did notice that both models come with WF10x/20 eyepieces. Is that something I should consider upgrading to a wider FOV? Seems like the AE eyepieces from e.g. Eakins are a mix of focusable and non-focusable, with 10x often being focusable. Not sure I will ever want to try a 5x or 20x eyepiece on this particular microscope, but it is more limited without the integrated diopters.

Buy it with the WF10x/20, then once you've tried it out consider WF10x/23 from AE. I doubt amscope sells them for a reasonable price. 
I would say many people don't really care about FOV, so you could be happy with it as is. But if you are using the microscope for long hours it can help for comfort.

There is no point in using 5x or 20x eyepieces on this type of microscope. But you may want a 0.3x, 0.75x, or some other barlow than the included 0.5x to play with working distance. Again, just buy them from AE not amscope.

[jfiresto]

I had a good chat with a very helpful Amscope rep on Facebook. They basically said there is no meaningful performance difference between the two versions. The best reason they could offer for choosing the TP version is that future eyepiece upgrades may be cheaper, and there's more selection at other magnifications....

For $14 more, less coupon and plus tax, I would get the -TP version because of that, and in case you want to use an adjustable eyepiece with a reticle. Having two cascaded diopter adjustments (in the eyepiece tube and in the eyepiece) will let you superimpose the reticle in sharp focus on the sample image, and then bring the combined image in sharp eye focus on that eye.

[twist3r]

I'm sorry that I'm going to revive this old topic.

I want to order a microscope from within EU, and the package will be delievered to an address in Germany.

I wanted to buy SM-4TP model, but then again, I saw there is a model with an 'N' that exist, the SM-4NTP model. (thats how I got to this topic).

At first I had to decide (which I still didn't ) should I go with regular (beige version) or Black edition. Black editon iinclude led light and 0.5 Barlow lens. I was thinking if I buy regular (beige) one, I could order led light and Barlow lense together to be put in the same package.
But something drives me to think, should it be good idea to buy a black edition because...'its black'.  Then again, would that make a difference? I mean...while soldering...should it be 'better' for my peripheral vision to notice things if the microscope is in beige color and not black?

Thats what I wanted to ask you in the first place, and I'll be happy to hear your thoughts.

But now, I have to decide should I buy SM-4TP or SM-4NTP version?

Thing is, I would buy it from seller based in Germany (Welectron) or the seller based in Netherland (EleShop.eu). The idea is to pay once, and not have any extra costs once the package arrive (since VAT would be paid with the order and both countries are parts of EU).
But both websites offer only the SM-4TP model.

So, now my order is kinda on hold, until I decide with which model (SM4-TP or SM4-NTP) and which color (beige or black) should I go with.

Can you help me decide?

These are the links I plan to buy from:
https://www.welectron.com/Elezoom-SM-4TP-Stereo-Microscope
https://eleshop.eu/szm7045xt-stl2.html

To admins: I hope links are allowed. If not, please remove them.

Thanks!

btw. And yes, I did try checking at Amazon.de, but there is only AmScope that sells that microscope and its also shipped by AmScope. Since I didn't want 'suprises' like extra payment for VAT or things like that,  I don't want to order from them.
But there is no Elezoom brand at Amazon.de, or Eakins brand. So, I think, once I decide, the order will be placed at one of the websites I linked above. (most probabbly Welectron).
Anyone bought anything from Welectron?

[thm_w]

Well the black color part is your personal preference. I prefer it, less reflected light, but I wouldn't pay much more for it.

Ignoring that its €83 for a LED ring light and 0.5x barlow, in that package.
If bought alone barlow is  €32, LED is  €65. So there is no point in ordering all of those separately from them as it will be more expensive. Though same items can be had for less on aliexpress.

Personally not a fan of cheap LED ring light, I prefer higher CRI, but its fine for most people.

[twist3r]

Ok, thanks for the answer.

Thing about black version is that they only sell it if bought with led light and Barlow lens.

What about SM4-TP vs SM4-NTP ?
Which one would (did) you pick(ed)?

btw. can you link the high CRI led light model?

[ftg]

I got the Black Edition from Eleshop.EU and it's fine.
My thread about getting it and other people's opinions about similar scopes here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/eleshop-sm-4tp-stereo-microscope-any-experience/

[jfiresto]

What about SM4-TP vs SM4-NTP ?
Which one would (did) you pick(ed)?

The last time someone asked – and bear in mind I do not have an Amscope – I suggested the SM4-TP because it was only 14 euros more and had diopter adjustments on the tubes that would let you use a wider selection of oculars. Since then, I took my own advice and got a beat up looking,  old-fashioned head with dual-diopter adjustments – that let me use a pair of nice, fixed focused Leica eyepieces that someone had claimed were parfocal with my microscope's newer header but were not.

[thm_w]

Thing about black version is that they only sell it if bought with led light and Barlow lens.

Yeah its a package deal, so if you care about the color go for it.

btw. can you link the high CRI led light model?

Its home made, similar design as PDL one reviewed here:


he reviewed a few types. Cheap ones are OK for starting out though.

[twist3r]

Thanks for your respond guys!

I got the Black Edition from Eleshop.EU and it's fine.

Anything that you really don't like so far about that model?

btw. are the ajustment knobs closer to you or further away from you?
From what I saw, the SM-4TP model has knobs further away from you and SM4-NTP knobs are closer to you.

Oh, and did the heavy plate you received with the microscope from EleShop completely wide(r) and flat, or is the same like the ones from AmScope models?

The last time someone asked[– and bear in mind I do not have an Amscope – I suggested the SM4-TP

So, do you still suggest SM4-TP model (over the SM4-NTP one)?

btw. the microscope that I'm looking at, is not an AmScope, but probably a clone of AmScope.
The brand is Elezoom, and it has the same model name as AmScope (maybe it is being made in the same factory?)

Thing about black version is that they only sell it if bought with led light and Barlow lens.

Yeah its a package deal, so if you care about the color go for it.

Too bad that black version is available only as a package deal.
I've checked AmScope website and it seams they have a 'shop' for EU citizens at their 'eu' subdomain: EU.AmsSope.com
The warehouse is located in Netherland (if I understood their 'shipping' page).
But the problem is...they do not offer black edition as a 'whole'. They had black microscope heads (SM-4TP & SM-4NTP), but they are sold out.

Thanks for the youtube link! Yes, PDL looks great.

[jfiresto]

The last time someone asked[– and bear in mind I do not have an Amscope – I suggested the SM4-TP

So, do you still suggest SM4-TP model (over the SM4-NTP one)?

I would if you plan to use the microscope for a while and the cost difference is minor. You will probably want to replace the eyepieces if they are 10X/20 and the 4TP's adjustments will give you more choices.

btw. the microscope that I'm looking at, is not an AmScope, but probably a clone of AmScope.
The brand is Elezoom, and it has the same model name as AmScope (maybe it is being made in the same factory?)

Their SM4-TP looked reasonable, although I quickly spotted a bit of obvious cost cutting in their assembly video, that the vertical post the head slides on to could be longer, and that you need a tool to fix the eyepieces in their tubes and the head-and-cradle to the end of the boom stand. I also wonder where they might use copper compression rings. The assembler appears to mount the base backwards.  I would think the curved side should be toward the microscope and the thick, rectangular counterweight away from it: so that they can do their jobs.

The SM4-TP datasheet states the eyepiece tubes allow a ±5 diopter adjustment which is pretty standard.

How is Eleshop's aftersales support?

[ftg]

...

I got the Black Edition from Eleshop.EU and it's fine.

Anything that you really don't like so far about that model?

btw. are the ajustment knobs closer to you or further away from you?
From what I saw, the SM-4TP model has knobs further away from you and SM4-NTP knobs are closer to you.

Oh, and did the heavy plate you received with the microscope from EleShop completely wide(r) and flat, or is the same like the ones from AmScope models?
...

The controls look like this, so you tell me if they are close or far.



The plate I got with the black edition one is not flat and has stepped sides. Kainda similar to the Amscope stand.

I would have bought the 0.5 Barlow anyway, so it being bundled with it was not an issue. And the ring light is usable.

[twist3r]

So, do you still suggest SM4-TP model (over the SM4-NTP one)?

I would if you plan to use the microscope for a while and the cost difference is minor. You will probably want to replace the eyepieces if they are 10X/20 and the 4TP's adjustments will give you more choices.

Well, I'm just an amateur. For a long time I dreamed of getting a microscope. And I'm thinking...for most people (even proffesionals), you buy a microscope once and thats it. (ofcorse if you bought the good one).  So, if thats the price for Black Edition I might go ahead and order it.
Although I don't like the fact that they force me to pay more for Black Edition because they included Led ring and Barlow lens which increased the price compared to 'white' edition. Yes, I do need some light and Barlow Lens, but I could get them somewhere else for a cheaper price.

And btw. even the price for Black Edition is something I could 'swallow'. But for me, that price is not the final one, because the courier that would bring me the microscope from Germany to my country would charge me at least 150 Euros extra at the top of the price I payed for microscope. So its not ~ 650 but most likely 650+150= 800 euros, at least.

btw. the microscope that I'm looking at, is not an AmScope, but probably a clone of AmScope.
The brand is Elezoom, and it has the same model name as AmScope (maybe it is being made in the same factory?)

Their SM4-TP looked reasonable, although I quickly spotted a bit of obvious cost cutting in their assembly video, that the vertical post the head slides on to could be longer, and that you need a tool to fix the eyepieces in their tubes and the head-and-cradle to the end of the boom stand. I also wonder where they might use copper compression rings. The assembler appears to mount the base backwards.  I would think the curved side should be toward the microscope and the thick, rectangular counterweight away from it: so that they can do their jobs.

The SM4-TP datasheet states the eyepiece tubes allow a ±5 diopter adjustment which is pretty standard.

Can you share the assembly video link, please?
And is tha toll for fixing eyepieces cheap and easy to be found and order?

How is Eleshop's aftersales support?

Honestly I don't know. I bought an Atten ST-862D Hot air station from them. I only tried to 'desolder' some chip from pc memory modul. And since then I wasn't using it. I think I heard good reviews about EleShop at the time I was about to order that hot air station.

But I'm thinking to order it from Welecron, which is Germany based company. Couple years ago I bought a Korad KA3005P+ Benchtop Power Supply from them. And it works good. So, no complain there, so far. Also, at the time of ordering I heard good things about Welectron, here on forum and over PM.
The topic was here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/korad-ka3005p-(from-welectron)/

btw. are the ajustment knobs closer to you or further away from you?

From what I saw, the SM-4TP model has knobs further away from you and SM4-NTP knobs are closer to you.

The controls look like this, so you tell me if they are close or far.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Yea, that looks like SM-4TP model, because the knobs are further away from you, compared to the ones on SM-4NTP model.
At least thats how it looks like when you observe the photos of both models.

[jfiresto]

You can enjoy a good microscope for many years if not decades. My father used his Nikon SMZ-2T, a lot, for 25 years and it is still going strong. It is, however, white which was the usual color for stereo microscopes when it was made.

The video is toward the bottom of the eshop page you linked to. The tool could be a hex (Imbus) driver. I might confirm that Eleshop includes it.

I asked about Eleshop's support as sometimes you get a "Monday" microscope and need to send something back. Servicing low cost microscopes often needs factory tools and fixtures. I have an old photoadapter that goes out of alignment because Motic was too cheap to tap a hole and use a long setscrew – what I will retrofit to realign the adapter while using it, and keep it aligned.

[ftg]

Eleshop did include all the tools required for assembling the microscope with the Black Edition I got.
I would expect them to do the same with the others as well.
I considered getting the Barlow lens from elsewhere, but I did not want to risk any combability issues.

[twist3r]

I asked about Eleshop's support as sometimes you get a "Monday" microscope and need to send something back. Servicing low cost microscopes often needs factory tools and fixtures. I have an old photoadapter that goes out of alignment because Motic was too cheap to tap a hole and use a long setscrew – what I will retrofit to realign the adapter while using it, and keep it aligned.

Yes, it would be very bad to have something bought and at the same time not workng as it should, so I hope that 'Monday' microscope is not gonna be the one that I might get.

Eleshop did include all the tools required for assembling the microscope with the Black Edition I got.
I would expect them to do the same with the others as well.
I considered getting the Barlow lens from elsewhere, but I did not want to risk any combability issues.

Do you remember what courier EleShop used to send the Microscope to Finland? I was advised to ask sellers not to use DHL express, but instead DHL parcel, becaues DHL Express do not want to bring the packages to P.O. Boxes in Germany.

[jfiresto]

Do you remember what courier EleShop used to send the Microscope to Finland? I was advised to ask sellers not to use DHL express, but instead DHL parcel, because DHL Express do not want to bring the packages to P.O. Boxes in Germany.

Some days, DHL Express does not want to bring anything. They were late entering a crowded market, but at the time they said they would still make it profitable. Cost Cutting Express might be a better name – their costs, not yours.

[jfiresto]

A little cost cutting in a money back guarantee:

DHL will, upon the customer's request and subject to the restrictions described below, provide a credit or a refund of the premium, including the applicable share of fuel, paid by the customer for a DHL Express shipment that is delivered later than DHL's quoted delivery commitment
...
B. The Guarantee applies to the premium, including a corresponding share of fuel surcharge, over and above the customer’s price for a standard end of day service....