Author Topic: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results  (Read 36531 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tarloth

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Country: ar
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2018, 08:47:10 pm »
It makes me happy that you have been able to solve the issue since "thermistor condenser" costs just cents :-).
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3651
  • Country: us
  • NW0LF
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2018, 09:31:05 pm »
It makes me happy that you have been able to solve the issue since "thermistor condenser" costs just cents :-).

Me too.  Came to $13.67 as the order was under $25 for the free shipping so I had to pay $6.  Cheaper than a new wand, that's for sure.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline Tarloth

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Country: ar
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2018, 09:43:06 pm »
If they send you the connector for the back of the tips that is inside the handle can you take some photographs? Probably I need to made one  ;)
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3651
  • Country: us
  • NW0LF
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2018, 10:21:04 pm »
If they send you the connector for the back of the tips that is inside the handle can you take some photographs? Probably I need to made one  ;)

The part number is for the connector with the thermistor.  When it comes in, I can take pictures and post them.  Not sure when it will be here.  I just paid for it about an hour and a half ago.  It should go out today, but Mrs GreyWoolfe and I are leaving early Saturday for vacation for a week.  That will place things on hold for awhile. 
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2018, 01:58:29 pm »
Glad it was something simple, and you'll soon have it fixed.  :-+

And enjoy your vacation.  :)
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3651
  • Country: us
  • NW0LF
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #105 on: October 07, 2018, 01:55:39 am »
Glad it was something simple, and you'll soon have it fixed.  :-+

And enjoy your vacation.  :)

Turned out not so simple and a PITA to boot.  The connector came in, I replaced the connector and still saw the error.  I put it aside for awhile and revisited it today.  Turns out the thermistor wasn't the issue.  I did a better job of measuring the resistance of the thermistors in the bad wand, the good wand and the new connector.  All read Meg Ohms of resistance.  It was the LED in the wand that was burned out.  Took quite a bit of effort with my big old woolfe paws to remove/replace the LED and rewire the connector.  The LED is no where near as bright as the one in the extra wand that I bought but there is no errors and it is working as it should.  On top of that, since I never really paid attention to the LED in the wand before, I tried a white and still got the error.  I tried green for good and once I figured out the polarity, just rigging it up, it worked.  Turns out the original LED is red.  That is another thing.  LEDs have the flat spot so you know the polarity.  Not this one.  The flat side was in between the 2 leads.  Anyway, I am a happy Woolfe.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline Tarloth

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Country: ar
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #106 on: October 07, 2018, 06:22:52 am »
Bravo! But the FX-951 manage the LED on/off when it's warming or simply put in ON state always? Thanks for all of this information!
 

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4228
  • Country: au
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #107 on: October 07, 2018, 08:00:13 am »
Good to know you got it going again, so you probably shorted the pin with the LED on it to the iron supply. Just found this here on the forums.

Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #108 on: October 07, 2018, 10:27:12 am »
Turned out not so simple and a PITA to boot.  The connector came in, I replaced the connector and still saw the error.  I put it aside for awhile and revisited it today.  Turns out the thermistor wasn't the issue.  I did a better job of measuring the resistance of the thermistors in the bad wand, the good wand and the new connector.  All read Meg Ohms of resistance.  It was the LED in the wand that was burned out.  Took quite a bit of effort with my big old woolfe paws to remove/replace the LED and rewire the connector.  The LED is no where near as bright as the one in the extra wand that I bought but there is no errors and it is working as it should.  On top of that, since I never really paid attention to the LED in the wand before, I tried a white and still got the error.  I tried green for good and once I figured out the polarity, just rigging it up, it worked.  Turns out the original LED is red.  That is another thing.  LEDs have the flat spot so you know the polarity.  Not this one.  The flat side was in between the 2 leads.  Anyway, I am a happy Woolfe.
Glad you got it working again.  :-+

They updated the handle minus the red LED (yellow plastic ring), and gave it a new P/N (FM-2028).
 

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4228
  • Country: au
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #109 on: October 07, 2018, 11:51:16 am »
They updated the handle minus the red LED (yellow plastic ring), and gave it a new P/N (FM-2028).

As far as I'm aware the 2027/2028 is a regional difference the same as the T12 vs T15 tips or the different colors of FX-888 and FX-888D.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3651
  • Country: us
  • NW0LF
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #110 on: October 07, 2018, 12:24:33 pm »
Good to know you got it going again, so you probably shorted the pin with the LED on it to the iron supply. Just found this here on the forums.



What is missing out of this diagram is the LED that is connected to a blue wire and and soldered to the same pin as the black wire.  Some sort of pass/fail for the iron-good tip, LED lights and a good signal is sent, bad tip, LED doesn't light and no signal sent.  With the LED blown, it was in a constant state of fail. The tip I received with the wand I bought with the 2 power supplies turned out to be defective and the LED didn't light.  The blue wire is pin 6 on the connector.

Glad you got it working again.  :-+

They updated the handle minus the red LED (yellow plastic ring), and gave it a new P/N
[/quote]

Makes you wonder if there were issues with the LED failing and so it was removed.  Hmmmmmm.

Shock, between your diagram and my little bit of information, hopefully this will provide a start for anyone troubleshooting a C-E error on an FX-951 with the FM-2027 wand.

EDIT: OK, maybe I am wrong on this.  No tip/bad tip is an S-E error.  I still think is it some sort of pass/fail.  It might be that the connection between the black wire (ground) and the blue wire through the LED provides some sort of feedback loop that a good wand is inserted into the power supply.  Bad LED, no feedback  loop.  The power supply then sees a defective wand. Also, I apparently wasn't really paying attention as the LED will light without a tip in the wand.

I should have been paying better attention to details.  Sometimes, I am NOT smarter than a 5th grader.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 12:45:50 pm by GreyWoolfe »
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Online Shock

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4228
  • Country: au
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2018, 02:16:44 pm »
C-E Connector Cord Error
S-E Sensor or Heater

I think that diagram came from another station but it's going to be a similar scenario. I checked the FM-203 manual it has a bit more details than the FX-951 on the FM2027 iron.

But yeah it will make it easier for the next person for sure.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline Tarloth

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Country: ar
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #112 on: October 07, 2018, 05:50:00 pm »
As far as I read, the Fm-2027 and the FM-2028 differ fairly in the existence and handling of the LED, in the FX-951 the 2027 turns on the LED but does not show the activity of the soldering iron while in the Fm-20X yes. Incidentally, I think it is a backward step, it is preferable the LED to the buzzer!

https://www.hakko.com/english/maintenance/topic_fm_fx_series01.html
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3651
  • Country: us
  • NW0LF
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2018, 11:51:12 pm »
Nice find on that link.  i have bookmarked it for reference.That would explain why the light in the wand is lit without a tip in the FX-951.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline stj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2155
  • Country: gb
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2018, 09:58:25 am »
the led was not intended for the FX951 afaik,
in the station it's intended for, it indicates the iron is up to temp i think.

it's a nice idea, i thought about putting an led and dropper resistor in parallel with the element in older irons once - to save looking down at the led on the base.
 

Offline Tarloth

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Country: ar
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2018, 02:49:50 pm »
Quote from: stj

it's a nice idea, i thought about putting an led and dropper resistor in parallel with the element in older irons once - to save looking down at the led on the base.


Yes, I agree, it's more practical a light in the visual field than a buzzer or a light in the base station.
 

Offline leStoppe

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: in
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2021, 11:13:12 am »
Tested on the tip sensor, the set temp of the Bakon measured 323C. The hakko 314C. Swapped between each iron repeatedly until I was satisfied these readings were repeatable. These readings were rock solid, change of only 1 degree max between measurements.

I understood the intent of this test, basically it's testing how well each iron type can hold temperature with changing thermal mass. The T12 cartridge with a tighter sensor/heater coupling was expected to hold it better but @KL27x 's data suggests otherwise.

Could we do the test again, but in reverse? i.e. Set the tip temperatures to the same value and then see how much it drops to when brought in contact with the heatsink. My reasoning is:

A PID control would increase the power delivered to minimize the error from setpoint. This way the error (measured temp vs set point temp) would be same between setups. Whichever tool can deliver power better would show less temperature drop.
 

Offline KL27xTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4108
  • Country: us
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2021, 04:34:51 am »
The T12 tip with the sensor-coupling error is expected to do worse. And it does.
If set to the same temp, the T12 clones will sag more. It's the same thing, no matter if you look at it from the top or the bottom.

That's the problem with the cheap T12 clones. At least the two I have do no error correction. Without any attempt to do that, there's no way a T12 iron can match the temperature control of an old 888 iron. I'm curious if the more expensive offbrand/clones makes any attempt to perform error correction, even?

If you want a good iron, don't believe BS marketing hype. If you don't solder a lot, then I guess you can choose to believe w/e you want, and it won't hurt you.

 

Offline leStoppe

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: in
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2021, 11:40:18 am »
The T12 tip with the sensor-coupling error is expected to do worse. And it does.
I didn't understand this, shouldn't the T12 have better coupling and therefore reduced error?

That's the problem with the cheap T12 clones. At least the two I have do no error correction. Without any attempt to do that, there's no way a T12 iron can match the temperature control of an old 888 iron.

Are you referring to the calibration in the station. I'm not following the hype but I'm curious because I've designed and built an 888D style station, gathering a lot of char data in the process. I don't have any data on the T12s though.
 

Offline Hohn

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
  • Country: us
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2021, 07:49:00 pm »
Let's back up a second to ponder what this test actually shows. It is showing that two different irons require slightly different *set* temperatures to attain an equilibrium temperature on the double sided heat sink of approximately 200C. Nothing less, and nothing more.

This could of course just be a simple calibration issue as each tip temperature. Contrary to KL27x's assertion, the actual calibration of each station matters because the energy delivery is directly a function of the temperature delta. The hotter tip temp (actual temp, not displayed point) holds more heat (thermal mass). But more importantly, it determines the forcible power delivered to the heating element by the controller logic. Basic PID thinking shows that you can't get a 60w station or iron to use all 60w to recover from just a 10 or 20 degree temperature drop.

Incidentally, this flaw of relying on set temperature was present in Dave's testing also.

What I have learned from a lot of testing is this: at low temperature setpoints, the station itself matters almost zero because there isn't enough temperature difference to place much load on the station at all. In Dave's testing, the 240C set point is probably < 10w of actual forcible power dissipation.

You can't prove a powerlifter is stronger than me just asking us both to lift 10kg. If we're both capable, it only proves we're both sufficient and says nothing of our relative capacity.

So a long as we are operating with thermal loads well below the ultimate capacity of two test specimens, the station power doesn't matter even a little.

So what does matter?

The single most important element of thermal performance is the plating thickness of the tip. A more durable tip with thicker iron over copper has worse thermal performance. This is significant enough that JBC actually makes two different series of tip, one is "high performance" (i.e. thin plating) and the other is "enhanced durability" (i.e. thicker plating). Hakko is well-known to favor durability and has rather thick plating and thus less thermal performance than knock-off T12/T15 tips might have.

Copper is 4.5x-7x more thermally conductive than iron (386w/m*K vs 55-80). The thickness of that plating and that amount of reduced conductivity is VERY significant.

The plating thickness actually matters more than the overall heat capacity of the tip itself because it determines how quickly heat can flow out. A thicker plating not only lasts longer but creates the illusion of more heat capacity because it slows the heat flow out. It like the illusion of having a larger gas tank just because you limit the throttle to 50%.

If plating thicknesses are the same, then the overall heat capacity of the tip matters next.

Notice, we haven't yet gotten to whether the tip is cartridge, RF or slip-over-ceramic-heater because up to this point, it doesn't matter. Until and unless you are draining the thermal reservoir that is the tip (through the restriction of its plating) then the ability to replenish the reservoir doesn't matter. You'll always have enough "water."


There differences in pure thermal performance between most irons can be  offset by just setting the poorer performer slightly hotter to get about the same forcible thermal dissipation. They are meaningless. SO the hakko needs to be at 330C to perform like the JBC at 310C. Does that matter? Not in my world.

Which means the appeal of a T12 has almost nothing to do with "superior" thermal performance. Rather, it's a smaller, lighter handpiece that's shorter and easier to use and that doesn't get nearly as hot as the ceramic element heaters (like the 888) will get in your hand.

I'll be getting an FX-601 soon enough. I can guarantee you that even at only 65w, I will be able to show that the T19 tips "outperform" an 80w 888 with T18s under some conditions. More mass, more capacity, same plating thickness. I'll be buying it just for that 6.5mm chisel that has no counterpart in the T12/T15 range.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6421
  • Country: ca
  • Non-expert
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #120 on: July 29, 2021, 12:26:36 am »
T15-D52 would be the closest chisel tip at 5.2mm. You could look at some of the large knife tips as well.
Or the super wide style: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000179733134.html

I measured the metcal plating thickness of 0.3mm here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/metcal-sttc-soldering-cartridgetip-teardown/msg3553345/#msg3553345
But that was total thickness, and the iron thickness would be thinner at the tip.
The thing is unless I destroy a new tip its going to be hard to determine plating thickness. I'll see if I can do a T12 at some point.

I'm not sure I totally buy the theory as an almost dead tip would then perform significantly better than a new tip.
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 

Offline KL27xTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4108
  • Country: us
Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2021, 10:30:46 pm »
The T12 tip with the sensor-coupling error is expected to do worse. And it does.
I didn't understand this, shouldn't the T12 have better coupling and therefore reduced error?

That's the problem with the cheap T12 clones. At least the two I have do no error correction. Without any attempt to do that, there's no way a T12 iron can match the temperature control of an old 888 iron.

Are you referring to the calibration in the station. I'm not following the hype but I'm curious because I've designed and built an 888D style station, gathering a lot of char data in the process. I don't have any data on the T12s though.

In the T12 iron, the heater is the sensor. So the sensor is unable to sense the temperature of the tip with any accuracy. Not directly. It senses the temperature of the heater.

You can make an analogy with a toaster. You have some red hot coils heating the toast. Then the toast is the thing that must be hot enough to melt the butter. So in the 888 type iron, the temp sensor is on the toast. When the toast reaches butter-melting temp, it shuts off the heater. When that big slab of toast starts to cool a degree, then the heater turns back on. Keeping the toast the right temp.

In the T12 iron, the temp sensor is placed on the nichrome wires. So the nichrome wires will reach butter melting temp in 2 seconds. But the toast isn't hot yet.

This has nothing to do with calibration.

For a T12 iron to have accurate temperature control, it needs error correction for the sensor-heater coupling. And the cheaper clones don't do this. So they sag when under load. The more cold butter you pour on the toast, the more the toast drops in temp. But the heater wires are still red hot and are not as affected. The more load, the more sag. But on the plus side, the cartridge tip design allows for high power output without warming up the handle very much.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 10:52:46 pm by KL27x »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf